The Big Picture: Not Okay

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John Funk:

See my response above.

Your response doesn't answer my question

Father Time:

Icehearted:

Zachary Amaranth:

Did you enjoy knocking down that strawman? It seemed therapeutic.

With this video, and these persistent women in gaming discussions (and that panel with Susan Arendt and others), I don't see the straw man, I see persistent lambasting of anyone that isn't a woman or isn't a man that doesn't side with women on this issue as vehemently as possible. Preemptively suggesting that people of an opposing or even a possibly slightly dissimilar viewpoint will become ugly and hostile (I assume the images of angry mobs with pitchforks served as a visual demonstration to that "fact") doesn't exactly jibe with the notion that any disagreement with the points he'd chosen to make can be even a little rational either.

Conversations about this topic always start up flamewars, Bob's just commenting on that.

It does feel biased at first that it's only about sexism against women but this is a discussion about sexism within gaming. There's not a whole lot of sexism against men in gaming, but if you find some you're free to talk about it.

I realize that, and I'm really not here to fight.

As for sexism against men, there are far too many examples to list here, but I'll give you a favorite of mine, "Testikill". Google, it if you wish, and enjoy the hilarity of killing men via brutal sexual violence. Good luck finding the female equivalent, or for that matter, an achievement for shooting women to death in their vagina.

Thank you, Bob.

I realize that forum rules generally require more than that to be considered a valid post, but really, that's all I'd like to say.

Thank you.

chadachada123:

Father Time:

I don't think murdering or executing people over a crime where no one died is OK (well I'm not a fan of the death penalty in general but executing someone for that seems a little more wrong) but whatever.

And yes that's me, and I remember you posting there (I don't remember any of your posts but I remember you).

It's good to see you. It's been a while since I've been there. Ever since the Supreme Court ruling I don't go there much. You know Andrew Eisen has an account here, not sure if he still posts here.

FYI I'm not giving away any personal info, that's his user name both here and on gamepolitics.

Eh, you're probably right from a moral standpoint, because it should be left to the courts to decide, but I can't say that I wouldn't be angry enough to at least kneecap the guy (or girl) if the situation arises. I'm also against the death penalty in all but the most messed up of cases (like Charles Manson-level stuff), yet to me it *might* be worth the jail sentence to kill a rapist with my bare hands. But enough about that; hopefully I'll never be in that position.

But yeah, I haven't been there in a long time either, I had some personal stuff going on, the usual. Good to see that at least both you and Andrew on this site as well, it's a good source of news and has a populous forum section *and* some civility to boot.

The civility is mandated FYI, you can have an intense argument and call ideas stupid but the minute you drag insults into it you get warnings/suspensions.

I wonder though other than censorship in Australia and Germany are there any big political game issues left for GP to regularly cover? JT is disbarred and old news, and with the Supreme Court ruling most game restriction laws are doomed to fail (moreso), and don't look like they'll spring up much anymore.

I guess there is always the next inevitable Fox News whine fest, or hey maybe Rapeplay will be dragged into the spotlight for a third time.

EDIT: They're fine with swearing though, which is great because I definitely would've been banned a while ago otherwise.

Can we please just call this guy out as and suggest the fighting game community get it's shit together?
Why are bashing "Young White Males" again? Why is this apparently acceptable to be used mockingly?
I wouldn't do this to another group of people.

And yet apparently this is all cool because of the actions and positions of some strangers from before I was born? Fuck that.

It's not just this video, it's been the last 30 days or so I've been seeing this hurled around way to much. I'm getting sick of this shit.

Icehearted:

Father Time:

Icehearted:

With this video, and these persistent women in gaming discussions (and that panel with Susan Arendt and others), I don't see the straw man, I see persistent lambasting of anyone that isn't a woman or isn't a man that doesn't side with women on this issue as vehemently as possible. Preemptively suggesting that people of an opposing or even a possibly slightly dissimilar viewpoint will become ugly and hostile (I assume the images of angry mobs with pitchforks served as a visual demonstration to that "fact") doesn't exactly jibe with the notion that any disagreement with the points he'd chosen to make can be even a little rational either.

Conversations about this topic always start up flamewars, Bob's just commenting on that.

It does feel biased at first that it's only about sexism against women but this is a discussion about sexism within gaming. There's not a whole lot of sexism against men in gaming, but if you find some you're free to talk about it.

I realize that, and I'm really not here to fight.

As for sexism against men, there are far too many examples to list here, but I'll give you a favorite of mine, "Testikill". Google, it if you wish, and enjoy the hilarity of killing men via brutal sexual violence. Good luck finding the female equivalent, or for that matter, an achievement for shooting women to death in their vagina.

Don't worry about that. Once David Fincher caves in and agrees to make Se7en the game there will probably be an achievement for stabbing women in their vaginas. (that was just a joke, it was not intended to make any kind of point).

I can't think of any attack against a woman that would be a good comparison to a testicle injury in terms of pain vs. damage vs. effort. I'm not sure if this qualifies but I can see your point *shrug*

18.99PlusTip:
Can we please just call this guy out as and suggest the fighting game community get it's shit together?
Why are bashing "Young White Males" again? Why is this apparently acceptable to be used mockingly?
I wouldn't do this to another group of people.

And yet apparently this is all cool because of the actions and positions of some strangers from before I was born? Fuck that.

It's not just this video, it's been the last 30 days or so I've been seeing this hurled around way to much. I'm getting sick of this shit.

God dammit race was never brought into the discussion. Ever. No one has implied this shit is done by whites disproportionately or any other race.

It is kind of annoying that we're being lectured to like it's our fault or that we think it's OK.

John Funk:

Father Time:

John Funk:

No, but it does devalue the concept of rape as one of the most horrifying things a person can do to another human being, and certainly doesn't help deal with widespread rape culture.

Rape Culture 101. Educate yourself.

The theory of rape culture always seemed kind of sketchy to me. That author seriously thinks games with rape in them encourage a society where rape is not taken seriously? I'd love to see what evidence she has to support that but I'm guessing it's nothing.

It's not just games with rape in them, it's that it becomes a very tricky quagmire of linking violence, aggression, and (male) sexuality while simultaneously sexually objectifying women and trivializing rape. There's no ONE thing that gets done to support it, but... well, once you start to understand it and see it, there's no unseeing it.

I don't doubt that. It seems like she just takes anything problematic involving rape and labels it rape culture. For instance teens knowing how to rape is rape culture? It's not that complicated if you have an unconscious person. It certainly isn't a sign that our culture doesn't take rape seriously.

John Funk:

Yes, it's a problem. But women don't have the social and institutionalized power that men do. So while people not taking violence against men seriously is problematic, it's also problematic when one state (Kansas? Missouri? Around that area, I forget) stops prosecuting domestic violence cases entirely because it can't afford to do so. It shows where the priorities lie.

What an awkward way or working in that men have institutional power. Not that that prevents them from having domineering controlling wives who are also abusive.

I'm pretty much going to put that 'rape culture' BS in the same category as Andrea Dworkins and her theory that all sex is rape because there's penetration.

--snip--

No no no.

You can't just bat that away.

Is saying "murder", "cripple" or any other word being used as a hyperbolic synonym for 'dominate', in the context of competition the same as saying "rape"?

If not, you'd better give me an actual reason. Not some quasi-feminist ramblings about our big bad culture being pro-raping women (because apparently raping men doesn't count) with a list of bias supposedly proving that.

I don't buy into Dworkin's ideas, but I sure as hell buy into the idea of a rape culture. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

And here goes. I'd like you to read this, first: Why Rape Jokes Are Never Okay.

They provide no links to any of the alleged studies about how rapists think all men rape, so since it's completely unsourced ...

There are some estimates that say that only 20% of rape cases are ever reported. While this may be a particularly highball estimate, we can both agree that this number is likely significantly higher, yes?

Well I don't know how they got the 20% so no.

Which is why telling rape jokes, or trivializing rape as a synonym for "defeat in an electronic game" is problematic. Because it reinforces to a rapist viewing that "yeah, this is okay." And that makes it more likely that, y'know, he'll do it. The more trivial the concept of rape becomes, the easier it is for someone who's thought about it to go and do it.

That seems way too simplistic. It's one thing to think it's trivial when you're just thinking about it. It's another to still think it's trivial when you're trying to do it and seeing first hand that it's hurting someone.

Also there's a reason why rape jokes are called dark humor. Most people who think they're funny acknowledge that they are sick jokes in a way that sex jokes aren't. And since they're called sick jokes well that kind of reinforces that rape is bad.

Father Time:

18.99PlusTip:
Can we please just call this guy out as and suggest the fighting game community get it's shit together?
Why are bashing "Young White Males" again? Why is this apparently acceptable to be used mockingly?
I wouldn't do this to another group of people.

And yet apparently this is all cool because of the actions and positions of some strangers from before I was born? Fuck that.

It's not just this video, it's been the last 30 days or so I've been seeing this hurled around way to much. I'm getting sick of this shit.

God dammit race was never brought into the discussion. Ever. No one has implied this shit is done by whites disproportionately or any other race.

It is kind of annoying that we're being lectured to like it's our fault or that we think it's OK.

I'm just quoting the video.

While I agreed with his point (it's great seeing the internet's userbase expand), that snide tone of his comment near the start just felt needless.

This has come up in a few other topics lately this last month. People are hurling "Entitled Young White Males" around as an insult and the generalization is just getting tiring.

In retrospect, probably should have skipped posting that, as it's pretty irrelevant to what the core of the video was about.
But I felt it was just worth saying, rather then just let shit like that slip by.

I can get behind the anti-bully message. But that little rant about "last place it's okay to talk like this" rang a bit hallow.
Women rip on guys like this all the time. Some (the more immature) have little sessions where they go to do this and complain that all men are sexist evil pigs trying to oppress them. Adverts constantly pander with that "Huuuu Stupid Men!" trope. Using male derogatory terminology happens all the time (in this very video infact, Bob did this several times). It's just the done thing.
Generally, I'm alright with that because I'm thick skinned enough to take it and have a laugh at my own expense. But no one would DARE call them out on that as "bullying" even though that is essentially what it is.
Why is this Okay?
Why are some insular and vindictive cultures allowed, but we only call out specific one's on their bullshit?

It's double standards again. And it's not the first time Bob seems to be supporting these.

Father Time:

I don't doubt that. It seems like she just takes anything problematic involving rape and labels it rape culture. For instance teens knowing how to rape is rape culture? It's not that complicated if you have an unconscious person. It certainly isn't a sign that our culture doesn't take rape seriously.

Problematic things involving rape ARE part of rape culture. Some to more extent than others. For example, teens knowing that you could use roofies, or whatever. I don't think that's a particularly SIGNIFICANT problem, but everything contributes a little bit.

What an awkward way or working in that men have institutional power. Not that that prevents them from having domineering controlling wives who are also abusive.

We're not talking about an individual man with an individual wife. I've dealt with this on a personal scale, myself. But that does not change my institutional power and male privilege, nor does it change the situation for the vast majority of men and women. Yes, domestic violence is horrible no matter who it's from/towards. Nobody's denying that.

They provide no links to any of the alleged studies about how rapists think all men rape, so since it's completely unsourced ...

--

Well I don't know how they got the 20% so no.

Can't find the "Rapists think all men rape" study, but an official UK government report found that between 75%-95% of all rapes go unreported. In the US, from 2000-2005, it was 59%. Better, but not by much.

That seems way too simplistic. It's one thing to think it's trivial when you're just thinking about it. It's another to still think it's trivial when you're trying to do it and seeing first hand that it's hurting someone.

Also there's a reason why rape jokes are called dark humor. Most people who think they're funny acknowledge that they are sick jokes in a way that sex jokes aren't. And since they're called sick jokes well that kind of reinforces that rape is bad.

And yet you're still being asked to make light of it. You're asking a rape survivor to laugh at one of the most traumatic events in her life.

Rape jokes are not okay. Using 'rape' as a synonym for 'defeat' is not okay. Ever.

Volf:

John Funk:

See my response above.

Your response doesn't answer my question

You asked:

"And when people are hungry and they say they are "starving", it also devalues a very terrible slow death that millions of people suffer from, and yet I don't hear people saying that that word isn't discouraged. So why focus so much on this word? Why not discourage the use of the word "starving"?"

A.) 'Starving' is the word of a terrible condition, but it is not one foisted upon somebody by another human being. 'Rape' is.

B.) In trivializing rape, we are indirectly making it easier for someone to rationalize or justify it to themselves.

C.) Part of it is, admittedly, location and relative class privilege. Not many people are starving here in the States or in the UK. Rape is a much bigger problem than starvation. Is it fair? Well, that depends - it's people discussing an issue that matters more personally to THEM, as it's one they're more likely to encounter.

And hell, in many countries where they're starving, the rape statistics are through the roof anyway.

18.99PlusTip:
Can we please just call this guy out as and suggest the fighting game community get it's shit together?
Why are bashing "Young White Males" again? Why is this apparently acceptable to be used mockingly?
I wouldn't do this to another group of people.

And yet apparently this is all cool because of the actions and positions of some strangers from before I was born? Fuck that.

It's not just this video, it's been the last 30 days or so I've been seeing this hurled around way to much. I'm getting sick of this shit.

You realize how stupid it sounds to say that you feel that as a "young, white male" you are being opressed? I mean, I just wanted you to know it sounds really stupid.

Revolutionaryloser:

18.99PlusTip:
Can we please just call this guy out as and suggest the fighting game community get it's shit together?
Why are bashing "Young White Males" again? Why is this apparently acceptable to be used mockingly?
I wouldn't do this to another group of people.

And yet apparently this is all cool because of the actions and positions of some strangers from before I was born? Fuck that.

It's not just this video, it's been the last 30 days or so I've been seeing this hurled around way to much. I'm getting sick of this shit.

You realize how stupid it sounds to say that you feel that as a "young, white male" you are being opressed? I mean, I just wanted you to know it sounds really stupid.

I didn't say that. Please don't try twist what I said or put words in my mouth.

I'm saying I'm sick of that being used as an insult/way to dismiss any argument. That's not "being oppressed".
Oppression is fucking serious and I'm wouldn't dare suggest I am.

18.99PlusTip:

Revolutionaryloser:

18.99PlusTip:
Can we please just call this guy out as and suggest the fighting game community get it's shit together?
Why are bashing "Young White Males" again? Why is this apparently acceptable to be used mockingly?
I wouldn't do this to another group of people.

And yet apparently this is all cool because of the actions and positions of some strangers from before I was born? Fuck that.

It's not just this video, it's been the last 30 days or so I've been seeing this hurled around way to much. I'm getting sick of this shit.

You realize how stupid it sounds to say that you feel that as a "young, white male" you are being opressed? I mean, I just wanted you to know it sounds really stupid.

I didn't say that. Please don't try twist what I said or put words in my mouth.

I'm saying I'm sick of that being used as an insult. That's not "being oppressed".
Oppression is fucking serious.

Nobody is using "young, white male" as an insult. I think you are projecting. I think it would be much more constructive if instead of just looking for reasons to feel victimized, you actually did something to fix the problem.

John Funk:

A.) 'Starving' is the word of a terrible condition, but it is not one foisted upon somebody by another human being. 'Rape' is.

True, but that doesn't change the fact that using both terms so casually, trivializes both of them. So again, why not ask people to not use the word "starving"?

John Funk:
B.) In trivializing rape, we are indirectly making it easier for someone to rationalize or justify it to themselves.

...what? How do you make that leap? Also does that mean that by trivializing the condition of starving, "we are indirectly making in easier for someone to rationalize or justify [the concept of starving people]"?

John Funk:
C.) Part of it is, admittedly, location and relative class privilege. Not many people are starving here in the States or in the UK. Rape is a much bigger problem than starvation. .

So then would you not have a problem with people from countries where the criminal act of rape is low, to say that a recent exam "raped" them?

If rape jokes aren't okay, then why do I still laugh if I hear a good one?

I don't believe in heaven. Too fruity for my tastes.

I believe in something greater. You, sir, should earn a place in Valhalla for giving the biggest bitch-slap to the pretentious fuck-heads of the Internet world. By the gods, if you were standing before me I'd shake the shit out of your hand. Great show.

jboking:
I really hate your argument. Not because I disagree, but because of how you presented it. Let me explain:

RazadaMk2:

Ritter315:
I agree with pretty much everything there EXCEPT slut shame, because THAT does need to be called out, on both genders, because it de-humanizes sexuality and is the reason for rape and sexual assault TO BEGIN WITH.

I would like to see your proof that it dehumanises sexuality. Also, are you aware you posted that comment 4 times?

Nobody has the right to make assumptions about someone elses behaviour. If someone is promiscuous let them be that way, it does not effect you in any way, shape or form and is just another form of people expressing their own sexualities.

Dehumanises sexuality or just people having a bit of fun? *sigh*

Let's start here. I agree that the guy you responded to is wrong, but for entirely different reasons. The phrase "Dehumanize" means to deprive of the positive qualities of being human. People being 'sluts' does not deprive sexuality of the positive qualities of being human, because sexuality didn't have them in the first place. To dehumanize, the thing being dehumanized has to be human. If the person wanted to say that it increases objectification or anything else, whatever, but the way he positioned it exposes his lack of understanding of the term at all. and you didn't jump on it. I am a bit disappointed.

But someone can sleep around and still have a loving meaningful relationship with someone. It does not lesser their ability in any way, shape or form. The "Slut Hate" you get from gamers to me sounds too much like, well, gamers being annoyed at the lack of sex they get.

Finally...

You are fighting a stereotype about promiscuous women, and end it with a stereotype of gamers. Poor form, my friend. Poor form.

Well, nothing against you for not caring about issues.

No. Placidity towards issues such as these perpetuate the problem. Those who do not care and do not at least recognize the problem are part of the problem.

Society is inherently sexist. It has been for years. Men enjoy far more perks than women (Tis fact. I will not bother trying to back it up. Because you will ignore my entire argument and label me as a white knight anyway. Which makes me question why I am bothering to reply to your statement. Oh well). Due to the different equality of means enjoyed by different layers of society, well, different parts of our communities can say different things.

Within heterosexual relationships (Let us keep that in mind, we are talking about sexism)...

88% of spouses abused are female, 12% male. So that is a reason why women are allowed to rag on about men.
Rape can only be committed by men (In British Law) and sexual assaults in general are FAR more likely to be committed by men.
Roughly 1 in 5 women will be raped over the course of their lifetime.

Well, those are a few reasons.

So!

You said you weren't going to prove that society is sexist, yet provided one of the biggest proofs that it is. Also, the ability to commit rape being exclusively male doesn't prove that the world is sexist. It's also pretty damn wrong (not the fact, that is correct, rather the UK's opinion on the issue).

Considering women will face constant sexual harassment, greater risk of assault at the hands of the opposite sex and inequality within the home, within the workplace and within society as a whole, they can rag on about how men are bastards all they like.

Extension of this logic: it is okay for women to stereotype, but men cannot.

I don't think you wanted it to end up that way, but that is the extended logic.

And considering there are relatively few crimes committed against men by women, when a dude starts to mouth off about how horrible his lot is due to women it comes across as rather rich.

While the other ones are provably true, the one you stated here isn't. Or, at the very least, it needs to be supported rather than just blatantly stated. It is not what they would call 'common knowledge' and thus can't be just stated and accepted as fact by any critically thinking individual.

It is all about context. Are you blaming WOMEN or A WOMAN? It can make all the different. I blame A WOMAN for my life going off the rails. I do not blame WOMEN for anything.

And, outside of radial feminist movements, it is hard to find women that blame MEN for things and not A MAN. This is an important distinction.

Not all feminists are feminazis.

You're final point is correct, but the middle section is another assertion that can't be proven, and common knowledge would suggest it is wrong. Women do blame Men, just as often as Men blame Women. All genders fall victim to hasty generalizations occasionally.

And not all "White Knights" are limp-wristed apologists or people who worship the ground that women walk on. Some people just care about equality. Because, perhaps, they grew up in a conservative muslim country (Like I did) and saw the true face of inequality.

I feel it probably would have been better said here that "White Knight" is an insult that is not an insult, but overall this is a good ending.

I apologize for the content of this entire post.

jboking:
I really hate your argument. Not because I disagree, but because of how you presented it. Let me explain:

RazadaMk2:

Ritter315:
I agree with pretty much everything there EXCEPT slut shame, because THAT does need to be called out, on both genders, because it de-humanizes sexuality and is the reason for rape and sexual assault TO BEGIN WITH.

I would like to see your proof that it dehumanises sexuality. Also, are you aware you posted that comment 4 times?

Nobody has the right to make assumptions about someone elses behaviour. If someone is promiscuous let them be that way, it does not effect you in any way, shape or form and is just another form of people expressing their own sexualities.

Dehumanises sexuality or just people having a bit of fun? *sigh*

Let's start here. I agree that the guy you responded to is wrong, but for entirely different reasons. The phrase "Dehumanize" means to deprive of the positive qualities of being human. People being 'sluts' does not deprive sexuality of the positive qualities of being human, because sexuality didn't have them in the first place. To dehumanize, the thing being dehumanized has to be human. If the person wanted to say that it increases objectification or anything else, whatever, but the way he positioned it exposes his lack of understanding of the term at all. and you didn't jump on it. I am a bit disappointed.

But someone can sleep around and still have a loving meaningful relationship with someone. It does not lesser their ability in any way, shape or form. The "Slut Hate" you get from gamers to me sounds too much like, well, gamers being annoyed at the lack of sex they get.

Finally...

You are fighting a stereotype about promiscuous women, and end it with a stereotype of gamers. Poor form, my friend. Poor form.

Well, nothing against you for not caring about issues.

No. Placidity towards issues such as these perpetuate the problem. Those who do not care and do not at least recognize the problem are part of the problem.

Society is inherently sexist. It has been for years. Men enjoy far more perks than women (Tis fact. I will not bother trying to back it up. Because you will ignore my entire argument and label me as a white knight anyway. Which makes me question why I am bothering to reply to your statement. Oh well). Due to the different equality of means enjoyed by different layers of society, well, different parts of our communities can say different things.

Within heterosexual relationships (Let us keep that in mind, we are talking about sexism)...

88% of spouses abused are female, 12% male. So that is a reason why women are allowed to rag on about men.
Rape can only be committed by men (In British Law) and sexual assaults in general are FAR more likely to be committed by men.
Roughly 1 in 5 women will be raped over the course of their lifetime.

Well, those are a few reasons.

So!

You said you weren't going to prove that society is sexist, yet provided one of the biggest proofs that it is. Also, the ability to commit rape being exclusively male doesn't prove that the world is sexist. It's also pretty damn wrong (not the fact, that is correct, rather the UK's opinion on the issue).

Considering women will face constant sexual harassment, greater risk of assault at the hands of the opposite sex and inequality within the home, within the workplace and within society as a whole, they can rag on about how men are bastards all they like.

Extension of this logic: it is okay for women to stereotype, but men cannot.

I don't think you wanted it to end up that way, but that is the extended logic.

And considering there are relatively few crimes committed against men by women, when a dude starts to mouth off about how horrible his lot is due to women it comes across as rather rich.

While the other ones are provably true, the one you stated here isn't. Or, at the very least, it needs to be supported rather than just blatantly stated. It is not what they would call 'common knowledge' and thus can't be just stated and accepted as fact by any critically thinking individual.

It is all about context. Are you blaming WOMEN or A WOMAN? It can make all the different. I blame A WOMAN for my life going off the rails. I do not blame WOMEN for anything.

And, outside of radial feminist movements, it is hard to find women that blame MEN for things and not A MAN. This is an important distinction.

Not all feminists are feminazis.

You're final point is correct, but the middle section is another assertion that can't be proven, and common knowledge would suggest it is wrong. Women do blame Men, just as often as Men blame Women. All genders fall victim to hasty generalizations occasionally.

And not all "White Knights" are limp-wristed apologists or people who worship the ground that women walk on. Some people just care about equality. Because, perhaps, they grew up in a conservative muslim country (Like I did) and saw the true face of inequality.

I feel it probably would have been better said here that "White Knight" is an insult that is not an insult, but overall this is a good ending.

I apologize for the content of this entire post.

jboking:
I really hate your argument. Not because I disagree, but because of how you presented it. Let me explain:

RazadaMk2:

Ritter315:
I agree with pretty much everything there EXCEPT slut shame, because THAT does need to be called out, on both genders, because it de-humanizes sexuality and is the reason for rape and sexual assault TO BEGIN WITH.

I would like to see your proof that it dehumanises sexuality. Also, are you aware you posted that comment 4 times?

Nobody has the right to make assumptions about someone elses behaviour. If someone is promiscuous let them be that way, it does not effect you in any way, shape or form and is just another form of people expressing their own sexualities.

Dehumanises sexuality or just people having a bit of fun? *sigh*

Let's start here. I agree that the guy you responded to is wrong, but for entirely different reasons. The phrase "Dehumanize" means to deprive of the positive qualities of being human. People being 'sluts' does not deprive sexuality of the positive qualities of being human, because sexuality didn't have them in the first place. To dehumanize, the thing being dehumanized has to be human. If the person wanted to say that it increases objectification or anything else, whatever, but the way he positioned it exposes his lack of understanding of the term at all. and you didn't jump on it. I am a bit disappointed.

But someone can sleep around and still have a loving meaningful relationship with someone. It does not lesser their ability in any way, shape or form. The "Slut Hate" you get from gamers to me sounds too much like, well, gamers being annoyed at the lack of sex they get.

Finally...

You are fighting a stereotype about promiscuous women, and end it with a stereotype of gamers. Poor form, my friend. Poor form.

Well, nothing against you for not caring about issues.

No. Placidity towards issues such as these perpetuate the problem. Those who do not care and do not at least recognize the problem are part of the problem.

Society is inherently sexist. It has been for years. Men enjoy far more perks than women (Tis fact. I will not bother trying to back it up. Because you will ignore my entire argument and label me as a white knight anyway. Which makes me question why I am bothering to reply to your statement. Oh well). Due to the different equality of means enjoyed by different layers of society, well, different parts of our communities can say different things.

Within heterosexual relationships (Let us keep that in mind, we are talking about sexism)...

88% of spouses abused are female, 12% male. So that is a reason why women are allowed to rag on about men.
Rape can only be committed by men (In British Law) and sexual assaults in general are FAR more likely to be committed by men.
Roughly 1 in 5 women will be raped over the course of their lifetime.

Well, those are a few reasons.

So!

You said you weren't going to prove that society is sexist, yet provided one of the biggest proofs that it is. Also, the ability to commit rape being exclusively male doesn't prove that the world is sexist. It's also pretty damn wrong (not the fact, that is correct, rather the UK's opinion on the issue).

Considering women will face constant sexual harassment, greater risk of assault at the hands of the opposite sex and inequality within the home, within the workplace and within society as a whole, they can rag on about how men are bastards all they like.

Extension of this logic: it is okay for women to stereotype, but men cannot.

I don't think you wanted it to end up that way, but that is the extended logic.

And considering there are relatively few crimes committed against men by women, when a dude starts to mouth off about how horrible his lot is due to women it comes across as rather rich.

While the other ones are provably true, the one you stated here isn't. Or, at the very least, it needs to be supported rather than just blatantly stated. It is not what they would call 'common knowledge' and thus can't be just stated and accepted as fact by any critically thinking individual.

It is all about context. Are you blaming WOMEN or A WOMAN? It can make all the different. I blame A WOMAN for my life going off the rails. I do not blame WOMEN for anything.

And, outside of radial feminist movements, it is hard to find women that blame MEN for things and not A MAN. This is an important distinction.

Not all feminists are feminazis.

You're final point is correct, but the middle section is another assertion that can't be proven, and common knowledge would suggest it is wrong. Women do blame Men, just as often as Men blame Women. All genders fall victim to hasty generalizations occasionally.

And not all "White Knights" are limp-wristed apologists or people who worship the ground that women walk on. Some people just care about equality. Because, perhaps, they grew up in a conservative muslim country (Like I did) and saw the true face of inequality.

I feel it probably would have been better said here that "White Knight" is an insult that is not an insult, but overall this is a good ending.

I apologize for the content of this entire post.

You made some good points and picked up on me not picking him up on the dehumanizes something that is not human front. Just saying it was past 2am so I was not truly on form.

There are relatively few crimes committed by women against men. In comparison to the amount of crimes committed by men against women, at least. I will try and pull some statistics when I get home from College (About to set off)

Yes, I threw that gamer-stereotype, perhaps that was uncalled for. I retract my comment and replace it with the following:
"Butthurt young-adults who do not fully understand why women are avoiding them and therefore have come to the conclusion that women must be fundamentally flawed due to noone wishing to commit sexual acts with them". It has nothing to do with being a gamer. I am a gamer and always have been. Never thought less of anyone who has a lot of sex. When I was young I wanted to be them (And lose weight). Now that I am 20 I think them reckless but that is all.

The argument that they are making sex unimportant is similar in my eyes to the entire "HOMOSEXUALS ARE GOING TO RUIN MARRIAGE". The argument makes absolutely no sense. What two consenting adults do is none of your business. And what one adult does with several consenting adults, well, that is none of your business.

Does my lengthier argument make sense?

Oh, and as for the stereotype thing?

Yeah, in a way that is what I am saying.

Because the vast majority of males I have met during my life have been insensitive, immature, sex-obsessed assholes. Maybe if we did more to fight the stereotype, well, I would join those that are not ok with it. But whilst we come up with insults for those that wish to bunk the trend (White Knight) and we define masculinity in ways which can be seen as detrimental to the "Fairer" sex, well, what do we expect as a species?

Volf:

John Funk:

A.) 'Starving' is the word of a terrible condition, but it is not one foisted upon somebody by another human being. 'Rape' is.

True, but that doesn't change the fact that using both terms so casually, trivializes both of them. So again, why not ask people to not use the word "starving"?

John Funk:
B.) In trivializing rape, we are indirectly making it easier for someone to rationalize or justify it to themselves.

...what? How do you make that leap? Also does that mean that by trivializing the condition of starving, "we are indirectly making in easier for someone to rationalize or justify [the concept of starving people]"?

John Funk:
C.) Part of it is, admittedly, location and relative class privilege. Not many people are starving here in the States or in the UK. Rape is a much bigger problem than starvation. .

So then would you not have a problem with people from countries where the criminal act of rape is low, to say that a recent exam "raped" them?

See the link I posted earlier re: Rape Jokes, to answer your Point B. And Point A too, now that i think about it.

and re: Point C, no. Nobody should use it, anywhere. "Starving" is an exaggeration of an extant condition - i.e, I am very hungry. It's hyperbolic, and yes unfortunate, but it's at least the same condition being talking about. "Rape" should only be used about the forcible sexual domination of another human being.

Do not trivialize rape. Period. Why is this a hard concept?

This argument keeps running around in circles. It's not okay to trivialize rape, but murder is trivialized more often in real life, especially in video games. Just because it particularly offends people when a rape joke is told, doesn't mean everybody should feel the same way. The only way I can see it being inappropriate if it can be translated into a real threat.

So assuming we're on the same page here;

Saying something like "Oh shit you're killing me" when someone, say, tells you a hilariously funny joke, is completely okay.

Telling someone "Oh shit you're getting completely raped" whenever talking shit with your friends over a game of Twisted Metal or Mario Party is not okay, is sexist and people should feel terrible and burn in hell for doing that.

I can agree on Aris being an asshole taking it too far at a public event and this being exactly the reason why only "community professionals" such as Seth Killian, UltraDavid, James Chen and Keits are the only ones commenting on events like EVO, but I dunno, the above line of discussion kind of reeks of double standards.

The whole problem here with this video is that there is nothing we can do about attitudes like this.

As well-spirited as it is, Bob's simply making a very general assault on the gaming community, one that has grown to be so enormous, a term like 'gaming community' becomes redundant.

No one can control what people will do and say, be it going on sexist diatribes or equivocating rape with owned.

The latter is an rather inane thing to get angered over. Yes rape is a serious and traumatic issue, but think about it realistically: Will a 15 year old care in a moment of excitement within a game? No. Over time, they'll (hopefully) grow up and not trivialize the term, and that's all we can hope for.

As for the sexist comments, again, most 15-20 gamers will simply grow out of using them, but there will always be some exceptions, with troubled individuals like Bakhtanian existing in gaming.

However, Bakhtanian has already been called out for his actions, vilified within gaming circles, and forced to apologize. He probably won't be changed as a person by this event, but it shows that the majority of gamers/ people think sexism isn't okay.

And that's where it should end.

But unfortunately, this is a catalyst for Bob to dogmatically looking down on gamers on the whole (again), needlessly insult people with notions of "needing sunlight" (why?), and apply sexism to be some sort of inherent issue within gaming culture.

Problem here is, sexism is a problem within CULTURE. Same as racism or homophobia. And realistically, it's not going anywhere. People have the freedom to say whatever they feel, and while they can be punished and ostracized for it, they nonetheless have that original freedom.

Now, is that a perfect politically-correct world? No, but it's the world regardless, and if we try and stop people from expressing opinions, offensive as they may be, we'll get into the disgusting world that is censorship, which is unacceptable within games or reality.

So what am I supposed to ascertain from this video?

Sexism is not okay? Trivializing words like "rape" is bad?

Last I checked I'd done neither in recent memory and knew both were not socially acceptable.

But I'm more than aware those opinions aren't a problem solely within the gaming community or communities, and shouldn't be treated as such.

Sexism, racism, homophobia, and general immaturity within people will always exist. People either grow out of it or they don't (and rightly get called out for it, as seen by Mr. Bakhtanian).

Sorry Bob, but I have to echo a previous notion,

"Why are we even talking about this?"

There's nothing we/ you can do about an issue like this.

Your overt feminist ideals are growing rather tiresome Bob.

Stop painting gamers out to be misogynist overweight pigs. Like equivocating the term "rape" with "owned", it's very immature and a narrow outlook on a cultural problem.

Masterdebator:

.........
Your overt feminist ideals are growing rather tiresome Bob.

Stop painting gamers out to be misogynist overweight pigs. Like equivocating the term "rape" with "owned", it's very immature and a narrow outlook on a cultural problem.

I'm here totally agree with you, sir. Of course Bob is right too. But that's the problem here.

Bob, you're trying too hard to be right. The world we live in is not right, and that IS OKAY. Because if you'll try to make it right you might end up being another Hitler or something.

Yeah, some things offend some people. Deal with it! Stop being such crybabies.

Ok, I might not live in America, and I just don't get it. But in my country if someone offend you - you hit them in the face with a big solid stone. And then you drink vodka together.

mandalorian2298:

sapphireofthesea:

mandalorian2298:

First of all, I am not a psychology professor, I am a philosophy professor. The only reason that I have mentioned that in my post has been to explain why I care deeply about people making the mistake that I described in my post. The validity of my objection should be judged solely on it's coherency and the quality of my reasoning. I do not believe that my academic title, by itself, makes my reasoning more or less sound. For the same reason, I see no need to make a reference to other people's work in order to strengthen my case. Non quis, sed quid. (it doesn't matter who said something, it only matters what they said)

As for collective moralities, I believe that, while it is true that many groups of people share certain moral beliefs or whole moral systems, I do not believe that an opinion, moral or otherwise, becomes more valid simply because more people believe in it. Just because something IS does not prove that it OUGHT to be (Hume's Law). The fact that many people believe in something does not prove their belief to be either correct or moral (the moral system shared by the majority of Germans during Third Reich is a commonly quoted example).

In fact, that whole "many people sharing an opinion make that opinion true, will make a nice rule 5 for my original post:

5. The fact that many people share your opinion does not prove your opinion to an objective truth (if you disagree, then please prove me wrong. Gather a herd of people who also don't believe me and win the lottery 10 times in a row by making everyone share your belief that you are going to win. :)

My issue was less against your argument and more that your argument is unsupported. As best I am aware, even philosophy requires that positions be backed up by some 'evidence', in the case of philosophy I know it to be the opinion of other noted Philosophers.
So please find some references to support your position otherwise your distinction of being a philosophy professor (in support of your position being informed) becomes only as valid as any of the other posters here.

The well informed inform, the Scientific refer.

This is because you do not understand what 'evidence' means. Which would be excusable were it not for the fact that, despite your ignorance of this you are trying to teach me what evidence means. Since you have not even bothered to wiki 'evidence' or 'proof', I most certainly will not do that work for you. I will, however, demonstrate why your opinion (that a 'proper' philosopher can not make an argument without supporting it with a quote of other 'notable' philosopher saying the same thing) is wrong. This is called reductio ad absurdum (again google it or wiki it)

Let us suppose that it is true that every 'proper argument' in philosophy must be supported by quoting a 'notable philosopher'.

For example, let's say that I support argument A, by quoting Kant who also said wrote that A is true. However, if we are considering Kant to be a 'notable philosopher' and are quoting him as such, then we are surely not quoting some trivial thing he said but a 'proper argument'. Then, ex hypothesi, Kant himself must have had quoted some notable philosopher before him, say Plato, who in turn quoted Socrates. But, alas, Socrates quoted no one, because he is the first philosopher to have come up with argument A. This means that A was not a 'proper argument' when Socrates said it, which means that any argument based on A is also not a 'proper argument'.

In other words if there are such people as philosophers (and supposing that human race does not exist eternally , but that it had a beginning) there must have existed one among them who has been the first philosopher. However, since you claim that it is impossible to be a philosopher without quoting philosophers who came before you, there couldn't have been a first philosopher. Which means that there are no such thing as philosophers.

Or you are simply wrong about your hypothesis.

So in effect, no, you have nothing to support your view so it is just your opinion and your status does not add or subtract any more to it. Just wanted to clarify that.

I agree completely and I'm happy that somebody points out that people have obligations as well as rights. I do not know how it is in the States, but at least here in Finland we seem to have all the rights but almost no obligations (with the exceptions of having to pay taxes and the obligatory army/civil service). One should take responsibility for the actions even if they seems insignificant to some.

PS. Please do not refrain from making more of these "non-fun" episodes. It is one of the reasons I enjoy checking out the Escapist Magazine almost every other day.

I literally have nothing to add to this. A great video, a great point once again expressed with balance and finesse. Keep it up, Bob

I hereby vow to never ever use the word "rape" again as a casual synonym for defeat.

You have my word Bob.

Aircross:
I hereby vow to never ever use the word "rape" again as a casual synonym for defeat.

You have my word Bob.

Then you might as well go through your entire vocabulary and start rooting out any other terms that may offend people.

RazadaMk2:

Ritter315:
I agree with pretty much everything there EXCEPT slut shame, because THAT does need to be called out, on both genders, because it de-humanizes sexuality and is the reason for rape and sexual assault TO BEGIN WITH.

I would like to see your proof that it dehumanises sexuality. Also, are you aware you posted that comment 4 times?

Nobody has the right to make assumptions about someone elses behaviour. If someone is promiscuous let them be that way, it does not effect you in any way, shape or form and is just another form of people expressing their own sexualities.

Dehumanises sexuality or just people having a bit of fun? *sigh*

You can state that a lifestyle is not for you without insulting it or declaring it to be worth less than the lifestyle you choose to persue. Let it be stated here that I am far from being promiscuous. Hell, I have kept with my new years resolution of no sex till 2013 (Getting into university matters more to me than getting into bed with someone.) and, bar once, all the sex I have ever had has been within a loving relationship.

But someone can sleep around and still have a loving meaningful relationship with someone. It does not lesser their ability in any way, shape or form. The "Slut Hate" you get from gamers to me sounds too much like, well, gamers being annoyed at the lack of sex they get.

Finally...

Machine Man 1992:
Wow. It is amazing how little I care about this.

Seriously.

You could probably replace the slides with just a great big picture of a white knight.

Although, could someone explain to me why it's considered alright for women to bang on about how men are pigs, but the moment a constantly spurned young man starts to vent, hecklers crawl out of the fucking wood work to call him a misogynist douche?

Well, nothing against you for not caring about issues. Took me till the age of 20 to stand up and start taking a stand within the field of gender politics. Although... Just on a side note, I find it weird how "White Knight" is now used as a derogatory term for... A male who cares about sexism? I guess I just find it weird that there is a derogatory term for men who hate chauvinism.

Anyway, as to your actual point?

Society is inherently sexist. It has been for years. Men enjoy far more perks than women (Tis fact. I will not bother trying to back it up. Because you will ignore my entire argument and label me as a white knight anyway. Which makes me question why I am bothering to reply to your statement. Oh well). Due to the different equality of means enjoyed by different layers of society, well, different parts of our communities can say different things.

Within heterosexual relationships (Let us keep that in mind, we are talking about sexism)...

88% of spouses abused are female, 12% male. So that is a reason why women are allowed to rag on about men.
Rape can only be committed by men (In British Law) and sexual assaults in general are FAR more likely to be committed by men.
Roughly 1 in 5 women will be raped over the course of their lifetime.

Well, those are a few reasons.

So!

Considering women will face constant sexual harassment, greater risk of assault at the hands of the opposite sex and inequality within the home, within the workplace and within society as a whole, they can rag on about how men are bastards all they like.

And considering there are relatively few crimes committed against men by women, when a dude starts to mouth off about how horrible his lot is due to women it comes across as rather rich.

Finally?

It is all about context. Are you blaming WOMEN or A WOMAN? It can make all the different. I blame A WOMAN for my life going off the rails. I do not blame WOMEN for anything.

And, outside of radial feminist movements, it is hard to find women that blame MEN for things and not A MAN. This is an important distinction.

Not all feminists are feminazis.

And not all "White Knights" are limp-wristed apologists or people who worship the ground that women walk on. Some people just care about equality. Because, perhaps, they grew up in a conservative muslim country (Like I did) and saw the true face of inequality.

Oh, so sexism is okay as long as a it's a woman being sexist towards men because they get the short stick the most?

That is the very definition of a double standard. The original thought of the video was that SEXISM IS BAD, it shouldn't matter if it's a man or a woman.

By "white knight" I'm referring to people who crusade against a perceived or actual injustice long past the point most people stopped giving a shit.

Also, I don't care about whatever shit hand you were dealt in life. You're just a voice on the internet, one of a vast tremulous throng I have no emotional connection to.

Oh, and one more thing... thanks for responding.

Hrm... Well if I'm honest I find this hard to take seriously. Because I find sexism, racism and homophobia hard to take seriously.

I mean these things are wrong.So wrong that I don't understand how anyone could seriously hold those views, its just insane and irrational.

Which is why I use homophobic, racist and sexist insults. Because its funny. Its funny BECAUSE ITS SO WRONG. Surely I'm not alone in this view?

I make fun of women for sexist reasons all the time, but that's the point. Its just fun. I'll tell a woman they're crap at driving, they'll tell me I can't multitask. I dont HONESTLY hold those views and I don't understand how anyone but an utter, UTTER, moron could.

I just think that denouncing ANYONE who makes these comments as being an idiot is a bit over the top. Surely context and intent are incredibly important?

On the topic of the guy who was mentioned in the street fighter thing, well he's obivously one of the morons. But its not like that means ANYONE who uses these terms, in a light-hearted way, is too.

TheNose:

Aircross:
I hereby vow to never ever use the word "rape" again as a casual synonym for defeat.

You have my word Bob.

Then you might as well go through your entire vocabulary and start rooting out any other terms that may offend people.

You so raped his post.

TheNose:
This argument keeps running around in circles. It's not okay to trivialize rape, but murder is trivialized more often in real life, especially in video games. Just because it particularly offends people when a rape joke is told, doesn't mean everybody should feel the same way. The only way I can see it being inappropriate if it can be translated into a real threat.

Just to add this in. I have a friend who was raped. Proper raped. Not some girl who wanted to, then changed her mind, then cried rape.

Literally, grabbed, forced into sexual intercourse and then left.
This has left a permanent scar on her life,one she struggles with to this day. I take what happened to her incredibly seriously.

That said, I totally tell people that they have been raped when I pwn them at video games.I find it highly offensive that it's being implied I'm some kind of pig who has no sense of the seriousness of sexual assault.

CONTEXT!

John Funk:

Father Time:

I don't doubt that. It seems like she just takes anything problematic involving rape and labels it rape culture. For instance teens knowing how to rape is rape culture? It's not that complicated if you have an unconscious person. It certainly isn't a sign that our culture doesn't take rape seriously.

Problematic things involving rape ARE part of rape culture. Some to more extent than others. For example, teens knowing that you could use roofies, or whatever. I don't think that's a particularly SIGNIFICANT problem, but everything contributes a little bit.

What an awkward way or working in that men have institutional power. Not that that prevents them from having domineering controlling wives who are also abusive.

We're not talking about an individual man with an individual wife. I've dealt with this on a personal scale, myself. But that does not change my institutional power and male privilege, nor does it change the situation for the vast majority of men and women. Yes, domestic violence is horrible no matter who it's from/towards. Nobody's denying that.

They provide no links to any of the alleged studies about how rapists think all men rape, so since it's completely unsourced ...

--

Well I don't know how they got the 20% so no.

Can't find the "Rapists think all men rape" study, but an official UK government report found that between 75%-95% of all rapes go unreported. In the US, from 2000-2005, it was 59%. Better, but not by much.

That seems way too simplistic. It's one thing to think it's trivial when you're just thinking about it. It's another to still think it's trivial when you're trying to do it and seeing first hand that it's hurting someone.

Also there's a reason why rape jokes are called dark humor. Most people who think they're funny acknowledge that they are sick jokes in a way that sex jokes aren't. And since they're called sick jokes well that kind of reinforces that rape is bad.

And yet you're still being asked to make light of it.

No I have not. All I've said is that they don't trivialize rape. I still think it's not cool to spring rape jokes on people who don't want to hear them.

John Funk:

You're asking a rape survivor to laugh at one of the most traumatic events in her life.

You act like they're the only people I can tell rape jokes too.

John Funk:

Rape jokes are not okay. Using 'rape' as a synonym for 'defeat' is not okay. Ever.

I disagree.

John Funk:

Do not trivialize rape. Period. Why is this a hard concept?

It "hard" for my to get how using the word starving is ok, or saying that "my backpack is so heavy, it's killing me" can be considered ok. Yet somehow using the word rape is crossing the line.

The main reason why I get annoyed seeing rape as a synonym for defeat is because...well...it doesn't make sense. When used in video games, the definition just doesn't match up for what's happening. It's not even like saying "I killed you" where it's at least in the ball park, if just a bit hyperbolic.

Using rape as your verb in a situation like that doesn't fit. You may as well say you baked them or you climbed them for all the sense it actually makes

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