The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

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Mutants and Masses

MovieBob goes into detail about the difference between artists and fans.

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I'm really waiting for some of these outraged fans to go Misery on Casey Hudson. It seems a lot like the route we're headed down.

Kidnapping to change the ending of your favorite series. Yep. Boy, the main antagonist in that book/movie was so well reasoned and easy to relate to, right?

So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.

Bad move Bob, very, very, very, very bad move.

It's apparent that you really haven't researched into the whole Mass Effect 3 debacle, so be prepared to hear that the Mass Effect series is a special case, BioWare didn't deliver on ANY of their promises, and they pretty much slapped their own IP in the face in the last 5 minutes of their game.

Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

EDIT: Before you go crying about how you're sick of people complaining, I think I should point you to THIS.

Thank you, Bob.

I will be passing this around as well as Devin's article now. People are just pissing me off with all of the complaints about the Turtles movie. The people I've seen up in arms haven't even cared or thought about TMNT since they were five either.

It's not ruining your childhood if you forgot about it.

I think the disconnect between the comics and the 90's tv show is one of the reasons the TMNT have a hard time taking off. IMHO the comics have aged better than the 90's cartoon has, and most modern incarnations of the turtles are based off the comics. Unfortunately this means people who are trying to recapture their feelings about the original show are disappointed.

I think Bob's comment about the 2003 TV show is an example of this. I watched a lot of both shows and I think that the first couple of seasons of the 2003 series were better than the 90's series. But then again I'm a big fan of the comic books too. If you went to the 2003 series looking for a modern echo of the earlier cartoon you would be let down.

Thank you. I don't care about the turtles in the slightest, but thank you for the remarks regarding Mass Effect. I have gotten so sick of all the moaning. I haven't played Mass Effect 3 yet because 1: My Xbox is broken and I need to fix it in order to import my save files and 2: I'm waiting for the game to get cheaper so I spend less overall on the game and DLCs.

But all the whining and complaining has been so aggravating to me. I even accidentally ran across a spoiler the other day that nearly brought me to tears in frustration. I happen to feel that the Mass Effect games are the best RPGs I've ever played. Are they perfect? No. But they are the best I've played because of how well they facilitate roleplaying and making me care about the characters I interact with.

I won't go into spoilers about the previous games (because even though they've been out for a while, I will show some basic courtesy to even the smallest percentage of people who haven't played them yet and are curious), but I made decisions in roleplaying during those games that I deeply regret. Those decisions will have consequences in Mass Effect 3, and that saddens me. But at the same time, I'm grateful that Bioware made the game so that could happen.

Ultimately, I don't give a flying feather about the ending because I know I'm going to enjoy the game itself. As they say, it's not the destination, it's the journey.

TL;DR: Dear Internet, shut up and get over it.

370999:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.

Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.

Still wish Michael Bay wasn't allowed to make films but that's not going to happen sadly.

Everything else I agree with. Creators have to be free to do their thing freely and also remain open to both accept and ignore criticism as they see fit. Anything else is a pseudo form of censorship.

MovieBob:
Mutants and Masses

MovieBob goes into detail about the difference between artists and fans.

Watch Video

In the interest of fairness, while the vast majority of what you have to say here is completely accurate, I feel I must mention that the FTC suit is not fans bitching about a shitty ending. It's fans bitching about false advertising. Whether or not that claim holds any water remains to be seen, I'm sure the legal system will be able to work it out, but from everything I've seen it certainly appears to be a valid complaint.

Boy, this dude's whining through a MEGAPHONE today.

Bob! Please stop being such as arsehat! I generally agree with you, Retake Mass Effect is silly, but stop having such a bitch whinefest over it. If it bothers you so much just ignore it, nobody is making you sit down and read the threads or the tweets or look up the latest picture on deviant art! Just do as I do and ignore it, it real is that simple. Instead you seem to relish in showing your moral superiority and proclaim to the world that everybody else are such children and your the only adult who can show them the way to nerdvana. I don't know maybe your trying to copy Jim Sterling but you don't have the same self mocking that he does and you just come of as arrogant.

Mother of god.

Bob, do some research on these damned things.

1) The turtles are New Yorkers. Born and raised in New York. If they're going to be Aliens born in New York, then why bother making them aliens? And, it has been confirmed that they are meant to be aliens. Now, here's the name of the franchise: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Mutant and Turtles, two things WRONG with the title if the Turtles are aliens. And what about Splinter? How does he fit in? Just, so many things utterly wrong with that one statement, that fans are in their right to bitch and moan about it. Which brings me to

2) The Mass Effect 3 ending was NOT what was promised to the fans. BioWare promised a fulfilling, questions answering, plot thread ending EPIC which turned out to be a badly written mess. Again, the consumers are in their rights. This time, because they were bloody LIED to.

I've written about this somewhat myself, and rather than be crass and just post a link or two, I'll condense my thoughts as well as I can for you to peruse. I'm honestly shocked I have to post this again, but it seems that certain people are too busy shouting so the cheap seats can hear instead of listening to how they're sounding or what they're saying. And I'm not talking about fans.

Short version: Mr. Chipman, with all due respect on the matter of games and so-called artistic integrity, I disagree.

Stories have done the "what you choose doesn't matter" ending before, and it's been effective. Brazil and 12 Monkeys spring to mind. But those were films. These are video games. Moreover, the Mass Effect series are video games that emphasize player choice, tolerance, examinations of individuality and life itself. We are told, and invited to exemplify through gameplay, that the choices we make matter, that the direction lives take are important, and that tolerance and peace are not only possible, they are preferable to the alternatives even in our current, modern day lives. A world where different species can form friendships and even romances without any serious social implications and a man can talk about his husband in a very real and moving way is one that is definitely worth dying for.

But the endings of Mass Effect 3 are devoid of meaning. There's no sense of closure, no sense of gravity to our decisions. In the end, we're given to understand that everything we've done doesn't matter. To make everything in all three games come down to a single choice could work, if the aftermath of that choice also reflects choices we've made since the beginning. As it stands, those decisions carry no weight. It's one thing to botch the ending of a video game. It's another to ruin its replay value as a result, and another still to also destroy the replay value of the games that came before it. As a writer and a gamer, I simply cannot grok this decision.

I'm glad you say we're allowed to be upset about this, but wait: we're not allowed to feel we have a say in the process? You propose we are mere consumers and not participants? I disagree with this more than anything else you said. The Internet's instant communication and dissemination of information is accelerating the process as we, as gamers, find and refine our voices. While we'll never be able to excise every single idiot or douchebag from the community, we can minimize their impact while maximizing what matters: our investment in our entertainment. We are not mere consumers - we are patrons, and video games are the art for which we pay.

Changing the ending of a novel or film because fans didn't like it is one thing. Most directors and authors would cite artistic integrity in keeping their tales as they are. There are those who feel game developers should maintain the same standards. That doesn't seem right to me, though. Gaming is so different from every other art form, so involving of the end user of the content, that sooner or later a different set of standards should be observed. You say that drawing a line between developers and gamers will make people take games more seriously as art; I say such behavior holds the art form back. Yes, our criticisms and opinions should be as constructive as possible in order to be heeded, but consider the possibilities if we can manage that feat. We can stop being seen as mere end-user consumers, and start participating actively in the perpetuation of this art form. To me, that's exciting and powerful.

I mean, we still have people using racist and homophobic language in the community, but hey, baby steps.

Huh...and I just recently saw his Game Overthinker episode of Mass Effect. Interesting to see the connections between ME3 and the new TMNT fan reactions.

I think he has the right idea on the fan reaction to Mass Effect 3. The only real creative control the fans have is on the choices they make...the RESULTS of those choices were still the pervue of the game writers. The fans have NO creative control over this.

Why would you file a complaint with the FTC Bob? You weren't mislead in any way, you knew you were getting a Micheal Bay film to begin with. The whole reason we got upset is because we DIDN'T GET A NICE THING. Or is fan outrage at the perceived mishandling of a property a right only reserved for eccentric English Detectives and Light Based Superheros?

If THEY'RE free to experiment then WE'RE free to tell them exactly how we feel about the result. Consequences Bob.

Baby Tea:

Frank_Sinatra_:
Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even bitch about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.

Uh if the promotions for the book DID say you were going to get different endings, then yes, it IS false advertising.

Frank_Sinatra_:
Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even bitch about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.

As a non-American who never watched TMNT or Transformers as a child, I really can't understand all the fuss about the movies. Who cares? If the turtles-alien story makes sense in the movie, fine by me.

DVS BSTrD:
Why would you file a complaint with the FTC Bob? You weren't mislead in any way, you knew you were getting a Micheal Bay film to begin with. The whole reason we got upset is because we DIDN'T GET A NICE THING. Or is fan outrage at the perceived mishandling of a property a right only reserved for eccentric English Detectives and Light Based Superheros?

Hes reffering to the ME3 fans, they're making FTC and BBB complaints over it.

I can't believe you are serious.

The amount of ignorance you display again and again is unsettling.

But, your show is still entertaining when I'm not at the receiving end of your bile, so I'll just keep watching.

This video was a huge contrast to the article where Bob complains about them changing Spider-Man's costume.
To each their own.

Baby Tea:

Frank_Sinatra_:
Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even bitch about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.

Too true, this has gone too far and it's making gamers out to be the moronic disphits society thinks they are. Whoop-dee-doo, an ending SUCKS, get over it. Spending dozens of hours and probably around $200+ of your income does not make this any more justifiable.

RaikuFA:

370999:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.

Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.

That is an extreme fringe and accompanies anything which is emotional. Bob is not a man to chide others for childish outbursts, remember the whole comparison between the Transformers movies and his dogs skeleton being dug out, covered in shit and views of it sold? I do.

Also he mentions the FTC without paying any attention to why that happened. That is not about the ending being bad, that is about Bioware outright lying in interviews. They said it wouldn't be an ABC affair and it was.

Baby Tea:

Frank_Sinatra_:
Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even bitch about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.

Ive gotta say, just today ive seen 3 major push backs against the ME controversy. Dan from Extra creditz post, Movie Bob, and now this. I must say, it seems people are getting tired of hearing so much over reaction and are coming out of the woodworks.

EDIT: Also, ZP posted a good article to.
Also, I notice for every single argument anyone makes, most of what is said is 'Oh, your missing the point'... even though every point is being addressed.

BlueInkAlchemist:
I've written about this somewhat myself, and rather than be crass and just post a link or two, I'll condense my thoughts as well as I can for you to peruse. I'm honestly shocked I have to post this again, but it seems that certain people are too busy shouting so the cheap seats can hear instead of listening to how they're sounding or what they're saying. And I'm not talking about fans.

Short version: Mr. Chipman, with all due respect on the matter of games and so-called artistic integrity, I disagree.

Stories have done the "what you choose doesn't matter" ending before, and it's been effective. Brazil and 12 Monkeys spring to mind. But those were films. These are video games. Moreover, the Mass Effect series are video games that emphasize player choice, tolerance, examinations of individuality and life itself. We are told, and invited to exemplify through gameplay, that the choices we make matter, that the direction lives take are important, and that tolerance and peace are not only possible, they are preferable to the alternatives even in our current, modern day lives. A world where different species can form friendships and even romances without any serious social implications and a man can talk about his husband in a very real and moving way is one that is definitely worth dying for.

But the endings of Mass Effect 3 are devoid of meaning. There's no sense of closure, no sense of gravity to our decisions. In the end, we're given to understand that everything we've done doesn't matter. To make everything in all three games come down to a single choice could work, if the aftermath of that choice also reflects choices we've made since the beginning. As it stands, those decisions carry no weight. It's one thing to botch the ending of a video game. It's another to ruin its replay value as a result, and another still to also destroy the replay value of the games that came before it. As a writer and a gamer, I simply cannot grok this decision.

I'm glad you say we're allowed to be upset about this, but wait: we're not allowed to feel we have a say in the process? You propose we are mere consumers and not participants? I disagree with this more than anything else you said. The Internet's instant communication and dissemination of information is accelerating the process as we, as gamers, find and refine our voices. While we'll never be able to excise every single idiot or douchebag from the community, we can minimize their impact while maximizing what matters: our investment in our entertainment. We are not mere consumers - we are patrons, and video games are the art for which we pay.

Changing the ending of a novel or film because fans didn't like it is one thing. Most directors and authors would cite artistic integrity in keeping their tales as they are. There are those who feel game developers should maintain the same standards. That doesn't seem right to me, though. Gaming is so different from every other art form, so involving of the end user of the content, that sooner or later a different set of standards should be observed. You say that drawing a line between developers and gamers will make people take games more seriously as art; I say such behavior holds the art form back. Yes, our criticisms and opinions should be as constructive as possible in order to be heeded, but consider the possibilities if we can manage that feat. We can stop being seen as mere end-user consumers, and start participating actively in the perpetuation of this art form. To me, that's exciting and powerful.

I mean, we still have people using racist and homophobic language in the community, but hey, baby steps.

Pretty much this. MovieBob just doesn't get it. While I don't agree that we should burn down the Bioware HQ, I do believe that we should take a stance against poor quality. Especially poor quality of the level of the ME 3 ending.

Games are not movies, Bob. And they don't adhere to the same art-rules as movies.

I sort of get where Bob is coming from in his argument; even though it seems kind of hypocritical that he chose to address who he thinks as 'entitled whiners', by getting on the internet and whining about it.

An artistic vision should not be made to fit some generic idea of what the public wants. If it is then it's not really art.

But to say that gamers have no right to demand changes to something they feel invested in is just patently ridiculous.
Every other artistic medium has to endure criticism when the audience does not approve of it's content. Often, this criticism will include demands for changes.
That doesn't mean the demands should necessarily be acted upon, and Bioware is perfectly entitled to simply ignore it all.

I also disagree with Bobs 'Buy a ticket and take your chances' philosophy. There is an article I've read recently that articulates my opinion on the issue far better than I ever could.

I recommend people interested in the topic of 'gamer entitlement' take a look:

http://www.3pipe.net/2012/03/art-and-patronage-in-21st-century-new.html

Oh no Bob is kicking the hornets nest again lol... Anyways really I'm all for taking chances but if your chances don't translate coherently to the mass, then you can expect backlash. I'm sorry but that ending was a mess. Now I'm not gonna rage on the interweb and rally troops to change the ending(thats what fanboys are for) but I'm gonna put more though into buying more bioware games. And hey if Bioware decides to add on to the ending eventually more power to them.

Well personally im just tired hearing about Mass Effect 3, although we have gone from 14 threads a day to 7 threads a day to 2 threads a day. It will stop soon enough. Then start up again when the DLC hits.

370999:

RaikuFA:

370999:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.

Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.

That is an extreme fringe and accompanies anything which is emotional. Bob is not a man to chide others for childish outbursts, remember the whole comparison between the Transformers movies and his dogs skeleton being dug out, covered in shit and views of it sold? I do.

Also he mentions the FTC without paying any attention to why that happened. That is not about the ending being bad, that is about Bioware outright lying in interviews. They said it wouldn't be an ABC affair and it was.

Would you be able to give an example of how something that has been coded (read: prewritten) can not be an ABC affair?

Geez. Haven't seen this much of an outcry over fictional media since... Lost?

Just so you know:
Bioware and EA don't owe you a goddamn thing. They came out with a game and you bought it, played it, finished it, and either walked away from it or started crying all over my internet.

Internet quotes and press releases from anyone working on the Mass Effect series are not legally binding.

You should have rented it and saved yourself $55.

Plus you're detracting from real issues in modern entertainment, such as DRM control, DLC flooding, and mandatory Origin signups.

First time I'm in full agreement with Bob.

If you crave originality and progress in your games - the evolution the media - then you're going to have to accept a whole lot of experimentation; Which more often than not leads to failure. Though of course material created by people such as Bay, who've time and again proven patently incapable of creating anything that wasn't the cinematic equivalent to Frankensteins Monster, and apparently have no ambition of ever doing better, can be ignored and allowed to fade away.

As for the whole ME3 ending thingie, unless there's some promise involved that's both extremely specific in what objective features it'd contain (...like, "it'll have raccoons fighting each other over a volcano"-level specific), and extremely important for the average person's decision in buying it, then the whole consumer complaint deal is just silly. You can't complain about subjective stuff.

What people need to get is that he isn't saying you don't have the right to complain. You can complain all you want. But DEMANDING that you get a better ending because it was OWED to you is just plain silly, and the unbelievable extremes the "Retake" movement have gone to to get what they are "owed" are just downright pathetic.

Now becuase this is the internet, and because the "Retake" movement tends to make strawmen of people who disagree with them, I'll spell this out in big letters for them.

Nobody is saying you need to like the ending.

Nobody is saying you can't complain.

But there's a line that can be crossed

And the "Retake" movement crossed it veeeeery quickly.

I find it amusing that after ragging on Transformers and god knows how many other geek things that were done wrong, Bob defends Bioware when they step wrong. Seems a little ironic/hypocritical. When things are done horribly, are not the fans entitled to complain, or should they just take the blow quietly and be happy for some perverse reason?

370999:

RaikuFA:

370999:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.

Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.

That is an extreme fringe and accompanies anything which is emotional. Bob is not a man to chide others for childish outbursts, remember the whole comparison between the Transformers movies and his dogs skeleton being dug out, covered in shit and views of it sold? I do.

Also he mentions the FTC without paying any attention to why that happened. That is not about the ending being bad, that is about Bioware outright lying in interviews. They said it wouldn't be an ABC affair and it was.

OK? And? I was promised a demo of MML3 and the sales of said demo would determine if it was gonna be cancelled or not. It got canceled before the demo was released and I can't make a BBB complaint over it cause it will be thrown out, just like your ME3 complaints.

Jaebird:
Geez. Haven't seen this much of an outcry over fictional media since... Lost?

And it wasn't even this bad.

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