Jimquisition: Mass Effect 3 And The Case For A Gay Shepard

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ACman:

SERIOUSLY READ THIS.

They should be prohibited from going places around children as a matter of policy, and probably given twice the penelties as normal for violations or if they are caught trying to actually go after children. By a lack of active tracking I mean I don't think an entire neighborhood needs to be informed that so and so is gay, but I do think schools should be basically informed, and it should be attached to IDs so if say some gay guy comes into a casino and gives his ID to be allowed to gamble casino security is aware, and can also inform the guy where to stay away from (arcades, day care, etc..) to prevent accidental tresspass and similar things.

Overall while many people would object out of hand, this is an attitude that has come from long experience, and I've gone through periods where I've been more or less extreme. This seems like a pretty middle ground compromise as it presents few limitations. To be honest as a straight guy I don't hang around schools, playgrounds, arcades, etc... unless I have a good reason (like being paid security) so really being told you can't go there isn't something that is going to hamper most people unless they are up to something to begin with. It's very much one of the cases where I actually think the maxim "only the guilty should be concerned" kind of applies. Some would talk about railing against any kind of limitation, but at the same time I'd ask WTF would an adult man with allegedly no interest in kids fight for the right to go hang around a playground or children's arcade? I mean seriously.

... and trust me, from experience, if you see some solitary guy hanging out in an arcade watching the kids there is very rarely a good reason for it. Sadly you can't do anything out of hand, but trust me, after about 10 minutes you can almost guarantee your going to have to at least step in and make your prescence known at some point (at which point the guy will almost universally go scurrying like a cockroach).

Part of it is what they called "colored glasses" when I took Criminal Justice. Basically people remain optimistic and liberal because they never really see the world properly the way how someone who does law enforcement, "high end" security work, or receives the proper training does. See, you take the right training, watch people through cameras when they don't think they are being observed, and respond to incident after incident and write (or read) report after report, you see things as they actually are, and can recognize behaviors you once wouldn't have been alarmed by for what they are.

Criminals an predators survive because they seem normal, your child molester, shoplifter, pickpocket, stairwell rapist, mugger, or whatever doesn't look like some dude from America's most wanted. He looks like your ordinary person, and can talk a good game about being harmless. Most homosexual predators for example are EXACTLY the guy who looks like the poster child for "we're unfairly maligned, and don't attack children" they don't go walking around covered in tattoos and looking like prison rapist nightmares, or dirty old men. Just like a shoplifter might be an old lady who looks like (and probably is) someone's grandmother, especially if it's part of an organized ring because people tend to be a lot more laid back with the elderly not to mention all the special laws about treating them with kid gloves and so on. You watch this crap 20 million times on a camera and it burns in.

While I'm rambling in a long post, I might as well explain how this kind of thing works as well. See, little boys are braver than girls and have immortal action and adventure fantasies in their head, they are warned, and take warnings less seriously than girls who tend to be a bit more aware of people being after them probably because people teach them more seriously. Your typical gay pedo is going to be some normal looking guy in his 20s or 30s, maybe even good looking, who hangs around an arcade or similar place, to see who has been left without parents or a sibling, and hasn't fallen in with another pack of kids. Or more indidiously for those carrying books, because kids have homework and a lot of your casino parents will have the kids their kids bring the homework to the casino. Basically the pedo will probably play a few video games, offer the kid some extra quarters or something, and then when the kid runs out offer to help him with his homework. The kid probably wants to go somewhere quiet to concentrate with a flat surface so it's pretty easy to gert the kid to enter a stairwell, where the cameras tend to be aimed at the landings. The pedo gets the kid into the stairwell and then goes to do homework with him in the middle of the landing where they can sit, or the kid can *ahem* turn around and use the steps as a flat surface. In that position it's where the pedo can do his thing and unless a security officer comes by on a patrol, at the right moment your going to find the traumatized lad crying with the guy long gone. Even if you find him, because it happened between landings there won't be a great video record since the act itself took place between landings. This is assuming the guy didn't mess with the cameras and security wasn't too busy to notice (given that there are tons of them). Now granted this rarely goes down, because well. there are procedures that make it harder to get away with, but really you'd be shocked how many normal looking dudes have tried to carry out that basic plan.

Pro Tip: Homosexuality =/= Paedophilia. Just because a man likes to nom willies does not mean he wants to nom the willies of small children. Get a fucking grip you homophobic edjit.

EDIT: I realise I've quoted the wrong person. This is not aimed at ACman.

verdant monkai:
HOWEVER in Dragon Age 2 another Bioware game which is basically fantasy, mass effect now. When a character started to flirt with Hawke in a gay way I was given three options. Two of which were options to reciprocate the flirt and act gay. The other was something along the lines of F*CK OFF I AM NOT GAY. Which would have upset the character, and given me rivalry points which I didn't want.
There NEEDS to be a neutral option here so you can say something like "I am flattered but no thank you". So NO I am not Homophobic and pedophilia is not something that should be compared to gay sex, pedophilia is an act of evil, gay sex is a matter of free will and choice.

This is true in so many games. BioWare is terrible with this gay and straight, and so are many other games. The first Witcher had this problem when interacting with females, you never knew when not being an incredible ass-hat would lead you to accidentally have sex with a girl.

Darknacht:

verdant monkai:
HOWEVER in Dragon Age 2 another Bioware game which is basically fantasy, mass effect now. When a character started to flirt with Hawke in a gay way I was given three options. Two of which were options to reciprocate the flirt and act gay. The other was something along the lines of F*CK OFF I AM NOT GAY. Which would have upset the character, and given me rivalry points which I didn't want.
There NEEDS to be a neutral option here so you can say something like "I am flattered but no thank you". So NO I am not Homophobic and pedophilia is not something that should be compared to gay sex, pedophilia is an act of evil, gay sex is a matter of free will and choice.

This is true in so many games. BioWare is terrible with this gay and straight, and so are many other games. The first Witcher had this problem when interacting with females, you never knew when not being an incredible ass-hat would lead you to accidentally have sex with a girl.

Yeah on both these points. With Anders it was a case of "Yay, Imma be gay with you!" or "Get the hell away from me!" with no middle ground of "Sorry pal, I'm not interested." Same for the majority of the romances actually. It was either relationship or complete alienation.

And in the case of the Witcher, within about an hour and a half I'd got laid 5 times. Without even trying. I wish real life worked like that. =<

Is it me or is the art in this show getting slightly better?

Really thy don't want even the gay OPTION! They don't even have that option with their own lives, nothing stops THEIR OWN lives going that way.

All there is is a gay character you can interact with and reciprocate the sexy-time. If you can't resist that you aren't a homophobe... you are a homosexual - in denial.

bringer of illumination:

I've never found the "BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOOK AT IT!" argument to be valid at all.

I don't HAVE to watch the Transformers movies, does that mean that I can't express my opinion about how fucking retarded and poorly made they are?
I don't HAVE to do to interact with other people, i could just stay in my apartment and never go outside, does that mean that I'm retarded for complaining about people acting like idiots because I didn't HAVE to expose myself to them?
No. It fucking doesn't.
If I think something is retarded, then I'm gonna say that it's retarded, even if I didn't "have" to expose myself to it.

There is a difference between exploring why a movie is shitty, and getting onto a game developer for giving player the option to pursue a male homosexual relationship.

The former applies to this game, as I've heard that the gay scenes are done rather horribly. So calling Bioware out on that is one thing.

In the latter, you'd have to actively seek it out... and then be offended. For those who are offended simply at the thought of gay relationships being included in the game, then they're a completely different level of bigot. Admittedly, Mass Effect really isn't much of an RPG.. but the game still sells itself as one, and giving you options is one of the cornerstones of a good roleplaying game.

Homophobia seems to be the last major prejudice that people can actively cling to, these days. Imagine if people made a stink about a developer including the option to make your character black. It's the same damned thing, only in a different color clan uniform.

Spot1990:
DISCLAIMER: DO NOT GOOGLE IMAGE SEARCH PEGGING UNLESS YOUR PRETTY FORWARD THINKING ABOUT SEXUALITY

Jeez, I thought everyone in the internet was pretty desensitized.

You missed my point completely. A lot of things are sex related. Weapons are. See those "ranking stripes" in a triangular shape? They are supposed to represent who has the "biggest dick".

Xenomorphs. Their head is shaped that way because it's phallic.

You can like things without wanting to have sex with them. Yet they are sex related.

By Jim's logic everyone is a flaming homosexual.

theheroofaction:
Jim was referring to physical attraction to phallic objects, as opposed to just liking them. male Homosexuality is defined as physical attraction to a phallus and similar objects.
While the words are interchanged a lot, lust and like have much different meanings.
For example:
I will admit to liking guns. I don't however find attraction in them, nothing about them "turns me on".

Related to that, one wouldn't believe how often I have to inform people that there is no disagreement.

That's the point. Attraction does not imply sexual satisfaction. I don't know anyone who gets off by shooting, or competing in sports, and other "male" activities.

But it's still sexual. We humans have the ability to enjoy sexuality without having to get off.

I don't start jacking off uncontrollably when I see a girl taking off her clothes. It's still sexual.

Spears. Swords. Pretty much any kind of weapon is related to the phallus because our brain gives it that connotation.

And come on, in sports there is plenty of male-on-male contact. Yet it doesn't make it's participants gay. Jim had a giant dildo replicating the infamous Saint's Row 3 weapon. That doesn't make him gay, and if he didn't like it he would have given it away. Just saying.

Buretsu:
Straight people watch porn with gigantic penises, and wish they were that guy.

This dude gets it. How would a man admire a big cock if his male brain did not make him attracted to phallic objects? I'm not saying I try to peek at other men in public restrooms, but that we are pretty much wired to become the alpha male.

Alrocsmash:
Homosexuality exists in over 450 animal species. Homophobia exists in only one. Which one seems more unnatural now?

People need to grow up.

Wow... this is awesomely quotable. Thanks for this post.
Although... I somehow feel telling people to grow up isn't quite harsh enough ;)

lordwindowlicker:

bringer of illumination:

I've never found the "BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOOK AT IT!" argument to be valid at all.

I don't HAVE to watch the Transformers movies, does that mean that I can't express my opinion about how fucking retarded and poorly made they are?
I don't HAVE to do to interact with other people, i could just stay in my apartment and never go outside, does that mean that I'm retarded for complaining about people acting like idiots because I didn't HAVE to expose myself to them?
No. It fucking doesn't.
If I think something is retarded, then I'm gonna say that it's retarded, even if I didn't "have" to expose myself to it.

There is a difference between exploring why a movie is shitty, and getting onto a game developer for giving player the option to pursue a male homosexual relationship.

The former applies to this game, as I've heard that the gay scenes are done rather horribly. So calling Bioware out on that is one thing.

In the latter, you'd have to actively seek it out... and then be offended. For those who are offended simply at the thought of gay relationships being included in the game, then they're a completely different level of bigot. Admittedly, Mass Effect really isn't much of an RPG.. but the game still sells itself as one, and giving you options is one of the cornerstones of a good roleplaying game.

Homophobia seems to be the last major prejudice that people can actively cling to, these days. Imagine if people made a stink about a developer including the option to make your character black. It's the same damned thing, only in a different color clan uniform.

I'm ONLY talking about people who complain about the gay scenes because they're badly written and shoe-horned in ret-cons.

Complaining about a scene purely because of ideological, sexual or religious content is retarded.

I'm saying what I'm saying because Jim just hand-waived the argument that the gay-scenes are bad because they're badly done by saying: "Hurp durp you don't have to see them!"

captainfluoxetine:

DISCLAIMER: I do not attach any stigma to the term 'mental illness'. I do not use it in a derogatory way nor do I believe it is something an individual should ever be judged on.

It matters not if you place a stigma upon the term, the term has a stigma. It's like using the n-word and saying it is okay because you don't place a stigma upon it. A stigma upon the word still exists, and you will still be looked down upon for using it.

The whole 'survival of the species' thing is a fallacy. No species in existence exists to survive 'as a species' they exist to pass on their own genetic material. Homosexuals are inherently not the ideal for doing this. An individuals genes do not care for the species they belong to, they care for being passed on to another generation.

Your argument is incorrect due to the existence of human beings. It can be proven that humans do think in a collective sense and could be said to fight for the "survival of the species." (Godwins Law: Hell there was an entire political movement based around it). The only thing that limits us today is that we think of our collectives as split between things like "American" or "European" as opposed to "Human." It can be said that the reason for this is because we as humans naturally seek conflict and without another major force on the planet to conflict with, we conflict with one another.

If your argument was about, say, wolves, then you might have a point.

Further to the above paragraph I'm going to do something incredibly irritating and patronizing and guess the counter argument many people will put forward which is 'But we treat each other with kindness and respect people, surely if all we wanted to do was pass on our genes we'd just fuck every member of the opposite sex and kill every one of the same?'.. or an argument to that effect. Well no, we wouldn't, by not acting like savages we ensure mutual survival, I allow you to survive, you allow me to survive, therefore MY genes (the important ones in my view) get passed on.This is seen in nature as well, morality is just a more evolved version of this survival mechanism.

Yeah, I'd never argue the "kindness and respect" argument. Both of those were originally defense mechanisms(on an interpersonal scale) that developed into social norms even though they very rarely still hold the same defensive function.

Of course now we have to begin making certain assumptions, and I carry this on in the spirit of debate and to a certain extent playing devils advocate.

Firstly, assuming homosexuality has a genetic predisposition. If there is a 'gay gene' or several of them they do not HAVE to have a point. They may simply have persisted because occasionally for whatever reason homosexuals reproduce, its a recessive gene, or any other number of factors. The existence of homosexuals does not mean they have a 'point'. It must be remembered that evolution hasn't finished, we didn't turn up as modern man and then nature went 'Fuck it, im done here!'

They may not HAVE to have a point. That is correct. However, this does not mean that we cannot create a point for them. One of the greatest abilities of the human race is to manipulate evolution. We've been doing it since the dawn of modern medicine. We could certainly create an institutional system to give them a point (say, they aren't allowed to have children and we give them some sort of incentive for not doing so). Of course, you could argue that they do have a natural point and that their point, overall, was to avoid overpopulation. If that were true, I would bet on it simply being a recessive gene. That meaning that when the recessive gene develops, it simply throws out that entire persons contribution to the species to avoid what I would call saturation.

Modern day homosexual couples find ways to reproduce? Well through totally unnatural means, that's hardly relevant.

Evolution in modern times does not have to be natural. Since we are on a video game website, think Deus Ex. If the couple has the ability to find the information on how to spread their genes and has the earning power to pay for the procedures to do it, then they have just earned the ability to pass on their genes. This is because the evolution we are creating within our society is one where traits such as the ability to fight predators, forage, etc. are being replaced with abilities such as potential for earning power(aka. traits conducive to being able to earn) or intelligence. One unfortunate sidenote: If we accepted the harsh reality of our societies new evolution, we would let the homeless die, as that is where bad genes go to remove themselves from the gene pool. That special homosexual couple is completely relevant to the discussion of evolution.

I understand why the whole overpopulation thing is a compelling argument for the 'point' to homosexuality, but its fundamentally flawed when you consider the basics of evolution and genetics.

you make this statement but do nothing to prove it. You can't just make a claim against something without a warrant.

Okay. You can, it is just extremely ineffective

I realize I've almost totally lost the point of 'homosexuality is a mental illness' as in honesty its not like I have hard evidence one way or the other, and as I say I continue this more in the spirit of debate than fighting a corner. On that subject however I would argue that MANY mental illnesses depression, schizophrenia and so on are genetic in nature AND do not benefit the individual nor help them reproduce. They in fact hinder the individuals ability to function and therefore, though not physically, mentally hinder the individuals ability to reproduce. It doesn't seem totally incomprehensible that homosexuality could be classed alongside these.

Your bolded statement really settles the argument. We are both layman, we must defer to those who are experts on the topic. If you can not provide expert evidence(testimony, etc) that would contradict the status quo(that homosexuality is not a mental illness - otherwise we would have homosexuals in padded rooms), then you have no solid argument.

Next point:

Here is the thing. In our 'new' world, homosexuality doesn't hinder their ability to reproduce. If you want to argue there is no point to homosexuality, I'll accept that and rather argue that it is nothing more than a gene that alters a trait of the person that may have, at one time, hindered their ability to reproduce, but now it does not. As such, it is a trait (in humans) that is completely inconsequential to evolution. Therefore, as it does not hinder the ability to function in any way, it is not a mental illness.

Thanks for the argument.

bringer of illumination:
I'm saying what I'm saying because Jim just hand-waived the argument that the gay-scenes are bad because they're badly done by saying: "Hurp durp you don't have to see them!"

He didn't address the claims that they were poorly handled, unless I'm just forgetting that portion of his video. He was only responding to those who are against male homosexuality in the game.

If I'm wrong, then feel free to point it out.. but I don't believe that I am.

ElPatron:

Spot1990:
DISCLAIMER: DO NOT GOOGLE IMAGE SEARCH PEGGING UNLESS YOUR PRETTY FORWARD THINKING ABOUT SEXUALITY

Jeez, I thought everyone in the internet was pretty desensitized.

You missed my point completely. A lot of things are sex related. Weapons are. See those "ranking stripes" in a triangular shape? They are supposed to represent who has the "biggest dick".

Xenomorphs. Their head is shaped that way because it's phallic.

You can like things without wanting to have sex with them. Yet they are sex related.

By Jim's logic everyone is a flaming homosexual.

Yes but his entire point was if you do want to have sex with symbols of male masculinity you might be a bit gay. He wasn't talking about "like" in a generic way, he was talking specifically about wanting to fuck something that is representative of your own gender.

There actually has to be videos defending the inclusion of homosexuality in videogames and you think no one here is going to be bothered by pegging? Lets just say people are still a teensy bit closed minded when it comes to matters of sex.

Spot1990:
Yes but his entire point was if you do want to have sex with symbols of male masculinity you might be a bit gay.

Pegging involves a female partner. How is it gay?

Jim was childish, period. And being childish is not the best way to say others need to grow up.

ACman:

Therumancer:

ACman:

Hell I just reported myself to see what would happen. My forum health can take a few hits.

Yours on the otherhand....

Your forum health meter is actually pretty meaningless. I had pretty much a perfect record until around Christmas of last year when I got banned for making some critisisms of The Escapist itself that I shouldn't have but the ban was repealed and I was put on the current status for that where it was made clear that they weren't going to follow it digit by digit for offenses.

As this subject has recurred in one form or another for years now, and this isn't the first time I've taken a position like this one, I'm not paticularly worried about it. Those hits won't last you long though if you keep flaming people, especially if they decide your a trouble maker. I've been around quite a long while.

Feel free to disregard me, but I'm telling you, if you make it personal, it doesn't matter what your reasons are, you aren't going to last. Not everyone here is as laid back as I am.

This is not flaming.

You've decided to come onto a forum and denigrate an entire section of society. When you do that you're throwing yourself open this sort of response. My disgust is justified.

Only when you attack the message, and not the user. You can respond to the point I'm making but when you call me a bigot and so on that's when you step over the line. I could be pretty insulting towards you in the other direction, but rather I remain civil and focus on what you say, rather than attacking you personally.

Basically, liberal outrage, does not justify what your doing, hence my warning. Understand also, roughly 50% of the population disagrees with you, and takes the extreme other side, despite what the media might portray. Conservative outrage can be just as bad and justified by the numbers, and would be equally wrong within the tenets of these forums.

It doesn't much matter though, you can believe me or not. I've said my piece. Get outraged about anything (gaming, politics, etc..) and keep attacking people and you won't be here long.

One of the reasons I've been able to take a right wing, or right-centrist approach to debates like this when they occur without getting in trouble (as I said, my health meter is the result of something else totally unrelated which resulted in an insta-ban which was repealed with probation) is because I remain polite and entirely focused on the issues
rather than the person speaking. Not everyone is as tolerant as I am.

ACman:

Therumancer:

My point is that disagreeing with someone does not give you the right to disrespect them.

If your opinion is:

Heterosexual > Homosexual > Paedophile

Then yes I am going to take the right to disrespect you because that is offensive no matter how politely you say it. And regardless of you backing away from that now that is exactly what you insinuated with your previous posts.

Your opinion is essentially the same as when a Klansmember claims:

Caucasian > African > Animal.

And you keep on going on about "Bioware shouldn't be forced to do this!" ----> They were going to do this in ME2! It was cut for time!

http://spong.com/article/21081/BioWare-Gay-Scenes-in-Mass-Effect-2s-Too-Much-Work

It is not, as you would have it, about "political correctness".

You want to stop getting called out on this bullshit? Stop spouting it. Stop mentioning paedophiles and homosexuals in the same paragraph.

Stop tossing around the word deviancy when you clearly don't understand the appropriate use of the term. (ie. when sexual activity is inappropriate or harmful)

Or do us all a favour an stop posting altogether.

See, and here you go, beating up your straw man, and this is why I don't take a lot of arguements being made seriously, especially when they claim to represent something I believe or represent which is inaccurate. I recommend you head to Jim's other thread, read what I've actually said on the subject, which might take going back a LOT of posts to the initial statement without the issue of context from specific arguements that can't be taken on it's own, and then get back to me because I'm not going into it again in this thread.

In this case your ignorant and have absolutly no idea who, or what your even argueing with. At the best I'd guess you jumped into the other thread later, and missed the initial points of the discussion and jumped to some incorrect conclusions.

Mind you, I do not expect you to agree with me, but you might be able to form a more relevent and reasoned arguement to whom your actually trying to face the next time this debate surfaces because I'm not going to be slugging it out in this thread, having made my points in regards to this issue already and not seeing the point of an endless political brawl on what amounts to a left wing forum.

But also remember, if you don't keep it polite, you can come up with the best arguements in the world, your not going to get my attention or a response. This goes for pretty much everyone.

I do love the irony of the keen fascination the anti-gays seem to have with what other men stick their penises in behind closed doors.

ACman:

Therumancer:

My point is that disagreeing with someone does not give you the right to disrespect them.

If your opinion is:

Heterosexual > Homosexual > Paedophile

Then yes I am going to take the right to disrespect you because that is offensive no matter how politely you say it. And regardless of you backing away from that now that is exactly what you insinuated with your previous posts.

Your opinion is essentially the same as when a Klansmember claims:

Caucasian > African > Animal.

And you keep on going on about "Bioware shouldn't be forced to do this!" ----> They were going to do this in ME2! It was cut for time!

http://spong.com/article/21081/BioWare-Gay-Scenes-in-Mass-Effect-2s-Too-Much-Work

It is not, as you would have it, about "political correctness".

You want to stop getting called out on this bullshit? Stop spouting it. Stop mentioning paedophiles and homosexuals in the same paragraph.

Stop tossing around the word deviancy when you clearly don't understand the appropriate use of the term. (ie. when sexual activity is inappropriate or harmful)

Or do us all a favour an stop posting altogether.

ACman:

Therumancer:

My point is that disagreeing with someone does not give you the right to disrespect them.

If your opinion is:

Heterosexual > Homosexual > Paedophile

Then yes I am going to take the right to disrespect you because that is offensive no matter how politely you say it. And regardless of you backing away from that now that is exactly what you insinuated with your previous posts.

Your opinion is essentially the same as when a Klansmember claims:

Caucasian > African > Animal.

And you keep on going on about "Bioware shouldn't be forced to do this!" ----> They were going to do this in ME2! It was cut for time!

http://spong.com/article/21081/BioWare-Gay-Scenes-in-Mass-Effect-2s-Too-Much-Work

It is not, as you would have it, about "political correctness".

You want to stop getting called out on this bullshit? Stop spouting it. Stop mentioning paedophiles and homosexuals in the same paragraph.

Stop tossing around the word deviancy when you clearly don't understand the appropriate use of the term. (ie. when sexual activity is inappropriate or harmful)

Or do us all a favour an stop posting altogether.

See, and here you go, beating up your straw man, and this is why I don't take a lot of arguements being made seriously, especially when they claim to represent something I believe or represent which is inaccurate. I recommend you head to Jim's other thread, read what I've actually said on the subject, which might take going back a LOT of posts to the initial statement without the issue of context from specific arguements that can't be taken on it's own, and then get back to me because I'm not going into it again in this thread.

In this case your ignorant and have absolutly no idea who, or what your even argueing with. At the best I'd guess you jumped into the other thread later, and missed the initial points of the discussion and jumped to some incorrect conclusions.

Mind you, I do not expect you to agree with me, but you might be able to form a more relevent and reasoned arguement to whom your actually trying to face the next time this debate surfaces because I'm not going to be slugging it out in this thread, having made my points in regards to this issue already and not seeing the point of an endless political brawl on what amounts to a left wing forum.

But also remember, if you don't keep it polite, you can come up with the best arguements in the world, your not going to get my attention or a response. This goes for pretty much everyone.

Therumancer:
But also remember, if you don't keep it polite, you can come up with the best arguements in the world, your not going to get my attention or a response. This goes for pretty much everyone.

Therumancer, I will be polite. I would like answers to some things that you have not yet addressed, at least not that I can find.
Please explain how any of the other things I listed earlier are any less of a deviation of the intended workings of the human body than homosexuality. I really would like to know, I'm not closed minded you just seem to have no argument.
And it seems from the beginning they wanted to include every romantic possibility they could but where unsure if the fans would accept it. Is there a statement somewhere that says that they put it in because they felt pressured to or that they where doing it because of political correctness?
I would really like real answers to these questions. I am very against developers feeling forced to change there games because of out side pressure, it detracts from their ability to be creative. If you can show me that this is the case I will agree with you on this point, I am not an unreasonable person I will listen to evidence.
Also, I am a moderate conservative so try not to act like anyone disagreeing you must be a leftist liberal.

ACman:
Let's keep going with Therumancer shall we?

Therumancer:

I've written some detailed posts on it with mixed responses, no need to start a fight about it. In short we don't have a "cure" for homosexuality that's viable right now, though ideally that will happen with time, and more akin to what I've posted in commentary on science fiction (ie have the condition elimited in the process of simply making people perfectly healthy) as opposed to some kind of witch hunt with people being run down and dragging off to surgey clinics or having needles stuck in their arm or anything.

................................

Essentially what you're saying is that you want to breed a specific genetic trait out of humanity?

In the short term I think gay men and lesbians need to be considered seperate issues.

What? You find the sapphic honeys particularly desirable but you hate fag-town?

Men and women are differant both physically and psychologically, and this applies to homosexuals as well. Despite liberal assurances that it's not the case, the reality is that gay men ARE more likely to attack children than just about any other group.

....

I think I'm more likely to attack YOU than just about any group.

Even with the statistics put out by the left wing you see you'll notice a trend to use stats compiled from all homosexuals and then applied to the arguements, once you remove the lesbians you wind up with gays being twice as likely to attack children as straight guys which kind of destroys a lot of the point. Not to mention that such statistics are compiled with an agenda and you'd only see the left wing promoting statistics that reinforced what they wanted to say.

What is your source?

Most importantly though I've had a lot of experience with such things, both having been trained to deal with sexual predators,

No, fuck you. You've made an outrageous claim. WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR SOURCE?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and having looked into it being a sex abuse victim myself (which does not invalidate anything I say). One thing you'll notice is that you just don't see lesbians attacking little girls, I mean sure, I'm sure there are exceptions where it's happened, but very rarely. When you hear about homosexual assault, who is it that does it? Gay men.

Wow..... I'm overwhelmed....... That's fucking amazing. I never would have thought of that; homosexual assault.... is done by gay men.....

I'm fucking amazed.

Next up in Thermaturg's amazing insights: Heterosexual assault done by {DUN DUN DUUUUN} heterosexual men!!!!!

Wow. There is no wonder that this dickhead cannot profess..... [seriously fuck this guy]

That's not just bad press, in about a decade of working as casino security where morons leave their kids unattended off the gaming floor and don't want to pay for daycare or whatever, I have literally dealt with dozens if not hundreds of gay men trying to lure little boys, more than I've seen straight guys with little girls (and that does happen with some frequency). I have not run into a single lesbian trying to pick up little girls... so really it's not bad press, that's how it is "on the street" so to speak from someone who was paid to look out for things like this. Of course due to concerns over NAMBLA we had to treat the gay pedos with kid gloves, but that's a whole differant story.

Ahh! Anecdotal evidence. Fucking meaningless.

Even if your statistically meaningless sample was representational then who is to say that those paedophiles targeting boys wouldn't be well adjusted, normal homosexual men if people like you weren't judging them? And how many step-fathers that rape their step-daughters have you left out of this meaningless anecdote?

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think gay men should be arbitrarly lined up, executed, castrated, or anything else. We're not dealing with a situation where this is the case for every gay man or anything of the sort.

................

I do however think gay men should be registered, much like sex offenders,

.....................................

but without the active tracking. They should be prohibited from going places around children as a matter of policy,

I give up. FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING HOMOPHOBE. THERE IS NO GRACEFUL WAY TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

FUCK THIS GUY.

SERIOUSLY READ THIS.

They should be prohibited from going places around children as a matter of policy, and probably given twice the penelties as normal for violations or if they are caught trying to actually go after children. By a lack of active tracking I mean I don't think an entire neighborhood needs to be informed that so and so is gay, but I do think schools should be basically informed, and it should be attached to IDs so if say some gay guy comes into a casino and gives his ID to be allowed to gamble casino security is aware, and can also inform the guy where to stay away from (arcades, day care, etc..) to prevent accidental tresspass and similar things.

Overall while many people would object out of hand, this is an attitude that has come from long experience, and I've gone through periods where I've been more or less extreme. This seems like a pretty middle ground compromise as it presents few limitations. To be honest as a straight guy I don't hang around schools, playgrounds, arcades, etc... unless I have a good reason (like being paid security) so really being told you can't go there isn't something that is going to hamper most people unless they are up to something to begin with. It's very much one of the cases where I actually think the maxim "only the guilty should be concerned" kind of applies. Some would talk about railing against any kind of limitation, but at the same time I'd ask WTF would an adult man with allegedly no interest in kids fight for the right to go hang around a playground or children's arcade? I mean seriously.

... and trust me, from experience, if you see some solitary guy hanging out in an arcade watching the kids there is very rarely a good reason for it. Sadly you can't do anything out of hand, but trust me, after about 10 minutes you can almost guarantee your going to have to at least step in and make your prescence known at some point (at which point the guy will almost universally go scurrying like a cockroach).

Part of it is what they called "colored glasses" when I took Criminal Justice. Basically people remain optimistic and liberal because they never really see the world properly the way how someone who does law enforcement, "high end" security work, or receives the proper training does. See, you take the right training, watch people through cameras when they don't think they are being observed, and respond to incident after incident and write (or read) report after report, you see things as they actually are, and can recognize behaviors you once wouldn't have been alarmed by for what they are.

Criminals an predators survive because they seem normal, your child molester, shoplifter, pickpocket, stairwell rapist, mugger, or whatever doesn't look like some dude from America's most wanted. He looks like your ordinary person, and can talk a good game about being harmless. Most homosexual predators for example are EXACTLY the guy who looks like the poster child for "we're unfairly maligned, and don't attack children" they don't go walking around covered in tattoos and looking like prison rapist nightmares, or dirty old men. Just like a shoplifter might be an old lady who looks like (and probably is) someone's grandmother, especially if it's part of an organized ring because people tend to be a lot more laid back with the elderly not to mention all the special laws about treating them with kid gloves and so on. You watch this crap 20 million times on a camera and it burns in.

While I'm rambling in a long post, I might as well explain how this kind of thing works as well. See, little boys are braver than girls and have immortal action and adventure fantasies in their head, they are warned, and take warnings less seriously than girls who tend to be a bit more aware of people being after them probably because people teach them more seriously. Your typical gay pedo is going to be some normal looking guy in his 20s or 30s, maybe even good looking, who hangs around an arcade or similar place, to see who has been left without parents or a sibling, and hasn't fallen in with another pack of kids. Or more indidiously for those carrying books, because kids have homework and a lot of your casino parents will have the kids their kids bring the homework to the casino. Basically the pedo will probably play a few video games, offer the kid some extra quarters or something, and then when the kid runs out offer to help him with his homework. The kid probably wants to go somewhere quiet to concentrate with a flat surface so it's pretty easy to gert the kid to enter a stairwell, where the cameras tend to be aimed at the landings. The pedo gets the kid into the stairwell and then goes to do homework with him in the middle of the landing where they can sit, or the kid can *ahem* turn around and use the steps as a flat surface. In that position it's where the pedo can do his thing and unless a security officer comes by on a patrol, at the right moment your going to find the traumatized lad crying with the guy long gone. Even if you find him, because it happened between landings there won't be a great video record since the act itself took place between landings. This is assuming the guy didn't mess with the cameras and security wasn't too busy to notice (given that there are tons of them). Now granted this rarely goes down, because well. there are procedures that make it harder to get away with, but really you'd be shocked how many normal looking dudes have tried to carry out that basic plan.

I want to fuck you. I'm not even gay, I just want you.

Thank you for writing this.

bringer of illumination:

Therumancer:
My point is that disagreeing with someone does not give you the right to disrespect them.

Okay, I don't even know what your argument is about or what you opinions are, but I have to step in here, because I see this stupid shit spouted all the time.

Yes. It. Does.

If someone espouses an opinion that you find contemptible then you have every right to disrespect them, and they have every right to disrespect you back.

Respect is something that should be earned, not arbitrarily given to everyone, and if someone has done nothing to earn your respect then you SHOULDN'T respect them.

The attitude about respect has lead to a modern age where every fucking tard with an opinion thinks they have something worthwhile to say because no one ever calls them on it when they start spewing their bullshit.

For starters my warning is about site policy. It's intended not so much because of me being concerned about people being rude to me, but because I figure off this topic some of the people involved like AC seem like they are intelligent enough where I'd enjoy conversing with them on other discussions. If they act like this routinely though every time they have a strong disagreement, they WILL get banned. Arguements about free speech and such don't apply on forums like this, whether they should or not is an entirely differant discussion which would be so far off topic as to be ridiculous, but next time it comes up I'll probably be right there with you in the thread, assuming your actually interested in things like that.

I'll also remind you that your espoused principle is a double edged sword. See, "bullshit" is a matter of perspective, especially on big issues. Right now your on a friendly forum to the socially liberal, on other sites you'd find the situation reversed. To be painfully blunt I think a point people here tend to overlook is that there is no clear "right" answer here accepted by society, simply one promoted by the media, with the reality being heavily divided. Truthfully I sometimes wonder how people here would fare if they tried to do what I do and express their point of view on a hostile site to provide some sense of balance. I suspect most would flee with their tail between their legs, or freak out to the extreme and get themselves banned.

I didn't exactly watch last weeks episode. Started it up found Jim was reading something to me didn't sound too interesting skipped forward a few times, saw the same thing, and then I went back to other things.

Personally I have no problem with "Gay" themes being in Bioware games for the most part. In fact I bought my Gay Uncle DragonAge because I figured he'd get a kick out of the gay themes. However, I disliked the way DragonAge 2 approached it. The problem was with Anders. I don't like playing a Jack Ass in any game, and evidently if you took the neutral path with Anders he constantly hit on you. Only if you were mean to him would he get a clue and stop it. Though that behavior only helped in convincing me that he had to die by the end of the game for the other obvious reasons. (why did they make the irritating murderer a healer?) I hope the Mass Effect 3 "Gay" theme isn't triggered in the same way since the last one was irritating.

Darknacht:

Therumancer:
But also remember, if you don't keep it polite, you can come up with the best arguements in the world, your not going to get my attention or a response. This goes for pretty much everyone.

Therumancer, I will be polite. I would like answers to some things that you have not yet addressed, at least not that I can find.
Please explain how any of the other things I listed earlier are any less of a deviation of the intended workings of the human body than homosexuality. I really would like to know, I'm not closed minded you just seem to have no argument.
And it seems from the beginning they wanted to include every romantic possibility they could but where unsure if the fans would accept it. Is there a statement somewhere that says that they put it in because they felt pressured to or that they where doing it because of political correctness?
I would really like real answers to these questions. I am very against developers feeling forced to change there games because of out side pressure, it detracts from their ability to be creative. If you can show me that this is the case I will agree with you on this point, I am not an unreasonable person I will listen to evidence.
Also, I am a moderate conservative so try not to act like anyone disagreeing you must be a leftist liberal.

The thing here is that "deviation" simply means differant from the norm. I already explained things multiple times. The way a normal, healthy human body works is for one gender to be attracted to the other, in order to propagate the species and cause the genders to cooperate for survival given the physical differances. That includes a constant sex drive and desire to copulate as we see in the general behavior of humanity, because that same desire and the pleasure involved tends to keep men around the women and so on. Anything that causes one to be attracted to something else, is by definition a deviation, as in differant from that norm.

A lot of the points your making as being "deviant" such as engaging in sex without a desire to procreate are ridiculous as that is part of how things are intended to function, it's part of what causes humans to be social creatures. The desire to seek sexual gratification is not part of what makes a deviant, deviant, it's what triggers that arousal and statisfaction.

None of which has much to do with the overall point of this discussion, which you just seemed to aknowlege, so there is no real point to argue.

To be honest right now my major concern is whether to break my personal principles and report someone due to a poster that feels the need to spam other threads with quotes from me. Not that I much care because I did say those things publically and after these years it's hardly a secret (ie if your a regular and don't know a lot of my stances when it comes to politics, it's pretty surprising), but it's still obnoxious and off topic to a lot of the relevent threads.

At any rate, I'm done on this subject again, since really it just gets circular and some people take it too far, even if your being polite currently. I'm sure it will all come up again. Maybe even in a few days if Jim decides to do a part 3... though honestly I'd like to see him get on other subjects. One of the big issues currently involving Mass Effect 3 is not the homosexuality, but the concern over "review bombing" which raises all kinds of questions about installation problems (ie rating a product a 0 for being unplayable by the users making the review), to people who put up low reviews after having pirated a working, fully complete version of the game, come to a negative conclusion, and decided to share that as part of "warning" consumers. I mean aside from the people who may or may not organize "let's bomb this for the lulz" crusades. On top of that with things like the DLC issue, there is the question as to whether it's reasonable to give a game a low rating based on day #1 DLC and content you you know is missing from the game, especially if it's something that we're seeing with this paticular batch of DLC. These are all topics I think would work well for The Jimquisition, especially seeing as he's pretty much a centrist on industry matters... but we'll see what happens.

Oh and as far as calling people on political positions, that applies largely to the arguements involved. On most matters even those claiming to be right wing here tend to be fair left leaning social liberals on these forums. I am really the only one I know of who is even slightly right when it comes to social policy. When it comes to international politics and militarism, I do tend to see a few people agreeing with me on that from time to time. I myself tend to lean to the left when it comes to issues like domestic economic policies and things like unions... I tend to be very pro-union, even if union systems are very vulnerable to corruption themselves and tend to wind up becoming shills for the very system they allege to oppose.

Dear Jim, I understand your point regarding the necessity of choice, and the way in which it isn't compulsory to include a gay Shepard. As a further disclaimer, I will be banging as many people of either gender as Shepard. However, you fail to take into artistic appraisal into effect. Viewing the series and the continuities of each of the optional story lines, and especially considering these things as a whole, adding such a glaringly different element now is a question of poor design that detracts from the artistic integrity of Mass Effect, especially considering that for many, the story itself is key to an RPG. These romance options should have been included from the beginning, and remained consistent, or else have been omitted entirely. You do argue for the fluidity of sexuality, and whilst I acknowledge that, (I agree with you; bisexuality is number one) I'd rather have been able to play gay Shepard from the outset rather than forcing him to change his preference in the third act. Finally, I hope the game includes homophobia. Prejudice is the backbone of fantasy and sci-fi politics.

burningdragoon:
I have a problem with the gay relationship option. It's the same problem I have with the straight romance options and the cheating non-gender but looks like a girl so everyone's happy romance option. It's usually terribly written, usually unbelievable and any physical intimacy between two character models almost always looks stupid goofy.

...which of course doesn't mean I don't do them, I just admit they feel pretty stupid on the (w)hole.

Quite true, also back in the day in Bioware games you had to actively pursue the romance option. Shit I remember Jaheria being quite complex to romance correctly. In modern Bioware games if you are just civil with NPCs all of a sudden you are fighting off sexual advances with a stick. I'd like a bit of subtlety returned, although to be fair after I buy ME3 in six months or so I probably won't bother with Bioware again.

Bravo Jim well said and like yourself i really cannot understand other peoples attitudes to this at all - more choice is always good in my book, if you don't like it don't choose it....

My only complaint about all of this is the fact that this wasnt an option for the previous games, it would be a lot different to have a Shepherd who could have the choice to be gay throughout and to me is as important to have the choice of being straight throughout (or if you desire a bi Shepherd being able to chose either gender)

I agree completely on the Mass Effect front, if you like it go for it, if you don't then... well don't. Except one small detail in this rant rubbed me up the wrong way. I'm completely okay with homosexuality, I'm quite open about it. But the only level at which Pedophilia and Homosexuality differ is their legal stance. Both are sexual attractions which may or may not be acted on.

A gay man might fantasise about sex with another man, he might be gagging for it. But just like a heterosexual he isn't forced to act upon that sexual desire. Hence why the rape rate isn't through the roof. Likewise a Pedophile doesn't necessarily have to go around shagging children, that's sexual abuse.

Please, learn the difference. You can't condemn a man or woman for the sexuality they were born with. Whether they're attracted to men or that saucy Border Collie down the road. When they act on those sexual urges, please then judge.

verdant monkai:
Let me just get this out of the way "I AM CLEVER AT VIDEO GAMES".
Any way my complaint with gayness in ME3 was that it was too late in the series, Jim said that you could choose to be gay or not. If this is the case than that is absolutely fine.

Shepard is an avatar for you in the Mass effect story, and if you are gay so is your Shepard.
HOWEVER in Dragon Age 2 another Bioware game which is basically fantasy, mass effect now. When a character started to flirt with Hawke in a gay way I was given three options. Two of which were options to reciprocate the flirt and act gay. The other was something along the lines of F*CK OFF I AM NOT GAY. Which would have upset the character, and given me rivalry points which I didn't want.
There NEEDS to be a neutral option here so you can say something like "I am flattered but no thank you". So NO I am not Homophobic and pedophilia is not something that should be compared to gay sex, pedophilia is an act of evil, gay sex is a matter of free will and choice.

Are we still talking about Anders? Look, I won't say DA2 was flawless, but that dialogue choice rang true for me. That is, if you rebuff someone's advances they are liable to be a little put out about it! It's tough to put yourself out there by showing attraction and get knocked back. Ten bloody rivalry points - you can still have full friendship before half way through act 2 without hardly trying! Besides, Anders does the same thing - with the same result - to F!Hawke.

There is another dialogue option - you can see the whole thing off at the pass earlier in the same conversation by saying that being posessed by a demon is creepy, for even less rivalry.

Lono Shrugged:

darron13:

Lono Shrugged:
Great as usual but he totally missed out on the entitlement argument. Considering how many tits and asses get jammed in our face in most games, homosexual dudes must have it pretty rough.
Then again there is Gears of war....

My favorite thing about Jim I gotta say is how consistant and well thought out his opinions are. (even if i sometimes disagree I never fault where he is coming from) He never seems to contradict himself proving a point and thats the reason I would rather have more respect for him than some of the other people who do opinion pieces on this site.

Gears of War? Ick. Those guys are about as attractive as a piece of burnt toast taped onto a tank.
Coming from an actual gay guy.
And yeah it's funny that in the RARE SITUATION where there's male fanservice, you notice it.

I dunno I always figured Marcus would cuddle after.......maybe cry a little

Speaking as a filthy breeder, I never found much sex appeal in games either. For probably the same reasons you don't like Marcus and crew in that they are caricatures of real physicality and not attractive. Which kinda proves my point that sexualization in games is jammed in everyones faces and is universally pretty shit. It's kind of like how marketing companies are targeting the gay community. Yeah it's equality. But it's shit equality. You are now as sexualized and manipulated as the rest of us. woohoo! I have no problem with dudes/ladydudes loving each other and personally find it as compelling as a mixed dude couple. Because at the end of the day we are all dudes and if some dudes have a problem with that, then are not really dudes at all.

they're jerks

<NOTICE: YOU HAVE OVERUSED YOUR USAGE OF THE WORD DUDE FOR THIS WEEKLY PERIOD>
XD
On a serious note, I agree with you. It's not as obvious (at least in Western Games) for fanservice aimed at gays but it's there. Oversexualization is something that I find unattractive, I mean the most attractive videogame character I've ever come across is actually Ellis from Left 4 Dead 2, who isn't at all sexualized, but just came over (to me at least) as being attractive, a bit naive but in a cute way and as being generally sweet and caring.
If they make characters attractive in THAT way then there won't be much of a problem. A good on-topic example is Tali from Mass Effect, she is in no way particularly sexualized, but many players love her and it's because they use her personality to get people to like her, not her boobs.

Personally I am straight, and I choose to pursue straight character relationships, HOWEVER I couldn't give two halves of a whole flying F**K about whether or not someone else chooses to have a gay character. If someone (male or female) who may or may not be a homosexual, decides that they want a same-sex realtionship between their characters, it is NONE of my own or ANYONE else's business.

Therumancer:

bringer of illumination:

Therumancer:
My point is that disagreeing with someone does not give you the right to disrespect them.

Okay, I don't even know what your argument is about or what you opinions are, but I have to step in here, because I see this stupid shit spouted all the time.

Yes. It. Does.

If someone espouses an opinion that you find contemptible then you have every right to disrespect them, and they have every right to disrespect you back.

Respect is something that should be earned, not arbitrarily given to everyone, and if someone has done nothing to earn your respect then you SHOULDN'T respect them.

The attitude about respect has lead to a modern age where every fucking tard with an opinion thinks they have something worthwhile to say because no one ever calls them on it when they start spewing their bullshit.

For starters my warning is about site policy. It's intended not so much because of me being concerned about people being rude to me, but because I figure off this topic some of the people involved like AC seem like they are intelligent enough where I'd enjoy conversing with them on other discussions. If they act like this routinely though every time they have a strong disagreement, they WILL get banned. Arguements about free speech and such don't apply on forums like this, whether they should or not is an entirely differant discussion which would be so far off topic as to be ridiculous, but next time it comes up I'll probably be right there with you in the thread, assuming your actually interested in things like that.

I'll also remind you that your espoused principle is a double edged sword. See, "bullshit" is a matter of perspective, especially on big issues. Right now your on a friendly forum to the socially liberal, on other sites you'd find the situation reversed. To be painfully blunt I think a point people here tend to overlook is that there is no clear "right" answer here accepted by society, simply one promoted by the media, with the reality being heavily divided. Truthfully I sometimes wonder how people here would fare if they tried to do what I do and express their point of view on a hostile site to provide some sense of balance. I suspect most would flee with their tail between their legs, or freak out to the extreme and get themselves banned.

You're espousing the idea that all gays should be registered and monitored by the government.
I didn't think you could actually proffer that idea outside of faggot_haters.org and get away with it.

You do not deserve respect nor politeness.

Alrocsmash:
Homosexuality exists in over 450 animal species. Homophobia exists in only one. Which one seems more unnatural now?

Nature analogies tend to fall apart the moment you remember that rape and cannibalism are considered crimes by human standards.

What about gay people Jim? Won't they be pissed that the gay romances are just shoehorned into the game? I personally dont care either way, the game is shit anyway.

Conza:

Well, for once in a long while, I think this Jimquisition was a wasted opportunity to bag all the whiners complaining about the option in the game... the entire 8 minutes of sarcastic, and horribly cliched dialogue is meant to do that, but giving detail and analysis would've been more interesting, I didn't really find this funny, but for anyone stupid enough not to like ME3 because of the option mentioned in this video, if they were stupid enough not to like it before the video, but still watched the entire video, well I have no idea how they'd feel, hopefully like an idiot at not liking the game in the first place, and realisation that they had no justification for not liking the game?

Anyway, next week will be good, so meh, one mediocre blip is alright.

Damn, well I think between the two episodes, all the right points were made, and the fish slap to all those homophobes was good to see, I still stand by that the first episode was a wasted opportunity, as clear by the fact what that episode should've been, was mostly done in this episode instead, except for the fact that there was a rebuttle component as well.

Now hopefully, the next week will really be something new, so we can move on, I wonder if after both episodes, there are still people stupid enough to think that the game should'nt have this option?

Therumancer:

See, and here you go, beating up your straw man, and this is why I don't take a lot of arguements being made seriously, especially when they claim to represent something I believe or represent which is inaccurate. I recommend you head to Jim's other thread, read what I've actually said on the subject, which might take going back a LOT of posts to the initial statement without the issue of context from specific arguements that can't be taken on it's own, and then get back to me because I'm not going into it again in this thread.

In this case your ignorant and have absolutly no idea who, or what your even argueing with. At the best I'd guess you jumped into the other thread later, and missed the initial points of the discussion and jumped to some incorrect conclusions.

Mind you, I do not expect you to agree with me, but you might be able to form a more relevent and reasoned arguement to whom your actually trying to face the next time this debate surfaces because I'm not going to be slugging it out in this thread, having made my points in regards to this issue already and not seeing the point of an endless political brawl on what amounts to a left wing forum.

But also remember, if you don't keep it polite, you can come up with the best arguements in the world, your not going to get my attention or a response. This goes for pretty much everyone.

You don't seem to understand the concept of a straw man. You are ON RECORD as saying you favour the registration and tracking of homosexuals.

I don't need to build a straw man because you've already gone so far beyond pale.

Darknacht:

Therumancer:
In the end this is about me opposing what amount to demands of entitlement and enforced political correctness, not a result of any other position I might hold.

How do you know that is why it was put in? PR statements don't always reflect the intent of the creators and they could have changed their mind. You are making assumptions and then criticizing others for making different equally, if not more, valid assumptions.
And as far as PC ruining the game you don't have to be gay so it cant ruin your game. Where you not paying attention? If ME3 made you have sex with a guy for every girl you had sex with to balance it out I could understand the problem but you are only gay if you want to be. And according to BioWare this was added in because they wanted to not because they where pressured to, so stop trying to ruin the game by pressuring the creators.

And This brings me to one point and a half to add to someone elses bebate...

Ultimately, like Darknacht says, any choices a company makes about content they are free to make however they choose. And in cases like this I can see a few motivations on such a choice. Such as "gay" Shepard appealing not just to homosexual men, but to straight women as well. Which would amount to "yay! Profit"... And I'm sure that the pressence or lack thereof when it comes to slightly rarer or more secretive acts would not be that much of a blow to their sales figures or even boost either.

Or maybe they were bored and thought it would be fun to try. You know, "art". Or many similar versions of that logic.

And then there might be the fact that M/M relationships being added might just happen to be a reasonable request. Which I can imagine could go along the lines of: "Ehh, we've got time, and it probably won't cost us that much profit (see above where i mention Straight women possibly liking it) Let's 'throw it in".

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