The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

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Karnesdorff:

Gxas:

Would you be able to give an example of how something that has been coded (read: prewritten) can not be an ABC affair?

Hmm, Something like the Fallout games. The main ending is usually one of a few choices, but the epilogue afterwards lets you know what happened to the people you met and places you visited; the ending may be primarily ABC, but the epilogue makes it feel more like you got a different end from other people who played since a lot of people wouldn't quite get quite the same end as their friends who play the same game (a different choice here, a dead NPC there...), so the Wasteland ends up feeling like 'yours' more. Instead of being A, B or C, it looks more like (A,d,f,g,i,m,o) or (C,e,f,h,i,j,p), each of those choices might have been binary, but all together they make it look more 'fluid'.

It isn't about making computer games that can have a billion endings, for every single player choice, games are inherently linear because they can't predict everything that I can do in a game, but its about making the player feel like their actions weren't ABC. ME3, where Starchild Hitler turns up and forces you to take one of three very similar options without any means to disagree, then you get a recoloured cutscene followed by another cutscene that makes you say 'WTF?' fails in that challenge.

People don't like being forced to see the the code strings that their avatars dance on due to bad writing, it breaks immersion.

K.

So are we complaining about some ending cutscene then?

Like I said above, I have no idea what happens, as I've not even finished the first game. But, if it's an epilogue cutscene that people are complaining about, then this is even more ridiculous to me than it was before.

Bob, you got a little offtrack at the end; now I think this whole video was just an introduction into a rant about the retake movement.

IceStar100:
Aw this song and dance again.

The way I see it. They will try and sell DLC and tie in to Mass Effect. So yes fans do have a say otherwise their stuff stops selling. Honest since Dragon Age 2 how many comic and book have been put out about that world.

So yeah they have all right to say our work deal with it. We have all right to say our money deal with it. Then if Bioware goes belly up because it lost all the good will of its fans. Are we not going to hear about how it was our fault for not putting money into a company we no longer believe in?

TL:DR
They have all right to their work. They also have all right to go bankrupt.

This is exactly it. We took that risk, and a lot of us feel burned by it. So much so that we won't buy things anymore. That's completely fair.

You see kids, multi-millionaires and media conglomerates can revise things any way they want. They can do test screenings and focus-testings, they can cut and edit and reboot, but that's as close as you will ever get to actually influencing how the things you care about turn out: as proxy for a money-generating process.

You can care, but don't care too much. One, you're likely to get your feelings hurt, and why? So holier-than-thou people can cast disdain on you for giving a shit? Don't be ridiculous. And two, you might harm the ability of artists- or as we call them these days, intellectual property creators- to take risks which are the soul of great art. Or at least, the kindling for the next generation of "re-envisionings" when they sell off their rights to said multi-millionares and media conglomerates so they don't have to warm their houses with fires from big piles of rejected scripts. (Remember, don't care too much!)

What is important to this process- really, really important- is that you give up your money. And then, shut up. Because you are irrelevant to the process beyond your ability to be a revenue stream. The big boys have been trying to tell you this for years, but only recently have they managed to get critics to argue with a straight face that your anger at losing multiple hours of your life towards a result that insults everything you came to care about in those hours is something called "entitlement".

Remember: protect artistic integrity! Buy nine-figure-development-cost-products, and then shut up about them. Thank you.

--

To this, let me add one small note.

I am, myself, deeply ambivalent about the question of re-writing an ending to address an audience's unhappiness about said ending.

But I really don't think it's my place to demean the emotional commitment of people who do feel that way, or to suggest that they're about to destroy the product, or the medium, or... gasp... art itself with this terrible, terrible precedent.

I am deeply skeptical about any argument that can't stand on its own without foretelling crushing doom if its warning isn't heeded. I could take the arguers much more seriously if they would just get down from the pulpit and walk among the hoi polloi, rather than taking up the sword as the defenders of Great Art (ever increasingly (tm).)

Doesn't it seem a little strange that this much anger and fear should be summoned at the idea that creators might listen to their audience?

I just wish Bob would STFU about Mass Effect. Every time he brings it up, he stirs up a shitstorm and he ends up just crapping on his own videos.

Shut up about it if you want it to go away. Giving it this kind of attention is just throwing gas on the fire.

Personally I agree with Bob. The moaning and whining is just silly and is to much. You want to know how you can show Bioware you are disappointed? Don't buy their next game. It's that simple. You don't need to nerd rage all over the place and become noisy whiny brats. Yes 60 bucks and 30+ hours is an investment, but it is an investment you made with your own money/time and did so willingly. You got burned, but you entered into the social contract, you signed on the dotted line. They promised you a game, you got a game. They did what they thought was best, or were forced into doing. They may have speculated that you would love it but they never promised that it would fulfill all your hopes and dreams about the series.

As for the Ninja Turtles... it's Michael Bay. He takes things and makes them bad, no one should find this surprising.

The way that retake Mass Effect was presented to me was that it was a group of fans who wanted to show Bioware that they would be willing to spend money in order to support DLC that changed the ending of the game to a less objectionable state, while at the same time recognising that such action didn't guarentee it would happen and the child's play donations being thrown in as a way to create something good out of the controversy.

I think the effort was hampered by two things, the use of the word "Retake" in the name, and by the reports that people wanted their money back, as if they genuinely expected a direct, concrete result from their donation.

"echo chamber of mutual butt-hurt outrage"
I wonder, if the internet only displayed opinions
you disagreed with, would there be less-angry people
or just less angry-people.

templar1138a:
Thank you. I don't care about the turtles in the slightest, but thank you for the remarks regarding Mass Effect. I have gotten so sick of all the moaning. I haven't played Mass Effect 3 yet because 1: My Xbox is broken and I need to fix it in order to import my save files and 2: I'm waiting for the game to get cheaper so I spend less overall on the game and DLCs.

But all the whining and complaining has been so aggravating to me. I even accidentally ran across a spoiler the other day that nearly brought me to tears in frustration. I happen to feel that the Mass Effect games are the best RPGs I've ever played. Are they perfect? No. But they are the best I've played because of how well they facilitate roleplaying and making me care about the characters I interact with.

I won't go into spoilers about the previous games (because even though they've been out for a while, I will show some basic courtesy to even the smallest percentage of people who haven't played them yet and are curious), but I made decisions in roleplaying during those games that I deeply regret. Those decisions will have consequences in Mass Effect 3, and that saddens me. But at the same time, I'm grateful that Bioware made the game so that could happen.

Ultimately, I don't give a flying feather about the ending because I know I'm going to enjoy the game itself. As they say, it's not the destination, it's the journey.

TL;DR: Dear Internet, shut up and get over it.

Oh yeah. You have fun with that.

I thought I was going to be like that as well but you wait until you actually see the ending after you've gone through the rest of the game and then get back to me on that.

OT: Bob, I respect your opinion on the Turtles because from that aspect, it's possible that Bay misspoke. Thank God he is not directing it but him having anything to do with it at all is a bit frightening.

However, do not bring up the ME3 ending. You don't know how it's different, how many promises were broken and (if it's true) how little involvement the ACTUAL writers got in it!

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/5695/article/mass-effect-3-writer-allegedly-slams-controversial-ending/

If this is true then this really defeats your argument. There is an amount of artistic license that creators should have over their games but when you promise one thing and then totally go against it and say that your fans are part of the creative process, that's too far.

I loved ME3 until the complete mind-fuck of an ending happened. Now, it's a great game but with a huge flaw of completely stripping away all of my previous decisions away from an ending like that, missing huge pieces of explanation and variation in a game that has always shined in choice and consequence whilst presenting you with the knowledge you need to make your decisions the way you want to.

Ralen-Sharr:
I just wish Bob would STFU about Mass Effect. Every time he brings it up, he stirs up a shitstorm and he ends up just crapping on his own videos.

Shut up about it if you want it to go away. Giving it this kind of attention is just throwing gas on the fire.

Like I said earlier, it must get him a lot of hits.

Gxas:

Ahh, see, I've not finished the first game, so I have no idea what is going on with the third in terms of ending or changes based on decisions. I also never, ever pay attention to interviews or anything like that, so I have no leg there. It just seems that, to me, people were expecting a butterfly effect-type ending in the sense that not doing a side-mission - let's say, for my sake, mining all of the gas nodes in the first game - would have a huge impact on the game.

From an outside viewpoint, as I see myself, the whole complaint with everything is utterly juvenile and ridiculous.

Especially the FTC/BBB complaint. Ads lie all the time, if you really look into them. Blatantly. Look at the AXE marketing. I wash with that shit every day (I really do like the smell of it) and I've never, ever had a girl all over me like the bottle/packaging/commercials/magazine ads say I will. If I were to complain, the FTC/BBB would just laugh and laugh and laugh.

Well you see the way ME is presented you get to make choices which appear to have major impact on the world. Do you give this base of advanced technology into the hands of a terrorist who wants to use it for humanities benefit, do you help cure a disease that sterilizes a species, do you save the last remaining individual of another species that previously waged a huge galactic war, etc. This doesn't really affect the final battle, only doing so in the form of a numerical score that determines wherever you get either the choice of option C, option C and B or, the best case, option A B and C. And all of the options are baffling and seem (at least to me) to actually be against the theme of game.

Now being honest with you I'm not sure if they should change the ending. I tend to think that Bioware should, the current ending is awful and they can do such much better but I don't know. It's just I hate Bob completely misrepresenting one side of the argument. He is ignorant on this subject and then him getting paid to talk about it taste sour, especially when he does it in such a dogmatic fashion. Remember how he had a defensive tone in his transformers 3 review where he immediately started by vetoing accusations of fanboy bias? He doing the same now

I think the thing with the endings, was again, people were worried that we could end up in the present scenario and Bioware said we wouldn't. And while it would of been very difficult I tend to believe they could of presented an ending which did the series justice. Again not everybody would be happy with it but certainly much more then we have now. So unlike say Lynx, Bioware was presenting something which could actually happen, and then it didn't happen.

Ive said this before but im going to resay it. Have you actually seen the ending's of ME 3?

Bob is not saying the Mass Effect ending was good or that the fans are wrong in being upset. What he is saying is that there is a line between criticizing a property and being a whiny little brat throwing a temper tantrum and fans tend to cross that line way too easily.

anyone remember Bob and his Green Lantern review? Bob was livid when it came to that movie. He hated everything about that movie, and told people not to touch the movie. But there is one thing he did not claim: ownership over the property and for them to "fix" it. He was mad, vented and lamented the movie, but he did not cross the line into throwing a tantrum to get the movie he "wanted"

Draech:

th3dark3rsh33p:

Draech:

You have creative rights over some1 else product or not?
Pick one.

If not then you get to critique the ending, not change it.

If you have you get to change it. How can you misunderstand that?

I don't think we're saying we have the right to force them to change it. Just that we want them to with our criticism. There's a difference.

So you dont have the right to force them.... you just want the right to do so.....

The whole "Retake Mass Effect" idea never happened right?

I mean for someone to go "Retake mass effect" he must believe it was his and it was taken from him. Or am I missing something?

No... lol... I'm not saying I can force them, I'm saying I will not buy more of their products unless they do change the ending. They have the right to make a shitty ending and keep it that way, just like they have the right to go bankrupt if people don't like it.

I can voice my opinion and say I think you should fix it and if they do I'll be there to support them in it. That's what I'm saying and I didn't really like the retake mass effect movement and I don't agree with the dumb false advirtising claim. To be entirely honest I don't think the majority of the disgruntled fans do. Just easier for you to pin us all in that group you can smugly look down on though doesn it?

Indeed, this is why we can't have nice things.

Okay, so BioWare dropped the ball. We're still alive, aren't we? Oh, and Bay directing a TMNT movie? I'm likely to think it sucks and to be at least somewhat disappointed, but will it be the worst outrage ever faced by fandom? Eh, no. We'll find another reason to rage and froth two weeks later.

At this point, I'm honestly tired of hearing the same arguments from both sides of the story. One side claims false advertising and borderline spiteful decisions from BioWare's part, the other tries to make it clear that nobody in BW's screenwriting department owes us anything.

Nobody can expect to win this debate, because it's turned into a matter of how you perceive the game developer as a whole. Either they're spiteful, lying sacks of shit who ruined YOUR fun for no discernible reason, or they're human and fallible entities that haven't owed anything to their fans in any shape or form. Insert arguments regarding what "authorial control" means for the fans or players in equal proportions for both sides, and you've got a pretty good picture of what the current debacle looks like.

I'm liable to be accused of parroting the same old stuff over and over or of resorting to ad hominem tactics, but I maintain that a good few amongst ourselves should do well to step back, take a couple weeks to perform a bit of introspection, and figure out how they're acting like mature adults. I know, it's plainly idealistic of me to expect that, but I think a few would come to unpleasant realizations.

Mass Effect 3's endings sucked. Am I dead because of it? Is anyone dead because of it? Has Western culture collapsed under the weight of the sheer disappointment? Were all other creative mediums rendered null and void? No.

If anything, all we've managed to do is set back our cause a couple years. I've received a few attempts at refutation for landing this argument before, but I'll maintain that this is painting the whole of gamers out to be immature and entitled.

Thank you Bob, for essentially realizing this. Not that my post or your video will ever matter to the "Retake Mass Effect" crowd, because the notions of "promised" content and failed expectations will continue to act as their safety net.

th3dark3rsh33p:

Draech:

th3dark3rsh33p:

I don't think we're saying we have the right to force them to change it. Just that we want them to with our criticism. There's a difference.

So you dont have the right to force them.... you just want the right to do so.....

The whole "Retake Mass Effect" idea never happened right?

I mean for someone to go "Retake mass effect" he must believe it was his and it was taken from him. Or am I missing something?

No... lol... I'm not saying I can force them, I'm saying I will not buy more of their products unless they do change the ending. They have the right to make a shitty ending and keep it that way, just like they have the right to go bankrupt if people don't like it.

I can voice my opinion and say I think you should fix it and if they do I'll be there to support them in it. That's what I'm saying and I didn't really like the retake mass effect movement and I don't agree with the dumb false advirtising claim. To be entirely honest I don't think the majority of the disgruntled fans do. Just easier for you to pin us all in that group you can smugly look down on though doesn it?

I never said that you could.... I said that you wanted to force them...

"I'm not going to go on about the whole Mass Effect thing"

*Proceeds to smugly jack off in the audience's face*

I already watched his game overthinker, so I'm just gonna copypaste my response to that:

"I don't even know what the ending is and I've never finished a mass effect game"

Oh wow, why are we getting upset over what he says again?

Edit: Strawman arguments everywhere. Thinks "it's the storyteller's story" makes rocks fall everyone dies a not shitty ending. Can't differentiate between an ending tailor made for everyone and one that is simply consistent with the rest of the game in both gameplay and lore. Yea he doesn't know what he's talking about.

do we have the right to demand a rework of a ending?
no.
do we have to rights to complain on a ending?
yes.

although i can really understand people who are mad that actions in previous games have not a effect what so ever to the actual end of the third game, even though that was promised. we still can't demand that bioware remakes a ending of something they created. the only thing we can do is saying what we think from it, give criticism and hope that they listen. and if that doesn't work, we should buying their games.

Completly missing the point of the fan rage against Bioware.
The only thing artsy about Bioware these days are how the can make gigantic plot holes and retcon things without most people caring.

370999:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.

What didn't he get? The two had an over-lapping, he picked up with it and ran with it. You seem bothered because you were probably a person who participated in the retake ME event, and don't want to admit that someone just called you out.

And what mistake did he make about the retake ME movement? That it was a charity movement that used the anger of ME fans as leverage to gain funds for Childs Play? Not an integral part of his argument. His argument was based on the reaction, not how that reaction was funneled into something good. While it does undermine his argument of "we need to be fans and adults" a tad bit, its still an overly immature reaction to have in the first place. If you didn't like the ending, you express it, and either hope the game developer pulls a Fallout 3 and retcons the original ending with a DLC, or you use your purchasing power to say "I will not support this franchises future endeavors", and abstain from purchasing DLC or other Mass Effect games/appearal.

Movies and Video Games are very different, but share some very clear elements, and he's right. Video Games real difference is not THE MESSAGE, but how THE MESSAGE is delivered, and what emotions we feel along the way.

Fans QQing about Mass Effects Ending and the tidbits of Prothean backstory that make no impact over the game but require a $10 purchase is just getting old. And its the same with people who QQ about movies. I'm very suprised he had nothing to say about The Hunger Games, which according to some people was akin to genocide.

You spent your money: you are not entitled to demanding a different ending, or that the origin story be fixed, or that "xyz is bad they should do a reboot". You may certainly critique the work, but demanding a new ending post launch? Really?

And yeah, the people who are whining about the Turtles movie, despite the fact that they havent seen it yet. They fall is the same boat. Its pathetic, its immature. Get on with your live. If its bad, don't partake in it. You do know you have options, right? Money talks.

Baby Tea:

Frank_Sinatra_:
Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even bitch about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.

I've not finished ME3 yet, but obviously by visiting any internet page I've come across headlines of rage from fans at the ending. I don't know what the ending is, I'll hopefully find out when I finish it.

Your argument is the same as my own though. I even thought of the adventure book comparison too, you pick your own path of A B and C but you're always going to end up at D, maybe E and F if the writer could get it in, but overall your experience of going through the book (or mass effect) is different than someone else who owns it.

Nice to see some people still understand basic concepts.

Gxas:
So are we complaining about some ending cutscene then?

Like I said above, I have no idea what happens, as I've not even finished the first game. But, if it's an epilogue cutscene that people are complaining about, then this is even more ridiculous to me than it was before.

More that the ending makes no sense and doesn't really give any closure. It's more "Ooooo look at the pretty colours!" than showing any actual consequences of your actions. I think the decisions are tough in themselves (and I would have liked the option to refuse all the other three) but afterwards, nothing really different happens which is really sad.

Wow, Bob entirely misses the point with the whole ME3 ending thing. I don't think I've ever completely disagreed with him before. It truly is shocking that he's taken a stance on such a major issue while being, at least in part, ignorant about it.

He seems to suggest that people filed the FTC complaint (a move I don't agree with but see the justification for) because they didn't like the ending rather than their actual reasoning: Bioware LIED in their marketing. The FTC is responsible for punishing false advertising and Bioware CLEARLY had false advertising. If a food product claims to be calorie-free in their advertising and then is found to be full of calories, nobody would bat an eye at an FTC complaint. Because we're gamers complaining about a game, however, we're just entitled children.

Yes the ending sucked (probably the worst I've ever played), but the game as a whole was brilliant. At least for me, the outrage comes for the way that Bioware was willing to tell us whatever we wanted to hear prior to release only to renege on every promise and expect it all just to blow over because because people like Bob here say "it's art" or "you're just a consumer" so you have no right to complain. And if this was all designed as part of some plan to sell the "real" ending as DLC, as rumored, that's not just false advertising, that's fraud.

At least we have Shamus Young to rely on...

I felt the need to create an account to comment on this. As an artist myself I'm becoming increasingly disturbed how much the 'artistic integrity' argument is being used and seen as valid with regards to Mass Effect 3's ending. The problem is that Bioware promised many things when it came to the series' ending and those promises were broken or directly contradicted, the idea that a corporation, let alone an artist, can so blatantly falsely advertise a product and then when this false advertising is called out people will defend it with claims of artistic integrity is simply worrying, artists do not exist in a vacuum, we are not Olympians occasionally throwing down inspiration to the unwashed masses.

The problem with Mass Effect 3's ending is that it is not a matter of opinion over which the fans are upset, its that the ending is objectively flawed. Even if you like the way the ending works from a conceptual point of view, that doesn't excuse the massive plot holes, logical flaws and tonal inconsistencies of the ending. It is not only self contradictory in innumerable ways but it also invalidates everything that happened in the previous two games and relies on logic so hideously circular and flawed that even those not 'invested' in the series can see it, all you need to do in one case is to look at a moment a few minuets prior to contradict what has to be accepted without question for the ending to work. These are not 'nerdy' 'length of a star destroyer' plot holes, these are massive inconsistencies that in any other medium would be seen as a breech by the creators of their own artistic integrity.

The fact of the matter is that when producing commissioned work in which an artist has promised a theme or consistent tone, deviating from that is the worst possible thing that artist could do, as they have broken their own artistic integrity by diverting from the tone or theme of the piece. In that case it is well within the rights of the commissioner to ask for his/her money back or to demand the piece be reworked, any artist who takes offense to this or sees this as an attack on their artistic integrity is going to be without a living. I feel that allot of this comes more from the video game communities' terrible fear of games being seen as anything other than perfect works of art, the moment that is called into doubt, however reasonably, people feel as if the artistic foundations of gaming are being attacked and will defend them irrationally at all costs. The adding to or changing of an ending is far from without precedent after all, just look at Fallout 3 with Broken steel, or Alan Wake with the Signal and the Lighthouse, or even Arthur Conan Doyle and the original Sherlock Holmes.

At least I know now that if ever someone reasonably objects to a piece of work they have commissioned from me the gaming media will be more than willing to rush to my defense, without looking at the commissioners arguments at all, if I say he is threatening my precious artistic integrity.

Draech:

I mean for someone to go "Retake mass effect" he must believe it was his and it was taken from him. Or am I missing something?

You're missing the point(as so many people are) that the word "retake" really shouldn't be taken so literally. It's poking fun at the "Retake Earth/Take Back Earth" ME3 marketing campaign, that's all.

370999:

Gxas:

Ahh, see, I've not finished the first game, so I have no idea what is going on with the third in terms of ending or changes based on decisions. I also never, ever pay attention to interviews or anything like that, so I have no leg there. It just seems that, to me, people were expecting a butterfly effect-type ending in the sense that not doing a side-mission - let's say, for my sake, mining all of the gas nodes in the first game - would have a huge impact on the game.

From an outside viewpoint, as I see myself, the whole complaint with everything is utterly juvenile and ridiculous.

Especially the FTC/BBB complaint. Ads lie all the time, if you really look into them. Blatantly. Look at the AXE marketing. I wash with that shit every day (I really do like the smell of it) and I've never, ever had a girl all over me like the bottle/packaging/commercials/magazine ads say I will. If I were to complain, the FTC/BBB would just laugh and laugh and laugh.

Well you see the way ME is presented you get to make choices which appear to have major impact on the world. Do you give this base of advanced technology into the hands of a terrorist who wants to use it for humanities benefit, do you help cure a disease that sterilizes a species, do you save the last remaining individual of another species that previously waged a huge galactic war, etc. This doesn't really affect the final battle, only doing so in the form of a numerical score that determines wherever you get either the choice of option C, option C and B or, the best case, option A B and C. And all of the options are baffling and seem (at least to me) to actually be against the theme of game.

Now being honest with you I'm not sure if they should change the ending. I tend to think that Bioware should, the current ending is awful and they can do such much better but I don't know. It's just I hate Bob completely misrepresenting one side of the argument. He is ignorant on this subject and then him getting paid to talk about it taste sour, especially when he does it in such a dogmatic fashion. Remember how he had a defensive tone in his transformers 3 review where he immediately started by vetoing accusations of fanboy bias? He doing the same now

I think the thing with the endings, was again, people were worried that we could end up in the present scenario and Bioware said we wouldn't. And while it would of been very difficult I tend to believe they could of presented an ending which did the series justice. Again not everybody would be happy with it but certainly much more then we have now. So unlike say Lynx, Bioware was presenting something which could actually happen, and then it didn't happen.

Ahhh, it is all much clearer to me now. Thank you.

Now, I still disagree with the rewritten ending since, you realize, I'm sure, that no matter what they do, what you have now will always, always be the true ending. Just like declaring the Star Wars prequels non-canon will mean nothing because everyone will always know that they were canon when they were created.

You can write whatever ending you want to, but the fact will always stand that this is the ending Bioware wrote and released. It will always be the true ending, and you will always know that deep down inside.

In my eyes, it would be better to write this one off as a bad ending and not buy anything Bioware ever again in protest, than to demand a change that will only make you slightly happy.

But, again, that is just my viewpoint on it.

Baby Tea:
I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even bitch about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

What's the difference between demanding for something and asking for it?

ytook:
I felt the need to create an account to comment on this. As an artist myself I'm becoming increasingly disturbed how much the 'artistic integrity' argument is being used and seen as valid with regards to Mass Effect 3's ending. The problem is that Bioware promised many things when it came to the series' ending and those promises were broken or directly contradicted, the idea that a corporation, let alone an artist, can so blatantly falsely advertise a product and then when this false advertising is called out people will defend it with claims of artistic integrity is simply worrying, artists do not exist in a vacuum, we are not Olympians occasionally throwing down inspiration to the unwashed masses.

The problem with Mass Effect 3's ending is that it is not a matter of opinion over which the fans are upset, its that the ending is objectively flawed. Even if you like the way the ending works from a conceptual point of view, that doesn't excuse the massive plot holes, logical flaws and tonal inconsistencies of the ending. It is not only self contradictory in innumerable ways but it also invalidates everything that happened in the previous two games and relies on logic so hideously circular and flawed that even those not 'invested' in the series can see it, all you need to do in one case is to look at a moment a few minuets prior to contradict what has to be accepted without question for the ending to work. These are not 'nerdy' 'length of a star destroyer' plot holes, these are massive inconsistencies that in any other medium would be seen as a breech by the creators of their own artistic integrity.

The fact of the matter is that when producing commissioned work in which an artist has promised a theme or consistent tone, deviating from that is the worst possible thing that artist could do, as they have broken their own artistic integrity by diverting from the tone or theme of the piece. In that case it is well within the rights of the commissioner to ask for his/her money back or to demand the piece be reworked, any artist who takes offense to this or sees this as an attack on their artistic integrity is going to be without a living. I feel that allot of this comes more from the video game communities' terrible fear of games being seen as anything other than perfect works of art, the moment that is called into doubt, however reasonably, people feel as if the artistic foundations of gaming are being attacked and will defend them irrationally at all costs. The adding to or changing of an ending is far from without precedent after all, just look at Fallout 3 with Broken steel, or Alan Wake with the Signal and the Lighthouse, or even Arthur Conan Doyle and the original Sherlock Holmes.

At least I know now that if ever someone reasonably objects to a piece of work they have commissioned from me the gaming media will be more than willing to rush to my defense, without looking at the commissioners arguments at all, if I say he is threatening my precious artistic integrity.

My problem isn't with Biowares product.

I can handle bad media. Bad music, bad film and bad books.

My problem is with the fans who arn't mature enough to handle their own favourite media.

I dislike a lot of songs. I dont insist that they should be undone.

Gxas:
Would you be able to give an example of how something that has been coded (read: prewritten) can not be an ABC affair?

At some level, every bit of "story" needs to be prewritten. This is true. On the other hand... would you say that the entire Mass Effect series can be boiled down to an ABC affair? No, of course not. Because, while all the possible choices exist in the games before you've even played them, there are so vastly many different combinations of choices that you can make that they simply can't be enumerated. This would be quite reasonable for fans to expect from an ending, as well.

Allow me to provide a more detailed illustration. Let's say that the ending were to provide two options for closure for all eight ME3 crew members, and would allow Shepard to end the game working with any of his crew members, on his own, or dead. That's 16 scenes for the crew members and 10 scenes for Shepard... certainly it's a lot of work, but not beyond Bioware by any means. Now, let's see how many different options that provides... 2^8*10 = 2,560 different endings. What if Bioware were to provide three separate ending options for each crew member? 3^8*10 = 65,610 different endings. Yes, technically you can still enumerate all 65,610 endings (AAAA, AAAB, ..., BAFA, BAFB, ..., DTBL) but absolutely nobody will. Hence: not an ABC affair. I hope this makes it a little bit more clear.

Eamar:

Draech:

I mean for someone to go "Retake mass effect" he must believe it was his and it was taken from him. Or am I missing something?

You're missing the point(as so many people are) that the word "retake" really shouldn't be taken so literally. It's poking fun at the "Retake Earth/Take Back Earth" ME3 marketing campaign, that's all.

So when the logic behind it was never used?
The idea that "It is ours" never happened?
I think that you need to take a good look at this particular part of the fan base, because I have come to a different conclusion than you.

Something tells me this video is relevant to this discussion:

Interpret it however you want.

Baby Tea:

Frank_Sinatra_:
Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even bitch about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.

Where were you in the three threads I've been stuck arguing in all day? This is the most true thing I've read about the controversy. Thank you

So Movie Bob says all the Mass effect fans are crying. What about his whole rant on Transformers and compare to to digging up his dogs skeleton. Now Movie Bob did not demand a new ending the the films nor did he write into the FCC or whatever. However he did seem as butt hurt as many of the fans he is now condemning. He never passes up a chance to take a swipe at the film, He needs to take his own advice once again and just accept it sucked he took the risk and move on.

As for the Mass effect ending, I think people were upset about many of the choices they made in the 150 hours of playing the 3 games were not really taken into account at the end of the game, and it almost did not matter what you did. Just to be clear I have not played the game yet either, I assume movie bob has not played any of them. However I think its more then someone died or someone lived in the ending where people are upset.

yes, the whole ME deal is kinda silly and dumb, still the ending sucks a lot and is kinda like like being given a single french fry to finish your gourmet meal

Surprise, lots oh ME3 whining again.

I'm also noticing a trend where they are using the fact that Bioware said that something was going to be one way during development and on release it turned out not to be.

O.M.G! First game ever to not release in the exact same state it was during production (for what ever reason)!!11one111!!!

teebeeohh:
...still the ending sucks a lot and is kinda like like being given a single french fry to finish your gourmet meal

But you still enjoyed your gourmet meal, right? Doesn't change the fact that you were feasting on gourmet standard grub :)
Sure ending with an exquisite desert of your liking would have been better, but just savour the main course, in that case.

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