The Big Picture: Not Okay

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sapphireofthesea:

mandalorian2298:

sapphireofthesea:

Mr. Psychology professor. I am aware that this was meant for the non-science crowd. However, being a scientist myself and in the interest of further enforcing the validity of your argument, please provide some references for the points you have made, otherwise you are at risk of finding your own statements fall victim to your line of logic.

I personally find your above, unsupported, statement flawed, without reinforcement, and ignorant of the possibly of collective moralities playing a part in supporting a right or wrong ideal. I am no expert but I am aware of the contention in psychology surrounding the idea of morality. I would love to give references myself but it is late and it is not my field of study so I have no grounding to make an informed search of the literature.

First of all, I am not a psychology professor, I am a philosophy professor. The only reason that I have mentioned that in my post has been to explain why I care deeply about people making the mistake that I described in my post. The validity of my objection should be judged solely on it's coherency and the quality of my reasoning. I do not believe that my academic title, by itself, makes my reasoning more or less sound. For the same reason, I see no need to make a reference to other people's work in order to strengthen my case. Non quis, sed quid. (it doesn't matter who said something, it only matters what they said)

As for collective moralities, I believe that, while it is true that many groups of people share certain moral beliefs or whole moral systems, I do not believe that an opinion, moral or otherwise, becomes more valid simply because more people believe in it. Just because something IS does not prove that it OUGHT to be (Hume's Law). The fact that many people believe in something does not prove their belief to be either correct or moral (the moral system shared by the majority of Germans during Third Reich is a commonly quoted example).

In fact, that whole "many people sharing an opinion make that opinion true, will make a nice rule 5 for my original post:

5. The fact that many people share your opinion does not prove your opinion to an objective truth (if you disagree, then please prove me wrong. Gather a herd of people who also don't believe me and win the lottery 10 times in a row by making everyone share your belief that you are going to win. :)

My issue was less against your argument and more that your argument is unsupported. As best I am aware, even philosophy requires that positions be backed up by some 'evidence', in the case of philosophy I know it to be the opinion of other noted Philosophers.
So please find some references to support your position otherwise your distinction of being a philosophy professor (in support of your position being informed) becomes only as valid as any of the other posters here.

The well informed inform, the Scientific refer.

This is because you do not understand what 'evidence' means. Which would be excusable were it not for the fact that, despite your ignorance of this you are trying to teach me what evidence means. Since you have not even bothered to wiki 'evidence' or 'proof', I most certainly will not do that work for you. I will, however, demonstrate why your opinion (that a 'proper' philosopher can not make an argument without supporting it with a quote of other 'notable' philosopher saying the same thing) is wrong. This is called reductio ad absurdum (again google it or wiki it)

Let us suppose that it is true that every 'proper argument' in philosophy must be supported by quoting a 'notable philosopher'.

For example, let's say that I support argument A, by quoting Kant who also said wrote that A is true. However, if we are considering Kant to be a 'notable philosopher' and are quoting him as such, then we are surely not quoting some trivial thing he said but a 'proper argument'. Then, ex hypothesi, Kant himself must have had quoted some notable philosopher before him, say Plato, who in turn quoted Socrates. But, alas, Socrates quoted no one, because he is the first philosopher to have come up with argument A. This means that A was not a 'proper argument' when Socrates said it, which means that any argument based on A is also not a 'proper argument'.

In other words if there are such people as philosophers (and supposing that human race does not exist eternally , but that it had a beginning) there must have existed one among them who has been the first philosopher. However, since you claim that it is impossible to be a philosopher without quoting philosophers who came before you, there couldn't have been a first philosopher. Which means that there are no such thing as philosophers.

Or you are simply wrong about your hypothesis.

chadachada123:

Father Time:

John Funk:
"What about teh menz?" isn't always the answer.

So you don't think people should bring up rape against males in a discussion about rape in general? Good to know.

John Funk:

Again, refer to "Rape Culture 101."

Nothing in that article refers to how the use of rape in trash talk trivializes it.

How often have you heard "my parents are going to murder me because of my bad grades". Is murder trivialized? No. Far from it.

You can talk about how it makes people uncomfortable and is immature and you'd be right but the idea that it trivializes rape is debatable.

Although I'm only annecdotal, I'm a good example of what you're saying. I use abhorrent language all of the time for a variety of reasons, with the key among all of them being that, unless I intend to offend, I am not trivializing anything by using intense language.

I am one of the most anti-rape people that I know, and freely admit that I would murder or maim someone that raped or molested (forcibly) a family member or friend. It is one of the most serious things to me, and I pay a lot of attention to news related to the law and how they relate to women.

On the other hand, I also pay a lot of attention to this news to watch for cases where men are punished by insane women who lie about being molested, because I'm a male and want to watch out, you know.

Unrelated note, are you the same Father Time from GamePolitics? If so, I totally remember you! I had this username, in the unlikely event that you remember some of my posts.

The logic John was using is no different than the logic people who work for Fox news use when they talk about games making people want to go out and murder.

'He used rape to hypberbolise winning, he's trivialising actual rape and therefore contributing to the rape-culture!'

The sheer amount of hypocrisy in that coming from someone who helps run a website that is constantly railing against those who use that kind of warped logic towards games is almost too much to handle.

The sexist witch hunt continues on the Escapist forums.

It seems like every day is a bad day to be a white hetero male. Because at any given time I am considered a misogynist, a rape apologist, a homophobe or all three--by default viewpoint.

Zachary Amaranth:

Icehearted:
...and yet not a word about misandry. Oh, that's right, it's only awful when it's happening to women. Way to throw more gas on the fire by stating the obvious as unevenly as possible, pretty much like anyone else lamenting the woes of oppressed women these days.

I don't disagree with you, Bob, but another "save the women, damn the men" speech changes what, exactly?

Did you enjoy knocking down that strawman? It seemed therapeutic.

With this video, and these persistent women in gaming discussions (and that panel with Susan Arendt and others), I don't see the straw man, I see persistent lambasting of anyone that isn't a woman or isn't a man that doesn't side with women on this issue as vehemently as possible. Preemptively suggesting that people of an opposing or even a possibly slightly dissimilar viewpoint will become ugly and hostile (I assume the images of angry mobs with pitchforks served as a visual demonstration to that "fact") doesn't exactly jibe with the notion that any disagreement with the points he'd chosen to make can be even a little rational either.

WanderingFool:
Bob, while we may not see eye to eye on different subject, I am fully, 100% backing you on this subject.

RoseArch:
Then why hasn't there been a FemBob yet in your TGO series?

Do... do you really want to see a female version of Bob?

*imagines female version of Bob...*
(O_O)
*stabs out eyes with a knife*

Also, is that a "Legend of Dragoon" avatar? That is awesome.

So true, Bob. So true.

Thank you for standing up and saying this. To many of us get shouted down for expressing what you said today in this video.

So again, Thank you.

I would thank the gods for you, but that's more of a Jim Sterling thing. :p

hooksashands:
The sexist witch hunt continues on the Escapist forums.

It seems like every day is a bad day to be a white hetero male. Because at any given time I am considered a misogynist, a rape apologist, a homophobe or all three--by default viewpoint.

Only if you choose to be. You can always do the brave thing.

I don't support what this disgusting man-baby did, but I'm certainly not going to take responsibility for him and his actions out of some dim sense of "community". The people responsible for this are the people running the show and the guy himself. The vast, vast majority of "gamers" are decent people who are nothing like this guy. Now, beyond that, I suppose we all have a responsibility to speak up when stuff like this goes down, but I just don't buy this as some endemic problem.

Even saying gaming "community" I don't agree with, because it's such a broad stroke of a brush, there are so many people who play games that are so radically different and enjoy different things.

Also, captcha ads? Come on.

Wow. It is amazing how little I care about this.

Seriously.

You could probably replace the slides with just a great big picture of a white knight.

Although, could someone explain to me why it's considered alright for women to bang on about how men are pigs, but the moment a constantly spurned young man starts to vent, hecklers crawl out of the fucking wood work to call him a misogynist douche?

Bob, sir, I wish I could shake your hand. Not only did you address an issue that I want to see more action against. It's not okay. More than that tough. You actually understand the concept of free speech. Thank you.

Vault Citizen:

Volf:

flying_whimsy:
This is probably the most pissed off I've ever heard movie bob sound; I don't blame him, either, as I've said the exact same thing on more than one occasion over the last few years. I remember calling some friends out on throwing the word rape around more casually than I was comfortable with and they looked at me like I grew a second head.

Seriously, nerd culture based sexism is something I would seriously like to see go away. Forever.

using the word rape to mean lose doesn't equate to sexism

Even it that is true its rude and goes beyond what could be called acceptable competitive behaviour.

its rude to curse, but it doesn't stop people from doing it, so that is a silly comment to make.

As for your comment about "acceptable competitive behavior", everything is far game on Xbox Live, and if it helps people win, more power to them.

John Funk:

Volf:

flying_whimsy:
This is probably the most pissed off I've ever heard movie bob sound; I don't blame him, either, as I've said the exact same thing on more than one occasion over the last few years. I remember calling some friends out on throwing the word rape around more casually than I was comfortable with and they looked at me like I grew a second head.

Seriously, nerd culture based sexism is something I would seriously like to see go away. Forever.

using the word rape to mean lose doesn't equate to sexism

No, but it does devalue the concept of rape as one of the most horrifying things a person can do to another human being, and certainly doesn't help deal with widespread rape culture.

Rape Culture 101. Educate yourself.

And when people are hungry and they say they are "starving", it also devalues a very terrible slow death that millions of people suffer from, and yet I don't hear people saying that that word isn't discouraged. So why focus so much on this word? Why not discourage the use of the word "starving"?

/care tbh, I am not going to stop saying any of the mentioned words merely because they are so enjoyable to say ^^

chadachada123:

Father Time:

John Funk:
"What about teh menz?" isn't always the answer.

So you don't think people should bring up rape against males in a discussion about rape in general? Good to know.

John Funk:

Again, refer to "Rape Culture 101."

Nothing in that article refers to how the use of rape in trash talk trivializes it.

How often have you heard "my parents are going to murder me because of my bad grades". Is murder trivialized? No. Far from it.

You can talk about how it makes people uncomfortable and is immature and you'd be right but the idea that it trivializes rape is debatable.

Although I'm only annecdotal, I'm a good example of what you're saying. I use abhorrent language all of the time for a variety of reasons, with the key among all of them being that, unless I intend to offend, I am not trivializing anything by using intense language.

I am one of the most anti-rape people that I know, and freely admit that I would murder or maim someone that raped or molested (forcibly) a family member or friend. It is one of the most serious things to me, and I pay a lot of attention to news related to the law and how they relate to women.

On the other hand, I also pay a lot of attention to this news to watch for cases where men are punished by insane women who lie about being molested, because I'm a male and want to watch out, you know.

Unrelated note, are you the same Father Time from GamePolitics? If so, I totally remember you! I had this username, in the unlikely event that you remember some of my posts.

I don't think murdering or executing people over a crime where no one died is OK (well I'm not a fan of the death penalty in general but executing someone for that seems a little more wrong) but whatever.

And yes that's me, and I remember you posting there (I don't remember any of your posts but I remember you).

It's good to see you. It's been a while since I've been there. Ever since the Supreme Court ruling I don't go there much. You know Andrew Eisen has an account here, not sure if he still posts here.

FYI I'm not giving away any personal info, that's his user name both here and on gamepolitics.

hooksashands:
The sexist witch hunt continues on the Escapist forums.

It seems like every day is a bad day to be a white hetero male. Because at any given time I am considered a misogynist, a rape apologist, a homophobe or all three--by default viewpoint.

When the hell did Bob mention race in this video? Seriously?

And I've never heard him imply that only straight people or men can be sexist/harassing/whatever.

It's just that if you're going to talk about sexism amongst gamers, most of the examples will come from straight men because most gamers are straight men.

If you were to talk about bad behavior from say Twilight fanatics most of your examples would be from straight women for the same reason.

Icehearted:

Zachary Amaranth:

Icehearted:
...and yet not a word about misandry. Oh, that's right, it's only awful when it's happening to women. Way to throw more gas on the fire by stating the obvious as unevenly as possible, pretty much like anyone else lamenting the woes of oppressed women these days.

I don't disagree with you, Bob, but another "save the women, damn the men" speech changes what, exactly?

Did you enjoy knocking down that strawman? It seemed therapeutic.

With this video, and these persistent women in gaming discussions (and that panel with Susan Arendt and others), I don't see the straw man, I see persistent lambasting of anyone that isn't a woman or isn't a man that doesn't side with women on this issue as vehemently as possible. Preemptively suggesting that people of an opposing or even a possibly slightly dissimilar viewpoint will become ugly and hostile (I assume the images of angry mobs with pitchforks served as a visual demonstration to that "fact") doesn't exactly jibe with the notion that any disagreement with the points he'd chosen to make can be even a little rational either.

Conversations about this topic always start up flamewars, Bob's just commenting on that.

It does feel biased at first that it's only about sexism against women but this is a discussion about sexism within gaming. There's not a whole lot of sexism against men in gaming, but if you find some you're free to talk about it.

Really? Bob are you really trying to mobilize gamers to create some sort of political entity? I mean to me that sound silly as usually it's done in terms of race or ethnicity or at least something more serious, but I think the part that really makes me take it as silly is that this group is together for something it does for FUN, something is really wrong when somebody is discriminated based off of that, not that discrimination is right or anything, but the basis of it is really retarded.

I agree with pretty much everything there EXCEPT slut shame, because THAT does need to be called out, on both genders, because it de-humanizes sexuality and is the reason for rape and sexual assault TO BEGIN WITH.

I agree with pretty much everything there EXCEPT slut shame, because THAT does need to be called out, on both genders, because it de-humanizes sexuality and is the reason for rape and sexual assault TO BEGIN WITH.

I agree with pretty much everything there EXCEPT slut shame, because THAT does need to be called out, on both genders, because it de-humanizes sexuality and is the reason for rape and sexual assault TO BEGIN WITH.

I agree with pretty much everything there EXCEPT slut shame, because THAT does need to be called out, on both genders, because it de-humanizes sexuality and is the reason for rape and sexual assault TO BEGIN WITH.

Neaco:

mechanixis:

I say old chap:
Remember people, be politically correct and watch your language. Because that is what gaming should be about.

Captain, scanners are coming up with high liberal hubris.
Great mother of the respectocracy!

You know, for most of us, "don't be an asshole" isn't some kind of huge imposition.

because when people are in direct competition of a violent nature, the important thing is being polite. when a game is over, yeah, act civil. but i cant exactly hold it against someone trying to bring down his opponent with words, demoralizing is just another tactic.

I've sworn in anger at a game. I've screamed in rage at a game. I've cursed a game out. and you know what? that's what I curse out - the game. I don't smack talk my opponent, I don't accuse them of cheating, I just grumble at the game for not counting my hits, or at least not making me suck less than I usually do. If you need to curse something out (and yeah, in the heat of the moment, you don;t generally think to curse yourself out) curse out something inanimate and who isn't an actual live human human being.

Grenge Di Origin:

WanderingFool:
Bob, while we may not see eye to eye on different subject, I am fully, 100% backing you on this subject.

RoseArch:
Then why hasn't there been a FemBob yet in your TGO series?

Do... do you really want to see a female version of Bob?

*imagines female version of Bob...*
(O_O)
*stabs out eyes with a knife*

Also, is that a "Legend of Dragoon" avatar? That is awesome.

Rule 63... can do good, but can do so much more evil...

Also, are you talking about my avatar?

Ritter315:
I agree with pretty much everything there EXCEPT slut shame, because THAT does need to be called out, on both genders, because it de-humanizes sexuality and is the reason for rape and sexual assault TO BEGIN WITH.

I would like to see your proof that it dehumanises sexuality. Also, are you aware you posted that comment 4 times?

Nobody has the right to make assumptions about someone elses behaviour. If someone is promiscuous let them be that way, it does not effect you in any way, shape or form and is just another form of people expressing their own sexualities.

Dehumanises sexuality or just people having a bit of fun? *sigh*

You can state that a lifestyle is not for you without insulting it or declaring it to be worth less than the lifestyle you choose to persue. Let it be stated here that I am far from being promiscuous. Hell, I have kept with my new years resolution of no sex till 2013 (Getting into university matters more to me than getting into bed with someone.) and, bar once, all the sex I have ever had has been within a loving relationship.

But someone can sleep around and still have a loving meaningful relationship with someone. It does not lesser their ability in any way, shape or form. The "Slut Hate" you get from gamers to me sounds too much like, well, gamers being annoyed at the lack of sex they get.

Finally...

Machine Man 1992:
Wow. It is amazing how little I care about this.

Seriously.

You could probably replace the slides with just a great big picture of a white knight.

Although, could someone explain to me why it's considered alright for women to bang on about how men are pigs, but the moment a constantly spurned young man starts to vent, hecklers crawl out of the fucking wood work to call him a misogynist douche?

Well, nothing against you for not caring about issues. Took me till the age of 20 to stand up and start taking a stand within the field of gender politics. Although... Just on a side note, I find it weird how "White Knight" is now used as a derogatory term for... A male who cares about sexism? I guess I just find it weird that there is a derogatory term for men who hate chauvinism.

Anyway, as to your actual point?

Society is inherently sexist. It has been for years. Men enjoy far more perks than women (Tis fact. I will not bother trying to back it up. Because you will ignore my entire argument and label me as a white knight anyway. Which makes me question why I am bothering to reply to your statement. Oh well). Due to the different equality of means enjoyed by different layers of society, well, different parts of our communities can say different things.

Within heterosexual relationships (Let us keep that in mind, we are talking about sexism)...

88% of spouses abused are female, 12% male. So that is a reason why women are allowed to rag on about men.
Rape can only be committed by men (In British Law) and sexual assaults in general are FAR more likely to be committed by men.
Roughly 1 in 5 women will be raped over the course of their lifetime.

Well, those are a few reasons.

So!

Considering women will face constant sexual harassment, greater risk of assault at the hands of the opposite sex and inequality within the home, within the workplace and within society as a whole, they can rag on about how men are bastards all they like.

And considering there are relatively few crimes committed against men by women, when a dude starts to mouth off about how horrible his lot is due to women it comes across as rather rich.

Finally?

It is all about context. Are you blaming WOMEN or A WOMAN? It can make all the different. I blame A WOMAN for my life going off the rails. I do not blame WOMEN for anything.

And, outside of radial feminist movements, it is hard to find women that blame MEN for things and not A MAN. This is an important distinction.

Not all feminists are feminazis.

And not all "White Knights" are limp-wristed apologists or people who worship the ground that women walk on. Some people just care about equality. Because, perhaps, they grew up in a conservative muslim country (Like I did) and saw the true face of inequality.

hooksashands:
The sexist witch hunt continues on the Escapist forums.

It seems like every day is a bad day to be a white hetero male. Because at any given time I am considered a misogynist, a rape apologist, a homophobe or all three--by default viewpoint.

I'm a white male and nearly every day I wake up is pretty good. Honestly, if someone assumes I'm a misogynist, rape apologist, or homophobe, it doesn't bother me until they say something to me about it. At that point, I just simply explain that I am not any of those things. I don't see the issue (It is a very small negative for all the positives I receive for being a white male).

Volf:
And when people are hungry and they say they are "starving", it also devalues a very terrible slow death that millions of people suffer from, and yet I don't hear people saying that that word isn't discouraged. So why focus so much on this word? Why not discourage the use of the word "starving"?

That is a decent argument. Though the difference being that when someone says "starving" they are using hyberbole to say they are hungry, which is the base of 'starving.' Whereas, when someone says they got "Raped" they mean they lost badly, they do not mean they had non-consensual sex forced upon them. The two do not logically extend from one another.

Personal note, Volf - I lurk quite a bit and notice you often have opinions opposed to the common escapist. I was wondering if you were playing devil's advocate, or are just not typical.

I really hate your argument. Not because I disagree, but because of how you presented it. Let me explain:

RazadaMk2:

Ritter315:
I agree with pretty much everything there EXCEPT slut shame, because THAT does need to be called out, on both genders, because it de-humanizes sexuality and is the reason for rape and sexual assault TO BEGIN WITH.

I would like to see your proof that it dehumanises sexuality. Also, are you aware you posted that comment 4 times?

Nobody has the right to make assumptions about someone elses behaviour. If someone is promiscuous let them be that way, it does not effect you in any way, shape or form and is just another form of people expressing their own sexualities.

Dehumanises sexuality or just people having a bit of fun? *sigh*

Let's start here. I agree that the guy you responded to is wrong, but for entirely different reasons. The phrase "Dehumanize" means to deprive of the positive qualities of being human. People being 'sluts' does not deprive sexuality of the positive qualities of being human, because sexuality didn't have them in the first place. To dehumanize, the thing being dehumanized has to be human. If the person wanted to say that it increases objectification or anything else, whatever, but the way he positioned it exposes his lack of understanding of the term at all. and you didn't jump on it. I am a bit disappointed.

But someone can sleep around and still have a loving meaningful relationship with someone. It does not lesser their ability in any way, shape or form. The "Slut Hate" you get from gamers to me sounds too much like, well, gamers being annoyed at the lack of sex they get.

Finally...

You are fighting a stereotype about promiscuous women, and end it with a stereotype of gamers. Poor form, my friend. Poor form.

Well, nothing against you for not caring about issues.

No. Placidity towards issues such as these perpetuate the problem. Those who do not care and do not at least recognize the problem are part of the problem.

Society is inherently sexist. It has been for years. Men enjoy far more perks than women (Tis fact. I will not bother trying to back it up. Because you will ignore my entire argument and label me as a white knight anyway. Which makes me question why I am bothering to reply to your statement. Oh well). Due to the different equality of means enjoyed by different layers of society, well, different parts of our communities can say different things.

Within heterosexual relationships (Let us keep that in mind, we are talking about sexism)...

88% of spouses abused are female, 12% male. So that is a reason why women are allowed to rag on about men.
Rape can only be committed by men (In British Law) and sexual assaults in general are FAR more likely to be committed by men.
Roughly 1 in 5 women will be raped over the course of their lifetime.

Well, those are a few reasons.

So!

You said you weren't going to prove that society is sexist, yet provided one of the biggest proofs that it is. Also, the ability to commit rape being exclusively male doesn't prove that the world is sexist. It's also pretty damn wrong (not the fact, that is correct, rather the UK's opinion on the issue).

Considering women will face constant sexual harassment, greater risk of assault at the hands of the opposite sex and inequality within the home, within the workplace and within society as a whole, they can rag on about how men are bastards all they like.

Extension of this logic: it is okay for women to stereotype, but men cannot.

I don't think you wanted it to end up that way, but that is the extended logic.

And considering there are relatively few crimes committed against men by women, when a dude starts to mouth off about how horrible his lot is due to women it comes across as rather rich.

While the other ones are provably true, the one you stated here isn't. Or, at the very least, it needs to be supported rather than just blatantly stated. It is not what they would call 'common knowledge' and thus can't be just stated and accepted as fact by any critically thinking individual.

It is all about context. Are you blaming WOMEN or A WOMAN? It can make all the different. I blame A WOMAN for my life going off the rails. I do not blame WOMEN for anything.

And, outside of radial feminist movements, it is hard to find women that blame MEN for things and not A MAN. This is an important distinction.

Not all feminists are feminazis.

You're final point is correct, but the middle section is another assertion that can't be proven, and common knowledge would suggest it is wrong. Women do blame Men, just as often as Men blame Women. All genders fall victim to hasty generalizations occasionally.

And not all "White Knights" are limp-wristed apologists or people who worship the ground that women walk on. Some people just care about equality. Because, perhaps, they grew up in a conservative muslim country (Like I did) and saw the true face of inequality.

I feel it probably would have been better said here that "White Knight" is an insult that is not an insult, but overall this is a good ending.

I apologize for the content of this entire post.

Okysho:

8-Bit_Jack:

Okysho:
I agree, rock on bob! Seriously! I can't believe there are people trying to justify this... I haven't seen the clip in quesiton myself, but what the hell is this guy trying to justify?

Love the ending statement there too bob! This is why I watch your show.

Don't congratulate him for calling out a guy if you don't know what he did. It makes you sound like a giant idiot.

I have typed and retyped a post for this thread several times, but i seem to be incapable of doing so without resorting to angry gibbering, so I'll instead say that i mostly agree with bob for once, and leave it at that

Don't assume I don't know what happened because I made a forum post congratulating a guy for a bringing attention to a much needed issue within the gaming culture. It makes you sound like a giant idiot.

I haven't seen the clip, that doesn't mean I don't know what happened. The escapist isn't the only one who reports these things.

I'm not assuming you dont know what's going on because you made a post "congratulating" (not appropriate usage of the word in any modern sense) a loudmouth on his video, but because YOU YOURSELF SAID YOU DON'T KNOW WHATS GOING ON!
"I can't believe there are people trying to justify this... I haven't seen the clip in quesiton myself, but what the hell is this guy trying to justify?"

YOUR EXACT WORDS.

"what the hell is this guy trying to justify?"

watch the clip, learn the issue, THEN go back to worshiping Bob and his all-important thoughts and whims.

jboking:

That is a decent argument. Though the difference being that when someone says "starving" they are using hyberbole to say they are hungry, which is the base of 'starving.' Whereas, when someone says they got "Raped" they mean they lost badly, they do not mean they had non-consensual sex forced upon them. The two do not logically extend from one another.

Huh, I didn't think of it like that, good point.

jboking:

Personal note, Volf - I lurk quite a bit and notice you often have opinions opposed to the common escapist. I was wondering if you were playing devil's advocate, or are just not typical.

Some of the things are D.A. but most are comments I have because I'm
socially moderate(US POV).

Father Time:
When the hell did Bob mention race in this video? Seriously?

Never. I just thought I'd name my demographic since it's featured so much in topics that have to do with misogyny.

Father Time:
And I've never heard him imply that only straight people or men can be sexist/harassing/whatever.

And I didn't imply 'only' those people can be. Bup bup.

Father Time:
It's just that if you're going to talk about sexism amongst gamers, most of the examples will come from straight men because most gamers are straight men.

I know this. We all know this. And most of this majority are also white. See how it all falls into place? I'm glad we agree even if you can't agree you agree.

Father Time:
If you were to talk about bad behavior from say Twilight fanatics most of your examples would be from straight women for the same reason.

It's not the same because the backlash stays with the female fans, not all straight women. Yet when some fat bearded loser flips his shit at a girl in a game tournament, every man is somehow responsible and needs to drop what he's doing and join the crusade against male sexism. We are constantly asked to put aside our lives for the sake of standards and decency, even when we have no direct control over what one individual says or does. Because apparently this Bakhtanian guy isn't just an idiot mouthing off, but some terrifying figurehead of patriarchal society who must be stopped at all costs.

Bob, you sir have my respect, admiration, and most of all my gratitude. Thank you for covering such a difficult topic.

Father Time:

I don't think murdering or executing people over a crime where no one died is OK (well I'm not a fan of the death penalty in general but executing someone for that seems a little more wrong) but whatever.

And yes that's me, and I remember you posting there (I don't remember any of your posts but I remember you).

It's good to see you. It's been a while since I've been there. Ever since the Supreme Court ruling I don't go there much. You know Andrew Eisen has an account here, not sure if he still posts here.

FYI I'm not giving away any personal info, that's his user name both here and on gamepolitics.

Eh, you're probably right from a moral standpoint, because it should be left to the courts to decide, but I can't say that I wouldn't be angry enough to at least kneecap the guy (or girl) if the situation arises. I'm also against the death penalty in all but the most messed up of cases (like Charles Manson-level stuff), yet to me it *might* be worth the jail sentence to kill a rapist with my bare hands. But enough about that; hopefully I'll never be in that position.

But yeah, I haven't been there in a long time either, I had some personal stuff going on, the usual. Good to see that at least both you and Andrew on this site as well, it's a good source of news and has a populous forum section *and* some civility to boot.

Father Time:

John Funk:

Volf:
using the word rape to mean lose doesn't equate to sexism

No, but it does devalue the concept of rape as one of the most horrifying things a person can do to another human being, and certainly doesn't help deal with widespread rape culture.

Rape Culture 101. Educate yourself.

The theory of rape culture always seemed kind of sketchy to me. That author seriously thinks games with rape in them encourage a society where rape is not taken seriously? I'd love to see what evidence she has to support that but I'm guessing it's nothing.

It's not just games with rape in them, it's that it becomes a very tricky quagmire of linking violence, aggression, and (male) sexuality while simultaneously sexually objectifying women and trivializing rape. There's no ONE thing that gets done to support it, but... well, once you start to understand it and see it, there's no unseeing it.

Abandon4093:

It's still a completely null point. We don't condone violence against women, far from it. As a culture we're much more accepting of women being violent to men than vies-versa.

Culturally we are far more likely to condone sexual violence if the woman is the perpetrator. Just look up that bullshit that happened with 'the view' or some other garbage day time chat show. When they brought up the story about that guy having his penis cut off and 3/4 of the panel burst out into fits of laughter and saying her probably deserved it, because he was a guy. They were then forced to do an apology, if that's what you could call it. Can you imagine that with the roles reversed? If a chatshow with male panellists had laughed at a women having her genitalia mutilated. They'd have been fired and probably had legal action brought against them faster than you could blink. I'm not bringing that up to whine about how women get preferential treatment etc, but you can't bring up cultural opinions about sexual violence and then ignore things like double standards.

That isn't an isolated case either. Just look at that experiment.

Are you really going to say that we culturally support violence against women? Because that's just bullshit.

It's true that violence against women by men is considered more acceptable - even funny - by society at large. Is this problematic? Of course. But it's ALSO seated in the inequal status of women, by and large. Women are viewed as weaker and inferior, so ergo violence by them against men isn't something to be taken seriously by large swathes of the populace. They see it akin to a child being violent against an adult.

Yes, it's a problem. But women don't have the social and institutionalized power that men do. So while people not taking violence against men seriously is problematic, it's also problematic when one state (Kansas? Missouri? Around that area, I forget) stops prosecuting domestic violence cases entirely because it can't afford to do so. It shows where the priorities lie.

And on the harmless fetishisation side of things, females being dominant is ever more present in both pop-culture and the bedroom.

...which is, again, a male fantasy. Not that there's anything wrong with sexually aggressive or dominant women in fiction, but it almost always goes hand in hand with a "ingenue vs slut" narrative. How many of those women are the heroes, compared to a virgin "good girl"?

So no, I didn't read down to that part because frankly it's more of the same tripe that always get brought up in conversations like this.

"MOAAR WOMANZ GET WRAPED THERFOR EET MATTERS MUUR!"

Making up a concept such as rape culture and then focusing on it's effects on one gender/sex is so unbelievably hypocritical I can scarcely believe I'm having to point it out.

Women AND men are both the target of sexual violence and assault, to focus on one more than the other is tantamount to saying that one matters more than the other.

Not to mention I doubt the figures on the percentage of women that have been raped in comparison to the percentage of men that have been raped are even close to being accurate. What is it, like an estimated 1 in 6 women report rape or sexual abuse. I'd wager the ratio is even more alarming with men. Because there is an even greater social stigma attached to that, especially if you identify as a heterosexual male and happen to have been raped by another male.

Yes, there is absolutely a stigma against reporting rape if you are a man, and these statistics only cover REPORTED rape. It's almost certainly higher for women, and much higher for men.

But frankly, it does make sense to focus on rape and sexual violence against women more-so than men - not excluding them, but focusing on the women - because not only do men have more institutional power, but it IS more common.

Here's the thing, in blunt facts: A man is more likely to rape somebody than a woman. If we want to prevent somebody from raping somebody, that message needs to be targeted at men. And since men rape women more than they rape men, well.

Should sexual violence against men be ignored? Of course not. But a widespread culture of sexual violence against women (and, it might be added, the "feminization" of men who are sexually violated) lends itself to certain forms of pushback.

I'm pretty much going to put that 'rape culture' BS in the same category as Andrea Dworkins and her theory that all sex is rape because there's penetration.

--snip--

No no no.

You can't just bat that away.

Is saying "murder", "cripple" or any other word being used as a hyperbolic synonym for 'dominate', in the context of competition the same as saying "rape"?

If not, you'd better give me an actual reason. Not some quasi-feminist ramblings about our big bad culture being pro-raping women (because apparently raping men doesn't count) with a list of bias supposedly proving that.

I don't buy into Dworkin's ideas, but I sure as hell buy into the idea of a rape culture. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

And here goes. I'd like you to read this, first: Why Rape Jokes Are Never Okay.

There is a reason that rape is considered very different from "murder" in this sense (and I'm going to just ignore the "cripple" bit, as A.) it's hardly used in the same context and B.) when it is used, it's used in a way that the word has been used for years; i.e. "his economy is crippled" in StarCraft. "Rape" as a synonym for "dominate", however, is a new development in language).

In 2006, there were 17,034 "murders and nonnegligent manslaughters" in the United States. In that same year, there were 92,455 "forcible rapes." This does not include other types of rape, like rape by duress - and as mentioned above, that number is likely to be MUCH higher given that this was just the number of REPORTED forcible rapes. There are some estimates that say that only 20% of rape cases are ever reported. While this may be a particularly highball estimate, we can both agree that this number is likely significantly higher, yes?

Right away, rape and sexual violence is a crime that affects far more people a year than murder. And from a consequence of that, you are more likely to know a rapist than you are to know a murderer (in fact, you probably do. And whoever they are, they sure don't seem like a rapist, because if there were an easy way to identify rapists we'd be doing it already).

Refer back to the article I linked. You read that, right? The vast majority of rapists think that *all men rape.* Now, obviously that's not true. And the idea horrifies most of us non-rapist guys, undoubtedly.

Which is why telling rape jokes, or trivializing rape as a synonym for "defeat in an electronic game" is problematic. Because it reinforces to a rapist viewing that "yeah, this is okay." And that makes it more likely that, y'know, he'll do it. The more trivial the concept of rape becomes, the easier it is for someone who's thought about it to go and do it.

And that's why "rape" is inherently different from "murder". Also, well, going back to the concept of a society that links sex with violence and aggression against women. There is no "murder culture," but there is a "rape culture."

Even if these two things weren't true, the fact that there are so many more people affected by rape than murder every year should be reason enough.

Volf:

John Funk:

Volf:
using the word rape to mean lose doesn't equate to sexism

No, but it does devalue the concept of rape as one of the most horrifying things a person can do to another human being, and certainly doesn't help deal with widespread rape culture.

Rape Culture 101. Educate yourself.

And when people are hungry and they say they are "starving", it also devalues a very terrible slow death that millions of people suffer from, and yet I don't hear people saying that that word isn't discouraged. So why focus so much on this word? Why not discourage the use of the word "starving"?

Father Time:

John Funk:
"What about teh menz?" isn't always the answer.

So you don't think people should bring up rape against males in a discussion about rape in general? Good to know.

John Funk:

Abandon4093:

I assume you mean the 'raping' part.

In that case when someone says "we're murdering you" or "I crippled your ass" (which are phrases I've heard just as much as 'raping' when playing fighting games, sports games and shooters against mates) we should reprimand them for being ignorant as hell because they trivialised murder and being crippled. Both things I'd argue are worse than rape.

It's not a trivialisation, it's got nothing to do with the actual act of rape. It just draws on the connotation of dominance that word evokes.

I really wish we didn't have to bubble wrap our words incase they bounce off the wrong person.

Again, refer to "Rape Culture 101."

Nothing in that article refers to how the use of rape in trash talk trivializes it.

How often have you heard "my parents are going to murder me because of my bad grades". Is murder trivialized? No. Far from it.

You can talk about how it makes people uncomfortable and is immature and you'd be right but the idea that it trivializes rape is debatable.

See my response above.

Meh, was okay. I was hoping Bob would tackle the more interesting aspects of sexism and segregation, but he really just went on a PC rant defending everybody who isn't a white male from generalized politically incorrect remarks. Fine I guess, it's still an issue so there's obviously still a place for rants like this and I can't fault him for getting angry at things like blatant sexual harassment. Though, I don't think the whole issue is as simple or one-sided as Bob is making it out to be.

That said, while you can tell people it's wrong to, say, trivialize rape by using it as a colloquial term, I'd think attempting to actually stamp out such forms of "self-expression" (especially through enforcement) will likely result in a pretty severe backlash. If one feels their rights are being infringed upon, I'd think the backlash will be that much harder.

Just wanna say Bob, I would watch your shows even if you never touched a controversial topic. That said, I don't think I've -ever- heard you get this worked up before, you sounded genuinely angry. I'm not blaming you either, as someome who views gaming as his lifestyle, seeing someone like this who makes the entire gaming community, not just himself or his tournament, look bad, absolutely infuriates me.

Heya bob, I agree with you here. But I did find this funny.

image

versus

image

And we're supposed to somehow believe this isn't proof positive that Capcom are not actually nazis? Oh they didn't know that drawing two S's as slanty Z's didn't mean like WE CAN HAS NAZI TIME NAOW? This here be proof. You won't find this on the mainstream liberal media, thats for sure.

You heard it here first.

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