Jimquisition: Mass Effect 3: A Gay Erotic Love Story

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Therumancer:
The problem with Jim's rant, is that I think he's characterizing the majority of the opposition entirely wrong, which kind of ruins what otherwise might have been a pretty impressive way of making a counter arguement about it's ridiculousness. But then again one of the problems with the left wing and those defending left wing issues is that they tend to create an image of the enemy in their own mind, and beat up straw men, without ever dealing with the actual issues.. and that's one of the reasons the US at least remains so polarized despite the left wing blowing it's own horn and trying to act like it represents a massive, clear majority when it doesn't (which is an issue well beyond this)

There is an irony in you accusing me of being left wing, and thus inventing an enemy in my head.

Because I am not left wing. I am a centrist.

So ... maybe not rely on that strawman too heavily!

Jimothy Sterling:
I understand some of you complained about not seeing the point in this video. I had thought the point was perfectly clear, but the camera was aimed too high to get my penis in shot. Sorry, I really screwed the shot up.

Despite my initial hesitation, I earnestly received your message loud and clear. You handled the debate emphallically [sic] and delivered unto me your position with much vigor. Despite it being a plonker of a debate for many tightly corseted boys hiding in the closet, you handled it with sensuality, much befitting the quivering breathes of the internet.

Heaven's Guardian:

DressedInRags:

Heaven's Guardian:
Not that it wasn't funny, but it really was a strawman argument; I think we've had enough threads about this already, but most of the objections are about canonical authenticity and over when gay relationships were introduced.

What, so if a strait femshep decides to bat for the other team in the second installment, that's acceptable?

But when a male Shepard does it, then OMG CONTINUITY FUCKUP?

That makes no sense to me.Is femshep allowed to get away with it because they're more used to seeing girls go both ways in their porn? Has no-body told these people that men can be casually bisexual as well?

Did you play the first game at all? You do know that there was a lesbian option in the first game, right? There aren't continuity issues there. If you were referring to the ability to change your mind between games, you can't even do it in that direction; you can't start a new relationship with Liara in LotSB. And if the developers really felt the need to introduce a gay option to make a character casually bisexual when Shepard, with one exception, can't have casual sex at all, that seems like an epically poor decision, since it cannot be an action that Shepard takes in-game. So your objection is moot, and as a side note, you really should learn your homonyms.

In regards to the lesbian option, I did know it was there. I specifically mentioned that fact in my post.

I never said there were continuity issues. I was trying to criticise the outlook of the people who do think that. - because it's a criticism that makes very little, if any, sense.

Ok, wait, lemme try to work this out: first of all, what's this "direction" are you referring to? second of all, what in god's name is LotSB? What on earth do the intricacies of Shepard's potential relationship with Liara have to do with the way he/she approaches others and why should it have any impact on Shepard's later options?

If Shepard wasn't exactly known for the odd casual fuck before, how on earth does that mean that the possibility of bi/homosexuality should never be opened up? It's not like they're retroactively declaring anything about people's established characters, because this is a series in which you have a choice.

It's not like anyone's Shepard is now canonically gay, they've just made it a possibility - which is, y'know, fairly different...

Let's take my first Shepard: he had sex with Liara in the first game, but never did anything more. What if, during ME3, I want to make it possible for my Shepard to come out of the closet of self-denial and admit he's not really into alien space vaginas? Or what if I want to go with the option of "I swing both ways, so I'm totally down with this"?

Or what if I want him to remain straight? Is my Shepard going to have a cluster of sweaty man-parts foisted on him? No, of course not. So it's not like Bioware are fucking with anyone's established canon unless the players in question want it to go down that way.

I fail to see how your argument holds up, unless Bioware recently declared that they removed the option of "no cock for me thanks, I'm not gay" from player choices and have forced everybody's Shepard into loving guys.

Female Shepard could go muff-diving with Liara, but what if she later decided she wanted some sweet Drell lovin'? would that be screwing up established canon?

Rainboq:

DressedInRags:

Heaven's Guardian:
Not that it wasn't funny, but it really was a strawman argument; I think we've had enough threads about this already, but most of the objections are about canonical authenticity and over when gay relationships were introduced.

What, so if a strait femshep decides to bat for the other team in the second installment, that's acceptable?

But when a male Shepard does it, then OMG CONTINUITY FUCKUP?

That makes no sense to me.Is femshep allowed to get away with it because they're more used to seeing girls go both ways in their porn? Has no-body told these people that men can be casually bisexual as well?

Pretty damned spot on, welcome to double standards.

Feels good to be here. Actually, that's a lie. It feels terribly depressing to be here.

Hey, remember that one massive whiner on the Bioware forums who's idiocy was immortalised in a few news posts? The one who shat bricks when it was suggested by dialogue in DAII that a digitally-rendered image of a fictional male he happened to be playing as in a computer game set in an imaginary fantasy land might very well be up for the possibility of some virtual man-on-man, and claimed that the amount of theoretical, optional homosex going on meant that Bioware were somehow betraying their target audience of "straight male gamers"? That same hooting dickhole went on to dismiss a female romance option in the game because she was a little bit too "exotic", and therefore could be ignored as she apparently played to the tastes of a minority, because everyone knows that "straight male gamers" only want acceptably white European women?

Can you imagine how livid this guy is going to get now that there's a little more entirely optional man-on-man in his chosen developer's releases?

Volf:

Also, your comment about history is silly, perhaps well intended, but also wrong. Just look at US prisons to see where people have become victims.

Homosexuality has never hurt anybody, but sexual abuse certianly has. Your statement carries the implication that sexual abuse is an inherent part of homosexuality and that it can therefore be blamed for this abuse. That's not exactly reasonable, is it?

As the poster you quoted said, Homosexuality in and of itself has not harmed anyone. Homosexuality and sexual abuse are two entirely different things with a tangiental link between them. Claiming that homosexuality is the sole reason for such abuse opens the door fo attacks on all straight men on the bases of those that have committed rape.

Volf:
yeah its completely a "hissy fit" if you are uncomfortable doing something that isn't part of your sexuality. /sarcasm

Except he wasn't being asked to do something that wasn't a part of his sexuality. He was being asked to pretend to do some sexuality-neutral suggestive movements in mocap in exchange for a fairly significant wage in order to make a virtual avatar that in several ways resembled him appear to do some virtual PG-13 physical affection with another virtual male within an virtual fantasy universe.

Being paid to make a significant contribution to a project that is heavily invested in and has been built from the labour and personal commitment of a large development team (many of whom probably work harder than you while earning less), only to threaten to render a significant portion of their hard work and the investment it represents completely wasted because you object to the idea of helping them make an imaginary man do stuff that makes you uncomfortable without having to do any of it yourself - that is the very definition of hissy fit

That man effectively held a huge portion of other people's money, commitment and work to ransom because he didn't want to have a part in aiding them in their portrayal of virtual gay sex on the grounds that the idea of gay sex makes him uncomfortable. In the process he could have effectively torn a holy in the game's development process despite having a fairly minor part to play in terms of overall hours of toil contributed.

If that's not petty, self-absorbed and childish, then what is?

Thyunda:
Except one is a disgusting criminal and the other is into a bit of man. And y'know what else? Law Abiding Citizen did not use Gerard Butler's likeness. It used Gerard Butler. Undeniably, inarguably, definitively Gerard Butler.
You seem to miss the distinction between playing a character you don't want to and having a man who kinda looks like you make some G-rated, fade-to-black man love.

No, the point is that they would have changed his character in the movie he agreed to be in without letting him know. It would be the same as his character suddenly turned into the one from The Ugly Truth or The Bounty Hunter or PS, I Love You.

goliath6711:

Thyunda:
Except one is a disgusting criminal and the other is into a bit of man. And y'know what else? Law Abiding Citizen did not use Gerard Butler's likeness. It used Gerard Butler. Undeniably, inarguably, definitively Gerard Butler.
You seem to miss the distinction between playing a character you don't want to and having a man who kinda looks like you make some G-rated, fade-to-black man love.

No, the point is that they would have changed his character in the movie he agreed to be in without letting him know. It would be the same as his character suddenly turned into the one from The Ugly Truth or The Bounty Hunter or PS, I Love You.

Except in Mass Effect the guy knew what was going on. He was just being childish.

Thank God for the variety of sexual orientations in Mass Effect.
-Oh, and for the Jimquisition too.

Okay, general question. What would be the feeling if one of the romance options was married? And I mean happily married with a still living spouse and child/children that they were eagerly awaiting to return home to until Shepard came along and decided to knowingly screw that up.

Its kinda silly that in ME3/Books fans rage that Shepard is gay, but in SWTOR same sex relationships seems to be by far the main thing fans want. (In the Q&As) Obviously they're not all the same people but still.

does anyone else think Jim is the erotic novelist version of Garth Marenghi? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXBBGjUjy2c

goliath6711:
Okay, general question. What would be the feeling if one of the romance options was married? And I mean happily married with a still living spouse and child/children that they were eagerly awaiting to return home to until Shepard came along and decided to knowingly screw that up.

Well, MY Shepard isn't a homewrecker!
But to each their own. I wouldn't deny anyone's right to do this. You know, if the OTHER set of pixels wants to cheat on their partner with Shepard. I don't feel forced to do anything I don't want to.
Not my job to question YOUR moral choices.
I wouldn't do it. You might.

Loethlin:

goliath6711:
Okay, general question. What would be the feeling if one of the romance options was married? And I mean happily married with a still living spouse and child/children that they were eagerly awaiting to return home to until Shepard came along and decided to knowingly screw that up.

Well, MY Shepard isn't a homewrecker!
But to each their own. I wouldn't deny anyone's right to do this. You know, if the OTHER set of pixels wants to cheat on their partner with Shepard. I don't feel forced to do anything I don't want to.
Not my job to question YOUR moral choices.
I wouldn't do it. You might.

I'm not saying I would. I was just generally asking "What would you do?"

Orekoya:

secretsantaone:
Is it really worth it if it's cheapened? Surely it would be better to finish off this franchise and start a new one with a homosexual character, rather than shoe-horning it in so late. To me it just seems patronising, like 'here's your token gay relationship, now leave us alone.'.

On the issue of resources spent, let's have a look different at what different elements go into a videogame.

Writing - Someone has to write the romance, which characters, how it progresses, how it ends up etc.

Dialogue writing - After that, the dialogue between the characters needs to be written including multiple speech trees and paths for different conversation choices

Voice acting - Then they need to get the voice actors in to record the lines and the sound editors to get it into a fit state

Animation - Someone needs to animate the romance scenes, including a presumably unique sex scene which uses no stock animations

Coding - After that, someone needs to actually put all the different elements into the game and not have it clash with everything else

Quality control - The romance needs to be played through multiple times under different conditions to make sure there are no bugs or errors

So probably quite a bit of time I'd imagine.

This argument is so board it's pointless to even list this. I could take everything you just said and use for any argument from "Here's why they shouldn't allow any romance options" to "Here's why they shouldn't allow moral choices".

In order to have this in, it had to be planned. Back when the game was first starting, and since its elements were planned in the first one it's been in the planning since at least 2006. Nothing about Shepard beyond the actual romance dialogue trees ever seemed to say out loud what his sexual preference was, because it was always left up to the player's choice. Saying that they cheapened it and made it token seems belittling to said choice.

Except moral choices have been a hallmark of the series and it's something all players will experience, while the heterosexual relationships already exist.

Does it matter if they originally wanted to put it in? They didn't and the series has moved on, meaning that a lot of the planned writing from the first game won't make sense. Why bring in something that only a minority of people will see this late?

I don't understand the whole point of this. Does Mass Effect 3 force your avatar to have a homosexual relationship?

To me, I just wasted 8 minutes of my day listening to disturbing homosexual porn.

Xanthious:

That being said I can understand people not being keen on there being man on man lovin' in ME3. I just can't imagine anyone sitting around playing the first two and thinking to themselves "Ya know this is a pretty good game but dammit all if it wouldn't just be about perfect if I could just bugger the Hell out of Garrus".

You clearly have spent no time on the (woman-centric) gaming comms on LJ, I see.

Trust me, a LOT more people than you think sit around thinking just those things. I actually had a little chuckle when I read that line, and went, "Aww, how cute. This guy has NO idea." XD

goliath6711:
I'm not saying I would. I was just generally asking "What would you do?"

I wouldn't let my Shep get involved with a cheater. This is me answering your question. :)
But, I wouldn't be trying to force this point of view on others. I'm not saying you are, please, don't take it like this. I'm trying to say, I'm only in the position to decide for myself and my Shepard. Definitely not in the position of telling people on the internet how to feel about this sort of thing, make a big drama and throw hissyfits, like some people are doing right now. :)

yeah_so_no:
You clearly have spent no time on the (woman-centric) gaming comms on LJ, I see.

Don't be like that! It's not "woman-centric" but "fanfiction-centric".
There are guys who write fanfiction. Not too many of them, but they do exist. Surprisingly, the percentage in ME fandom is much bigger than the others, such as Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings.
Most of them write femslash, too. What. A. Shocker. /sarcasm.

Bara_no_Hime:
Actually, it isn't Bioware's fault. They tried to have homosexual options in ME1 (the code is still in there, half done) but the guy who did the motion capture for Male Shep (some sort of Underwear model, I believe?) threw a hissy fit about anything "gay" being associated with him and threatened to not let them use his face for Shepard if they made it possible for Male Shep to be gay.

Unable to have gay Male Shep, Bioware removed Ashley from Femshep's options to make things fair.

They tried again in ME2 (again, the options are in the code, but unfinished) but hit the same wall from Mr. Underpants model.

However, since ME3 is the last game with Shepard in it, they no longer have to give a fuck about pissing Mr. Underpants off. Hence the gay options in ME3.

Is that what happened? Oh BOO~. I had been wondering why they completely avoided a gay male option in ME when it was hoo-yay all over the place in DA (...even though I'm still kinda mad I can't romance Alistair with my male elf mage. Alistair likes him so much it's almost off the scale, and yet, lol).

I'm glad they're adding the options they originally were going to with this last game.

OT, I was cracking up watching this. Good show, Jim, good show.

Loethlin:

Don't be like that! It's not "woman-centric" but "fanfiction-centric".
There are guys who write fanfiction. Not too many of them, but they do exist. Surprisingly, the percentage in ME fandom is much bigger than the others, such as Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings.
Most of them write femslash, too. What. A. Shocker. /sarcasm.

Ahaha, I'm not actually talking about the fanfic comms; I'm talking about the plain-ol' gaming comms (they exist!) Slash writers aren't the only woman who like imagining guys romancing other guys.

And color me shocked femslash gets a pass that regular slash doesn't.

Oh no, why am I blushing?

Let me get this straight:
-Fucking aliens from a completely different planet: Fine.
-Fucking your "same sex" (as if that meant anything in a world where fucking aliens is normal): Mischaracterization.
Makes perfect sense.

Not knowing much about the ME franchise, I would have assumed if you had no qualms about fucking aliens, you pretty much had no qualms about fucking anything else.

yeah_so_no:
Ahaha, I'm not actually talking about the fanfic comms; I'm talking about the plain-ol' gaming comms (they exist!) Slash writers aren't the only woman who like imagining guys romancing other guys.

And color me shocked femslash gets a pass that regular slash doesn't.

Oh. Right. Well, I apologise for assuming you meant fic comms. Thanks for reminding me, then, why I'm not visiting girly gaming comms despite being a woman myself.

Femslash gets a pass because guys think two girls together are hot, without threatening their sexuality. Not the case with slash. Or on this case, gay!Shep.
It gets a pass from women because they're more open-minded about the idea. Do not confuse this with me saying "women are bi from the get-go". They aren't and this is not what I'm saying.

you are a sick sick man jim... sick sick man...

ActuaLOL. Very good video. I've been romancing Liara for a long time now so I feel like I should see that through in ME3. However, when I start again from Mass Effect 1, my golly is Garrus going to get it. Hard and fast in that weird face of his.

Not to single anyone out but if you decide to watch a video with the words "gay" and "erotic" in the title, you don't get to complain when the content is gay and erotic.

Loethlin:

yeah_so_no:
Ahaha, I'm not actually talking about the fanfic comms; I'm talking about the plain-ol' gaming comms (they exist!) Slash writers aren't the only woman who like imagining guys romancing other guys.

And color me shocked femslash gets a pass that regular slash doesn't.

Oh. Right. Well, I apologise for assuming you meant fic comms. Thanks for reminding me, then, why I'm not visiting girly gaming comms despite being a woman myself.

Femslash gets a pass because guys think two girls together are hot, without threatening their sexuality. Not the case with slash. Or on this case, gay!Shep.
It gets a pass from women because they're more open-minded about the idea. Do not confuse this with me saying "women are bi from the get-go". They aren't and this is not what I'm saying.

Oh lord, please don't pull the "I'm not like THOSE stupid girly gamers UGH, I'M ONE OF THE BOYSSS!!" card, please. Just...no. There is no call to bash other women players, especially not for being ~girly or whatev. You don't get points for that, and can we just not? There is no ONE TRUE WAY to "acceptably" be a woman who games, nor is there anything wrong with quote-unquote girliness (and not even to touch the implications of internalized misogyny that comes as baggage with the belittling of something as being feminine). Just, no. No.

And no, I did not confuse it with you saying "women are bi;" I was unshocked because for a lot a men, lesbians are HAWT but gay men are icky, thus, femslsh is OK and regular slash is not. We were kind of on the same page, there. :/

SajuukKhar:

xXxJessicaxXx:
No they aren't, otherwise there wouldn't be rules about putting such things in games. It isn't illegal to show homosexuality.

You are aware rules and laws are constantly changing and altering to the current norm and that just because RIGHT NOW there is a rule about it =/= it is necessarily "right"?

there were once laws saying people could be enslaved
there were once rules saying women weren't people
etc. etc.
and they all changed

Not that I want that stuff in game myself, I am just pointing that out.

...You picked a bad example with that, because guess what? Pederasty and child abuse USED to be legal. It used to be legal for a grown man to marry a ten-year-old girl and consummate their marriage. Then, we realized, oh wow, that's kinda NOT OK, and laws against it came into being.

There is a very big difference between depictions of a consensual sexual relationship and rape. And make no mistake, you are calling for games to depict child RAPE, because children are unable to consent, which makes any depiction of a sexual "relationship" involving a child a depiction of RAPE.

There are games for that. Go import and play one of those if you want a rape option so badly.

yeah_so_no:
Oh lord, please don't pull the "I'm not like THOSE stupid girly gamers UGH, I'M ONE OF THE BOYSSS!!" card, please. Just...no. There is no call to bash other women players, especially not for being ~girly or whatev. You don't get points for that, and can we just not? There is no ONE TRUE WAY to "acceptably" be a woman who games, nor is there anything wrong with quote-unquote girliness (and not even to touch the implications of internalized misogyny that comes as baggage with the belittling of something as being feminine). Just, no. No.

What? Ok, this is going really badly, I didn't mean it like that. I'm not criticising anybody. I'm not claiming to be a "tomboy", either. You might've noticed I haven't said a single harsh word in the "girly girl" gamer's direction. All I said it that it's not my style and I don't feel comfortable in such communities therefore I do not visit.

And no, I did not confuse it with you saying "women are bi;" I was unshocked because for a lot a men, lesbians are HAWT but gay men are icky, thus, femslsh is OK and regular slash is not. We were kind of on the same page, there. :/

Glad we agree on this. This bi women thing was an attempt to clarify. See what happened when I didn't clarify? You thought I'm being offensive when I wasn't trying to be.

Watched first 2 mins of vid, saw it wasn't gonna be my thing (i got my own fantasies, don't need to hear that of others tyvm) but figured I could guess the general point Jim was trying to make with the vid based on the recent gay mass effect threads.

Based on the comments, seems I was mostly right.

secretsantaone:

Orekoya:

secretsantaone:
Is it really worth it if it's cheapened? Surely it would be better to finish off this franchise and start a new one with a homosexual character, rather than shoe-horning it in so late. To me it just seems patronising, like 'here's your token gay relationship, now leave us alone.'.

On the issue of resources spent, let's have a look different at what different elements go into a videogame.

Writing - Someone has to write the romance, which characters, how it progresses, how it ends up etc.

Dialogue writing - After that, the dialogue between the characters needs to be written including multiple speech trees and paths for different conversation choices

Voice acting - Then they need to get the voice actors in to record the lines and the sound editors to get it into a fit state

Animation - Someone needs to animate the romance scenes, including a presumably unique sex scene which uses no stock animations

Coding - After that, someone needs to actually put all the different elements into the game and not have it clash with everything else

Quality control - The romance needs to be played through multiple times under different conditions to make sure there are no bugs or errors

So probably quite a bit of time I'd imagine.

This argument is so board it's pointless to even list this. I could take everything you just said and use for any argument from "Here's why they shouldn't allow any romance options" to "Here's why they shouldn't allow moral choices".

In order to have this in, it had to be planned. Back when the game was first starting, and since its elements were planned in the first one it's been in the planning since at least 2006. Nothing about Shepard beyond the actual romance dialogue trees ever seemed to say out loud what his sexual preference was, because it was always left up to the player's choice. Saying that they cheapened it and made it token seems belittling to said choice.

Except moral choices have been a hallmark of the series and it's something all players will experience, while the heterosexual relationships already exist.

Does it matter if they originally wanted to put it in? They didn't and the series has moved on, meaning that a lot of the planned writing from the first game won't make sense. Why bring in something that only a minority of people will see this late?

Because they wanted to? Yes it matters that they originally wanted to put it in, they're the ones making it. And your argument seems to be the equivalent of saying if the relationship isn't firmly established and fulfilled by the first 2/3s of a novel series then it's shallow, cheap, and shoe-horned in. Have you ever done a male Shepard that didn't choose anyone in the first two games? Your argument of "heterosexual relationships" already exist vanishes in an instant because, as I stated, Shepard's sexual preference is not established at all outside the romance options. For anyone who's made such a Shepard (or planning to make such a Shep for the third) the romance choice they make in the third game, straight or gay, will be all the sweeter for their wait.

Thank you for this video, mister Sterling.
This is a masterpiece, a pinnacle of escapist videos excelling in both form and function.
Maybe I exaggerated a bit, but this is a very, very good episode of the Jimquisition.

I...I really don't know what to say.

SaunaKalja:
Oh no, why am I blushing?

I can feel the hot blood in my cheeks. Thank goodness I'm not at work or anything.

Arkynomicon:

Eh, I'm not afraid. I think I can handle this.

Come to think of it. Zevran was rather charming as well.

Just remember (cue ominous reverb) I WARNED YOU!

secretsantaone:

The hell does Occam's Razor have to do with anything?

The answer with the fewest extraneous steps is the most probable. I'm not sure how you fail to see the connection here, but whatever.

let alone is it some be all and end all to arguments.

Nor did I claim it was. After all, we all know invoking Godwin's Law is the end all to arguments. Not particularly in a positive way, but....

Stop saying things to seem smarter than you are.

Stop inferring things based on your inadequacies and attributing them to me.

Volf:
Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean I'm saying that heterosexuality/homosexuality=sexual crimes, it just means that a persons sexual desire/lust/preference has hurt a few people.

[citation needed]

This video is impressive on two levels. Firstly, the solid writing (I can't remember laughing so hard at a video on The Escapist), and secondly Jim's narration seals the deal. I suspect that it must've required multiple takes.

Brilliant satire, Jim!
I think we should all recommend you to pen the next Mass Effect novel. Oh, and be sure to pair the Illusive Man with Udina. Nothing else could make we fans happier, no matter what we might say to the contrary.

Ahem, spring doesn't start until march 21st.

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