No Right Answer: Best Animation Style Ever

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Firefilm:

Soviet Heavy:

RaikuFA:

Whats Dans argument? " ITS FROM JAPAN NOT AMERICA THEREFORE ITS BAD!!!"

Ah no. He even went on to explain that of the anime he has watched, he's been unimpressed. He says that he is willing to give other shows that he hasn't seen a shot. If he likes them, he likes them. If he doesn't, he doesn't.

Congratulations, Soviet Heavy, you won this week's secret contest. For standing up against the hate and reminding them that this is a comedy show, and for pointing out that I had a disclaimer at the end. Your prize is an extra week of life. When you are in your 80's, you can thank us!

Sweet! The I could rent Ultra Porn!

JoaoJatoba:
Why people suggest old animes? Beebop? Trigun? All from the last millennium. Try Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood (way better than the first release), Another (horror story), GANTZ, Tokyo Magnitude 8.0. There is sooooo much more...

Anime are more like movies than cartoon, because you have tons of "american pie" comedies, but also deeper ones like Inception. The thing is you must know which is which, and that's the hard part. The themes in eastern animations are more restricted it seems (comedy, basically).

The industry of anime in japan is not at all like cartoon industry in the US. There, they are more like Hollywood..

And newbies, stay away from the series with 500 episodes. The pace is so slow. Try smaller anime, with 13 or 26 episodes.

You should really include that GANTZ is NSFW, or atleast that it is a very Mature show

Shin Chan is great. Some of the recent American Dubs are comedy gold.

Why didn't Chris get a point for his last statement?

Dan, watch Kino's Journey. Have fun with your nightmares. I'd suggest Wolf's Rain but it's probably too deep/weird for you. You should have fun with Cowboy Bebop though. Everyone does.

Oh, quick plug for a favorite anime reviewer of mine. Go seek out Jesuotaku, (either on Blip or Thatguywiththeglasses). She'll give you a pretty good down-low on an anime you've been eyeing.

There truly can be "No Right Answer" if both parties total anime watched can be counted on hand.

Dan is completely ignorant about anime, makes poor arguments and ends up with 4 points?
Chris was pretty bad at convincing too.
Poor aguments on both sides, specially Dan.

Btw turn on CN or something and watch cartoons and you realize most of it it's crap too. Also, Pixar movies, although good, have almost all the same themes behind it. Much like Myiazaki too, maybe that's why I'm not fan of either.

And I thought this was about animation, like the low Eastern FPS vs high Western FPS, but when eastern anime puts effort into it, makes some battles so awesome that you can't watch in Westerns.

In the end most of anime is shit, like most of cartoons and most of the movies, music (and probably books), the important thing is focus on the good ones. Avatar The last Airbender, South Park, Simpsons, Futurama for example. I won't give examples of anime because I have too much of them.

Soviet Heavy:
And it seems that the anime defenders are lining up to express their outrage. Not that this was unexpected.

Seriously, can you not just take this show for what it is as a comedic argument series without getting offended that someone has a different opinion than you?

This is supposed to be comic? Where are the jokes? Where's the fun part?

I do not mind the fact that guy dislikes anime, I do mind he says ignorant things to other people like it was true. Making the watchers dumber.

What I've always found interesting is the way anime has one main style it goes with. Sure you get some variation in art style but it's always got that same basic look. Western animation has a whole lot more visual variety to it. Imagine if every western cartoon looked like it was created by Matt Groening. It'd be weird. In the west, you can pretty much tell instantly what show a character comes from, even if you've only seen a tiny bit of it. You put Charlie Brown next to Adventure Time next to Batman The Animated Series next to Invader Zim, and each one is visually distinctive. You could take a whole bunch of anime's back to back and it'd probably just look like a very random story.

Not saying it's a bad thing, but I think it's interesting.

I thought that this debate was going to be which is better purely on the merits of the animation itself. I was severely disappointed.

For the record, I prefer western animation in terms of actual animation quality. Anime is very good, but the animation tends to be a little too jerky or spastic for me. You very rarely find one that actual has the characters move like living beings instead of just speed lines and suddenly they're in a different position (although there are a few animes that feature realistic movement), which really breaks the immersion pretty badly for me.

esperandote:

CG is animation too otherwise it wouldn't contend on the oscars in the animated film category wich btw has been won mostly by western animations.

Of course, the jury is Western... And the Oscars doesn't deserve credibility, look who won the last 3 years...

Starik20X6:
What I've always found interesting is the way anime has one main style it goes with. Sure you get some variation in art style but it's always got that same basic look. Western animation has a whole lot more visual variety to it. Imagine if every western cartoon looked like it was created by Matt Groening. It'd be weird. In the west, you can pretty much tell instantly what show a character comes from, even if you've only seen a tiny bit of it. You put Charlie Brown next to Adventure Time next to Batman The Animated Series next to Invader Zim, and each one is visually distinctive. You could take a whole bunch of anime's back to back and it'd probably just look like a very random story.

Not saying it's a bad thing, but I think it's interesting.

I see your point, and tend to agree, but if you look well, you can see different styles.

Anoni Mus:

Soviet Heavy:
And it seems that the anime defenders are lining up to express their outrage. Not that this was unexpected.

Seriously, can you not just take this show for what it is as a comedic argument series without getting offended that someone has a different opinion than you?

This is supposed to be comic? Where are the jokes? Where's the fun part?

I do not mind the fact that guy dislikes anime, I do mind he says ignorant things to other people like it was true. Making the watchers dumber.

Then don't watch it! If you don't like listening to them, then ignore it.

I want Dan to list some western stuff he has seen and likes and I'll show him some Anime in the same genera that will dominate it.

I will say that most anime carry themes that are very Japanese and Japan is still one of the more closed off cultures considering how far their content spreads. This does lead to scenarios that can easily confuse westerners. Most of our themes are from old fairy tales (Der Bruder Grimm) and then the ancient epics from Greece then Rome.

Soviet Heavy:

Anoni Mus:

Soviet Heavy:
And it seems that the anime defenders are lining up to express their outrage. Not that this was unexpected.

Seriously, can you not just take this show for what it is as a comedic argument series without getting offended that someone has a different opinion than you?

This is supposed to be comic? Where are the jokes? Where's the fun part?

I do not mind the fact that guy dislikes anime, I do mind he says ignorant things to other people like it was true. Making the watchers dumber.

Then don't watch it! If you don't like listening to them, then ignore it.

Shit conversation?

I have already watched, so what can I do? And no, I don't watch this show, but today had an interesting topic.

I have to recommend Moribito: Guardian of the Spirit.

there is anime because of disney

artanis_neravar:

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:

And that's it. Apart from that, what has the Western animation stable produced of note over the last 15-20 years?

Invader Zim, Angry Beavers, Hey Arnold, Rugrats, Doug, Camp Lazlo, X-men, spiderman, etc

You know what? I'm going to sound like a total elitist douche, but I don't care. Those are all kids shows. Hey Arnold, Rugrats and Angry Beaver were all entertaining, and I had a lot of fun watching them as a kid, but that's the point. They were written for kids. Holding up Rugrats as a high point of Western animation doesn't give the genre any credit. It simply shows how little the West has been willing to invest in animation as a viable adult medium, one which can tackle serious, heavy issues. The only issues I remember from Rugrats and Hey Arnold were 'How can we skive off school today?' or 'What would happen if we hid Angelica's doll?'

X-men and Spiderman? Please. They were badly animated, poorly written shows designed purely to keep kids staring at the telly box first thing on a Saturday morning. Can you show me a single episode of Spiderman, X-Men, Rugrats or Doug which can claim to have handled the same topics as Evangelion or Revolutionary Girl Utena?

I would say the English dub of anything with Johnny Bosch, those are some pretty good Animes. You're starting with Trigun, from there I'd go to Wolf's Rain which a fair amount of fans prefer the English dub of that, infact the English opening is far more popular. One I recommend skipping, especially if you don't have the time for it is Bleach. I never got into it due to the huge amount of episodes, but it is a good series. If you like games, specifically MMOs, I suggest the .hack series. Mainly .hack//Sign and .hack//ROOTS but also get into the games, they're pretty good PS2 Roleplaying games, fairly fun action too, Haseo's weapon swapping system is real fun.

Anoni Mus:

Soviet Heavy:
And it seems that the anime defenders are lining up to express their outrage. Not that this was unexpected.

Seriously, can you not just take this show for what it is as a comedic argument series without getting offended that someone has a different opinion than you?

This is supposed to be comic? Where are the jokes? Where's the fun part?

I do not mind the fact that guy dislikes anime, I do mind he says ignorant things to other people like it was true. Making the watchers dumber.

I don't know about a cat in paris and Chico& Rita but Rango beats Kung fu panda and Puss in Boots any day, Toy story 3 totally kicked ass, i dont know about the other contenders in 2009 and in 2008 wall-e is definetely better than bolt and kung fu panda. Now that i think of the category where i agree the most in the oscars is animated feature.

Now, if we say that not enough eastern films are nominated then that i agree to.

Someone please restrain Dan and make him watch Madoka and Gurren Lagann (subbed). If that doesn't change his opinion on the wide range of things that anime can accomplish, then he's a lost cause.

All this talk of Western animation and no mention of WB's Golden Age of Cartoons?

What of 'Pinky and the Brain', 'Freakazoid' and 'Animaniacs'?

This might just be my nostalgia talking, but particularly with the old WB cartoons, I still find them hilarious to this day. They were topical, informative (The Geography Song!), and had jokes for both the kids, and adults. There's also older Disney ones like 'TailSpin', and 'Darkwing Duck', which were fantastic in my books. Again, could be enjoyed by adults. There are a few examples of western animation that is not aimed at children or families. It's French, but the film 'Resistance' is an excellent example.

On the other hand, I've watched my fair share of anime. I think part of the issue many have with it is the cultural barrier. I started off with fairly non-Japanese anime (As in, characters, settings, and culture are decidedly -not- Asian), which I believed helped with the transition. It's gotten to the point now that most cultural aspects don't phase me. These include the points Dan mentioned such as the giant robots, over-the-top fight scenes, and the school girl thing, so it might just be an adaption one has to make.

The reason for the extremes might be due to the fact animation seems to be more so accepted as an all-ages format in Japan, then in North America. Though we have cartoons such as 'The Simpsons', most I talk to assume cartoons equals children or family friendly, particularly in the realm of film. Anime on the other hand can stretch a wide range of topics, including adult themes.

The reason is that anime is not a genre, it's an art style, just like Western animation is. But unlike Western animation, does not limit itself to one audience (children), and is not limited to one topic (comedy, romance, drama, ect), because it's simply a way of animating characters. Admittedly, some genres get milked to the point the udder is dry though (Aka, Giant robots). And perhaps it's a lower bar of entry as the ratio of 'garbage to good' seems to be worse in Japanese animation, then Western.

Final word though, there certainly is good Japanese animation, just that there is also alot of crap animation too. Western animation is very similar in that you can find alot of good animation, just there seems to be less animation in general, so there's not as much trash to sort through to find the good bits.

EDIT: Oh right, gotta recccomend something...
Anime: Last Exile, Planetes, and Baccano!
Western: Everything I mentioned above!

First NRA I've started watching and stopped almost immediately after.

Western Vs Eastern animation are not comparable by quality; also, the financial gap is so vast that East will simply win by the default for having made so much more of it.

Good thing Kyle was smart enough to not participate, that crafty... no, this was not a South Park reference, I really meant he was smart enough not to participate.

The statement Dan made at the end: that is what my dad should try saying. He doesn't know I like anime, since he's been harsh towards it, but that's because the only anime he's ever seen is Pokemon back when I was a kid who was obsessed with that crap. Now, he refers to anything Japanese as "that Japanese crap." Open minds! Of course, I don't expect him to have a good opinion since he called Portal boring and A Clockwork Orange stupid...

Going by style, I think Western is more Diverse. But it's really hard to say one is better then the other when they both can look amazing in the right hands. The Miyazaki films are an amazing example of this. I thought Ponyo was... alright. Not great, but pretty good compared to a lot of things. But the artwork I felt was just beautiful and made the film much better.

And I do agree with Chris that Eastern is more adult oriented or at least has more adult-oriented (by which I don't mean XXX, but things with more mature storylines and the like). I tried thinking of something more focused on aduly audiences in Western Animation (not including CGI, though even that's not easy to think of one) and there isn't much. Especially not in terms of series. I can't think of many animated series beyond maybe South park, Family Guy, Simpsons, and that kind of thing that could be really considered aimed towards older audiences. And notice that all of those are comedies and something that 'mature' normally doesn't apply to. Especially South Park and Family Guy.

A couple good anime I think for Dan would be Trigun (Or GunXSword which is kind of smiliar, but sounds like it has stuff Dan doesn't like about Anime), FLCL (and perhaps Paranoia Agent, though I haven't seen the full series), Case Closed, and maybe YuYu Hokisho. The first two are series that aren't like Dragonball and that kind where they were made to go on and on. They had a set goal for number of episodes and stuck to it. Which means there much less padding. In fact I would say the series that you can normally buy one box set of all the episodes (normally 26 or so for an entire series) are the best. They don't worry about padding the series out for the most part and most episodes serve some purpose. I like them at least.

I was gonna get my huff on and suggest Cowboy Bebop, but the end discussion cut me short. No giant robots, no obvious exasperation sweatdrops, none of the usual tropes found about, just bounty hunters in space.

Oh, and thou shalt not dis the name of Miyazaki. The man's works might as well be proof that there's a goodness to the universe.

'No Right Answer'. This episode should have been called 'No Good Argument'. I was really intrigued to see this debated with some really good and thoughtful arguments. Boy, was I disappointed.

Lumzdas:
Watch Usagi Drop - it's an anime about a man raising a girl he adopted. One of the most heartwarming animes I have ever seen. You wont see any of your mentioned cliches and it has a beautiful artstyle.

There is another Anime I watched recently called Tokyo Magnitude 8.0. It's short like the Usagi Drop anime, but it deals with the ordeal of 2 young kids in the aftermath of an unprecedented earthquake. The reason why I quoted you to bring this up is due to it's similar "this is life" vibe. While Usagi Drop is based around themes of family values and social sacrifices, Tokyo 8.0 follows the trials, both emotional and physical, of a Brother and Sister in the event of a disaster.

It's a bit of a grind from the first 2 or 3 episodes as the lead (the Girl) is a bit of a whiner, but her angst and naivety get a brutal shock pretty early on. From what I understand of Japanese youth culture, this short seems to be well thought out and remarkably in touch.

It was done on a low budget, clearly, with a generic non-eccentric quality and no particularly noteworthy sequences. But the voice acting of the young boy and girl are well performed (in Japanese) and possibly done by proper child actors rather then squeaky voiced women, and the story, though awkwardly paced, has a rare kick to it, particularly in the latter half of the series.

As for the Topic on hand, I expected more of a technical analyses rather then a pure subjective analyses. Disappointed, but not really that surprised. Personally some of the opinions flung about could, in proper context, be used against EVERY medium/genre/sub-culture in existence.

My opinion? Everything from literature to video games and all the genres in existence, have things that are overwhelmingly dull, generic or just plain awful. But that does not diminish, for me, the gems that actually do things right and make stuff great. To dismiss something so broad entirely based on blatantly low exposure, diminishes your experience in life... everyone has their own taste and rightly so, but being open minded is a virtue this world needs to embrace.

It does not degrade you as a person to sample work made through another cultures philosophies, trends and social nuances. Some of the most intriguing games, books and films I have ever read/watched have been from a very foreign source (in style and context). I like to think I have a more enlightened view of life, as minor as it may be, by the simple act of watching/reading/playing things from wildly different origins. If that isn't true, I can definitely attest to having a much wider palette then most people I know personally.

Good anime that is subtle without any of the cliches that Dan brought up.

Phantom: Requiem for the Phantom- Great dub, very realistic,about two people forced to be assassins the main characters are only blessed with heightened survival instincts and nothing else.

Katanagatari- Samurai epic about the hunt for 12 perfected blades by a expert martial artist who can't use a sword and an unpredictable strategist who guides him. Over-the-top action when it needs to have it but a varied story that shifts between tragedy and witty banter.

Baccano!-Takes place in the 1920's with three intersecting stories about The mafia, street gangs, ditzy criminals and a group of immortals. Balances comedy with a serious tone quite well.

Grave of the Fireflies- SOOOOOOOO serious

Tiger and Bunny- About superheros competing on a game show to see who can save the most civilians while being treated like sports legends. Feels similar to Batman: The Animated Series.

Actually just watch Batman the animated series if you haven't yet. Why aren't shows like that anymore?

Two things:
1: Pixar doesn't count.
2: No late 90's/early 2000's love for the west? Where's the Genndy Tartakovsky/Bruce Timm love?

canadamus_prime:
The big "rain drop" as you call it is supposed to be a sweat drop and it usually signifies exasperation. You'd have to be an idiot not to be able to figure that out, esp. considering when it appears the character usually has an exasperated and/or annoyed expression on their face to go with it.

Imma just say:

He could also be referring to the Eva-like devices girls wear on their heads sometimes in mecha/sci-fi shows, or the similarly-shaped hair clips girls sometimes wear that are of ridiculous size.

Plus, assuming he is referring specifically to sweatdrops: considering sweatdrops are pretty isolated to anime, someone wouldn't necessarily be an "idiot" if they saw it once or twice and didn't get what it was, exactly. It's lot like real people have massive perspiration fits whenever they're annoyed (well, most of us don't). It's something you learn the significance of as you become more acclimated to the style.

And even if it wasn't, it doesn't help anyone to act so pompous just because someone didn't get a trope from a niche art style that you know more about.

Nope, Chris won. Chris won at 0:19. Everything else is just excess.

Dan, if you think Western animation is cool because of Aeon Flux, just watch Ergo Proxy. They are the same thing. I know because I haven't watched either.

I never like it when someone asks me "Do you like anime?" It's like asking "Do you like movies/books?" It's just a redundant question for me. Just like with movies and books, I like some animes and there are other animes which I don't like. The same goes for western cartoons.

Anime suggestions: Death Note is always a good one to experience. Toradora is fun, but it is predictable and very high-school-drama-ish... Um... Rurouni Kenshin is one of the older, less flawed anime to look into and I rate it very highly. I wanna say High School of the Dead, but for everything it does right, there are at least two things that it missteps and does wrong. I'd say look into a couple episodes, but it likely won't change your mind. Another one by the same guys as Death Note is Bakuman. It's a pretty simple story but it is told pretty well, if you ask me, and worth checking out. Warning, it starts out slow, but it does start getting good after a few episodes set up the overall concept.

Now... as to the argument. I love how you guys focus on Disney being the only people who have Western animations when you left out Hanna Barbara and Warner Bros. I mean, seriously! Looney Toons, Animaniacs, Scooby Doo, any DC super hero cartoon, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'd even argue that Nickelodeon's attempt to make their own anime (Avatar: The Last Airbender) is superior in quality to a vast majority of anime of I've seen). I like both anime and western animation, but I have to argue that western animation more often has better quality. It's only in recent years that I've seen the quality of anime get really damn impressive.

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:

artanis_neravar:

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:

And that's it. Apart from that, what has the Western animation stable produced of note over the last 15-20 years?

Invader Zim, Angry Beavers, Hey Arnold, Rugrats, Doug, Camp Lazlo, X-men, spiderman, etc

You know what? I'm going to sound like a total elitist douche, but I don't care. Those are all kids shows. Hey Arnold, Rugrats and Angry Beaver were all entertaining, and I had a lot of fun watching them as a kid, but that's the point. They were written for kids. Holding up Rugrats as a high point of Western animation doesn't give the genre any credit. It simply shows how little the West has been willing to invest in animation as a viable adult medium, one which can tackle serious, heavy issues. The only issues I remember from Rugrats and Hey Arnold were 'How can we skive off school today?' or 'What would happen if we hid Angelica's doll?'

X-men and Spiderman? Please. They were badly animated, poorly written shows designed purely to keep kids staring at the telly box first thing on a Saturday morning. Can you show me a single episode of Spiderman, X-Men, Rugrats or Doug which can claim to have handled the same topics as Evangelion or Revolutionary Girl Utena?

Um... how could they handle the same topics when they are in completely different realms of reality and storytelling. That's like asking us to give you an example of when Batman covered the same topic as Sonic the Hedgehog (or vice versa). They are a bit too different to really compare properly.

Let me tell you a story. Years ago when I was about 8 my dad went to the video rental store to get a movie called Spirit (I think it was about a horse). Instead he came home with Spirited Away. Not wanting to waste the money we spent on renting the movie, we watched it. About an hour or so into the film I was crying in my room because some crepy-ass monster guy had just EATEN a guy through a mouth in his STOMACH. That movie has scarred me for life and Pokemon (original season of course) is just about the only anime I have ever seen and it will probably remain that way. I just dont know why they gotta make it so damn WEIRD. And yes, I know there are cultural differences but seriously? Stomach-mouth? C'mon.

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