The Big Picture: Relics

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Is there any evidence in the comics that Batman and Robin had a homosexual relationship?
I mean aside from the chuckling-inspiring scenes of them having a Spa together. Or is that just one of these fun pop culture things, like saying that Bert and Ernie were Lovers?

(I don't want to bash homosexual people, mind you, I am just curious if there is actual evidence)

The "Lost City" theme doesn't just refer to the continent of Africa though. Almost every place in planet earth has some kind of ancient ruin. You know because people have been living all over the planet for the last 20,000 years. And in Africa since the dawn of the species (Amy dates 3 million if I'm not mistaken). I totally buy that colonists were racist monsters, but I'm not sure I buy that those same adventures in racism bleeds into our own modern perspective of exploring lost civilizations. I think of a bunch of nerds carefully digging up a temple in a Central American jungle for months, then making a boring show for the discovery channel (pre motocycle fishing wtf madness discovery). With all sorts of ridiculous speculative fiction about what went on their.

That was cool.

Ok question time.
Now that BioWare are done with Shepherd's story and are on their way to finishing up Dragon Age, what do you think they will try next?

I kind of hope they try a RPG world that has magic (and I mean magic magic), but is placed in a future world. Not as far in the future as Mass effect maybe, but at least far enough that they have electricity and indoor plumbing.

Do you think they will be trying anything like that? Have you (or anyone else really) heard of a game like that?

Thanks for the brain food Bob!

scdallav:

beniki:
Huh. That's kind of interesting.

But wait... presumably they had guides and such that they could ask. Someone must have known the history of the cities, even if there was only oral stories.

Well... actually, I guess that's what the books were loosely based off, and then imaginations back home ran wild.

Here's a question for you though:

What are the other non-Tolkein fantasy ancestors?

Just wondering what there was before pointy ears and short bastards.

Same deal with the Mound builder cultures of the mid-west. Cultures and languages drift, populations migrate, civilizations collapse, etc. It's not like anyone in Britain has an oral tradition of the building of stonehenge, and for that matter for most if not all of the dark ages Europeans were unable to duplicate the construction methods and accomplishments of the Romans, though at least in that case they knew who built them.

There were though, weren't there? Folk lore about druid circles and fairy folk?

Not certain if that's true, but if it is the case, then maybe those stories about lost civilisations in Africa aren't actually the product of racism, but merely using local folk lore... which would be an interesting book to write for someone of an explorer mind set.

Not that I'm denying that there may be racist origins, but like Bob says, we should approach this with intellectual honesty. Does anyone know any African folk lore about ancient civilisations?

Deathlyphil:
Non-Marvel, non-DC, possibly even non-Superhero comics please!

Antarctic Press has a lot of those
http://www.antarctic-press.com/

go, be free :D

OT:

did not know that about that trope, but its about as surprising as the sun coming up

Kitsuna10060:

Deathlyphil:
Non-Marvel, non-DC, possibly even non-Superhero comics please!

Antarctic Press has a lot of those
http://www.antarctic-press.com/

go, be free :D

OT:

did not know that about that trope, but its about as surprising as the sun coming up

Thanks for the link. Not quite what I was meaning, but thanks anyway. My point is that MovieBob only ever talks about Marvel and DC. It's like none of the other exist (Except when they are getting consumed by Marvel/DC).

Good Episode.

My only issue is with your statement about racism being an integral part of human history since the beginning. That's not really true since to be a racist, a person needs to feel as if they belong to a larger race of people than just their surrounding environment. The ancient Greeks weren't racist because they did not see themselves belonging to a superior race. An Athenian would see himself superior to his fellow Greeks and Greeks superior to Persians, Romans,or any other Mediterranean race. The concept of belonging to member of a "race" didn't come along much later until the Enlightenment when the scope of the world view had broadened.

Other than that, very good episode. It's interesting to think that the concept of "the lost city" being based on the skepticism of explorers who found it more believable to attribute buildings to a undiscovered people than the inhabitants.

As a history buff you didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know, but you did it in an interesting way so that's OK.

With the whole "digital retail" idea gathering steam(heh)do you think we'll see a return to built-in modems like with the dreamcast?

(and because I am nothing if not a pedant: the idea of being racially tolerant isn't really new, there have been plenty of multi-racial empires and civilizations etc in the past, what is new is the idea of being racially tolerant being the norm in post-industrial western society.)

I've never gotten the impression of Africa from most "lost city" stories. Almost always it seems to be South America and then it is pretty clear that it is the Mayans or Aztec, and we know they built them. The Spaniards just wiped them out. The other influence I see in the lost city trope is the Beng Mealea Temple. This second seems to be the source of more mystery than the South American ones. We know a lot of South America and why their cities are empty now (because they all got killed by the Spanish) what happened to Beng Mealea Temple is a lot more interesting of a topic.

The same does sort of stand for places like the Great Zimbabwe. It raises the question why are these people living in huts made from mud and sticks when they are living next to a bloody castle? It makes you ask if your ancestors built that huge place then why the hell are you living in mud huts now? Thus the conclusion that some "lost" civilization built it.

Its like the dark ages in Europe. If an outsider, like from China, saw the wooden shacks and huts of the people then these huge amazing ruins like Rome or Athens. They'd have to question what happened. Of course the answer would be from the barbarians that the sort invaded destroyed and killed the Romans without asking them how to make all that fancy stuff. A minor oversight yes.

What makes the Africa situation possibly racist is if you default to the belief that the former in habitants were obviously Caucasian. The former occupants were most likely Negroid, but the question still remains of what happened to them.

That's why I like science fiction. Because when they fnd lost cities, they ARE on the moon.

Also, I like how you dealt with racism in this episode. The fact that it is so pervasive in our culture, and in the culture of the entire world as well, makes it a lot easier to understtand, and deal with. Only when we are forced to come to terms with our own racism can we effectively eliminate the damaging forms of racism in the world.

Fawxy:
QUESTION: What's your opinion on the next generation of game consoles and where it will/might take the game industry? Failing that, where do you see consoles in the future i.e. 10-15 years from now?

I think this video will pretty much sum up Bob's feelings on the future of the gaming industry:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/2911-PC-Gaming-Is-Dead-Long-Live-PC-Gaming

The Lost City? If most of Africans, at that time of colonialism lived in huts and where considered savage by our more civilised living - would you agree that seeing destroyed towns built of stone may seem unconnected from the races that lived there? Taking the evidence at face value.

Whats the point in have a lost city that was built 10 years ago, takes the whole excitement out of its discovery wouldn't it? Also its just a generic thing, nothing to do with race at all. I hate it when race is brought into everything even its unconnected.

Question: Will you ever do any more American Bob on youtube or the escapist?
I hope you will

Why is it when you're a kid you think your skin color is "peach" I thought that for so many years until someone finally said our (our being white people) skin is white.

@bobtail: he has done, there's been two new videos out since new year

Two things... Amm... Movie Bob?

1. I actually don't associate Lost City with Africa... More with South America... And I do know those cites were build by native people who lost their knowledge over time. Or were wiped out by more aggressive neighbours (or conquistadors...)
2. Isn't a bit racist (ok not racist... Equivalent of racism for nation - it's not nationalism either...) to use British as stereotype of stupid blind colonist? There were more countries sticking their noses to Africa than GB. It's like using Russians for baddies in almost every modern war game... Even upth years after end of cold war... (Vanquish... I'm looking at you)
And... No I'm not from GB nor Russia. I'm from Poland.

beniki:

scdallav:

beniki:
Huh. That's kind of interesting.

Snip

Snip

There were though, weren't there? Folk lore about druid circles and fairy folk?

Not certain if that's true, but if it is the case, then maybe those stories about lost civilisations in Africa aren't actually the product of racism, but merely using local folk lore... which would be an interesting book to write for someone of an explorer mind set.

Not that I'm denying that there may be racist origins, but like Bob says, we should approach this with intellectual honesty. Does anyone know any African folk lore about ancient civilisations?

The Romans killed the druids, and outlawed the native Britons' religion iirc.

Anansi is/was the African (at least in Ghana) spider god of mischief. Read Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman, it's fiction but he does do research into some of the African deities (I guess?) and it reflects in his book. Also a fun read.

To Bob: Excellent show, ol' chap. What other fantasy/fiction tropes are used that come from the wild speculation of our racist great grandparents?

RJ Dalton:

templar1138a:
Very good episode. I more-or-less knew the information already, but you made it click. Now for my question.

Who would win: Anakin Skywalker or Gambit?

Gambit. Because Anakin Skywalker was apparently a cry-baby.

*glare* Take a look at Luke. It runs in the family. Get over it.

Deathlyphil:

Kitsuna10060:

Deathlyphil:
Non-Marvel, non-DC, possibly even non-Superhero comics please!

Antarctic Press has a lot of those
http://www.antarctic-press.com/

go, be free :D

OT:

did not know that about that trope, but its about as surprising as the sun coming up

Thanks for the link. Not quite what I was meaning, but thanks anyway. My point is that MovieBob only ever talks about Marvel and DC. It's like none of the other exist (Except when they are getting consumed by Marvel/DC).

XD!!

yeah, that's true, know what, I'm seconding you suggestion. there's gotta be more out that isn't Marvel or DC. hell i just stumble on to AP (and haven't left ether :D )

so yeah Bob, why don't you talk about the non Marvel and DC comic stuff ::Heresy inbound:: when there's, other, better company's out there that still HAVE imagination ::Heresy over::

Jegsimmons:
now if i may, do you (bob) think possibly that the reason they didnt think blacks built the civilizations was because that these were astounding castles and when they got there the people were....living in huts......thats sort of what is was thinking the whole vid. they probably thought that way because almost no other civilization has gone from castles to huts and seemed to move...backwards.
Now of course im not saying anything negative to be mean, i just like to think about all 3 sides of an issue (there's always at least 3 sides to any argument. Quiet frankly if i found a new civilization that lived in huts while finding remains of huge empires, i sort of wonder why the hell no one ever thought of rebuilding or replicating it for better living conditions. That may be part of the reason they couldn't believe they made it.

I was thinking that too, I mean, if they built it, why aren't they still building cities like that or improving on it or even still living there. From a "western" perspective, people have been living in the same cities for over 2000 years, Rome, Athens, London, Alexandria... It would seem odd that anyone would abandon these sites unless the people living there were no longer around, wouldn't it?

Anyway, question for Bob: Do you think movie theaters will ever "up their game" to compete with home viewing? Is simply being the place you can see it first good enough anymore when at home, its cheaper and more comfortable?

Mr Bobby bob bob, What is your experince with the Warhammer 40k universie? Have you read any of the books (which and by whom if you have), played the tabletop game or any of the video games? Do you like it, or do you think it is stupid?
Bonus question: Do you think that Red Dead Redemption would make a good western movie? Whom should do it then and why?

From MacNille :)

templar1138a:

RJ Dalton:

templar1138a:
Very good episode. I more-or-less knew the information already, but you made it click. Now for my question.

Who would win: Anakin Skywalker or Gambit?

Gambit. Because Anakin Skywalker was apparently a cry-baby.

*glare* Take a look at Luke. It runs in the family. Get over it.

Yeah, but Luke grew up over the course of the three movies. Anikan never grew up. He just put on a Darth Vader mask and was suddenly a whole different person.

Now, if it was Darth Vader versus Gambit, then there might actually be a challenge. Not much, obviously, because Gambit's attacks involve throwing explosives at people and Darth Vader can stop laser blasts with his hands, so I think Vader has it in the bag.

Even so, look at the difference between Anakin's and Luke's combat prowess. Whining doesn't enter into it.

It does enter into beating a long-dead horse. See what Bob has to say about that in this goody of an episode.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/5357-The-Phantom-Menace-13-Years-Later

I personally always wondered, where did you get these popping heads from?
Also, I want to know your thoughts on Punisher, almost the only in popular comic scene anti-hero. Will you probably do an episode about him?

"move beyond it"

You mean by droning on about antiquated relics so as to draw attention to its existence?

I find this swath of social outcry about as predictable and impractical as the movie reviews.

Yeah dwelling on the past because it was part of the past because some minor degree of it still holds residual influence on the present really seems like the best way to "move beyond it" now doesnt it? Because every doctor will tell you the best way to heal a flesh wound is to periodically rip off the scab to remind you the wound is still there and see how much it has healed since the last time you checked, amirite?

This is not being socially progressive. This psuedo intellectualism actually stunts social progression because it is indirectly perpetuating ignorance to inflate ones self esteem unjustly about how socially progressive they are In focusing on an incredibly narrow view and remaining completely oblivious to the big pictures existence. In essence Faux enlightenment. Its becoming so common now that im starting to think that its generation defining.

Evil Alpaca:
My only issue is with your statement about racism being an integral part of human history since the beginning. That's not really true since to be a racist, a person needs to feel as if they belong to a larger race of people than just their surrounding environment. The ancient Greeks weren't racist because they did not see themselves belonging to a superior race. An Athenian would see himself superior to his fellow Greeks and Greeks superior to Persians, Romans,or any other Mediterranean race. The concept of belonging to member of a "race" didn't come along much later until the Enlightenment when the scope of the world view had broadened.

It was defined differently, generally having more to do with ethnic origin than physical differences, but it existed. E.g., the word "barbarian" comes from an ancient Greek slur meaning "person who doesn't speak Greek". The concept was so pervasive that the Greek-speaking Byzantine Empire had a Bureau of Barbarians as late as a thousand years ago.

lralowicz:
Two things... Amm... Movie Bob?

1. I actually don't associate Lost City with Africa... More with South America... And I do know those cites were build by native people who lost their knowledge over time. Or were wiped out by more aggressive neighbours (or conquistadors...)

You don't, but the early examples of this trope in fiction--Haggard and Burroughs, as Bob mentioned--were inspired by the finding of real lost cities in Africa in the late 1800s. Later writers moved the concept to other parts of the world. South America became a popular location after 1911, when the Incan city of Machu Picchu was rediscovered.

lralowicz:
2. Isn't a bit racist (ok not racist... Equivalent of racism for nation - it's not nationalism either...) to use British as stereotype of stupid blind colonist? There were more countries sticking their noses to Africa than GB. It's like using Russians for baddies in almost every modern war game... Even upth years after end of cold war... (Vanquish... I'm looking at you)

That's true, but how many of those countries invented adventure fiction based on lost cities found in Africa, and if so, were they as internationally influential on later writers as the early British and later American writers in that respect? If there's a French or Dutch writer who inspired the creation of Indiana Jones, it's news to me.

DarkSpectre:
Its like the dark ages in Europe. If an outsider, like from China, saw the wooden shacks and huts of the people then these huge amazing ruins like Rome or Athens. They'd have to question what happened. Of course the answer would be from the barbarians that the sort invaded destroyed and killed the Romans without asking them how to make all that fancy stuff. A minor oversight yes.

Ninja'd!

Very interesting episode. While it was bigot for assuming that the African people weren't capable for building all of that stuff but one would think if they did build all that why is it in ruin? (Ok the answer is online somewhere I'm not going to dwell into it further).

As for my question to ask you- Who are those image of the guys you always use to repersent your emotion/ emote and also why use those image as your emotes?

How high do you think the probability of a Justice League film is in the relatively near future? (within 10 years) The inclusion of Amanda Waller in the admittedly bad GL film combined with the soon to be reboot of Superman are my primary reasons for positing said question. In addition DC traditionally has found it hard to stomach it when Marvel gets a leg up on them.

DarkSpectre:
I've never gotten the impression of Africa from most "lost city" stories. Almost always it seems to be South America and then it is pretty clear that it is the Mayans or Aztec, and we know they built them. The Spaniards just wiped them out. The other influence I see in the lost city trope is the Beng Mealea Temple. This second seems to be the source of more mystery than the South American ones. We know a lot of South America and why their cities are empty now (because they all got killed by the Spanish) what happened to Beng Mealea Temple is a lot more interesting of a topic.

It should be noted that South America has a very long line of civilizations. The usual down fall of each one being the rise of another civilization. For the most part, the South American ancient civilizations had a bad habit of killing each other off. When you lost a war, the city was leveled, the men were killed, the women and children were taken. This is pretty par for the course of the entire planet's ancient cultures up until someone found value in control over pillaging. This is why we find ruins in Africa, the Middle East, and every corner of the planet. The end result of most ancient civilizations was simply genocide by a neighboring civilization. What the Spaniards did was horrible, but it was the remnants of a long human tradition of mass murder.

One of the reasons we know so much about the ancient Roman, Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, and other long standing civilizations. Was because they instilled control over genocide as the norm for conquest.

@Jegsimmons, actually, most civilizations tend to move both forward and backward in terms of technology, quality of life, etc. Europe went through the dark ages after the fall of Rome. Incan and Aztec ruins are all over South America, Pakistan and Afganistan used to be the center of culture and learning in the world and China has moved forward and backward so many times on this scale its ridiculous. To believe that society generally only moves forward is, well, ignorant of all of history.

I have a quick question? Is it not possible that "because they're black" was only part of the issue? I mean the colonials arrive and see tribes and villages and then discover abandoned cities. Is it not common practice for civilisations to become more advanced as time passes? Y'know, if they v=built they cities why weren't they living in them now? Like Stargate, the stargate is more advanced than anything humans have ever created so they could tell there's good odds it's not a human relic.

grigjd3:
@Jegsimmons, actually, most civilizations tend to move both forward and backward in terms of technology, quality of life, etc. Europe went through the dark ages after the fall of Rome. Incan and Aztec ruins are all over South America, Pakistan and Afganistan used to be the center of culture and learning in the world and China has moved forward and backward so many times on this scale its ridiculous. To believe that society generally only moves forward is, well, ignorant of all of history.

We never said it's a good reason to think that way, just that a bunch of colonials might rock up and think it's odd that the natives are surrounded by relics that seem more modern than what they had. Plus these were adventurous types who were a little bit dull when it came to things like "there is no such thing as magic" and occam's razor. I think if it was a bunch of white people living there they would have come to much the same conclusion.

/eyeroll Or maybe those 1800s explorers were surprised to find signs of higher civilzation at all in areas of vast unmapped wilderness populated by spear chucking savages. Geez, make those spear chuckers all white or purple or green for that matter. The Lost City isn't racist, it's a damn mystery.

Here are the ruins of a civilization now crumbled in a region currently populated by spear chucking savages who are even more primitive than the nearby ruins. Oh, that's not politically correct, shall we call them "Primitive Aborigines" instead? Should we add "Noble" to that to help assuage your White Guilt?

Guess what? If all Africans looked caucasion they would still have been spear chucking savages for the colonials to exploit but as genetics would have it, they don't. Get over it.

Exterminas:
Is there any evidence in the comics that Batman and Robin had a homosexual relationship?
I mean aside from the chuckling-inspiring scenes of them having a Spa together. Or is that just one of these fun pop culture things, like saying that Bert and Ernie were Lovers?

(I don't want to bash homosexual people, mind you, I am just curious if there is actual evidence)

They did share a bed.

http://www.oddballdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/batman-robin-in-bed-together-e1308928955169.jpg

Bear in mind they lived in a mansion, they're generally not short on bedrooms. Plus there's the implication they shower together. Though the cold shower is the mark of the sexually frustrated.

Yes, yes, and The Lord of the Rings movies are an antidemocratic celebration of a strongman - of superior numenorian genetics, no less - righting a society gone wrong through putting it under his authoritarian rulership. All in the face of a black/white conflict with an ultimate evil of easily identifiable dirty foreigners from a hellish desert wasteland.

Or maybe it's all just good fun which one shouldn't read all kinds of political messages into. The fact that these days people are looking to Uncharted to find their daily dose of "racism" to educate the dirty masses on should tell you everything about how much of a non-issue it is (in case the accusation against Deus Ex:HR, Mafia II, Resident Evil 5, Left 4 Dead 2, Civilization IV: Colonization, and the Kinect motion controller didn't already).

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