The Big Picture: Not Okay

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 . . . 16 NEXT
 

Thank you, Bob.

I once scolded a person in my guild for exactly what you mentioned. And I was really glad my guild joined me in not letting any excuse for such behavior fly.

I hope this attitude you so eloquently presented spreads ALL over the internet.

Nice one, Bob.

Cheesy movies are great too, of course.

wizzy555:

Uber Waddles:

Part of the reason things will never change is because as a community, we are fractured. We all belong to the same community, but a large portion (mostly on the younger side, but there are quite a few naive older people) don't act like they are part of the community. They don't care about the community as a whole, standards we'd like to uphold, or making the medium better. They're just there cause its the cool thing to do, explosions are cool, or for sheer, mind melting entertainment. Thats never going away either.

Why should they? If entry into the gaming community is defined as playing video games why should they care about anything except playing the games they want to play.

But entry into the video gaming community isnt defined as playing video games. There are plenty of people who play video games, everything from solitaire to angry birds to halo, which don't view themselves as gamers. Being a part of the community means more than you like to play games.

I cannot say that I've been watching over FGC for a long time (to tell the truth, I started watching matches only when SF4 came out), but I must say, that IMHO there are 2 groups with MAJOR differences between them: Professionals and, well, lets, call us usuals.

Usuals are guys who either play for fun or play to win via shameless tactics (projectile spamming is only one example) and the main threat comes from latter, because they take this stuff to seriously and publicly rage and swear and call those who lost to them newbs and those who won (insert swearing here). There are guys and girls like this in every gaming community, where there is at least some form of multiplayer.

Professionals, on the other hand, are Guys (yes, from capital) like Combofiend, Gootecks and Ultra David, who know how to play the game and play at competitive scene. They tend to act mature towards their game. I cannot say that they do not rage, but if they do, their rage is not directed towards person, but rather is just burst of emotions. Aris is but exeption from the rule and even so, inbefore this incident, he always acted like offensive, but charming guy. It is yet for me to see the footage that is the subject of this discussion, though.

What I mean to say is that I refuse to name ragers as part of community. Do not make your assumptions based on their behavior. They do not represent what it truly is: the community of guys that really like their game and greet every newcomer with open arms.

I am not saying that my words are ultimate truth, but that is my opinion.

Too bad it's not a high traffic topic because it's a damn good topic.

Really no need for the geek culture to be only white middle class and overly straight. Girls can bring a lot to geek culture so it's rather shameful when part of geek culture wants to be some version of the He Man Woman Hater's Club from the Three Stooges or the Little Rascals.

I've got no problem with saying a female gamer kicked my ass at a game because some of the girls playing games these days have some amazing skills at those games. Doesn't make me any less of a man to say the more skilled player beat me fair and square, even if that player doesn't pee standing up.

I disagree with the idea that this coach using sexual harassment as a way of "motivating" his player has to anything to do with the gaming culture. Did this happen at a gaming event? Sure, but it also happens every day in EVERY SPORT.

Back when I did waterpolo in high school I had a coach like this my freshman year whose "motivational" skills went as far as calling everyone on the team "pansy ass faggots" and throwing chairs in the pool from frustration if our team ever got scored on. I've heard similar stories from friends I've had who played other sports, and this was especially prevalent in our wrestling coach.

So yeah, this isn't a problem endemic to gaming or the "fighting game culture" as this asshole claims, it's a part of sports in general and the idea that coaches have put in their heads that they somehow own their players and can treat them like crap.

wizzy555:

Uber Waddles:

Part of the reason things will never change is because as a community, we are fractured. We all belong to the same community, but a large portion (mostly on the younger side, but there are quite a few naive older people) don't act like they are part of the community. They don't care about the community as a whole, standards we'd like to uphold, or making the medium better. They're just there cause its the cool thing to do, explosions are cool, or for sheer, mind melting entertainment. Thats never going away either.

Why should they? If entry into the gaming community is defined as playing video games why should they care about anything except playing the games they want to play.

Well, for one, I never said they should. But if you want an honest answer, I'll give you one.

We should care because it matters. In every sense you can think of. You like playing videogames? Without a strong community, you get game developers who walk all over their client base. They can do various things, restricting DRM seems to be the top gunner right now. A more recent example is the scrutiny that BioWare is under for the "From Ashes" DLC, which was finished pre-production, and is being sold for $10 instead of included with new copies of the game (like previous DLC's). This DLC pack includes plot points, so if you didnt get the Collectors edition, and you want to get the most out of the game, you're gonna sink an extra $10.

And who do you think fights against those practices? Not all of the boycotts are successful, mostly because of the mentioned fracturing, but a lot of companies will reconsider consumer-unfriendly concepts due to massive backlash. A strong community stops ALL of us from getting trampled on with.

Also, I'm pretty sure that since you like playing Videogames, you probably don't want to see them taxed for being violent? How about censored based on content? Or making M rated videogames banned from commercial store shelves? All legislation that has fallen over the last two years because people decided to get vocal. Even if you just like playing the mindless rot that most of the collected community hates, its the community that stands up for your right to play it, the way the developer wanted you to play it, without anyone saying "thats not fit, get rid of it".

And it kinda really hurts the community that the loud minority are the people that don't really care for gaming as a whole. You won't see the Frat Bro's who play CoD get up in arms over a tax on violent videogames, or unfriendly consumer practices. The issues we face wont be solved by the 13 year olds who shout the N word at people or who threaten to kill to people because they're upset. Most of the time, its the collected community who has to backtrack and fix the issues that mainstream society sees are there because a few bad apples represent gaming as a whole.

Not all games are about binding, torturing, and killing people. A collective community tries to make sure that people actually see that games are more than just a 'branch of Hasboro gone horribly wrong', and that they have cultural and societal impacts.

I still can't believe that this kind of crap STILL happens!
The only thing I find even MORE unbelievable is that there are people that actually justify it.

It's total BULLSHIT and doesn't belong anywhere,; Especially in anything community based.

wizzy555:

Uber Waddles:

Part of the reason things will never change is because as a community, we are fractured. We all belong to the same community, but a large portion (mostly on the younger side, but there are quite a few naive older people) don't act like they are part of the community. They don't care about the community as a whole, standards we'd like to uphold, or making the medium better. They're just there cause its the cool thing to do, explosions are cool, or for sheer, mind melting entertainment. Thats never going away either.

Why should they? If entry into the gaming community is defined as playing video games why should they care about anything except playing the games they want to play.

Because that's selfish. No matter what group you're apart of, at some level, you are representative of that group. What Bob wants is for gamers to realize that most people hate gamers, and that one rotten apple is all it takes to ruin the patch, because that's all the media will focus on right now. In Bob's example, that guy made all people who play fighting games look like douches. Is that fair to the rest of the fighting game community, most of whom I hope don't feel the same way?

It isn't okay to enjoy your hobby while degrading women and making other members of your hobby look like dicks who you assume share your messed-up view of the world.

Windu23:

Qitz:


I find it funny how they used Starcraft as a bad thing. What's bad about it? From most competitions I've seen they tend to get along pretty well, even when they cheese the hell out of each other.

It's a good thing these guys put themselves out though. That way you can smack some of that BS down, which they need to do some more.

It's because the Starcraft community and FGC are diametrically opposed. When people talk about making fighting games into an esport, they always say things like "why can't you be more like those Starcraft guys" and that makes the members of the FGC feel marginalized. They fought (no pun) to get where they are with, really, little to no outside help. The FGC is really homegrown, and when you have that much devoted into something, people coming in to mess with that feels deeply wrong, and they get very territorial.

I feel the need to point to this article again to better illustrate that point, because I'm just not as well versed in the finer details as others.

Its also because there is some history there with the guy that asked him. Jared was part of the Starcraft community management team, he was one of the people that worked there to give that community mass popularity and appeal and at some point he was brought to the SF community by Capcom to do the same thing there. Of course, that was seen as a threat by those that were in the community for a long time since one of the first things to get that was to "sanitize" it...

So, Starcraft was not just used in the response as a particular example of eSport (the same way he could have said Halo or COD), but as a reference to the person that made the question in the first place, most of which is put out of context...

Qitz:


I find it funny how they used Starcraft as a bad thing. What's bad about it? From most competitions I've seen they tend to get along pretty well, even when they cheese the hell out of each other.

It's a good thing these guys put themselves out though. That way you can smack some of that BS down, which they need to do some more.

Waitaminute. Let me see if I got this right. The full transcript of the interview is there, showing him that he feels he's justified in being a misogynist asshole (ladies and gentlemen, take a good look. This is what misogyny really looks like.) then when the retaliation gets a fever pitch, he then "apologizes" saying he's sorry that EVERY ONE ELSE misunderstood the subtle nuances of his misogyny.

Have I got that right? I would say it's time that his sponsors and supporters pulled out. Make him realize that there ARE consequences for his actions.

I like the dig on the Starcraft community when they pride themselves being a little more mature than other esports.

I'd like to start by saying I think this is one of your best videos, Bob. At least one of the best hosted on the Escapist (as that's all I watch). It was very good viewing too, by the way. I generally tend to prefer the videos spouting obscure facts about obscure series than ones where you argue a point (Maybe because I don't always agree...) but this episode was just very well done.

You made some excellent points, and you made them very well. It was stuff that needed to be said, and needs to be said more than once, and needs to be said very clearly and loudly. Gaming is already at a disadvantage - We can't even afford to be as lax as the more accepted forms of media - We have to strive to be the best, to be unmatched, just so we can be seen as acceptable. And though not everyone is causing the problem, many are pretending there is no problem, and many more just don't care. We all need to work at this.

Bravo.

It is these kind of videos that need to be shared and understood. This was a superb video with excellent points. We all enjoy the comic book/old weird tv shows/ hollywood history lessons, but every now and then, a bomb needs dropping. Cheers Bob. Don't go changing on us.

CronoT:
I tend to avoid and criticize pro-gaming, and this is one of the major reasons for doing so. With the rare exception, the personality of most "Professional Gamers" can be summed up in the term douchebag.

You know I actually had the same opinion until I got a chance to cover an MLG event awhile back. While there is undoubtedly some (and perhaps some communities are more prone than others). I think it is more a situation of the more vocal minority drowning out the quiet majority. Everyone we talked to or interviewed was super chill and behaved sportsmanlike in their matches.

I might even go a step further to postulate that the actually professionals are ok, but it's the people riding just below that edge that are the real problem.

Great episode Bob.

As a semi-retired-member of the fighting game community I've always been troubled by the stuff you see in some tournament video's. The class acts like James Chen, UltrDavid, Seth Killian and the like getting wedged between groups of loudmouthed swearing types who keep claiming that 'everybody gets it' and that there's no problem.

"You don't lose when you admit that there's a problem, you lose when you fail to address it."
I can't count the number of times I've had to try to pound this into people's heads.

And its extremely sad to see this be a problem in so many places.

To admit you made a mistake during a debate doesn't make you lose the entire debate, its how you recover and pass the point back or move on to the next one. Dropping the ball and letting the opposing team score doesn't mean you should be put on the bench, its how you make sure you don't do it again the next time a similar situation comes up.

LordLundar:

Waitaminute. Let me see if I got this right. The full transcript of the interview is there, showing him that he feels he's justified in being a misogynist asshole (ladies and gentlemen, take a good look. This is what misogyny really looks like.) then when the retaliation gets a fever pitch, he then "apologizes" saying he's sorry that EVERY ONE ELSE misunderstood the subtle nuances of his misogyny.

Have I got that right? I would say it's time that his sponsors and supporters pulled out. Make him realize that there ARE consequences for his actions.

Yup, that's pretty much what he said both times in a nutshell. You forgot the part where he comes off as superior but yeah.

Slycne:

CronoT:
I tend to avoid and criticize pro-gaming, and this is one of the major reasons for doing so. With the rare exception, the personality of most "Professional Gamers" can be summed up in the term douchebag.

You know I actually had the same opinion until I got a chance to cover an MLG event awhile back. While there is undoubtedly some (and perhaps some communities are more prone than others). I think it is more a situation of the more vocal minority drowning out the quiet majority. Everyone we talked to or interviewed was super chill and behaved sportsmanlike in their matches.

I might even go a step further to postulate that the actually professionals are ok, but it's the people riding just below that edge that are the real problem.

Heres an idea on taking care of that. Don't give those guys ANY coverage and when they bitch, tell them to act better if they want better coverage.

Okay, while I agree that this is a problem, I disagree that it's any more of a problem in gaming than in other places. I think sexism in general is a problem, and the reason we notice it in gaming is because we have a tendency to talk to more people while online. Think of a single night of Halo or Call of Duty and the sheer number of people you interact with. Of course a few of them are going to be douchebags.

I agree with everything you said, but I think that gaming does get a bad rap for these sorts of things when it's not solely a gaming problem. Look at the music industry, and look at the sports industry. I've seen my fair share of athletes mistreat women, and the music industry seems to want to objectify them as much as possible.

This is proof that the gaming community as a whole needs to mature. Yeah, we get it, we like to have fun in a style and propensity that's not common in individuals who normally have a job, responsibilities, taxes, other personal burdens and what have you, but this is no excuse to behave like a caterwauling man-child.

I absolutely agree with you, Bob. We need to set an example for the rest of us to see, for the non-gamers to acknowledge as a positive display of gaming as a whole. The sooner we manage to turn the idea of a socially responsible and independent mature adult as being the *actual* stereotype all gamers should try to adhere to, the better the community's going to be as a whole.

I don't really appreciate it when a corporation tells me it needs my real name for its own purposes, but the RealID system Blizzard's set in place seems like a tiny step in the right direction. I'd even be in favor of all gamers' complete coordinates being made available if the risk of being trolled to death is what it takes for some of these douchebags to behave. We don't see this type of verbal abuse spread so outwardly outside of online communities precisely because anonymity is what fosters this kind of abuse.

To which you might retort that fighting game communities don't really deal with anonymity. They're the last great bastion for true competitive couch gameplay, right? No online hassles required, right? Well, wrong. The idiots fostering the idea that MLG players are asshats chain opponents together without getting the chance to know them, and consider verbal abuse as being part of some sort of diversionary tactic. This also needs to change.

It should be made clear that it doesn't matter if you're a pro gamer or just a casual fan; demoralizing other players makes you out to be a complete asshat.

Except as far as Zergling rushes are considered. Zergling rushes are a wonderful way to demoralize your opponent. Best of all, they don't require slurs or insults. You can demolish your adversary and still be quite civil about it. :)

To be fair, the Starcraft folks can be mean as well, not that mean, but "worth avoiding" mean.

Dirty Hipsters:
I disagree with the idea that this coach using sexual harassment as a way of "motivating" his player has to anything to do with the gaming culture. Did this happen at a gaming event? Sure, but it also happens every day in EVERY SPORT.

Back when I did waterpolo in high school I had a coach like this my freshman year whose "motivational" skills went as far as calling everyone on the team "pansy ass faggots" and throwing chairs in the pool from frustration if our team ever got scored on. I've heard similar stories from friends I've had who played other sports, and this was especially prevalent in our wrestling coach.

So yeah, this isn't a problem endemic to gaming or the "fighting game culture" as this asshole claims, it's a part of sports in general and the idea that coaches have put in their heads that they somehow own their players and can treat them like crap.

Well, I think the point Bob was going for here was that it's going to be wrong in more than one community. I'm pretty sure that was the exact point he was going for.

Couldn't have said it better myself, and could not agree more with this weeks Big Picture. I'm a transgender and I've literally been told before that the reason I sometimes suck at video games is because "I spend all my time trying to look like a woman and that's just stupid."

That is unfathomably idiotic and insulting, yet it constitutes banter in the gaming world. And that's MILD compared to some of the stuff both men and women face on even just one chatroom of a call of duty game.

Qitz:

LordLundar:

Waitaminute. Let me see if I got this right. The full transcript of the interview is there, showing him that he feels he's justified in being a misogynist asshole (ladies and gentlemen, take a good look. This is what misogyny really looks like.) then when the retaliation gets a fever pitch, he then "apologizes" saying he's sorry that EVERY ONE ELSE misunderstood the subtle nuances of his misogyny.

Have I got that right? I would say it's time that his sponsors and supporters pulled out. Make him realize that there ARE consequences for his actions.

Yup, that's pretty much what he said both times in a nutshell. You forgot the part where he comes off as superior but yeah.

Thank you, and yeah I didn't put that in because I don't think there really is any misunderstanding on that concept.

And as for the "purify by sunlight" I prefer nuke from orbit. No not literally (maybe), I mean every time he shows his face at an event to shun and disgrace him and his ilk. Stop endorsing and supporting them. Any time he shows up to play block him out. Make it difficult for him to compete again and realize that no, he doesn't speak for the community and no, the community should not allow this bullshit to continue. Don't hide it away, shove it out in the open and say "this is garbage and we don't want it here".

Fuckin' rock on Bob.

Zenron:
I've never understood why people think the right to free speech means they're allowed to be an arsehole to people without consequence.

It's the other way around. They want to be an arsehole first, so they then retroactively use "free speech" as a justification.

Finest episode of your show yet Bob. ^_^ Absolute finest.

Slycne:

I might even go a step further to postulate that the actually professionals are ok, but it's the people riding just below that edge that are the real problem.

There's definitely something to this thought, and it's not specific to gaming. There are "bad apples" in every walk of life, even professional pursuits; it's that by their very nature, professionals are more visible than the average person. And whenever a "professional" anything does something bad, there is a legion of apologists saying some variation of "it's just part of the game/business/scene/fnord". And then there's people like me, who respond with some variation of "But it's still wrong."

This was the excuse when Todd Bertuzzi tried to murder Steve Moore in the middle of a hockey game. It's the excuse when John Daly does something criminal, misogynistic, or both, again. It was the excuse when Latrell Sprewell choked his coach, and the NBA forced his team to reinstate him. It's the excuse now, as we discover just how many NFL teams paid bounties to their players for injuring opponents.

Of course you can say what you want, and the Constitution guarantees that it is legal to do so. It also guarantees the right of more open-minded people to criticise you, and ostracise you, and shout you down.

The fact that "it's the way it's always been" means nothing. For thousands of years human sacrifice existed in the Americas. (Yes, I know that it wasn't anywhere near as common or as widespread as was once thought. Just humour me a moment.) Yes, at the time it wasn't considered awful or horrific by the cultures that practiced it. Would we accept it now? Hells NO.

My wife plays more video games and is arguably even more of a "nerd" than I am. How many of this tool's defenders would have the courage to say this to her face? And then stand there and listen to her response? I thought not.

And one final note. This tool did not apologise. "I'm sorry if anyone was offended" is NOT. AN. APOLOGY. If YOU can't accept you did anything wrong, then stand by what you said. If you can't, then back the heck down and think about what you did.

This is how the culture changes.

Surprised there was no picture of Rush after this weeks events.

Scarim Coral:
Ok I must of been under some rock since I never heard of Aris constrosity let alone the whole Cross Assult show.
So against sexism is something you do know or is it next week is suppose to be stuff you are know alot of?

I also was not aware of this going on.
I support Free Speech, I do understand what the amendment entails, and I agree that spouting off ignorant statements has consequences that must and shall be paid.

It really is times like these where I'm most ashamed to be associated with gamer geeks.

I really do think the problem is that this Bakhtanians asshole isn't bright enough to see the problems with what he's said and done. He mentioned in an interview that in the good ol' days of arcades, the regulars were put off by newcomers who hadn't supposedly "earned" their right to be respected as they play. Right off the bat, he can fuck off with his exclusionary nostalgia trip. Because him and his friends were assholes to strangers in the 90s, this somehow gives him license to harass a girl while she attempts to play this game?

I have NOTHING against some casual smack talk. In the context of a game that is designed around competition, that sort of light joking fits in perfectly... But this "Get in the kitchen, you skirt... or else I'll have my way with you because I'm a man!" mentality needs to go. We're not in junior high anymore, you schlub. Girls aren't "icky" because they won't talk to you.

I watched about 13 minutes of the clip in question, where I genuinely had to pause the damned thing so that I could catch my breath... It was so over the top brain-dead and sexist, it felt like he was reading some unused dialog from Biff Tannen.

As part of the fighting game community I am disgusted and outraged from the incident from Assault Cross. Yes I do admit we have our share of weirdos and pervs, but Aris' actions really cross the lines (and reviles something about the ugly side of nerd sub-culture).

You know what Bob is right, this kind of behavior really need to be stopped.
I ask that people from all over to police their own fandoms and friends, to use positive peer pressure to keep your fellow gamers in line and letting them know this is not acceptable.

I already have a tremendous amount of respect for you Bob. But now...

+1 respect

has now been added to your running tally. Last count, 1,123 and climbing.

I'm sorry Bob, but no, you are wrong. Not about sexism being wrong of course, but that shrugging instances off as this one somehow is "a bad thing". 'Nerd culture' as you perceive it does not exist, gaming, the internet etc. is such a big part of normal life now, that it doesn't need defending from bad apples. At most you give some sort of weird justification for morons such as that guy to think that they are supported in these things.

This just doesn't work, in the same way that it doesn't work for Muslims to have to actively remove themselves from the crimes of other Muslims. It just implicates their religion and never actually solves a problem or hurts the offender.
In the same way a rallying cry to root out sexism in 'nerd culture', simply implies that this is an actual bigger problem of the culture somehow, while it is simply a problem of culture as a whole. Sexism exists everywhere, therefore also in games and gaming communities.

Focus on the offender. Him implicating his fellow gamers doesn't necessitate a response from them, on grounds that he is clearly a moron. A claim never justifies a response, we would be fighting windmills everywhere.

Finally, on the internet, bad behavior is enlarged. An unfortunate, but logical consequence of the anonymity involved. It is a bad place to base any view of a culture on, because the bad apples will be much more visible. Just like the other drivers on the road aren't responsible for drivers acting like an ass since they are in their safe enclosed anonymous environment (called a car :P), other gamers and internetters are not responsible for these freaks. These people are among us, but can not get away with it in real life. They will always be there...

Personally, as a member of the StarCraft community, I was quite happy when that bigoted manchild said that a community with less sexism would be StarCraft. It's always funny when intended insults are actually compliments.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 . . . 16 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here