Jimquisition: Mass Effect 3 And The Case For A Gay Shepard

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drivel:

Lord_Gremlin:
Considering the ending of this Jimquisition i think I will share my personal opinion.

Well now, I do have a problem with gay people. Aka they are sick in the head and whatever excuse medics came up in USA when they realized they can't cure them did not just made them normal... Look, curing schizophrenia is not easy either. If possible at all.

Why don't you do yourself a favor and read something instead of being an ignorant troglodyte for the rest of your life?

Is homosexuality a mental disorder?

No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

Of course, science doesn't mean anything to people like you. Your gut feeling is what steers you through life. Hopefully out of the gene pool.

But being an ignorant troglodyte is sooo much easier than opening Google and typing in a few words to acquire an answer.

Seriously though, I'm afraid that you're wasting your time, people like that don't care about whether they're correct or not, only that they can spew their bile and ignorance against others.

I was almost not going to watch this due to a fear that Jim was homophobic. I just got confused by what context he was using the term gay in.

I thought he was just using gay instead of the word "lame" to express his hatred for whatever copyright BS EA is using in their games. Because every time I hear or read gay used in that context, I can't help but feel I'm wasting time with someone else's ignorance.

However I'm happy that it was clarified that he actually meant Male Homosexuals. In which case I'm glad they're finally being represented in Mass Effect 3. But they should have been there in 1 & 2 also.

Oh by the way... really? Pedophilia? Are you serious? The Internet is full of fucking morons.

Nice episode.

TBH i never had problems with gay romances in Mass Effect. I agree that this is an option and if someone is not into it he shouldn't even be exposed to that and people who like it should have it.
But... The way dragon age 2 did it was very bad. I tell you why:
- all characters were bi. This is not even funny, it was just lazy design. If you replay the game it really breaks the immersion. IT IS LAZY! I don't like the idea that genre you pick changes the sexual orientation of all you companions. And btw i maybe would have less problem with this if characters were more than 2D cliches. (Slut sailor, quircky elf [so kawai], edgy final fantasy guy, whiner)
- even if you didn't talk to them at all you companions start to flirt with you. I tell you story from my first run.
"I didn't like anders, he was anoying and he made me very angry whenever he started whining. I didn't play with him at all, i tried to be as mean to him as i could.
And then... He started hiting on me... WTF? I ignored this character almost completly and somehow game forces the flirt"
I dissed him and killed him when i could. Maybe it's because of their stupid system with rivality romance (which is good on paper), anyhow game shouldn't even propose me this romance when during the whole game i dissed his whiny ass. Forced and LAZY DESIGN.
To sum up: gay romances should be in game as an option, but they should be done good and if you ignore someone don't force the flirt, this doesn't make any sense and is disgusting.

God how i hate this game, i understand that they had devoloping cycle of about 1 year... but ehhh... It shouldn't be dragon age 2, just spin off dragon age:awesome or smth. They just milked cash from franchise because TOR was becoming more and more expensive. I just hate what this game represents.

And btw
- When romances in games became one of the main features that even retard mashing the keybord can achive? (radial wheel which shows you what is good and evil, you never have to think about which line will be the best)
I remember when romances were something you had to work on, you know like real ones? I remember when they weren't on tracks and when they didn't happened only on designated areas! I want to feel some conection to the chick i'm banging in game. Ehhh...

There's no case AGAINST a gay Shepard. If you don't want your Shepard to be gay, don't try and bang the male crew members.

Fucking simple.

The only argument that even approaches being worth thinking about is how they implement it, but if the implementation's shoddy you criticise the implementation, not the fact that they're trying to include it.

One excuse I heard last week that you didn't address was that making a gay romance would take resources away from the rest of the game and make it worse as a whole...to which I ask, how is that different from the straight romances?

Hey, I didn't say it was a good argument.

BardicLasher:

SwimmingRock:

I mean, male elves are generally depicted as more feminine and beautiful than their human counterparts, so a race where gender is less distinct might genuinely give less of a shit about gender.

Wait, there are male elves?!? I thought Zevran was just a very handsome woman!

...But seriously, is the entirety of this topic really going to be people commenting on how one guy is uneducated for thinking homosexuality is a mental illness? I think we can just roll our eyes, give him a pat on the head, and send him on his way... .And steal his time machine. But that's a side point.

Jim, great points as usual, and I'd like to say on the topic of last weeks... I didn't watch it. I went in, saw the warning's, paused after less than a minute, read the first few comments, and decided "Nothing to do here." As Jim's points said repeatedly: it's that easy to avoid if the stuff bothers you... And I'll happily admit that I'm sometimes not comfortable in situations involving homosexuals, but I'm also not comfortable in situations involving large dogs, coffee, or mexican food. All personal tastes.

...And I did wind up having my male character bed Zevran, so make of that what you will.

That said, maybe there's a problem with giving achievements and such for the homosexual options. Because unlocking achievements is part of gameplay for a lot of people, and I seem to recall getting one for fucking Zevran.

You get an achievement for romancing Zevran in general, not just for romancing him as a man.

It's sad that this episode was actually necessary.
People need to grow the fuck up.

RatGouf:
I was almost not going to watch this due to a fear that Jim was homophobic. I just got confused by what context he was using the term gay in.

I thought he was just using gay instead of the word "lame" to express his hatred for whatever copyright BS EA is using in their games. Because every time I hear or read gay used in that context, I can't help but feel I'm wasting time with someone else's ignorance.

However I'm happy that it was clarified that he actually meant Male Homosexuals. In which case I'm glad they're finally being represented in Mass Effect 3. But they should have been there in 1 & 2 also.

Apparently, they were all set to include it in ME1 and 2, but maleShep's face model objected to having his face connected to homosexuality, so they cut the gay male options, as well as the female ones (sans Liara) for the sake of fairness.

Daystar Clarion:

Indignator:
Dear Lord. I agree with you Jim, but your counter-arguments are just as weak as the arguments you are trying to refute. No pedophilia is not the same as homosexuality (although there are gay pedophiles), but both are sexual activities that some find deviant and therefore immoral. The morality of homosexuality is a topic that has been debated for decades in the highest (and lowest) echelons of public discourse, and your bold-faced declarations about the matter come off as naive.

What.

You think two consenting men getting their freak on, is of the same level of social discourse as a man forcing himself on an innocent child?

Ouch.

My brain.

No, you misunderstood. The morality of pedophilia is not something that is publicly discussed because it is universally considered immoral.

Here here.
I find it sickening that anybody could possibly say 'Homosexuality = Pedophilia'.
I'm a straight man and very comfortable with my sexuality, but I respect homosexuals and see nothing inherently wrong with it. For those who say 'They are choosing to be Gay!', I say "Bull-fucking-shit" I went through a period while I was in middleschool where rumors got out that I was gay because I was eccentric as a child and it made those 3 years some of the worst years in my life. The taunting, the bullying, the obscene comments nearly drove me into a frenzy, and I respect anybody who can live through that and be comfortable with who they are. Saying that someone 'chose to be gay' is like saying that they chose to be verbally waterboarded for most of their lives.

I accept though that not everyone will agree with this, I can see why others might consider it strange, but I cannot see how you can equate it to raping a child. If you truly believe this, kindly sterilize yourself so we won't have to put up with your bullshit for more than a generation.

Indignator:

Daystar Clarion:

Indignator:
Dear Lord. I agree with you Jim, but your counter-arguments are just as weak as the arguments you are trying to refute. No pedophilia is not the same as homosexuality (although there are gay pedophiles), but both are sexual activities that some find deviant and therefore immoral. The morality of homosexuality is a topic that has been debated for decades in the highest (and lowest) echelons of public discourse, and your bold-faced declarations about the matter come off as naive.

What.

You think two consenting men getting their freak on, is of the same level of social discourse as a man forcing himself on an innocent child?

Ouch.

My brain.

No, you misunderstood. The morality of pedophilia is not something that is publicly discussed because it is universally considered immoral.

Well agree with you there, homosexuality was at a stage once when nobody dared speak about it.

But pedophilia causes nothing but harm, this isn't something that's going to change anytime soon, we're not going to move into an era where it's ever accepted. Homophobia is a result of ignorance. Being against pedophilia is good common sense.

Well, I am bi and i have a problem with Shepard wanting space dick all of a sudden, without any indication that he wanted space dick before. Don't get me wrong, i DON'T have a problem with him wanting to ride Krogans all night long, I have a problem with how it is presented. I want a little coming out sub plot, where people you know react differently, some accept you and some don't. You are a hero, a role model and known thru all the fking galaxy and i would really like to see this aspect explored. Plus, what about Shepard him/her self? Coming out was one of the hardest things i ever done, it had such an emotional impact on me and everybody around me! This magic cock magnetism with Shepard is just insulting to me

I applaud you sir. The dick-bat moment took some real courage. Bravo!

I do not plan on having any homosexuality in my playthroughs of ME3. I am a straight male.

I fully support homosexuality in both ME3 and the world as a whole.

To quote Dr. Cox: "I like the gays. I like their music. I like their sense of style. I especially like what they've done with Christmas."

The reason I didn't get last weeks video is because I hadn't heard any of the backlash against gay Shepard, I didn't know what the video was stabbing at. And well I don't have a huge problem with Shepard being gay, it seems to me that this everything needs a gay character is getting as silly as everything needs on black guy.

Great as usual but he totally missed out on the entitlement argument. Considering how many tits and asses get jammed in our face in most games, homosexual dudes must have it pretty rough.
Then again there is Gears of war....

My favorite thing about Jim I gotta say is how consistant and well thought out his opinions are. (even if i sometimes disagree I never fault where he is coming from) He never seems to contradict himself proving a point and thats the reason I would rather have more respect for him than some of the other people who do opinion pieces on this site.

This video is a bit useless. I've read the comments in last week's video and I didn't read one single good reason why they shouldn't include homosexuality in the game. Pretty much all the comments who were against homosexuality in ME 3 had terrible reasoning.

sindremaster:
How can gay Shepard be retconning when you create your own Shepard? If I went and played Mass Effect 1 right now I could make a gay Shepard if I wanted.

And you can play Mass Effect 1 thinking Shepard is indded Zerg opperative planted by Kerrigan in order to prove this weak alien races before the invasion, that doesn't make it cannon. In the cannon of the previous ME Shepard was a male/female baddass human operative that kicked reapers asses and did straight/lesbian stuff in his freetime, now it's straight/lesbian/gay, thats a addition retcon.

Sure, you can argument that he was always gay, but we had no hints to that, ever, so now he being gay is retcon as much as if he suddenly tunrs a zerg opperative or that a new Starwars writer makes Chewbacca vegan. Not that there's something inherently bad about that, and sure, you retcon is not terrible in a proyect that involved hundreds of creatives over 6-7 years, still it's not something I like and yeah, i want PERFECT writing and hindsight!!!

I watched the scene on Youtube about 30 mins ago and this was basically my chain of thaught:

1.Wow they really made him gay,
2.Only if you want though so theres no problem,
3.But does this make sense, wasn't he straight in the others games
4.No wait we wern't given the option,
5.Anyways he one of them blank slate things... mostly, so shut up me, its not going to effect your game!

I know I just really repeated what Mr.Sterling said but, you'd think it would be obvious. I understand that some people are uncomfortable about this stuff and I think forcing these things down others throats is fairly intolerant but if it doesn't effect you, whats the beef?

Shikua:

Tanakh:
Fun vid, thanks Jim. Still think a gay shepard is (for the most part) retconning, and still think retconning should be avoided as much as possible; but yeah, after last week's thread i say let Shepard be queer and proud of it, that pedophile = gay stuff conviced me that it was actually a neccesary option in ME 3.

It's retconning in a way that brings him back to the way he was intended to be though. ME1 and 2 both have lesbian/gay romance scenes in them, they were just cut, the rumor being because the facial model for maleshep didn't want his face connected to homosexuality.

Should have just put a bag on Shepard's head, from what I've heard, that still counts!

MegaSuperUberMe:
Well, I am bi and i have a problem with Shepard wanting space dick all of a sudden, without any indication that he wanted space dick before. Don't get me wrong, i DON'T have a problem with him wanting to ride Krogans all night long, I have a problem with how it is presented. I want a little coming out sub plot, where people you know react differently, some accept you and some don't. You are a hero, a role model and known thru all the fking galaxy and i would really like to see this aspect explored. Plus, what about Shepard him/her self? Coming out was one of the hardest things i ever done, it had such an emotional impact on me and everybody around me! This magic cock magnetism with Shepard is just insulting to me

How do you know that Shepard was ever in the closet?

Not all gay men obsess over cock all day, everyday. The guy is a soldier, first and foremost. Some people refused to let their Shepard have any love interest in the first 2 games simply because there was no gay option. Now the 3rd game is here, and there is a gay option, those people's Shepards can finally get laid.

Just because Shepard wasn't prancing around, acting gay (which I would find insulting, because I depsise the gay stereotype), doesn't mean he wasn't gay from the very beginning.

Your Shepard can be anything you want him to be.

hey Jim Sterling are you gay? no problem with that im just wondering I feel like you were implying something with being attracted to that big purple dildo and then shoving it in your mouth.

maybe too subtle for me

That's the same excuse people use against gays getting married. 'oh if we let them marry what's to stop a person from marrying their dog or a toaster.' gay = pedophile? I don't think so. People really need to pull their heads out of the 50's and get with the times.

Good, good, all good. Now then, that should shut people up...

Lord_Gremlin:
Considering the ending of this Jimquisition i think I will share my personal opinion.

Well now, I do have a problem with gay people. Aka they are sick in the head and whatever excuse medics came up in USA when they realized they can't cure them did not just made them normal... Look, curing schizophrenia is not easy either. If possible at all.

That said excuses debunked in this video are pathetic indeed.
And pedophilia and homosexuality are indeed vastly different things. That said, both are cases of mental disorder but vastly different ones.

But what's most important here is that developers, Bioware, don't owe anything to anyone. If they want to include whatever new content it is entirely up to them. Your only choice is to either buy their game or don't buy it. It's as simple as that. Attacking writers for example is childish and outrageous. You may disagree with them or consider their creation abysmal.. But the only thing you're entitled to is ability to skip their game and don't buy it.

AW FUCKING BALLS!!!
image

Do I get a gold star for knowing all of this beforehand?
Maybe this additional revisit of the issue would have worked better in a blog post.

Jim,

I didn't comment directly on the video last week because the sheer cuntery of the thread pissed me off, but before I skip back and read the inevitable avalanche of bollocks, thank God for you and for both of these videos.

It's amazing to me that fans of Bioware, of all the fucking studios to rally around, still pull this shit at every game release, and I'm glad there are people like you willing to take the piss out of them for it.

Anyway, back to the bollocks.

Lord_Gremlin:
Well now, I do have a problem with gay people. Aka they are sick in the head and whatever excuse medics came up in USA when they realized they can't cure them did not just made them normal... Look, curing schizophrenia is not easy either. If possible at all.

Firstly, schizophrenia is pretty easy to cure nowadays. Most people with schizophrenia are fine as long as they take basic medication for it, so your point is kind of doubly retarded really.

Secondly, if homosexuality is mental disorder, what psychological dysfunction do you think causes it? Because I know all the things which "the medics" thought caused it when they made it a mental disorder, and they don't exist. Paraesthesia doesn't exist (incidentally, the theory of paeaesthesia is why dumb people believe there's a link between homosexuality and paedophilia). Hormone levels don't make any difference. Levels of attachment to parents don't make any difference.

Homosexuality wasn't removed from the DSM because it couldn't be cured, it was removed because the people who believed it was either couldn't agree on why they thought it was in the first place, or were basing their belief on completely rubbished theories. They were still quoting books from the 1870s to try and justify this point in the 1970s. Your argument lost because it was stupid, outdated and didn't work, it's that simple.

So go on. Why do you think homosexuality is a mental disorder? Tell me what you think "goes wrong" in someone's brain or in their mind to make them gay.

Callate:
It appears that human bisexuality, at least among men, isn't all that common.

Yes, just like exclusive homosexuality among women "isn't all that common".

Why do you think that is? Is it because:

a) Gay men have a special gaydar which means that they know that they're gay from the second they pop out of the womb and instinctively avoid vaginas.

b) Because gay men have a strong community with its own distinct culture which lesbians lack on the same scale, and because.. well..

..(by which I mean female bisexuality is socially acceptable).

You can never do this with sexuality. You can't just look at the census and say "well, that tells me everything I need to know." People often don't know much about their own sexuality, people repress things or even outright lie about their sexuality and as in this case people don't judge their sexuality against an objective standard which applies to everyone. It's not that simple, you can't judge the world as if it is.

I'm a bisexual man myself, and I can tell you that there are people have done a far more equal proportion of both sexes than me who still identify as gay (or as straight for that matter) because it's just easier. They feel "culturally" gay or straight and base their identity of that, and since bisexuality doesn't have the same cultural recognition it's a lot harder for men to identify with.

The only thing that bugs me about is that it makes the NPCs in mass effect, a series praised for it's writing, nothing more than wish fulfillment vessels to the player.

This is a tricky situation because video games are supposed to either be empowered or in control of their world. But, as an example, I actually didn't know you could sleep with Ashley in ME1 and I thought it was because of her religious convictions. This didn't bug me, it earned Bioware kudos from me for writing a good and believable character (I didn't sleep with anyone because Liara wasn't my type).

Now Jacob has had a relationship with Miranda, it's brought up early on in ME2. I never got any gay vibes of Jacob in ME2. But if the player wills it, he can make Jacob gay. If the player doesn't go down the gay route in ME3 Jacob will be heterosexual, if the player goes down the gay route in ME3 Jacob will be homosexual.

This might sound stupid but it bugs me that NPCs are not being written as characters with their own motives, beliefs, etc. and instead are around simply to adapt to what the player wants out of them. I think overall that makes a less compelling story, although a much more compelling power fantasy fulfillment simulator.

How many people do you know who would honestly switch their sexuality at the drop of the hat? or go both ways? I know bi-sexuals exist, but almost everyone in a Bioware game seems to be that way and I think the bi-sexual example is being used as a cover for what I view as poor character development.

I would prefer some more concrete sexuality. Some characters that are purely homo, purely hetero and then some benders. I think it would ultimately lead to stronger characters as their motives are based on their wants instead of mine (as the player).

I've had a gay-Shep since the first one but that's mainly because I never considered the Asari to be genderless. Also...seriously people? Seriously? I'm not buying Mass Effect 3 new because I'm against the series trying to be more like Gears of War since the second and, EA forcing online players to join Origin despite their platform of choice. It's bad enough to shun the game for introducing homosexual elements but not even Dragon Age 2 was as bad as people talked it up to be (although I'm still a bit embittered by Varric never asking to wield my bastard sword and wouldn't be surprised if Garrus doesn't ask either)

Wow... it's shocking to think people still think being gay is as bad as being a pedo, or that it's a mental "disorder". SOme people be fucked up. Seriously, use some common sense people. Thankfully Jim has that by the bucket load.

As for me, giving my Shep the choice to be gay, straight, (alien?), I don't give a shit about it. Seriously. If I want my Shep to bang a chick, then that's what it'll do. If I want to bang a dude, then I'll do that. I play around in these games and like to go through pretty much all the options anyway. Furthermore, it's a game people. A game, which is not suposed to be taken seriously. People who do take this way too seriously, need to wake the fuck up, go outside and see how relationships actually work.

jboking:

Lord_Gremlin:
Considering the ending of this Jimquisition i think I will share my personal opinion.

Well now, I do have a problem with gay people. Aka they are sick in the head and whatever excuse medics came up in USA when they realized they can't cure them did not just made them normal... Look, curing schizophrenia is not easy either. If possible at all.

Define what it is that makes homosexuality a mental illness. Define why, if homosexuality is a mental illness, heterosexuality can't be seen as a mental illness as well.

i may be wrong, but i think he's going on the idea that human beings are hard wired to reproduce, like any animal, it's instinct

but one cannot reproduce with an individual of the same gender, so to stupid fucks like that guy, homosexuality is going against instinct, going against human nature, so he calls it a disorder

however it is not a disorder, humans inherantly desire to mate with other humans, what gender people choose to do it with, is entirely a result of a conscious decision

i'm no expert, hell i'm not even gay, i just like to try to understand things like these

Hopefully next week's episode won't be on Mass Effect 3. Gay content or no, I don't really have a desire to know any more about a series that shined in it's first foray and then went to crap faster then originally thought possible. Unfortunately, not much comes out to watch on a Monday, so I viewed the episode anyway.

Lord_Gremlin:
snip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

I think we should be looking at this the other way, perhaps homophobia is the mental disorder. I mean we consider irrational fears or phobias to be a type of anxiety disorder.

Jim Sterling:
snip

Jimothy Sterling:
snip, not sure if this is an alternative Jim account or not

Also to Jim, I know this will probably be lost in the sea of comments on this thread. But, thank you. I am a homosexual man, and I live in constant fear of the bigotry and hate that gets spewed everyday across the internet, the tv, the news, from the very mouths of my family and co-workers.

Not too far from where I grew up a homosexual man, was beaten to an inch of his life driven out to a field and tied to a bard wire fence where he died of exposure. The men who did it were regular American christian citizens. This is the kind of behavior I fear in my own community and its small things like being able to play a game where I'm not treated the same way that gives me a small feelings of normality.

Seriously, seriously, thank God for Jim. I love his show anyway, but this video was perfection formed from a shitstorm of ignorance. It only makes sense in a game that let's you bang an alien that it should let a dude bang a dude or an (Earth-biology definition) chick bang an (Earth-biology definition) chick. Tbh, not being het should be an option in all free-choice RPGs with romance elements, as that's what the free choice is about and that's what some players want.

But anyway, I absolutely adored this vid, it made me so happy to see this being put across. Thanks, Jim.

I'm going to regret watching this, aren't I?

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