Mass Effect 3 Gets An Ending

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Barely read the first page. The last time I read an Extra Punctuation (are these things still called this?), it was the same deal. This is missing the point, to put it softly, on so many different things.

idarkphoenixi:

I'll try to make it really simple:
When you are promised a wide variety of vastly different endings by multiple people, multiple times...and what you get is one ending in 3 colours...that tends to piss people off. It's not about changing the ending to cater for each individuals preference, it's not about making it a super happy ending where everyone lives and goes home. It's simply about doing what was promised would happen.

samaugsch:

Probably because they don't. According to a number of people, Bioware promised that their choices would matter in the end, but it didn't, at least in their eyes. They felt that Bioware pretty much lied to them in this area, thus the reason that so many people are demanding that they change their ending (might be too late for that though).

No, everyone GETS that. EVERYONE understands this is why a lot of people are pissed (don't forget lots of people have listed other reasons too). There is no confusion on this point, and I promise you, Yahtzee understands people are mad because they didn't get what was promised. That's not what Yahtzee's arguing. No one is suddenly saying, "Let's not hold developers accountable." Some people might be saying, "Why the hell are you listening to presale hype?" but no one's saying developers lying isn't wrong.

Yahtzee, and the majority of bloggers that don't agree with Retaking ME, are arguing that it's a bad precedent to set that every story can be changed if the fans yell loud enough and long enough. You're both on completely different pages and that's not entirely his fault.

Holy fuck. How did enraged fan boys get a more fair, even handed treatmet from Yahtzee, "Master Fan Boy Baiter" Crenshaw then they got from Movie Bob?

When did Movie Bob supplant Yahtzee as the Escapist's shock jockey?

Don't understand the Mass Effect ending furore. I mean, feel disappointment, sure. But petition Bioware to make a new ending? That doesn't "undo" the ending. The ending is the one they gave it; another would merely tack onto it, an alternate ending.

I was disappointed by the end of the Peter F. Hamilton's "Void Trilogy". That continued on from another two books, so in total I had read about 5,000 pages before reaching that ending. And it was disappointing. But I didn't go email the man and demand he re-write the ending. That would be ridiculous...

I never played Mass Effect anything. But, hearing the uproar, I was present when my heavily invested fiance finished it.

You know, listening to that old man talk about The Shepard story to the kid, the ending made sense to me in that Storyteller Recapping Legend sense, where it really doesn't make any sort of logical sense, but it's told because of the epicness of it. And then, when the kid asks for more Shepard stories? Oh yeah, that sounds like an invitation to explain the ending in a non-legend-story sense.

Plus, y'know, that big ol' grinning 'buy the DLC!' sign they hung up at the very end didn't ring any alarm bells? You have an ending that is essentially a cliffhanger, and then the old man, the kid and the DLC sign?

What I do know is that my fiance was very, very depressed. So, good job on the story department there, even though I do think it was pretty cheap thrills!

For an ending to a trilogy, it didn't feel like an ending to me so much as a 'come back later!'

FedericoV:

irishda:

Did he? Did he REALLY miss the point? Did he "assume" your stance despite the countless thousands of threads spent by so many of you solidifying your points? Is it more likely he characterized your positions in a way that made you look unfavorable and now you're just assuming he "doesn't understand"? Maybe you guys are assuming his position.

He is completely missing the point because he is speaking of something he has no idea about and he is not even interested a lot to begin with by his own admission. He is just supporting Bioware so his editor will be happy.

That's all I needed to hear.

irishda:

idarkphoenixi:

I'll try to make it really simple:
When you are promised a wide variety of vastly different endings by multiple people, multiple times...and what you get is one ending in 3 colours...that tends to piss people off. It's not about changing the ending to cater for each individuals preference, it's not about making it a super happy ending where everyone lives and goes home. It's simply about doing what was promised would happen.

samaugsch:

Probably because they don't. According to a number of people, Bioware promised that their choices would matter in the end, but it didn't, at least in their eyes. They felt that Bioware pretty much lied to them in this area, thus the reason that so many people are demanding that they change their ending (might be too late for that though).

No, everyone GETS that. EVERYONE understands this is why a lot of people are pissed (don't forget lots of people have listed other reasons too). There is no confusion on this point, and I promise you, Yahtzee understands people are mad because they didn't get what was promised. That's not what Yahtzee's arguing. No one is suddenly saying, "Let's not hold developers accountable." Some people might be saying, "Why the hell are you listening to presale hype?" but no one's saying developers lying isn't wrong.

Yahtzee, and the majority of bloggers that don't agree with Retaking ME, are arguing that it's a bad precedent to set that every story can be changed if the fans yell loud enough and long enough. You're both on completely different pages and that's not entirely his fault.

Oh ok. Up to this point, I didn't notice anyone other than the complainers mention that. I also assumed that when those people say that you "just don't get it", they meant that they were frustrated with Bioware lying to them.

Again, the OP misses the point completely. What is it with journalists all `catching` blindness with this specific issue? You're not as invested in this series as some of the other journalists who've missed the point, but wow... Not one, other than the guys at GS, actually seemed to have given the fans a fair look.

The "artistic" direction they took isn't at issue. The standard of their work, which is frankly sub-fanfiction in the last 5 minutes-- a visual diatribe of plot holes(1) and inconsistencies with the lore that cheapen the entire investiture made by the fans, *that* is at issue.

1. Why normandy using relays? When and why did Joker leave the battle for Earth? How, without the sudden invention, construction and integration of beaming tech, do the squad members from London get aboard for the ass-pull EDEN WORLD FINALE? These and more.

There's also the small matter of these.
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10056886/1

You make statements and promises and your game isn't bang on them, that's called overstatement. Sometimes you overstate the virtues of something and you take peoples' money when you otherwise wouldn't have. That's pretty wrong.

Then there's lying. Presumably you've seen the ending, Yahtzee. Don't you think it made a lie of virtually everything in the OP of that thread? Don't you think that when those promises made up a part of the basis for my purchase of the game, I'm well within reason to say "Make adjustments or give me the money back"?

What we want is a finale that makes fucking sense. That'd be nice. If they're feeling super generous, then a finale that I couldn't have written myself during a restless nights' sleep with a pen sticking out of my ass would be a WILD bonus.

I and my fellow complainants don't care about the narrative or "artistic" direction, this isn't about those things. They could make a finale we'd hate and quite a lot of us would still support them- I would. Provided that those promises still got met and it wasn't riddled with holes.

Once more for the other Escapists, that is NOT about integrity, it's about STANDARDS. Works of literature, STORIES, are not like paintings. You can't stand back and go "oh well, there is no good or bad, there's just the ARTÉSTES VISIÓNE", like some awful worshipper of 'fine art'. Stories can be screwed up by objective, cut and dried mistakes. And that happened here big time.

http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

Great read, pretty much nails it.

Personally, all for artistic integrity.

Had there been any in this case, the game wouldn't of shipped as is.

Is not THAT the point?

If properties are disposable, does that not mitigate the value of art?

How many Journalist have working experience in or with industrial design?

Is the art gambit simply a hedge to attempt to transcend commercial products (toys) to a different status as self justification for further purchases with an aging demographic?

Clearly Patcher of GT seems to think they are just "products".

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/what-would-pach-attack/728335

Concluding that the problem with "video games" is that "gamers" whine to much.

In a perfect world the business model would look more like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvDu3IysKiM&feature=related

anthony87:

FinalHeart95:
So far, every time someone has argued against the "Retake Mass Effect" movement, the overwhelming response is that the person "doesn't get it", most without actually saying what there is to get.
Just for future reference, if you really want to tell someone that they "don't get it", tell them what it is exactly they don't get. By not providing this, it just looks like you're saying it because it's the only way you can think of to defend yourself, even if it's not. (Also, ironically, some of the "he doesn't get it" posts actually missed the point of the article...)

Also, I stand by my opinion that it's not your game, so it's not your ending. You have o right to change it. Sue for false advertising all you want, that doesn't mean Bioware is obligated to change the ending. Sorry.

Alright then, here's what people don't seem to be getting:

http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

To be honest I hate putting down a link and calling it "proof" or whatever but the guy who wrote that said it all a million times better than I could.

Except people do get that the ending objectively fails. But why is it different than when so many other works fail to live up to the hype? Why is it that people feel as if they have a right to change this game any more than any others? You don't have the rights to Mass Effect 3. You don't have the right to decide how it ends. You have the right to hate the ending, but not the right to "Retake" a game that was never yours to begin with

irishda:
Yahtzee, and the majority of bloggers that don't agree with Retaking ME, are arguing that it's a bad precedent to set that every story can be changed if the fans yell loud enough and long enough. You're both on completely different pages and that's not entirely his fault.

The problem I have with that argument is that it assumes every game can provoke the kind of backlash we're seeing with ME3.

Let's be honest: this is hardly the first game where the ending falls flat. But the outrage here isn't about the ending, not really; rather, it's because BioWare established a very high standard of storytelling quality across three games, and then fell substantially short of that standard in the last ten minutes of the last game. That's not exactly commonplace: you can usually tell when a game is poorly-written within half an hour and adjust your expectations accordingly.

If BioWare agrees to compose a different ending - one that at least addresses the general faults of the current conclusion - I would hope the only precedent to be set would be "Don't be complacent and let your standards slip when programming endgame content."

Falcon123:

anthony87:

FinalHeart95:
So far, every time someone has argued against the "Retake Mass Effect" movement, the overwhelming response is that the person "doesn't get it", most without actually saying what there is to get.
Just for future reference, if you really want to tell someone that they "don't get it", tell them what it is exactly they don't get. By not providing this, it just looks like you're saying it because it's the only way you can think of to defend yourself, even if it's not. (Also, ironically, some of the "he doesn't get it" posts actually missed the point of the article...)

Also, I stand by my opinion that it's not your game, so it's not your ending. You have o right to change it. Sue for false advertising all you want, that doesn't mean Bioware is obligated to change the ending. Sorry.

Alright then, here's what people don't seem to be getting:

http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

To be honest I hate putting down a link and calling it "proof" or whatever but the guy who wrote that said it all a million times better than I could.

Except people do get that the ending objectively fails. But why is it different than when so many other works fail to live up to the hype? Why is it that people feel as if they have a right to change this game any more than any others? You don't have the rights to Mass Effect 3. You don't have the right to decide how it ends. You have the right to hate the ending, but not the right to "Retake" a game that was never yours to begin with

I really think you're taking the "Retake" in "Retake Mass Effect" way too seriously. It's meant as a play on the "Retake Earth" or "Take back Earth" thing that was floating around prior to the games release.

What people are looking for is basically what Bethesda done with Fallout 3. Why is this such a bad thing?

From the sounds of it the arguments and grips about the ending are to be expected.

Give the audience a "Lady or the Tiger" kind of ending only encourages the audience to backlash and demand a real ending. Frank Stockton was harassed for years for writing the story, and giving an audience that was not expecting an open ended pick your ending but we won't show you what happened ending will just anger people.

This also sounds a bit like the Death of Sherlock Holmes. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wanted to end the series and make it so he didn't have to write anymore Sherlock books. So he wrote the his death into a story, and ended up enraging his entire audience. Which then forced him to write another book where Sherlock comes back and explains how he lived though the fall.

The audience was clearly expecting some form of finality and the series didn't do enough prep work for that kind of an ending its given. I'd expect a "Lady or the Tiger" style of ending in Survival Horror. In a Space Opera I don't know of any cases where that was deliberately done outside of the author giving up in the middle of the series (usually the death of the author or burnout) or where it was canceled prior to a finally. When it "appears" to be done it's usually done as the cliff hanger for a sequel.

I half expect the given ending was left the way it was so that some future Expantion or DLC could be done as Aftermath.

Diana Kingston-Gabai:

irishda:
Yahtzee, and the majority of bloggers that don't agree with Retaking ME, are arguing that it's a bad precedent to set that every story can be changed if the fans yell loud enough and long enough. You're both on completely different pages and that's not entirely his fault.

The problem I have with that argument is that it assumes every game can provoke the kind of backlash we're seeing with ME3.

Let's be honest: this is hardly the first game where the ending falls flat. But the outrage here isn't about the ending, not really; rather, it's because BioWare established a very high standard of storytelling quality across three games, and then fell substantially short of that standard in the last ten minutes of the last game. That's not exactly commonplace: you can usually tell when a game is poorly-written within half an hour and adjust your expectations accordingly.

If BioWare agrees to compose a different ending - one that at least addresses the general faults of the current conclusion - I would hope the only precedent to be set would be "Don't be complacent and let your standards slip when programming endgame content."

Now, Bioware is certainly at fault for falling flat here, but the precedent is still set. Games can be changed at the behest of the gamers. Then if the developer refuses, does that make them worse than Bioware then because they're not catering to their customers every demands?

So Mass Effect thematically asserts that scientific progress and sentient civilization, no matter how great they become, are inevitably doomed to be destroyed so everything can restart.

Am I the only one who thinks that to be the most cynical, pessimistic thing any science fiction writer could possibly squirt from his pen?

A Science Fiction story is a wondrously blank slate of infinite proportions. It can be filled by anything our minds can conjure. What kind of neurotic shithead would enter this slate. And then revert to the real-world popular belief that man dare not try to become more than they are? Things like Sci-Fi are meant to give people hope. What Mass Effect ultimately gives is the hope that one day, we can have hope.

When men one day become space-faring badasses they're going to dig up the Mass Effect trilogy, play it and think: this certainly didn't help us get as far as we actually did.

irishda:

FedericoV:

irishda:

Did he? Did he REALLY miss the point? Did he "assume" your stance despite the countless thousands of threads spent by so many of you solidifying your points? Is it more likely he characterized your positions in a way that made you look unfavorable and now you're just assuming he "doesn't understand"? Maybe you guys are assuming his position.

He is completely missing the point because he is speaking of something he has no idea about and he is not even interested a lot to begin with by his own admission. He is just supporting Bioware so his editor will be happy.

That's all I needed to hear.

"Dragon Age 2 is the best RPG of the year".

That's what I do not wanted to read in The Escapist.

The people saying that they actually "get it" in response to the people saying that they don't "get it" don't really seem to "get it."

It's really damn clear that Mass Effect 3 didn't ship as a full product, either because of time/budget restraints or to lead into end-game DLC. Either way, it's really obvious that the writers did not want the story to end like that, because the ending is objectively SHIT.

Changing the ending isn't an injustice in the slightest, because the current ending wasn't the planned ending to begin with.

Well shit son. That's actually a fairly reasonable argument, but I still don't think the ending is very good. The problem I have with it is that it drops so much new stuff on you (like that star-child thing and the fact that the mass relays all explode) that it just doesn't give you enough time to absorb it all in. If they had paced this stuff out over the game then it would have been better and people might not have complained. But the fact that they drop it all at the end without any foreshadowing is what makes the ending awful.

irishda:
Now, Bioware is certainly at fault for falling flat here, but the precedent is still set. Games can be changed at the behest of the gamers. Then if the developer refuses, does that make them worse than Bioware then because they're not catering to their customers every demands?

I think it would be more accurate to say that the precedent being set is: "Games can be changed at the behest of the gamers, provided there is a massive, substantial and easily quantified backlash which exceeds the volume of objections typically raised by habitual complainers."

Because, really, the sheer scale and scope of negative reactions to ME3's ending - and it's the ending specifically, not ME3 itself - exceed any other game I can think of. Discussion of Fallout 3's questionable ending wasn't nearly so virulent when Bethesda put out "Broken Steel"...

anthony87:

Falcon123:

anthony87:

Alright then, here's what people don't seem to be getting:

http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

To be honest I hate putting down a link and calling it "proof" or whatever but the guy who wrote that said it all a million times better than I could.

Except people do get that the ending objectively fails. But why is it different than when so many other works fail to live up to the hype? Why is it that people feel as if they have a right to change this game any more than any others? You don't have the rights to Mass Effect 3. You don't have the right to decide how it ends. You have the right to hate the ending, but not the right to "Retake" a game that was never yours to begin with

I really think you're taking the "Retake" in "Retake Mass Effect" way too seriously. It's meant as a play on the "Retake Earth" or "Take back Earth" thing that was floating around prior to the games release.

What people are looking for is basically what Bethesda done with Fallout 3. Why is this such a bad thing?

If you're not not taking the phrase "retake" seriously, you're not the people that others are calling entitled. There are people who genuinely believe it's their right to retake the game, and those are the people that Yahtzee and others are writing against

Falcon123:

Alright then, here's what people don't seem to be getting:

http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

To be honest I hate putting down a link and calling it "proof" or whatever but the guy who wrote that said it all a million times better than I could.

Man, that was a great read.

It's a shame the Retake detractors can't be bothered to take articles like these in, and it's a bigger shame that the overwhelming trend among the gaming press has been to take the piss out of the upset ME3 fans among its audience, usually while missing the point completely- Yahtzee included. I'd excuse him for not really knowing jack or caring about ME3 to begin with, but if you're going to comment on a debate, you need to count the assumptions you're making about either side before you start, and get the numbers as close to zero as you can. He didn't do that.

Thanks for the link anyway. I'll add it to the arsenal.

Yahtzee, read that link for f's sake. To take your own statement, the author of that blog doesn't have a cock for a head, and he knows better than and can help people who do.

irishda:

Now, Bioware is certainly at fault for falling flat here, but the precedent is still set. Games can be changed at the behest of the gamers. Then if the developer refuses, does that make them worse than Bioware then because they're not catering to their customers every demands?

The issue isn't that Bioware made a shitty ending. It's that they (the head guys) KNEW they were making a shitty ending for whatever reason but went ahead anyway.

It has nothing to do with changing at the behest of gamers, and more to do with the developers purposely slacking on the content and giving a bullshit ending rather than their own planned, decent endings.

Woodsey:

Sandytimeman:
Yeah, I feel like most journalists / critcs are on a completely different wave length then us gamers.

That being said I don't think bioware should have to remake the ending I just don't want to buy anything they sell ever again. Almost 300+ hours of game play to give me some depressing ass story where everyone fucking dies. Could have saved myself 80 bucks and 35 hours if I had just let shepard die in ME2...

TL;DR fuck bioware and don't buy from them anymore.

So... what? You'll only lay down The Dolla for happy endings?

I don't mind bittersweet endings but what was the point of the game if everyone, and by everyone I mean all of galactic fleet of every combined race, and pretty much anything near a mass relay.

I read the first few comments expecting people to be adamant about how he missed the point. I wasn't disappointed. Always good for a laugh fanboys are.

Yahtzee clearly missed the point, moving on.

If you want to know yathzees real feelings look at his Deus Ex:HR review

so, you wanted a bittersweet ending, but one where nothing of actual value is lost, except for a token gesture of symbolic emotion that doesn't actually mean anything

still the disney ending, but with a tweest so that you think that it's sophisticated, even though all they did was tack it on

satisfying but not ground breaking

btw, the ending doesn't actually have everybody dying if you didn't mess up with the assets and the readiness :P

all i want is to see each major character in the last moments of battle, really

Candidus:

Falcon123:

Alright then, here's what people don't seem to be getting:

http://jmstevenson.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/all-that-matters-is-the-ending-part-2-mass-effect-3/

To be honest I hate putting down a link and calling it "proof" or whatever but the guy who wrote that said it all a million times better than I could.

Man, that was a great read.

It's a shame the Retake detractors can't be bothered to take articles like these in, and it's a bigger shame that the overwhelming trend among the gaming press has been to take the piss out of the upset ME3 fans among its audience, usually while missing the point completely- Yahtzee included. I'd excuse him for not really knowing jack or caring about ME3 to begin with, but if you're going to comment on a debate, you need to count the assumptions you're making about either side before you start, and get the numbers as close to zero as you can. He didn't do that.

Thanks for the link anyway. I'll add it to the arsenal.

You're....welcome?

Not sure why it's saying that Falcon was the one who wrote it but anyway it is a pretty damn good read. That little paragraph near the end about the "artistic integrity" nonsense is probably what stuck out the most for me.

anthony87:

You're....welcome?

Not sure why it's saying that Falcon was the one who wrote it but anyway it is a pretty damn good read. That little paragraph near the end about the "artistic integrity" nonsense is probably what stuck out the most for me.

Whoops, that's probably my fault. I quoted it in a response that had already accumulated several quote boxes and must have deleted incorrectly. Pardons.

The bit you mention is exactly the bit that made me think "Why the hell didn't I just say that?"

Sandytimeman:

Woodsey:

Sandytimeman:
Yeah, I feel like most journalists / critcs are on a completely different wave length then us gamers.

That being said I don't think bioware should have to remake the ending I just don't want to buy anything they sell ever again. Almost 300+ hours of game play to give me some depressing ass story where everyone fucking dies. Could have saved myself 80 bucks and 35 hours if I had just let shepard die in ME2...

TL;DR fuck bioware and don't buy from them anymore.

So... what? You'll only lay down The Dolla for happy endings?

I don't mind bittersweet endings but what was the point of the game if everyone, and by everyone I mean all of galactic fleet of every combined race, and pretty much anything near a mass relay.

So the entire series is rendered pointless by the ending being too depressing or destructive?

Super Fooby:
Well shit son. That's actually a fairly reasonable argument, but I still don't think the ending is very good. The problem I have with it is that it drops so much new stuff on you (like that star-child thing and the fact that the mass relays all explode) that it just doesn't give you enough time to absorb it all in. If they had paced this stuff out over the game then it would have been better and people might not have complained. But the fact that they drop it all at the end without any foreshadowing is what makes the ending awful.

There is foreshadowing for the 'kid', but yes, it could have been threaded through the game better, and the ending paced more appropriately.

So Yahtzee is totally on board with Bioware f**king up their story George Lucas style? He does know both JarJar and "Star Killer" also fall under that impenetrable umbrella of 'Well it's the story the creator wanted', right?

Yeah, they do. And of course you have every right not to like Jar Jar Binks and wish fervently that the prequels had been better, but that doesn't change the fact that it's Lucas' story.

The same Lucas who hates The Empire Strikes Back, coincidentally the one film almost universally considered the best in the series?

The V Man:
I won't be playing ME3. The Mass Effect series has always felt bland to me. And now, knowing how ti all ends, I have no reason to continue.

I think what is most disappointing though is that the ending isn't even original. Maybe some of you have heard of FreeSpace? In the last mission you and a squad of bombers go on a suicide mission and fight through hyperspace to stop the massive death-ship from reaching Earth and culminating in the destruction of said death-ship AND the jump nodes that link back to Earth. It ends and you're more of less certain the explosion kills everyone and the epilogue states how Earth is now unreachable - which strands both humans and Vasudans (and probably a few Shivans too) there with no way to return back home.

So, yeah. Too bad about that 'epic' ending.

Hold on a moment, don't reject the game for the last ten minutes of it! From the beginning to the point before the end, the game is perfect - everything feels right. Try to pretend that the ending isn't real. That's what I did and that helped me swallow the crapfest.

BuddhaMike:

So Yahtzee is totally on board with Bioware f**king up their story George Lucas style? He does know both JarJar and "Star Killer" also fall under that impenetrable umbrella of 'Well it's the story the creator wanted', right?

Yeah, they do. And of course you have every right not to like Jar Jar Binks and wish fervently that the prequels had been better, but that doesn't change the fact that it's Lucas' story.

The same Lucas who hates The Empire Strikes Back, coincidentally the one film almost universally considered the best in the series?

Yep. Still his story.

Woodsey:

So the entire series is rendered pointless by the ending being too depressing or destructive?

No, the entire series is rendered pointless by the many plot holes created by the ending, and is made even worse by the lack of closure and sick invitation to buy DLC PLOX OKAY?! Plenty of great links have been posted in this thread with comprehensive articles describing the problems and their enormous scale, for anyone who honestly wants to know.

A lot of people don't honestly want to know, unfortunately. Loads of people just want to pick a side and spit from it.

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