The Big Picture: Relics

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Actually im not sure this is/was the case. Thing is the people who lived near these ruins or in the same area at least had nothing similar themselves. It may well be logical to think that the locals might not have been responsible as if they were why would they have subsequently abandoned them for seemingly worse conditions. I dont know if this was the case because i aint studied it but i dont think its fair to say that it was blatant racism which brought these things about. Not saying it wasnt or that the locals werent responsible just sayinf that it isnt fair to say that was the reason without explanation of where these ruins did infact come from. Also considering these ruins usually are the handy work of locals in the stories, if they are made by people, means it might not infact be as racist as depicted. There was racism going on and it was pretty terrible but I just see holes in this.

My question is: What do you think it would take for a MMORPG to have more subscribers than WOW? Where is the next step for this genre?

Excellent episode Bob, and a topic of particular interest to me. My father grew up in South Africa, and my mother lived there for a few years. We heard about a lot of outlandish racism growing up, but it was often the more subtle examples which had the most impact.

On the subject of subtle racism, and hitting you in home court, the last time I visited the Boston Museum of Science they'd opened a special hands-on room. It contained: bones, rocks, stuffed animals, and Native American artifacts. This was about a decade ago so maybe they're better about such things.

Question: If you put loads of sugar on a bagel, does that make it a donut?

SlothfulCobra:
That is to say, people have been trying to claim that there must've been some mystical/alien force helping the ancients build their wonders from the great Pyramids to Stonehenge, where everyone doubts that the very white, but not-german and not-roman Celts could've built something that a man built in his backyard.

Wow. Mind=blown. Thank you for that link.

OT
Huh, interesting stuff. Thank you for the brain-food, Bob. I wonder what the civilizations were like that built those structures. I also have to wonder how far they progressed technologically before they were pillaged.

I mean, the Romans had developed concrete, and that allegedly became a lost technology until it was "rediscovered" sometime in the 18th century. The Mayans are rumored to have developed a primitive battery and had also developed sophisticated mathmatics and astronomy.

It boggles the mind what can be gained and lost over time.

Like a lot of others here, I tend to veer towards South America when I hear the phrase "Lost City", but then I wasn't exposed to a lot of the stories you're addressing. My exposure to lost cities was in studying Mayan ruins in school

@Spot1990, well, there's tons of evidence of ruins throughout Europe that people lived in hovels next to. Anyhow, there is a prolonged historical argument that happened from around 1800 to 1950 about the origins of Inca and Aztec ruins that exhibits this sense of racism. You can read through letters of white historians saying there is no way these locals could have built such wonders. However, I am not so sure the transition to pop-culture icons such as turn of the century adventure writing and the Indiana Jones movies is real. If I am searching for a "Lost City", wouldn't it be more fun if I had to go somewhere exotic to find it rather than my back yard?

Awesome episode as always Bob. While we're on the matter of race, what do you think about the character design change that Aqualad went through from the comics to the Young Justice TV show?

image

I got it. people.

Dear Bob:
What is your favourite movie? (And for that matter what sort of music do you like aswell?).
Thanks for your time

for my question, i was wondering... although i agree with you on your views on racism in the Help and other movies like it, i was wondering why in that movie white people solving the problems of black people made me angry, while in say, to kill a mocking bird it didn't.

on a less serious question, what do you think of yahtzee not liking new super mario bros.

grigjd3:
@Spot1990, well, there's tons of evidence of ruins throughout Europe that people lived in hovels next to. Anyhow, there is a prolonged historical argument that happened from around 1800 to 1950 about the origins of Inca and Aztec ruins that exhibits this sense of racism. You can read through letters of white historians saying there is no way these locals could have built such wonders. However, I am not so sure the transition to pop-culture icons such as turn of the century adventure writing and the Indiana Jones movies is real. If I am searching for a "Lost City", wouldn't it be more fun if I had to go somewhere exotic to find it rather than my back yard?

Yeah as I said, it's not the best reasoning in the world. But people said the same kinda stuff about Newgrange here in Ireland. They didn't think we could have built it because based on our technology and culture at the time they didn't think we knew our arses from our elbows. It wasn't simply because "Irish people are stupid" they just couldn't see any evidence that Irish people of the time could've done something like that and by that logic more ancient Irish people certainly couldn't have.

Huh, okay then, questions... what are your thoughts on day-one DLC?

Well thankfully Bob added in that Liking the medias that take place in these locations doesn't make you a racist.

Otherwise this could have all been construed as another "If you don't think you're a racist then you're absolutely a racist" rants.

I'll make a top ten list of questions. Hopefully one will be answered. Won't mind if it's only one.

1) What's your favorite book? (Non-fiction or Fictional)
2) What book or book series would you like to see turned into film?
3) If you could place one Marvel comics superhero in the upcoming Avengers film that's not copyright protected from another film studio, who would you pick?
4) Related to the last question, which actor would play said superhero if you had to pick?
5) Any non-Marvel/DC/Archie comics you'd recommend that hasn't gained a cult following, such as Kiss-Ass or Watchmen, yet?
6) Thoughts on the war on drugs?
7) Since you like baking, what do you like best to bake?
8) Thoughts on conservatives complaints about the liberal media?
9) Favorite non-alcoholic drink?
10) Boxers or briefs?

I feel like European explorers assumed these lost cities were something like the lost city of atlantis or king solomon's diamond mines because they hoped they were more than they were racist. I would rather tell the King, Queen, or company that I worked for I found something legendary than just your average ruins, so they would think my venture was a smashing success.

I actually assumed this would be about a very similar popular trope in pop culture:
Aliens building the pyramids with space technology, cause humans can't move big rocks. I hate this trope, because it ignores human ingenuity.

I am VERY glad it wasn't, because I learned something new. I thought the LOST CITY thing had a different origin. But this one makes MUCH more sense, so thank you Movie Bob. Very enlightening episode.

I found something legendary than just your average ruins

Notice your term "average ruins".

Average of what? Think about this. That's why they couldn't do it, they had no measuring basis to compare the ruins to. Sure, SOME people knew about old ruins in britan, for example, but the explorers themselves most likely didn't.

Racism is a MUCH more likely explanation since the attitude that africans could not have a culture is well documented. It therefore is more likely than explorers using knowledge they didn't have.

Orks da best:
Dear MovieBob, what do you think of fans, fanboys, fangirls, fandon hatred, fandom entitlemt, and fandon whining.

Also you opinion on MLP: FIM would be greatly liked.

Wach episode 4 of Media Sandwich(part 2 of Bob's guest appearance). Near the end of the episode he has some positive things to say about the show, doesn't sound like he's full on brony though.

Hey what was the game : 4:30-4:32 ? (The side scroller with the Indiana Jone look alike - sorry if its classic lore , I'm from Eastern Europe , not many classic game consoles in my youth - none in fact )

Question for Bob : I remember you joking about ID in the Paul movie review. Could it be you are a pastafarian and have been touched by the FSM and his noodle appendage ? If so wen did you convert ? /irony

Wasn't the Natives of Africa that the colonist came upon nomads primarily? I don't really know much about that time and their architect but if the tribes were mostly nomads or had more wooden and mud huts, (not trying to be racist I'm just not all that knowledgeable about architect in general and I'm going off what I have seen in videos today and read about in books like the Book of Negros) then it would be confusing to exploders about where those structures came from. Though still it is logical that the people who lived in Africa came from the builders of those structures.

My question: What do you think about events in comics that don't really change anything.

I have a question for you Movie Bob. What is your Opinion of the Mass Effect series? Do you think the franchise could stand as an example if interactive art?

PlasmaCow:
A good point well made there.

Mailbag question:
I recall that way back when you reviewed the first Guy Ritchie Sherlock Holmes film you mentioned that you hadn't seen any of the BBCs modern-day Sherlock series. I was wondering if you have seen any or all of the 6 TV-Film "episodes" since then and, if so, what your thoughts are on the modern day retelling and the series production as a whole.

Aaaand you just asked my question. :D Next series starts filming early 2013, it's gonna be a long wait~ ;A;

OT: Very well put Bob, people forget how powerful language and the arts can be in shaping how we think of other cultures, other counrties and other 'races'.

Since you said TV is something you don't know about I won't ask you about Downton Abbey even if I dearly want to, I would like you opion on adaptions and the increase of the overt adaption in film and TV these days.

In the past when adapting a book or a play filmmakers would be, most of the time, more coy about their sources and sometimes audiences would only find out it was a loose adaption in the credits, but now adaptions shout to the rooftops they are adaptions even if they know that many fans of the orginal will never be pleased and that staying to close to the soruce can mean the film can't be as artisic (in the way only films can) as they would like to be.

Is it just about money and publicity? Or has somthing happened in the studios that have ment that the bosses just won't bet on a unknown property?

Interesting timing on this episode. Just yesterday, my father sent me information on the prevalence of the "monster" (in loose terms) in America and how expectations of monsters in the new world shaped early colonial beliefs about the Native population of the Americas.

It's not exactly the same, but it does sort of mirror the logic going on here. Just...Backwards.

DVS BSTrD:
The Temple of Doom was easily always my least favorite out of all three Indiana Jones movies.
Because there were only three
ONLY THREE.

Uggh. that reminds me, did you see that ridiculous fan film where he fights aliens? I think it's called the Rise and Fall of Indiana Jones and the Spiders From Mars.

Sadly, no Bowie.

ablac:
Actually im not sure this is/was the case. Thing is the people who lived near these ruins or in the same area at least had nothing similar themselves. It may well be logical to think that the locals might not have been responsible as if they were why would they have subsequently abandoned them for seemingly worse conditions. I dont know if this was the case because i aint studied it but i dont think its fair to say that it was blatant racism which brought these things about. Not saying it wasnt or that the locals werent responsible just sayinf that it isnt fair to say that was the reason without explanation of where these ruins did infact come from. Also considering these ruins usually are the handy work of locals in the stories, if they are made by people, means it might not infact be as racist as depicted. There was racism going on and it was pretty terrible but I just see holes in this.

Of course, you're trying to retcon history by applying today's filters to things.

Haven't seen Temple of Doom nor do I get what Bob is implying about in the racism of Indiana Jones.

My guess is maybe he's referring to the tribe in the Temple of Doom.

Although that tribe is based off a real life tribe that really did kill tourists and people outside their religion all the time.

Again this is just a guess, it could be he's referring to something else, but just thought I should leave that there.

Good Episode as Normal :)

Question:

What one Comic/Book/Film/Random Hallucination would you like made/remade into a film?

Personally, I want a decent film version of Hellblazer. The Constantine film with Keanu Reeves was OK, but seem to lack the feel of the comics..

About the lost city things. We have those in the U.S. and whatnot but we just call them ghosttowns and the tropes involved with them are a lot different.

Although to be fair the culture the ghost towns probably had is a lot more familiar than African culture.

I know this sounds like I'm saying the lost city trope is not really racist, but I'm not.

interesting information.
Thanks bob

Zachary Amaranth:

ablac:
Actually im not sure this is/was the case. Thing is the people who lived near these ruins or in the same area at least had nothing similar themselves. It may well be logical to think that the locals might not have been responsible as if they were why would they have subsequently abandoned them for seemingly worse conditions. I dont know if this was the case because i aint studied it but i dont think its fair to say that it was blatant racism which brought these things about. Not saying it wasnt or that the locals werent responsible just sayinf that it isnt fair to say that was the reason without explanation of where these ruins did infact come from. Also considering these ruins usually are the handy work of locals in the stories, if they are made by people, means it might not infact be as racist as depicted. There was racism going on and it was pretty terrible but I just see holes in this.

Of course, you're trying to retcon history by applying today's filters to things.

Well no, as I've said things like Newgrange have also raised those kinds of questions and guess what, there wasn't a lot of black people in Ireland. The colonials did see the natives as savages to be exploited no doubt, and they were racist of course but all we're saying is that that may not be the reason they thought there was some mystery behind these ruins.

Racism isn't that old a concept, actually. It's mostly colonial, which means it's only as old as... well, the United States.

Earlier than that "racism" was not as much of a thing, mostly thanks to slavery.

Wait, wait, hear me out. In ancient times (think Roman Empire) slaves were people that had lost wars and been captured. They were mostly brought over to wherever the winners lived and sold to local people as indentured servants. What that means is that the more wars a culture waged the more forceful migrants were... erm... recruited.

Rome fought a lot of wars.

Plus the conquerors would also move to the new territories. Wars back then weren't a matter of months, but rather years or decades. People had children and mingled quite a bit more with the locals.

And, believe it or not, they treated slaves way better than Americans did when they took to the practice. Slaves weren't really property, in most periods and regions it was frowned upon (or even outright illegal) to beat them up or kill them. And it was a tradition to free slaves in celebrations or when you died. And when a slave was freed, he became a full-on citizen, with all the rights and privileges of the people who were born and lived as free men in the city.

See the picture that paints? Go to war, get yourself a bunch of prisoners, have them live in your house with your family for a decade or two, then free them and they become citizens themselves. Rather cosmopolitan, right? Add to that the fact that the Roman Empire ended up covering large parts of Africa, Turkey and all of Europe and you get a pretty blendy racial melange. Roman emperor Bassianus was born in Syria. Yeah, I'm not shitting you. He wasn't the only one, either, there was at least another one. And at least two were born in Spain. And one in France.

Later, in the Middle Ages, a bunch of kings and queens kicked out Muslims and Jews, most famously from Spain. Now, that wasn't because they were African or Israelis (they weren't actually, they were Spanish, born and raised), but because they weren't Christian. In fact, they were allowed to stay if they converted, regardless of their skin colour. That's not racist, either, it's religious fanatism.

Although I'm sure there were some racial prejudices (although I imagine they'd assume the guys in the next town over are from a different "race", too), it's during colonialism and the birth of nationalism when race, culture and the concept of "civilization" become one and the same and Eurocentric views degenerate into ethnocentric views. Which, of course, ends up leading to imperialism, which in turn leads to... well, the World Wars.

RaffB:
Good Episode as Normal :)

Question:

What one Comic/Book/Film/Random Hallucination would you like made/remade into a film?

Personally, I want a decent film version of Hellblazer. The Constantine film with Keanu Reeves was OK, but seem to lack the feel of the comics..

By that you mean it was lacking a blonde, cocky, wisecracking Scouse I'm assuming. Seriousy could Keanu Reeves have been further removed from the original character?

Probably had less to do with the decedents being black and more to do with the decedents appearing to be more primitive than the people who built the ruins originally. The same thing happened with American ruins like the Mayans. Since the existing culture seems to be a step backwards from the older culture it makes people wonder what happened. This isn't a racial thing. There are ancient lost cities discovered in places like China and India, but since the culture there was as or more advanced than the ruins no one questioned their origins. Of course since the cultures in America and Africa were more primitive and looked down uppon it likely did color the line of reasoning going forwards.

Very good episode quite obvious but still good and, I admit, I've thought "who built this" (about ruins etc.) but now realize I shouldn't be asking the question that way. I should ask (because it's that part that interests me..) "why did the people who built this abandon it and where did they go?"
Almost same question but so very different answers...

For the mailbox:
Do you read books(non comics...), and if you do what kind and/or authors?
And how can so many really bad movies get funding (like Uwe Bols...)?

Movie Bob, what do you make or take of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic? It's so big that it has a lot for you to cover even if you don't watch the episodes. However I think another question to cover would be your take on endings of video games.. if a video game should have a sequel or so forth. Same goes to movies I suppose.

Also good episode it got me to think about the facts and comparing it with the movies we have today.

Bob, I admired your stance that Star Wars Episode 1 was merely average bordering on bad instead of the "Worst Thing Ever" a lot of people claim it to be. I think that too is a victim of what I called the Ghostbusters 2 effect in other posts in these forums.

So my mailbag question is what Sequels/Prequels/Adaptations have received the most undeserved hate from fans?

I'm sorry, but I think this episode totally missed the target. It just looking into things too much. Or to put it in net speak and to show my stress: "WTH!?" and "This is bull!"
How the hell did this thought process come to be!?

Sure racism was present, but seriously look at it from the perspective of coming to an exotic uncharted lands (or poorly charted) and having no clue about the history of the place but you see a bunch of nomads and (let's face it, and this I'm not using as a insulting term) primitive agricultural tribes - would you expect to find a big lost stone city? The hell you would.
In for example Europe, there are ruins, but there are also contemporary buildings on a massive scale, in southern and central Africa not so much (at least not at those times).
I guess thinking Acropolis in Athens or the Pyramids in Egypt are amazing work and I still find it hard to understand how they did it way back then...then that makes me a racist?

And with all that, the whole of Europe shows that history of a civilization is not always consistent in progress - for example the knowledge from the ancient cultures was even lost until renesansse and such. Cultures disappear all the time, the only problem (and mistake) would be to think there wasn't something before the current dominant culture that is seen - that does not make you a freaking racist.
Some times it is a whole different culture. You have to assume if there's a big city a few miles from you, all tangled in bushes, but you live in a hut, that you probably don't even know the city is there or are not occupying because of some other reason, it does however imply that you are not directly connected to it - does that mean you culture got more advanced or not, not really important, it points to being a change in your culture for sure.

The authors you mentioned wrote stories about "lost civilizations" and "lost cities" as much as on Mars or somewhere else. Thing is it's UNKNOWN and EXOTIC. And what is it to a regular person living in North American and European cultures? Well Africa and South and Central America and Eastern Asia. Most have never been there and the cultures are really different.
They didn't talk about lost cities (unless underground I guess) in Europe, because people knew what was in Europe, Europe was charted and explored and familiar.
Besides that, those were basically adventure and fantasy novels, that's not really racism, though there is I guess racism in their writings.

Zachary Amaranth:
Of course, you're trying to retcon history by applying today's filters to things.

And Bob was not? He actually said it himself racism was just there in those times.

Vault Citizen:
Sadly at this point in history it was an assumption held by colonialists that Africa had no history.

Here's the thing though... When you find a civilization much inferior to your own, and later you find something far more advanced right next to them, why would you assume its made by them. Confusingly worded, but here's my point:

Small villages in africa and "subdeveloped" tribes and shit, make their houses of mud and tree branches and such, if you find buildings made out of stone and with much better architecture/stability and size, why would you ever assume it was made by them. A culture deciding to go backwards in technology is not the norm and as such that thought would completely be illogical.

Anybody care to discuss this?

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