The Big Picture: Not Okay

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illas:
snip

Rape is not intrinsically female victim issue, but it is (quite justifiably) a far more emotive issue for women. Because, to put it bluntly, women suffer it hugely more. Couple this with the fact that men generally display significantly lower fear of violence or physical attack (despite being overwhelmingly more likely to suffer it) and you are left with a predictable outcome. Although rape happens to men, men simply do not fear it. Men have no reason to believe it will happen to them, and normally they're right.

Put yourself in the shoes of a woman for a moment, someone who genuinely does fear rape. If you walk into an environment where guys casually use the word, are you going to spend your time trying to work out what they mean by that. No, you will get the fuck out. Why would you hang around people who treat your worst fear as a trivial thing?

We all say we want more women to play games, but I don't think we really want "women" to play games, we want gamer girls who will fit inoffensively into the preexisting culture and adopt our attitudes and who will never demand that we grow up or behave differently. That probably isn't going to happen. Women won't look at guys using the word "rape" and dismiss it as harmless fun, just like many gay people can't hear the word "fag" without feeling an emotional reaction. It's not about "manning up" or "getting offended over nothing", because this stuff isn't "nothing" to those people.

It will push them away, and it will ultimately lead to the gaming community continuing to be regarded as nothing more than a dumping ground for poorly socialized manchildren. That alone, I think, is reason to stop it.

Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).

One of the reasons I don't like online multiplayer games is the causal bigotry. It happens to often that a lot of people don't even react to it anymore.

While it deos feel so good to here someone FINALLY call those guys out on the casual mysognoy, homphobia, racism etc., I do think he is being just a little sensitive. These things do need to be phased out, but the majority of it isnt hateful, just tastless. Im not saying no harm done because that does act as a gateway to deliberate and intentional discrimination, but if I flagged every person that used a homophobic slur, thats about a third of the worldwide gamer population.

Two example from personal experience:
Getting called a fag as a general insult by a 7-year-old: Bad but harmless
One guy calling me a muslim because I blew myself up: That deserves punishment

Thanks for going beyond just the sexism issue and addressing the general dushbaggery that happens in online gaming. The worst thing about any multiplayer game right now is the players. Why should I have to be subjected to angry teenagers moaning and pissing? I hope game developers take notice of this and start to crack down on abusive players. Whats that you say? Just don't play multiplayer games then noob? Well if the market wasn't saturated with a ton a multiplayer games maybe I could. Big Multiplayer games are the way of the future as long as the internet is here. So guess I gotta hope for more Skyrims and Final Fantasy games that don't suck.

But you know I have as much right as the next person to jump into a big multiplayer match with my friends without being screamed at to uninstall my game(In a match of W.O.T. where I tracked and wrecked the other team with every artillery shot, but I didn't get any kills).

Yes using rape as a simile for beating another player is vulgar and only feeds the stereotype that all gamers are insecure jerks trying to draw attention away from the size of their own "Member".

Yeah I do get angry over stuff like this.

Why is hatespeach an important part of the fighting game culture?

Because they they don't like PC Games!

So does this mean I can't laugh at this anymore? Or does it pass under the "Politically incorrect but not being mean" clause?

Volf:

Punch You:

It isn't okay to enjoy your hobby while degrading women and making other members of your hobby look like dicks who you assume share your messed-up view of the world.

Why should people have to censor themselves when their playing things like Xbox live? Last I checked, you can mute people

The burden to change behavior should not fall on the innocents.

Plus, this isn't specific to online play. In tournaments and other gaming events people experience racism, sexism and harassment.

Very well, Bob. Let's talk about it. So, what exactly are we to talk about except "Sexism is bad, and the fact that some gamers feel entitled to being sexist as 'part of their identity' is ludicrous"? Seriously, what do you purpose we DO other than all nod and say "Yes, yes this is bad".
For if it is so, then I will reply "Why are we even talking about this?".

Yes, apologies and social ostracism were in order here, but it seems Bob is suggesting there should be legal ramifications for what he said. I'm not saying Bob openly said Bakhtanians should face government penalization for what he said, but suggesting it goes into dicey legal territory. I honestly don't want to see something like the UK's libel laws come here to the USA, where you can face fines and punishment from the state for what you say, because yeah, THAT'S CENSORSHIP.

He should be shunned by his peers and kicked off the show, but he shouldn't be fined or jailed. I know that's not what was said, but I find it important to make that distinction. But yeah, I agree with the fact that the gaming community's doing a shitty job of separating itself from idiots like this.

Sigh, Bob trumpeting the Political Correctness horn AGAIN, how predictable.

By this point we should all pretty much already know what he's going to say before he even says it. It would appear that he really does like to imagine himself as the Champion of Equality, no matter how hollow it truely is.

Volf:

Callate:

But where I get nervous is where Bob seems to be saying that there is no private place for attitudes or ideas that the general public finds offensive, only the public sphere where it comes right out of the gate to get immediately pelted with fruit for its intrinsic wrongness.

That idea disturbs me. I know we're increasingly living in a culture where privacy is a thing of the past. And certainly if you're doing something like a show or a podcast, you take the good of creating something for public consumption with the bad. Likewise, for example, if you're an employer, you better pay attention to laws about discrimination. The availability of fair workplaces where people don't feel threatened or harassed is an issue that effects us all, and I think as a society we're better for strong laws that protect us that way.

But I don't see the harm of Mac users quietly echoing to each other the superiority of users of their chosen platform, or "furries" sharing fantasies with one another, to give two examples (neither of which include me), despite the fact that expression of those ideas in the public sphere might get those who express them treated with derision and disgust.

Shorthand to be later misinterpreted: I see the problem with expressing a bad attitude in public as though the public should accept and mainstream that attitude. I'm concerned with that form of indignation, however righteous, being carried over into areas where people who may recognize their attitudes and ideas are "niche" want to share them with each other.

My thoughts exactly, a person should have the right to express unpopular opinions in a private setting.

True, and sponsors should have the right to tell them to go blow themselves when they broadcast that unpopular opinion on a national promotional stream.

Satosuke:
Yes, apologies and social ostracism were in order here, but it seems Bob is suggesting there should be legal ramifications for what he said. I'm not saying Bob openly said Bakhtanians should face government penalization for what he said, but suggesting it goes into dicey legal territory. I honestly don't want to see something like the UK's libel laws come here to the USA, where you can face fines and punishment from the state for what you say, because yeah, THAT'S CENSORSHIP.

He should be shunned by his peers and kicked off the show, but he shouldn't be fined or jailed. I know that's not what was said, but I find it important to make that distinction. But yeah, I agree with the fact that the gaming community's doing a shitty job of separating itself from idiots like this.

Government intervention? No.

Loss of sponsors? Yes.

The only sentence I didn't respond "DUH" to is the rape as synonym for defeat thing I don't use it but I had no problem with it until this wake up call, thank you. Also the nerd who gets bullied thing is old hat Bob seriously it is the only people who bullied me were obnoxious thirteen year old, obnoxious kids at my afterschool care who also played videogames and other nerds. Seriously that's it. In high school I had a lot of jock friends including chicks and they weren't bad to look at either. Maybe it's cause I live in SF but I don't these stereotypes about the midwest are true RIGHT? I never heard anything about nerds getting bullied besides the media, my dad who is over fifty, memesites and you. So it gets tiresome hearing you talk about it.

Father Time:
Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).

Nothing (and I repeat; NOTHING) cause harm "by necessity", even a gunshot-wound to the head can miraculously do more good than harm (in some convoluted way), but it is, as it is with everything else, the likelihood of something causing harm that we debate. And since racial slurs and bigoted speech are more likely than not in most occasions to cause harm, it is to be frowned (i.e faced with legal action) upon.

The guy has also never taken part in a Starcraft Game because maaaaan you will get the most interesting combination of gender-race-ethnic-religious slurs and insults used there. And that's from tyour own team and don't get me started on Dota aiyaa.

The truth is this sort of thing stems not just from gaming but from competition. Competition is a physical and a psychological warzone. The best way to hurt someones performance is to hurt them emotionally and sometimes that can be the best way to motivate someone as well. It tends to happen with gamers more because you're either anonymous over the 'net and thus safe from repercussion or... you're with close friends who know you and are likely to be cool with that (see like minded people). These two factors lead to the intensity being ramped up.

That said, guys like him are a comfort since I'm pretty certain his chances of getting intimate and thereby passing on those genes of his just took a serious nose dive. The gene pool as they say is self cleaning. Good show as always Bob. Seriously ladies, it's in your court.

I.. Well... I just..

THANK YOU!
(Goes down on knees and thanks all Gods/saints/religions for MovieBob, deep insight into a subject which is so important for my favorite medium is so often needed. If only more people could hear this and understand that most people is not like the vocal ones.)
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Sexism, homophobia, racial slurs etc is wrong, does not matter who utters them it's wrong. It's just one of the things that just shouldn't be accepted.
Now how do I shove this down into the morons throats...

Oh and Bob you know that you need thorns to see the beauty of the roses, although I still call this a "fun" episode anyhow.

Father Time:
Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).

You do realize the first amendment only applies to the government. If someone is fired for saying something racist, that has exactly zero to do with the first amendment.

Realitycrash:
Very well, Bob. Let's talk about it. So, what exactly are we to talk about except "Sexism is bad, and the fact that some gamers feel entitled to being sexist as 'part of their identity' is ludicrous"? Seriously, what do you purpose we DO other than all nod and say "Yes, yes this is bad".
For if it is so, then I will reply "Why are we even talking about this?".

I have an answer to this: since you agree with the points of the video, make sure you fight against slurs, harassment etc in the gaming community. Making sure to call out bad behavior and make it unacceptable in the community will bring positive changes.

yunabomb:

Realitycrash:
Very well, Bob. Let's talk about it. So, what exactly are we to talk about except "Sexism is bad, and the fact that some gamers feel entitled to being sexist as 'part of their identity' is ludicrous"? Seriously, what do you purpose we DO other than all nod and say "Yes, yes this is bad".
For if it is so, then I will reply "Why are we even talking about this?".

I have an answer to this: since you agree with the points of the video, make sure you fight against slurs, harassment etc in the gaming community. Making sure to call out bad behavior and make it unacceptable in the community will bring positive changes.

I'm sorry, but I thought everyone already did this? Kinda why I am always surprised when these topics come up.
Then again, I hardly play online anymore, mostly because I can't handle the slurs, etc. So I just don't interact with them.

*claps slowly and ethusiastically*

Well said bob. My friends and I discussed this just this Saturday.

I cannot believe that asshole said "Sexual harassment is part of the fighting game community". No. No it's not. Two of my best friends are fighting game NUTS, and they were disgusted that anyone could consider harassment a part of the community. Harassment has NOTHING to do with fighting games. They're about mastery, practice, showmanship and sportmanship (winning and losing gracefully, etc).

I'm glad Capcom themselves apologized for the incident, but they really should have gone farther, and BOOTED that guy out. I don't care how far into the tournament you are, find someone who isn't a total douche who pretty much destroyed any positive press that this show was getting you. Because of what that coach stirred up, when people think of cross assault, they won't think of that cool tournament used to advertise that fun looking game, they will think of "oh yeah, wasn't that the show with the sexist coach?".

All these years, I thought I liked Starcraft because it was the best RTS video game ever conceived. Turns out it was just because I was socially responsible, or something.

So Bob, you know that part in The Shawshank Redemption where Andy Dufresne writes letters to the state legislature every week requesting new books for the prison library, and they give him a few to shut him up, and he just starts writing two letters a week?

You may think you've assuaged the constant cry for a Samurai Pizza Cats episode, but in fact you've only emboldened us. We WILL have satisfaction. :)

Thanks a lot, great video. I saw a similar article just yesterday so I'll link it here for people who are interested in more strong views on the subject

yunabomb:

Volf:

Punch You:

It isn't okay to enjoy your hobby while degrading women and making other members of your hobby look like dicks who you assume share your messed-up view of the world.

Why should people have to censor themselves when their playing things like Xbox live? Last I checked, you can mute people

The burden to change behavior should not fall on the innocents.

Plus, this isn't specific to online play. In tournaments and other gaming events people experience racism, sexism and harassment.

well if your play Call of Duty Multiplayer and my saying something offensive gets you thinking about what is being said and not on the game, which in turn gives me a window of time to catch you off guard, why shouldn't I use that technique?

From the way you are all acting I expected the video to be of a girl crying in a corner while this creepy old man rubbed her thigh, instead I see her laughing like a school girl through most of it. She should have really been a bit more forward with her discomfort, because laughter is just encouragement for socially awkward guys who don't realize they've overstepped the line. You'd think people would learn this in high school. But I don't dismiss what the guy did either, obviously. Everything everyone said about him is justified.

I also disagree with bob about the fact that some things are never ok to say. When friend's are BSing with one another they can say whatever they damn well please, as long as they are both ok with it.

NameIsRobertPaulson:

Volf:

Callate:

But where I get nervous is where Bob seems to be saying that there is no private place for attitudes or ideas that the general public finds offensive, only the public sphere where it comes right out of the gate to get immediately pelted with fruit for its intrinsic wrongness.

That idea disturbs me. I know we're increasingly living in a culture where privacy is a thing of the past. And certainly if you're doing something like a show or a podcast, you take the good of creating something for public consumption with the bad. Likewise, for example, if you're an employer, you better pay attention to laws about discrimination. The availability of fair workplaces where people don't feel threatened or harassed is an issue that effects us all, and I think as a society we're better for strong laws that protect us that way.

But I don't see the harm of Mac users quietly echoing to each other the superiority of users of their chosen platform, or "furries" sharing fantasies with one another, to give two examples (neither of which include me), despite the fact that expression of those ideas in the public sphere might get those who express them treated with derision and disgust.

Shorthand to be later misinterpreted: I see the problem with expressing a bad attitude in public as though the public should accept and mainstream that attitude. I'm concerned with that form of indignation, however righteous, being carried over into areas where people who may recognize their attitudes and ideas are "niche" want to share them with each other.

My thoughts exactly, a person should have the right to express unpopular opinions in a private setting.

True, and sponsors should have the right to tell them to go blow themselves when they broadcast that unpopular opinion on a national promotional stream.

Nobody was saying that sponsors shouldn't have those rights. All that was being said was that this isn't 1984, so people should have a right to express themselves freely in a private environment.

Realitycrash:

Father Time:
Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).

Nothing (and I repeat; NOTHING) cause harm "by necessity", even a gunshot-wound to the head can miraculously do more good than harm (in some convoluted way), but it is, as it is with everything else, the likelihood of something causing harm that we debate. And since racial slurs and bigoted speech are more likely than not in most occasions to cause harm, it is to be frowned (i.e faced with legal action) upon.

How do racial slurs cause harm? And being offended does not count.

Say what you will about Bob, but when it comes down to the controversial topics he has a habit of saying what needs to be said. Couldn't agree more with this video.

evilthecat:

illas:
snip

Rape is not intrinsically female victim issue, but it is (quite justifiably) a far more emotive issue for women. Because, to put it bluntly, women suffer it hugely more. Couple this with the fact that men generally display significantly lower fear of violence or physical attack (despite being overwhelmingly more likely to suffer it) and you are left with a predictable outcome. Although rape happens to men, men simply do not fear it. Men have no reason to believe it will happen to them, and normally they're right.

Put yourself in the shoes of a woman for a moment, someone who genuinely does fear rape. If you walk into an environment where guys casually use the word, are you going to spend your time trying to work out what they mean by that. No, you will get the fuck out. Why would you hang around people who treat your worst fear as a trivial thing?

We all say we want more women to play games, but I don't think we really want "women" to play games, we want gamer girls who will fit inoffensively into the preexisting culture and adopt our attitudes and who will never demand that we grow up or behave differently. That probably isn't going to happen. Women won't look at guys using the word "rape" and dismiss it as harmless fun, just like many gay people can't hear the word "fag" without feeling an emotional reaction. It's not about "manning up" or "getting offended over nothing", because this stuff isn't "nothing" to those people.

It will push them away, and it will ultimately lead to the gaming community continuing to be regarded as nothing more than a dumping ground for poorly socialized manchildren. That alone, I think, is reason to stop it.

Please don't misunderstand me, I agree with you.

As I initially suggested, vocabulary like "kill" and "destroy" are just as intimidating and unpleasant as "rape" and we either need to work to remove them from our communities' collective vernacular in order to make us more approachable, or wait until they are assimilated into common vocabulary and so loose their unnecessarily aggressive tone.

At the risk of being pessimistic, I think the latter is more likely.

flying_whimsy:
This is probably the most pissed off I've ever heard movie bob sound; I don't blame him, either, as I've said the exact same thing on more than one occasion over the last few years. I remember calling some friends out on throwing the word rape around more casually than I was comfortable with and they looked at me like I grew a second head.

Seriously, nerd culture based sexism is something I would seriously like to see go away. Forever.

Had the same thing happen to me as well. Anyone else out there listening? Is this scenario as common as I think it is?

Man, I came to this thread for some delicious rage, but everyone here's so tolerant! ...

Guess I'll have to go get my entertainment elsewhere today

You misrepresented the source. He referenced Starcraft because the guy he was talking to was comparing the two communities and was noting that the Starcraft community had none of the harassment. I was initially very hard on Bakhtanians, but I've cooled off on him. What he said still stands as monumentally stupid, but I don't think that there was malicious intent behind it. I think it was a guy who dug himself into a hole and didn't know when to stop talking.

Ok, first of all I laugh at sexist, racist or any sort of joke along those lines. Why? Because I find them so ridiculous that they're funny. But when given serious situations, I decide on someone no matter their race or sex. I don't even take in consideration "Would I look sexist or racist doing this?" If I do, and I'm accused of it, I just give my reasons and leave it at that. Hell, in my "debate" class we have men vs women so many times, and I'm always the neutral stand.

As for something to show how immature I am at times, I just noticed that the bridge of Bob's happy face looks like a penis.

Father Time:

Realitycrash:

Father Time:
Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).

Nothing (and I repeat; NOTHING) cause harm "by necessity", even a gunshot-wound to the head can miraculously do more good than harm (in some convoluted way), but it is, as it is with everything else, the likelihood of something causing harm that we debate. And since racial slurs and bigoted speech are more likely than not in most occasions to cause harm, it is to be frowned (i.e faced with legal action) upon.

How do racial slurs cause harm? And being offended does not count.

Lol?
Being offended DOES count. It causes harm in the same way that a sexist comment at the workplace causes harm, or that bullying causes harm in schools. Do I really need to explain why using racial slurs is bad?

Two quick things, mostly because I think I'll get ragged on for these views:

I don't feel bad at all the that the female gamer who was targeted with the harrassing words CHOSE to forfeit and quit. That was completely her decision. Should the administrators have done something to insulate her from further comments, like keep that Aris guy away from her, or even disqualify him? Yes, probably. But in the end, he was not forcing shame or pain on her in any way. All we humans can give to each other (aside from physical actions, like a punch) is information. What the other person does to that is their own business. We all have people in our lives that would break our hearts by saying they hated us. We all also have people that could say that and not get any reaction at all from us. That shows that we are the final arbiters of what happens when he hear things we do not like. I got this view from the excellent book Choice Theory by psychologist William Glasser, and I recommend it to everyone. Your happiness is completely under your control.

Secondly, a big "no" to your assertion that a word like "rape" should never be used in certain contexts. If you want that, then I suggest we do the same to the word "kill." That means you've got to find another word or group of words to convey 75% or so of the main objectives of all video games. No one has the right to determine the scope of definitions of the words I use. Telling me to only use a word in certain contexts is a step towards absolute censorship. Besides, like I mentioned before, you have complete control over how you interpret and react to any words you hear.

I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.

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