Jimquisition: Lazy, Boring, Ordinary, Art Games

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i tried them once... alice game..... dont try them again. they jut seem so pointless to me. then again there are people that enjoy chicle romantic comedies, so i guess you need something for everyone.

I bought 'The Path' a couple years ago after one of the Escapist staff had it on their top 5 games of the year list. I don't begrudge the purchase, but it's not a game I've got saved on my hard drive. Now I get the neat concise little package that art games seem to be, and I can move on to other [more interesting] titles.

I saw Dear Esther and thought: "Hey, someone's trying to capitalize on Skyrim's popularity". Which maybe they are. From all the trailers it looks like an island that might as well be off the shore of Solitude with no enemies or treasure. It looks great, but that nagging feeling that it might be like Myst prevailed and I didn't get it. I never 'got' Myst. As Jim mentioned, Silent Hill is like Myst but with action. So why get the Lite version, just go for the whole shebang.

RobfromtheGulag:
I bought 'The Path' a couple years ago after one of the Escapist staff had it on their top 5 games of the year list. I don't begrudge the purchase, but it's not a game I've got saved on my hard drive. Now I get the neat concise little package that art games seem to be, and I can move on to other [more interesting] titles.

I saw Dear Esther and thought: "Hey, someone's trying to capitalize on Skyrim's popularity". Which maybe they are. From all the trailers it looks like an island that might as well be off the shore of Solitude with no enemies or treasure. It looks great, but that nagging feeling that it might be like Myst prevailed and I didn't get it. I never 'got' Myst. As Jim mentioned, Silent Hill is like Myst but with action. So why get the Lite version, just go for the whole shebang.

Silent Hill wishes it was as good as Myst.

my roomate's aunt makes $83/hr on the laptop. She has been without work for 8 months but last month her pay was $8682 just working on the laptop for a few hours. Read more on this site...Nuttyrich . com

Interesting if I said FUCK OFF CUNT to anyone on the Escapist I'd get suspended.

How can I avoid it? Saying it ironically? Writing an essay of 500 word before saying it?

http://www.freewebarcade.com/game/the-company-of-myself/

Try this game, The Company of Myself. It's good gameplay and it really messes with the narrative, I highly recommend it.

Moeez:

The Cheshire:

Moeez:
I agree with his argument on certain art games lacking much interaction, but not all.

Thanks for those games, I enjoyed them a lot.

Oh thanks, glad you did! I keep on promoting those games a lot of times in such art games threads.

Good. Talking about free games, I highly recommend Cart Life, it is a free game and it is so absolutely awesome and complex I couldn't even start to talk about it. Try it out, it's worth it. Most art games have really simple gameplay, Cart Life is quite complex in comparison, but it's very very much an art game.

Dead_Lee:
http://www.freewebarcade.com/game/the-company-of-myself/

Try this game, The Company of Myself. It's good gameplay and it really messes with the narrative, I highly recommend it.

Normally I hate Arty games, But "Company of Myself" is really good though.

The Cheshire:

Moeez:

The Cheshire:

Thanks for those games, I enjoyed them a lot.

Oh thanks, glad you did! I keep on promoting those games a lot of times in such art games threads.

Good. Talking about free games, I highly recommend Cart Life, it is a free game and it is so absolutely awesome and complex I couldn't even start to talk about it. Try it out, it's worth it. Most art games have really simple gameplay, Cart Life is quite complex in comparison, but it's very very much an art game.

You weren't kidding about it being a complex game, could spend hours on it! Also, am I the only one noticing a "The Passage" reference on the pictures of your house wall?

image

LOl I get a warning for a more eloquent insult than Jim could fathom. Get a job mods.

Blood Brain Barrier:

RobfromtheGulag:
I bought 'The Path' a couple years ago after one of the Escapist staff had it on their top 5 games of the year list. I don't begrudge the purchase, but it's not a game I've got saved on my hard drive. Now I get the neat concise little package that art games seem to be, and I can move on to other [more interesting] titles.

I saw Dear Esther and thought: "Hey, someone's trying to capitalize on Skyrim's popularity". Which maybe they are. From all the trailers it looks like an island that might as well be off the shore of Solitude with no enemies or treasure. It looks great, but that nagging feeling that it might be like Myst prevailed and I didn't get it. I never 'got' Myst. As Jim mentioned, Silent Hill is like Myst but with action. So why get the Lite version, just go for the whole shebang.

Silent Hill wishes it was as good as Myst.

UUHUUH GURL

We draw pistols at dawn!!!

Actually the only ones I'd defend against that are SH2&3 the rest you can have.

maninahat:

piscian:

maninahat:
snip

My only comment would be, if they are so innovative and original then why are they using the same title over and over?

They're sequels within the same franchise, hence why they share the same title (with a number at the end). You don't need me to explain what a sequel is.

Every reviewer EVERY REVIEWER starts off with "Well its the same old CoD BUT NEW MAPS!"
I'm not exaggerating

No they don't, and yes you are.

for every new interesting anime that comes out(once every 5 years) there's 600 of the same old repetitive shit. Good analogy.

You know how you were complaining about the way Jim was acting? You're acting quite a lot like that right now.

No there's far less spittle and twinkie bits flying when I say it.

Just found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE9IbKhQ3aw

It's a Dear Esther speedrun. Oh yes. Where's your messiah now?

"Go back to Call of Duty, that's what all the stupid people play!"

Well said, but I'd rather be stupid and having fun than bored out of my huge genius mind.

I... disagree. I think we need games like Dear Esther both because diversity is good and to have a precedent of inspiration when considering how to design our games.

I like books, reading and atmosphere. I also like videogames, and videogames that have those things. I'm not so attached to gameplay that I'd ignore the game's worth if it didn't have it. I "play" visual novels after all, and they're not too different from this. In the end, it's about the experience, not the mental stimulation associated with thrills and gratification.

So maybe you need to open your mind a bit, Jim. There's a place for these types of games.

Good points well made, Next year I get a chance to meet the guy who made Dear Esther, so perhaps I can ask him what his ideas for the game were.

Though if I remember correctly Dear Esther is pretty old and has just recently been remade, from mod to full-game.

Homefront would be better if they didn't wuss out and made China the enemy.

Also Jim nailed it again. Think of gameplay and artistic value as sliders rather than on off switches.

A game needs a certain level of gameplay first because it is a damn game. Then it can crank up the art around its mechanics.

Braid, World of Goo, Bastion, Limbo, and I would include Out of this World are all examples "art" games that still have sustaining gameplay mechanics.

I think the best analogy of art games would be comic books. With both types of media the creators have a story to tell. Comic books tell the story with visually compelling pages with snapshots and some mostly expository dialog. Art games tell the story with game levels which are snapshots like comic pages. The games have the hook that the player is in control of the protagonist increasing immersion.

But what Mr Sterling has failed to see and even point out is that art is a cyclical thing like fashion. If it wasn't, we'd all still be painting Renaissance artworks. (Though given the quality of today's modern art, this may be something of an improvement - but this is moot.)

But art, like fashion goes through the motions like anything else until it's buyers or connoisseurs get sick of it and then the art changes to reflect the tastes of the future.

Even renaissance art such as the Sistine Chapel were done on a commissionary basis. Not because it was art for it's own sake - but because the church paid Michaelangelo to do it.

Art for it's own sake is a rare beast, the rest of it is art for money's sake.

I can understand why Mr Sterling fears stagnation in art but it doesn't give him the right to act immaturely toward those who disagree with his own artistic opinions.

If someone considers a can of soup, Victoria Frances pictures, abject sculptures covered in verdigree to be art, it's art - albeit to them. Acting like a petulant child will do nothing to change this.

This raises the following question: Why does Mr Sterling not respect other people's right to buy something they deem to be art? Especially when it doesn't harm or otherwise affect him.

The Cheshire:
I am pretty sure he wasn't refering to my sort of argumentation. At least I believe I make better points than "go play your fps lol".

I said that because in the past Jim received a lot of "you are not playing it right"/"you don't have an open mind" comments. Effectively, it is the game's fault if you don't "get it"/"play it right", not the players'.

Dear Esther...with zombies. Yes, that's top of my intelectual potential. :D

ElPatron:

The Cheshire:
I am pretty sure he wasn't refering to my sort of argumentation. At least I believe I make better points than "go play your fps lol".

I said that because in the past Jim received a lot of "you are not playing it right"/"you don't have an open mind" comments. Effectively, it is the game's fault if you don't "get it"/"play it right", not the players'.

Well, not really, I don't enjoy Starcraft 2 at all and it's not Blizzard's fault, I just don't happen to enjoy strategy games. Dear Esther is very enjoyable, just not as a game, but as an aesthetic experience. If you want a game, you won't like it.

I get Jim's point, but does he have to reiterate the same points a minimum of 3 times along the course of the film? If he'd made his point and moved on, this video would've been only been 2-3 minutes.

The Cheshire:
Well, not really, I don't enjoy Starcraft 2 at all and it's not Blizzard's fault, I just don't happen to enjoy strategy games.

That's not a good analogy at all.

I recommend backtracking on Jim's coverage on "art games". He wasn't "playing it right" because the game never instructed him how to "play it right". Therefore it's not his fault.

The Cheshire:
If you want a game, you won't like it.

Then it could be argued it's not a game and we are back at square one.

If someone reviews a game, then if it's not a game it deserves a bad score. You can't argue that the reviewer was not "playing it right".

An "artsy" game should be like The Stanley Parable. A fantastic mod for Half-Life 2 (Any source game, really. Even the Free-to-play TF2)

I'm not going to reveal too many things about the game, but I will say that there are many, many endings and the narrative voice is awesome.

I agree very much with you Jim. I love 'arty' games, I'm glad they exist - but they are just as capable of being boring and generic (rightly said, like a CoD clone). I played Dear Esther....actually that's incorrect, I WATCHED Dear Esther and felt hollow and uninspired by the whole thing. But, I recently played Limbo too, and I loved it purely because I felt a part of the experience and actually felt something for the main character. I try to keep in the know with 'arty' games because there are some genuinely brilliant ones out there (downloading Journey as I type) and I don't want to miss out. But I'm under no illusion that 'arty' = good or even unique.

Luckily, games like Dear Esther are few and far between so it's not much of an issue, and like you said Journey is pushing the concept of an 'art' game in the right direction. I'm sure there are many who enjoy watching games like Dear Esther, but I read a lot of books and watch a lot of films, and when I play video games I expect interactivity.

I liked Dear Esther, though I do feel I would've lost interest if it had gone for any longer than just under an hour. Someone should make a chart of Complexity of game mechanics vs. Expected playthough longevity. Portal went for 3 hours with just walking, jumping, carrying boxes and shooting portals. Skyrim/Fallout 3 go for 100 hours+ with a massive amount of stuff to do, and there's a heap of games in the middle. Anyway, back to Dear Esther. I thought the environments were very well designed and the soundtrack was engaging (but I guess art games don't get points for that anymore), and the story was, umm, compelling but not properly concluded (the ending just raises more questions than it answers, like with Braid (the text-box epilogue I mean, not the gameplay part of the ending)). I definitely don't feel begrudged by the game, but it's not in my top 10. It caught my attention for the hour I spent playing through it, but seriously, what was up with the end cutscene?

Kojiro ftt:
What is this game "Dee Arresta"? I've never heard of it.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not... but I was wondering that too when I was listening to (not watching) the video.

...then I realized he's not saying Dee Arresta (or as I thought, Diaresta)... it's Dear Esther - the HL2 mod which is now it's own game, apparently.

trollpwner:
Ironically, this is fully applicable to his beloved CoD series.

Finally, someone who understands my problem with CoD.

It's just badly paced (a lot of it felt like auto-attack without the convience of auto), seems to think "foreshadowing" means "show the player character pointing a gun at JFK (in the third level, U.S.D.D.)", and just isn't that good.

MW2 was bad but in a somewhat amusing, still entertaining way, BLOps was just bad, and from what I've seen of MW3, it hasn't gotten better.

To those who defend "Dear Ester" on the grounds that its not really a game.. IF IT WALKS LIKE A DUCK AND QUACKS LIKE A DUCK, TAKES INPUT LIKE A DUCK, NEEDS TO BE INSTALLED LIKE A DUCK, AND HAD TO BE CODED/SCRIPTED LIKE A DUCK, CHANCES ARE, ITS A DUCK.

Though I am curious as to why Jim thought Everyday the Same Dream was bad? I mean, the game put you on a guided tour, but the objective of it was to break the 'routine' of this guided tour, by talking to hobos and petting cows. Or maybe I have a hard time imagining that game as a short cartoon, as the interactivity, as lacking as it was, played to the narrative the mechanics of the game were trying to tell.

Course, One Chance possibly the best "art game" I've ever played.

Simonoly:
I agree very much with you Jim. I love 'arty' games, I'm glad they exist - but they are just as capable of being boring and generic (rightly said, like a CoD clone). I played Dear Esther....actually that's incorrect, I WATCHED Dear Esther and felt hollow and uninspired by the whole thing. But, I recently played Limbo too, and I loved it purely because I felt a part of the experience and actually felt something for the main character. I try to keep in the know with 'arty' games because there are some genuinely brilliant ones out there (downloading Journey as I type) and I don't want to miss out. But I'm under no illusion that 'arty' = good or even unique.

Luckily, games like Dear Esther are few and far between so it's not much of an issue, and like you said Journey is pushing the concept of an 'art' game in the right direction. I'm sure there are many who enjoy watching games like Dear Esther, but I read a lot of books and watch a lot of films, and when I play video games I expect interactivity.

You can't criticize Dear Esther and then say you WATCHED it. It's meant to be an interactive experience - of course you're not going to get the full effect by watching someone else play it. That's like viewing a few of your friend's vacation snaps and saying you don't like the place they went to.

ElPatron:

The Cheshire:
Well, not really, I don't enjoy Starcraft 2 at all and it's not Blizzard's fault, I just don't happen to enjoy strategy games.

That's not a good analogy at all.

I recommend backtracking on Jim's coverage on "art games". He wasn't "playing it right" because the game never instructed him how to "play it right". Therefore it's not his fault.

The Cheshire:
If you want a game, you won't like it.

Then it could be argued it's not a game and we are back at square one.

If someone reviews a game, then if it's not a game it deserves a bad score. You can't argue that the reviewer was not "playing it right".

The game never instructed how to play it right because it's not a game, and thus, it is not supposed to have any way of playing it right. No one is reviewing a game when reviewing Dear Esther, which is closer to contemporary art than it is to videogaming, even if superficially it may not look like it. A game implies challenges and obstacles, Dear Esther has none, so yeah, my point is: it's not a game. It's more like an art piece that uses game technology. Can't see nothing wrong with that.

So what is the most important aspect of a game?, art game, casual game, whatever...

Is it visuals over gameplay?
gameplay over story?
story over visuals?

Or like a lot of people, all of the above. I don't like the influence these meme games have on the industry, before long we'll all be little girls wandering around on our own - going oooh, look at the pretty rock textures, and forgetting about shooting stuff or doing stuff or anything that the designer didn't already script for us to do.

I said it some time ago, but indi games and commercial games need to stay separate. It's as simple as that - leave indi developers alone to make games like Amnesia, Minecraft, and Dear Esther. There is a market and a demand for games like Dear Esther, but it's a niche - people aren't looking for games that play like Esther, they want interesting experiences - whether that's exploring a glorious cave, or shouting at dragons, or flying a jet in a FPS.

Not all games are art, for that to be true, all art would have to be art, and all art certainly shouldn't be considered art. Lets not throw around terms that just don't fit - videogames are not art - just like walking through the fricken woods is not art. Videogames are a simulation of an experience, they don't represent real life, although some do a good job of mimicking real life, or presenting a believable metaphor for it. It's only because Esther is a new experience (ish) that it might conjure some reaction, some emotion - before long these games will be just like any other dull videogame.

Yeah, that game that was first released four years ago is soooo old and out of date, guys.

If I wanted a world to explore in my own way, learning the story for myself, I'd read a book like Twilight. I am totally immersed in the environment when reading Twilight and touching myself during the romance parts.

Blood Brain Barrier:

Simonoly:
I agree very much with you Jim. I love 'arty' games, I'm glad they exist - but they are just as capable of being boring and generic (rightly said, like a CoD clone). I played Dear Esther....actually that's incorrect, I WATCHED Dear Esther and felt hollow and uninspired by the whole thing. But, I recently played Limbo too, and I loved it purely because I felt a part of the experience and actually felt something for the main character. I try to keep in the know with 'arty' games because there are some genuinely brilliant ones out there (downloading Journey as I type) and I don't want to miss out. But I'm under no illusion that 'arty' = good or even unique.

Luckily, games like Dear Esther are few and far between so it's not much of an issue, and like you said Journey is pushing the concept of an 'art' game in the right direction. I'm sure there are many who enjoy watching games like Dear Esther, but I read a lot of books and watch a lot of films, and when I play video games I expect interactivity.

You can't criticize Dear Esther and then say you WATCHED it. It's meant to be an interactive experience - of course you're not going to get the full effect by watching someone else play it. That's like viewing a few of your friend's vacation snaps and saying you don't like the place they went to.

I was being sarcastic.

The Cheshire:
The game never instructed how to play it right because it's not a game, and thus, it is not supposed to have any way of playing it right. No one is reviewing a game when reviewing Dear Esther, which is closer to contemporary art than it is to videogaming, even if superficially it may not look like it. A game implies challenges and obstacles, Dear Esther has none, so yeah, my point is: it's not a game. It's more like an art piece that uses game technology. Can't see nothing wrong with that.

That's why I suggested you backtracking on Jim's videos.

He got flak for his reviews of other "artsy" games, not Dear Esther. Of course, a lot of people said "you're not playing it right"/"wrong mindset"/"you just don't get it".

Therefore he said the "fuck you" before people could comment his video.

Also, those games he reviewed had to be analyzed "as is", and they were pretty shitty no matter what gaming hipsters might have claimed.

I disagree with the people who say that these art games shouldn't be considered games. Including the very creators of The Path, who also publically stated that their work s not really a game, more of an "interactive painting" (in the sense that it is more interactive than other paintings).

I use the same argument myself regarding Visual Novels, when people argue that not having enough interactivity is somehow their "fault", I'm all like "It's a separate medium on it's own, where this much interactivity is the norm".

But the difference is, that at least Visual Novels can be really defined narrowly as a medium, because they have a single very specific mechanical frame, and literally only the text and the pictures are changing between different games. They happen to be run on computers, but that's the only thing they share with games.

These "art games" on the other hand, are a vague category. Where does an "interactive painting" or a "software entertainment experience" end, and a "game" start? They all have different gameplay, with a bit more, or a bit less interactivity. Where would you draw the line between a game that is obliged to be interactive, and art software that is allowed to be more passive?

And what would be the point? Just to stop gaming sites from talking about them?

T3hSource:
Thank you for pointing out why I avoid these kinds of games in general,but I guess one time I have to give one of those "pretentious arty" games a chance.Until then I'll call Serous Sam genocide a work of art.

Some of them are actually good.
But yes, most of them are pretentious crap.

Many people said I just didn't get No More Heroes. Yes, I don't get shallow gameplay and minigames based on jobs we give to unskilled immigrants.

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