The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

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bahumat42:

Faerillis:
Made it to 3:24, when it became clear that rather than actually looking into your mistakes, and apologizing for them, you simply doubled down on them.

Bob, I know you've received at least 2 pieces of fanmail that have explained how wrong you are about the reasons behind the "Retake Mass Effect" movement; and how erecting and attacking this Strawman is despicable. Glad to see you paid attention Bob...

Well, Bob, until recently your shows seemed fine but now you've made it utterly clear that you aren't worth a damn. Thanks for the videos that have entertained me for the last 2-1/2 years, because I for one won't be continuing watching your shows.
It's amazing that someone who has a show called "The Big Picture", could miss it so thoroughly.

wow this is exactly what the problem is

its the exact same thing, letting a minority part of a game, (or in this case bobs series) ruin the rest of it for you.

Just wow really.

Why is it when "artists" exercise their rights to ignore US they're just being artistic, when we exercise our right to tell them they're full of shit and ignore THEM we're entitled and whiny? This is how product to consumer works. You produce a product for the consumer and make them happy to take said product, whether that product is an actual item or an artistic work or a video you make for some website once a week. If consumers don't like that product for ANY reason they have every right to say "well, your full of shit bye" and take their time and money elsewhere. You of course are perfectly well within your rights to ignore these people and double down. How much this affects your business is dependent on the number of customers you fail to serve.

Draech:

Aisaku:
While Bob may be completely right on the legal side of things, he is definitely missing the big picture here.

1. Videogames are not movies, they're not books. DLC set the precedent for games to change and divert from their original form.

2. What I am arguing as a fan is that this is no the ending that the series deserve. And given the precedent of DLC, Bioware could very well go back and revisit it. I'm not asking for Bioware to do exactly as I want, but for them to meet their own standards.

3. Good or bad Bioware and ME3 is getting an unprecedented amount of publicity over this. This is something that's making them money, money they wouldn't have made otherwise if they had gone a more conventional way. Even Bob's benefiting from standing on this side of the debate. How can you divorce this from the decision to make the ending so inflaming?

If authorial intent is sacrosanct, what intent can we derive from the endings as a whole? Once you realize that all the permutations amount to killing off all the major players as well as the galaxy around them?. Is it not to leave the invested audience with a gaping wound?

In a movie this would be fine, after all it wasn't you who shaped the main character, all the characters and the world around them under the author's control. Even if you identify with the character,it's easier to let go. This is not the case with Mass Effect.

It may be unprecedented, but once you look at all the forces involved, what Bioware did is not unlike an author holding a beloved character hostage for publicity, larger monetary gains and getting the invested readership to pay ransom.

How can you not find that despicable I do not know.

Counterpoints
1: By the choice of the original creator only.

2: if you are only arguing that the ending is bad, then you got no problem with what Bob said. Critique wasn't a problem. An entitled sense of ownership over the story was the problem.

3: Deal with that as it is. That Bioware is being at an advantage because of possessive fanboys doesn't mean that the possessive fanboys arn't acting like spoiled children.

Side note:
That you shaped this char makes no difference. You were still only shaping him within the bounds and limits setup by the original artist. It is a misunderstanding I have seen dragged out as an argument again and again. Only real choice you have outside the artists creation is to Play or not to.

You do not get ownership over the chars or the setting just because you like them very much. You can call it holding a char hostage all you want, but it isn't a real person. It is their work.

I got that point from Bob: Fans do not get ownership in any way. It's crystal clear.

What I'm objecting to here is to the blatant manipulation of the fanbase. They measured the ramifications of the fan outcry and went ahead with it. Are authors responsible for their fanbase? Of course not.

Nevertheless, there's an unspoken contract between the author and the audience, the promises made by both sides of the line that when upheld lead to long fulfilling relationships.Bioware broke the author - audience contract and is laughing all the way to the bank. Not all of the outcrying fanbase may be aware of it, but this is something worth standing against.

Bob, for all the criticism I toss your way I respect you largely due to being an expert on the subject matter you address. In this case you really needed to do your research before sounding off.

For starters the "Mass Effect 3" suit/FTC complaint is not just because fans did not like the ending. It's because Bioware made promises involving the ending whcih went beyond general advertising hype, and then did not meet them, and actually conspired NOT to meet them. As insane as that sounds, it's what this end of things largely boils down to. Bioware released a lot of press statements saying that the ending would not be a simple "choice A B or C" affair and that the last game in the trilogy would wrap up any remaining questions. Bioware planned to release a $3 app which had interviews with the development team about the ending, where the interview team stated that they could have given the answers that were promised but intentionally decided not to, what's more rather than giving the ending the clear answer that was promised they decided to make the ending ambigious in order to inspire discussion of it. A lot of this is basically a fraud and false advertising complaint.

What's more, you have to understand that even on the ending front, this is not just people ranting about not liking the ending. It's about why the ending isn't disliked and what EA/Bioware was doing surrounding it. Originally "Mass Effect" was planned as a trilogy with one of the big selling points being that they had plotted it out from the very beginning, and that they weren't going to just be making it up as they went along. The promise that there were going to be clear answers and a satisfactory conclusion to all of the wierdness about giant space robots they were throwing out. What changed was EA/Bioware decided to go beyond this being a trilogy and turn it into a universal franchise, as such the information and answers people wanted and were promised because something they wanted to stretch out into other installments. That same $3 app mentioned above makes it clear that the writers were creating this current ending towards the end of the dev process for "Mass Effect 3" which means they pretty much decided to trash the original plans for the series and it's finale in the simple pursuit of money.

What's more, you, and pretty much everyone in the gaming media, even those that wind up agreeing with the fans to some extent, totally seem to miss the point that the ending of this game was monetized. It's amazing how the "whining fanboys" defense is used to try and drown out what is probably one of the most ridiculous things ever done with a video game. Not only is there an artsy/ambigious/do nothing ending that doesn't fit with the rest of the series, the ending is one where you can't see the entire thing unless you have acheived a certain level of War Assets. The thing is that the War Assets in the game are not sufficient to see everything in the ending. To get enough War Asset points to see everything you have to "backdoor" things by raising your galactic readiness rating which can only be done at the moment through the game's multiplayer mode which is monetized. Basically the multiplayer mode is designed to be fairly frustrating unless you put a lot of time into it, so you can unlock better character types and most importantly weapons, upgrades, and comsunables. The solution to that frustration coming in the form of an "I win" button where you can pay Bioware real money for packs of gear to make it less of a chore, especially if your interest is just the ending. As if that was not enough, EA/Bioware is in a position where they could also include more war assets in DLC to mitigate the multiplayer committment (but which requires you to pay for the DLC), not to mention their plans for tie in app games like "Mass Effect Infiltrator" which you can again buy to make it possible to see more of the ending.

In short Bob, not only is it a crap ending, it's a crap ending that EA/Bioware is trying to charge people more money to see, after they already bought the game. A point which also feeds back to the initial promises made with ME1 about this all being planned out to begin with. How could a monetized ending like this be planned, when it revolves around exploting technologies and money making avenues which were not really viable at the time ME1 was released?

How can you defend this crap artistically, when the whole issue is a matter of EA/Bioware having sold out their artistic integrity. Why we can't have nice things, is because we so far haven't drawn the line with crap like this, ME3 was the point where people said "enough is enough".

What the fans want Bob, is a proper ending that fits within the spirit of the game, like say the one they originally came up with. We also do not want EA/Bioware to come running after us with a bloody cash register to fully experience the ending of a game we already paid for. We also want the game industry to keep it's promises. If you say a game.. or any product... will do something, then decide to remove that functionality, it's perfectly reasonable for people to go after you for fraud. Like it or not Bioware *DID* make promises involving the ending, not in terms of "oh yeah it will be epic" like advertising hype, but flat out said it would not be a simple "choose A B or C" ending..... and yet that is what they did, they gave us a "choose A B or C" ending. How is that in any way okay?

I doubt you'll respond Bob, but really I'd like to hear what you think about all of this now that I'm laying it out. Most of what I'm saying here is also right here on The Escapist, there was a whole thread dedicated to that leaked $3 ending intreview app for example, which is relevent because of how it fits into this complaint. I find it disturbing that most gaming media personalities never seem to mention that while defending Bioware, or saying the fanboys are out of line.

Rather than saying stuff like "Fanboys are filing FTC complaints because they didn't like an ending" and making it sound absurd, care should be taken to understand all the layers to this issue and what that FTC complaint is actually being filed for (for example)... which is fraud and false advertising, as opposed to simply not liking the ending. What's more the overall equasion of WHY people don't like the ending is very important, as it goes beyond the ending itself being crap.


This best explains the whole Mass Effect 3 controversy.

TsunamiWombat:

bahumat42:

Faerillis:
Made it to 3:24, when it became clear that rather than actually looking into your mistakes, and apologizing for them, you simply doubled down on them.

Bob, I know you've received at least 2 pieces of fanmail that have explained how wrong you are about the reasons behind the "Retake Mass Effect" movement; and how erecting and attacking this Strawman is despicable. Glad to see you paid attention Bob...

Well, Bob, until recently your shows seemed fine but now you've made it utterly clear that you aren't worth a damn. Thanks for the videos that have entertained me for the last 2-1/2 years, because I for one won't be continuing watching your shows.
It's amazing that someone who has a show called "The Big Picture", could miss it so thoroughly.

wow this is exactly what the problem is

its the exact same thing, letting a minority part of a game, (or in this case bobs series) ruin the rest of it for you.

Just wow really.

Why is it when "artists" exercise their rights to ignore US they're just being artistic, when we exercise our right to tell them they're full of shit and ignore THEM we're entitled and whiny? This is how product to consumer works. You produce a product for the consumer and make them happy to take said product, whether that product is an actual item or an artistic work or a video you make for some website once a week. If consumers don't like that product for ANY reason they have every right to say "well, your full of shit bye" and take their time and money elsewhere. You of course are perfectly well within your rights to ignore these people and double down. How much this affects your business is dependent on the number of customers you fail to serve.

again its not you people saying its shit thats the problem, your entitled to think that and to vocalise it. But to pretend they lied to you, or demand a free change because it didn't go your way.

Thats just wrong.

There are smart people who have eloquently described their feelings who won't buy again. This is all fine. When people bitch and moan that they deserve some free extra endings because their weren't enough for them, no thats bullshit.

The great big evil that everyones pissed off about?
Ea marketed the multiple endings a bit too heavily. Thats it. They didn't lie about it, they just misled you, and to be frank marketers do that all the freaking time. If you can't see through such things like that than theres very little anyone can do for you.

So the guy wants to step on some toes, throw "whiny fanboys" around, but where is he? There's sure a lot of posts in here, but I don't see Mr. Chipman adding anything to the discussion, beyond a hateful diatribe. Must be nice to throw insults but not have to answer up to the people you're making them towards.

At the very least, I hope he reads the comments so he can learn something, and maybe earn a broader understanding of the topics he spews forth his opinion on. Not saying it would change his opinion, but it's always good to understand both sides of a coin.

wootsman:


This best explains the whole Mass Effect 3 controversy.

oh look theres more than 3 endings. :P

Do they not show a series of slightly different outcomes based on your decision, Yes they do (and to note that video leaves out the shepard breathing extra)

Not the best evidence iv seen. Pretty video though.

Those fans make some good points, but they are acting like spoiled children, in some ways.

It's marketing, GOD DAMNIT! I hate to say it, but toughen up. I don't know why you expected the endings to be so vastly different; that is NEVER the case. Maybe Bioware was just wrong, and not outright lying.

Also, DON'T pull up any bullshit analogies relating to sexism or some shit like the Facebook commenters. =

MarlonBlazed:
Why does nobody listen to you, why are there still people on this very forum still defending this trite when all the facts are in front of them... Are we all taking crazy pills or what?

I wish they would stop saying "SunshineandRainbows", "butt-hurt" and "fan-boy's", these people run words into the ground faster then an episode of HIMYM.

Anyway let me weigh in on this since unlike everyone here defending the rights of artists I actually am one... See your our meal ticket you own us like any boss, if you go these lengths to demand something it's my duty to oblige, we need you and you don't need us... It's just that simple, stop defending expendable pawns. Also to say this will somehow kneecap our creativity is very wrong mainly because YOU DEMAND THAT WE BE CREATIVE!

Creators should be free to work on their creations and the consumer should mostly be left out as giving them "exactly" what they want gives them nothing they want makes no sense when dealing with the fact that exactly what they want in this instance is anything but what they got.

You know there's no reason to bold anything my friend, I would eventually read everything you have to say anyhow.

But besides that- are you saying that we the fans shouldn't have a right to question or give criticism to the developers who makes our games and content simply because "It's theirart, deal with what they give"? Then with that, MovieBob would lose his job and Yahtzee wouldn't have a job ether. Why?

Their jobs are to review, criticize, and look into matters relating to videos games and/or movies. Everyone can agree or disagree on something but to say we have no right to give an opinion on such a huge matter that reflects on a series we devoted so much time into if not gotten really close to? That's not the way to go, if I find the ending to be everything Mass Effect stands for and the developer broke his promises as to how the ending would be.. why can't I call him out in a civil manner?

Also some of the stuff you've expressed I sadly did not understand. I'm not good with metaphors or riddles.. sorry bout that (no really I am clueless when it comes to that stuff).

bahumat42:

Faerillis:
Made it to 3:24, when it became clear that rather than actually looking into your mistakes, and apologizing for them, you simply doubled down on them.

Bob, I know you've received at least 2 pieces of fanmail that have explained how wrong you are about the reasons behind the "Retake Mass Effect" movement; and how erecting and attacking this Strawman is despicable. Glad to see you paid attention Bob...

Well, Bob, until recently your shows seemed fine but now you've made it utterly clear that you aren't worth a damn. Thanks for the videos that have entertained me for the last 2-1/2 years, because I for one won't be continuing watching your shows.
It's amazing that someone who has a show called "The Big Picture", could miss it so thoroughly.

wow this is exactly what the problem is

its the exact same thing, letting a minority part of a game, (or in this case bobs series) ruin the rest of it for you.

Just wow really.

Did I ever say that I think Mass Effect isn't worth it anymore because of its ending? Don't try to accredit me, or the movement, with beliefs we don't fucking hold. Mass Effect 3 had the best gameplay of any Mass Effect game, and improved many mechanics including conversing with your team members on the Normandy and various parts of the game actually made me go all misty eyed (to say the least). The Mass Effect series is a triumph, and excluding the ending the deepest thing done with video games, and the SciFi genre, to date. My complaint with it is that the ending comes out of left field and offers players false choice. Couple this with strong evidence suggesting that it was a false ending to begin with and EA and Bioware wanted to sell us a real ending, and I think fans have a damn good reason to pissed.

I'm done with MovieBob because I know that: 1. He did not play the game and is trying to proffer his opinion on something that he clearly has not tried to understand, 2. He is tarring a movement with beliefs they don't have (much as you did in your post with me) and erecting a strawman of them for everyone else to attack, and 3. Was warned of his mistakes and offered the opportunity to actually look into what he did wrong, but rather than rectify his mistakes or apologize for them he doubled down on them.
After pulling that kind of stunt, Bob's opinion simply isn't worth a pinch of shit to me. Hell, Jim Sterling and Yahtzee have both attacked the same thing as Bob this week, and both Jim Sterling and Yahtzee, came off as infinitely more reasonable and mature than Bob.

bahumat42:

The great big evil that everyones pissed off about?
Ea marketed the multiple endings a bit too heavily. Thats it. They didn't lie about it, they just misled you, and to be frank marketers do that all the freaking time. If you can't see through such things like that than theres very little anyone can do for you.

While I take issue with the tone, this is why so few journalists seem to care about the "marketing lied to us!" angle of the Retake movement. We see it happen all the time. It's nothing new, PR folks tell half-truths (or less) without fail. You just sort of learn to tune it out and check your optimism at the door. It sucks that that's the way this turned out. But ultimately, the sort of marketing crap that Bioware is getting put through the wringer for is standard operating procedure.

Hey Bob, I don't mean to be rude, but before you make these arguments go buy Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3 and play through them with the same save files and such. Then when you beat them all, then come to me and tell me that I still shouldn't be whining.

The problem isn't with us, and we are not asking to "fix" the ending just because we don't like it, it wasn't promised is what the problem was. We were told 16 endings, we got 3. We were told all our choices mattered, they did not. We are not asking for bioware to do anything other than to give closure that we were looking for.

Even then, I'm not even pissed at them for the endings entirely, I'm pissed at their PR, its like attempting to make conversation with the fucking answering machine.

Frank_Sinatra_:
Bad move Bob, very, very, very, very bad move.

It's apparent that you really haven't researched into the whole Mass Effect 3 debacle, so be prepared to hear that the Mass Effect series is a special case, BioWare didn't deliver on ANY of their promises, and they pretty much slapped their own IP in the face in the last 5 minutes of their game.

Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

EDIT: Before you go crying about how you're sick of people complaining, I think I should point you to THIS.

You can always trust Extra Credits to churn out a vid with a good arguement that doesn't talk down to people. Too bad the Escapist did them wrong.

Bob, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you haven't actually seen the Mass Effect 3 ending... I'm willing to bet all that talk about 'risk' wouldn't have been in there if you had seen the artless, risk-free thing in question.

What's most frustrating to me personally about the ME3 ending is that it feels like it's almost impossible to just agree with some points on this thing but not others. I don't feel that fans have a right to change the game canonically, but I do feel they are justified to be upset for being outright lied to and getting an ending that fails on every creative front. I don't think Bioware should change the ending, but I would love for them to come out and say

But if they didn't actually think about any of this, pulled it all out of their asses and fucked it up because they didn't care or couldn't be bothered to come up with an ending that at the very least made sense within the universe of the game then I think people have a legitimate reason to be mad.

Gigatoast:
Can we just establish a new rule here? If you have no idea why fans are upset then you have no right to critisize them for being upset.

If anyone here understood that then this wouldn't even be an issue.

not true
i've been read into the major reasons this thing is happening, and i still think 'the retake' thing has gone to far.

Therumancer:
Bob, for all the criticism I toss your way I respect you largely due to being an expert on the subject matter you address. In this case you really needed to do your research before sounding off.

For starters the "Mass Effect 3" suit/FTC complaint is not just because fans did not like the ending. It's because Bioware made promises involving the ending whcih went beyond general advertising hype, and then did not meet them, and actually conspired NOT to meet them. As insane as that sounds, it's what this end of things largely boils down to. Bioware released a lot of press statements saying that the ending would not be a simple "choice A B or C" affair and that the last game in the trilogy would wrap up any remaining questions. Bioware planned to release a $3 app which had interviews with the development team about the ending, where the interview team stated that they could have given the answers that were promised but intentionally decided not to, what's more rather than giving the ending the clear answer that was promised they decided to make the ending ambigious in order to inspire discussion of it. A lot of this is basically a fraud and false advertising complaint.

What's more, you have to understand that even on the ending front, this is not just people ranting about not liking the ending. It's about why the ending isn't disliked and what EA/Bioware was doing surrounding it. Originally "Mass Effect" was planned as a trilogy with one of the big selling points being that they had plotted it out from the very beginning, and that they weren't going to just be making it up as they went along. The promise that there were going to be clear answers and a satisfactory conclusion to all of the wierdness about giant space robots they were throwing out. What changed was EA/Bioware decided to go beyond this being a trilogy and turn it into a universal franchise, as such the information and answers people wanted and were promised because something they wanted to stretch out into other installments. That same $3 app mentioned above makes it clear that the writers were creating this current ending towards the end of the dev process for "Mass Effect 3" which means they pretty much decided to trash the original plans for the series and it's finale in the simple pursuit of money.

What's more, you, and pretty much everyone in the gaming media, even those that wind up agreeing with the fans to some extent, totally seem to miss the point that the ending of this game was monetized. It's amazing how the "whining fanboys" defense is used to try and drown out what is probably one of the most ridiculous things ever done with a video game. Not only is there an artsy/ambigious/do nothing ending that doesn't fit with the rest of the series, the ending is one where you can't see the entire thing unless you have acheived a certain level of War Assets. The thing is that the War Assets in the game are not sufficient to see everything in the ending. To get enough War Asset points to see everything you have to "backdoor" things by raising your galactic readiness rating which can only be done at the moment through the game's multiplayer mode which is monetized. Basically the multiplayer mode is designed to be fairly frustrating unless you put a lot of time into it, so you can unlock better character types and most importantly weapons, upgrades, and comsunables. The solution to that frustration coming in the form of an "I win" button where you can pay Bioware real money for packs of gear to make it less of a chore, especially if your interest is just the ending. As if that was not enough, EA/Bioware is in a position where they could also include more war assets in DLC to mitigate the multiplayer committment (but which requires you to pay for the DLC), not to mention their plans for tie in app games like "Mass Effect Infiltrator" which you can again buy to make it possible to see more of the ending.

In short Bob, not only is it a crap ending, it's a crap ending that EA/Bioware is trying to charge people more money to see, after they already bought the game. A point which also feeds back to the initial promises made with ME1 about this all being planned out to begin with. How could a monetized ending like this be planned, when it revolves around exploting technologies and money making avenues which were not really viable at the time ME1 was released?

How can you defend this crap artistically, when the whole issue is a matter of EA/Bioware having sold out their artistic integrity. Why we can't have nice things, is because we so far haven't drawn the line with crap like this, ME3 was the point where people said "enough is enough".

What the fans want Bob, is a proper ending that fits within the spirit of the game, like say the one they originally came up with. We also do not want EA/Bioware to come running after us with a bloody cash register to fully experience the ending of a game we already paid for. We also want the game industry to keep it's promises. If you say a game.. or any product... will do something, then decide to remove that functionality, it's perfectly reasonable for people to go after you for fraud. Like it or not Bioware *DID* make promises involving the ending, not in terms of "oh yeah it will be epic" like advertising hype, but flat out said it would not be a simple "choose A B or C" ending..... and yet that is what they did, they gave us a "choose A B or C" ending. How is that in any way okay?

I doubt you'll respond Bob, but really I'd like to hear what you think about all of this now that I'm laying it out. Most of what I'm saying here is also right here on The Escapist, there was a whole thread dedicated to that leaked $3 ending intreview app for example, which is relevent because of how it fits into this complaint. I find it disturbing that most gaming media personalities never seem to mention that while defending Bioware, or saying the fanboys are out of line.

Rather than saying stuff like "Fanboys are filing FTC complaints because they didn't like an ending" and making it sound absurd, care should be taken to understand all the layers to this issue and what that FTC complaint is actually being filed for (for example)... which is fraud and false advertising, as opposed to simply not liking the ending. What's more the overall equasion of WHY people don't like the ending is very important, as it goes beyond the ending itself being crap.

All very good points
but its not false advertising because there are more than just the a b c choices.
As for "wrapping up all the important stuff" or whatever the damn quote was, surely you can see that on anything this scope its impossible to tie up all threads. So thats again down to personal opinion on what tied up is.

Theres was different than yours. Marketers are hired to embellish things, thats their job if you or anyone else for that matter got too bought in, thats your fault for not being a responsible consumer.

The fact of the matter is you all lined up and bought day 1 ignoring needs for reviews and such things, this is the downside to doing that. Again take responsibility for your own actions.

Klitch:

laserwulf:
Well said, Bob. This reply is a drop in the ocean, but I can't remain silently complicit while a vocal minority brings so much negative attention to the gaming community as a whole. In so many of these arguments about ME3, defenders of Retake Mass Effect try to discredit opponents and/or elevate off-the-cuff comments about a game that is IN AN UNFINISHED STATE to the level of official advertising or some sort of legally binding agreement (FTC & BBB complaints, Amazon.com refunds? Really?), rather than address the issues that folks like you bring up.

The thing that really baffles me is that outside of professional reviews, I haven't heard what the community at large feels about the actual -game- portion of the game. Is the ending honestly so terrible that it makes 10/20/30/etc. hours of gameplay not fun?

I'm not so sure about us being the minority here (Poll 1)(Poll 2).

As to your last question, unfortunately I would say yes. The defining point of the entire Mass Effect trilogy was that you got to shape the galaxy with your actions and choices. This is literally THE driving force behind the game right up until the last 10 minutes of a 100+ hour journey where every decision you have ever made is rendered moot and you push one of three buttons to get one of three differently colored, but otherwise identical, cutscenes with no closure, no explanation, and no resolution (not to mention numerous newly-introduced plot holes).

To be clear the first 99% of ME3 is, in my book, one of the greatest games I've ever played, but I literally can't bring myself to go back and play any of the trilogy again knowing that nothing that I do matters in the slightest and every mystery and plot arc that I start will forever remain unfinished. This is a sentiment I've heard reflected in many places. I don't want a new ending; you can't un-write what has been written. I'm disappointed that this is how what is arguably the greatest RPG series ever made had to end, but I can deal with that. The lies, though...

The only thing those polls show is that the majority of people who answered that poll are dissatisfied. And who's more likely to take the time to visit a developer's forum and answer a poll about what content should be added to the story, those who are content (or even happy) with the game, or those who are displeased or angry?

Once I get near the ending of ME3, I'm going to just turn my 360 off, so as to not negate the fun I've had getting to that point.

miloram:

bahumat42:

The great big evil that everyones pissed off about?
Ea marketed the multiple endings a bit too heavily. Thats it. They didn't lie about it, they just misled you, and to be frank marketers do that all the freaking time. If you can't see through such things like that than theres very little anyone can do for you.

While I take issue with the tone, this is why so few journalists seem to care about the "marketing lied to us!" angle of the Retake movement. We see it happen all the time. It's nothing new, PR folks tell half-truths (or less) without fail. You just sort of learn to tune it out and check your optimism at the door. It sucks that that's the way this turned out. But ultimately, the sort of marketing crap that Bioware is getting put through the wringer for is standard operating procedure.

my tone is somewhat harshened atm due to there being so many of the same thread pop up.

I just want to talk about videogames :(

But yeah apologies if it came off badly.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Bob: stop talking about any video games made by anything other than Nintendo. Period. Don't even reference them. You show your ass each and every single time. You have no idea what you're talking about here.

Very simply:

-It isn't that the ME fans "didn't like" the endings. It is that the creators, prior to the game's release, made very specific claims about what those endings would entail. Specific enough to use exact numbers and concrete details.

-All of these turned out to be false. This has nothing to do with ~~artistic vision~~ - this has to do with lying and misleading the fans, then insinuating that we might be able to buy more DLC to make things better. This is about as far from "sticking to your guns" or having an "inviolable artistic vision" as you can get.

-False advertising is punishable by law in our society. While I wouldn't personally, the fan who did begin litigation was completely within his rights as a consumer. It may be a "work of art", but it is also a product, bought and paid for, about which false claims had been made in bad faith.

So, yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to a video game franchise. Again. What a shock.

Re: To those saying this sets a bad precedent.

Even if Retake manages to influence Mass Effect 3's ending, setting a precedent of audience outcry influencing a creator, I do not see this happening often. For creations to provoke this sort of response from its audience it has to have engaged them in a way nothing has done before.

Of course, there's the chance that small disputes would arise from controversial decisions but it's unlikely it'll reach the lengths Retake has gone to. I guess that will determine whether or not Retake is a game changing event or just a flash in the pan.

Come think of it, Jim Sterling is pretty much in direct opposition of Bob's stance on the topic. It would be interesting to get them to talk this out, I gather.

Holy shit, I actually agree with Bob about something. Better go ring Satan, see if it's snowing down there.

bahumat42:

wootsman:


This best explains the whole Mass Effect 3 controversy.

oh look theres more than 3 endings. :P

Do they not show a series of slightly different outcomes based on your decision, Yes they do (and to note that video leaves out the shepard breathing extra)

Not the best evidence iv seen. Pretty video though.

1:16 to 1:40

Weird, I had a conversation about he Mass Effect debacle, and I used the same basic argument as Bob here.

And for those that are pleading Bioware to change the ending, here's one little thing to think about. Bioware knew that this was going to be the end of the series, the last thing they say to the fans. Either, this ending is the one that they intended, one they wanted to have end their series, and now the fans are infringing on their artistic rights. Or, somewhere along the line, somebody just really didn't care how this series ended. I really can't see many other options that don't follow a similar trend to that.

laserwulf:

Klitch:

laserwulf:
Well said, Bob. This reply is a drop in the ocean, but I can't remain silently complicit while a vocal minority brings so much negative attention to the gaming community as a whole. In so many of these arguments about ME3, defenders of Retake Mass Effect try to discredit opponents and/or elevate off-the-cuff comments about a game that is IN AN UNFINISHED STATE to the level of official advertising or some sort of legally binding agreement (FTC & BBB complaints, Amazon.com refunds? Really?), rather than address the issues that folks like you bring up.

The thing that really baffles me is that outside of professional reviews, I haven't heard what the community at large feels about the actual -game- portion of the game. Is the ending honestly so terrible that it makes 10/20/30/etc. hours of gameplay not fun?

I'm not so sure about us being the minority here (Poll 1)(Poll 2).

As to your last question, unfortunately I would say yes. The defining point of the entire Mass Effect trilogy was that you got to shape the galaxy with your actions and choices. This is literally THE driving force behind the game right up until the last 10 minutes of a 100+ hour journey where every decision you have ever made is rendered moot and you push one of three buttons to get one of three differently colored, but otherwise identical, cutscenes with no closure, no explanation, and no resolution (not to mention numerous newly-introduced plot holes).

To be clear the first 99% of ME3 is, in my book, one of the greatest games I've ever played, but I literally can't bring myself to go back and play any of the trilogy again knowing that nothing that I do matters in the slightest and every mystery and plot arc that I start will forever remain unfinished. This is a sentiment I've heard reflected in many places. I don't want a new ending; you can't un-write what has been written. I'm disappointed that this is how what is arguably the greatest RPG series ever made had to end, but I can deal with that. The lies, though...

The only thing those polls show is that the majority of people who answered that poll are dissatisfied. And who's more likely to take the time to visit a developer's forum and answer a poll about what content should be added to the story, those who are content (or even happy) with the game, or those who are displeased or angry?

Once I get near the ending of ME3, I'm going to just turn my 360 off, so as to not negate the fun I've had getting to that point.

Honestly, that is probably a brilliant idea, but I don't mean to ruin the experience for you. You should definitely finish the game (especially if you have plugged in hundreds of hours into a carried-over save) because you might not hate the ending. I honestly don't understand how anybody could have possibly been satisfied by it, but some people have claimed as much. You should form your own opinion.

Also, I know those polls aren't scientific by any means, but when 97% of nearly 70,000 people on a forum that is owned and operated by the people who made the game express their dissatisfaction, I'm inclined to believe that we are actually the majority in this case. My own qualitative observation of various forums and media outlets (as well as my own exceedingly negative opinion of the ending itself) would seem to support this viewpoint. But it really doesn't matter which "side" has more people. I think everyone agrees that the entire situation is exceedingly unfortunate.

Edit: I should have mentioned that the prompt for Poll 1 has spoilers, sorry about that.

Saxnot:

Mcoffey:

Saxnot:
by this logic, i should be allowed to create a saw remake which consists entirely of a steady shot of a field of grass where nothing happens for 2 hours.

what? you buy the ticket, you take the risk, right? don't try to limit my artistic freedom!

artistic integrity is important, true, but when you're working on a series consistency is just as important. a good sequel manages to keep what's good and improve what's bad about the previous iteration. in that regard, the ending of ME3 throws all consistency overboard to create something mediocre at best. that isn't artistic freedom, that's artistic failure

Yes. You absolutely can. Don't expect to be very successful, but that's totally your prerogative if you get the go ahead from the company to make that movie.

That's not the issue. The issue is people not liking something and thinking that the reasonable response is to act like a bunch of five-year olds and demand other people change for them.

I didn't like the third Matrix movie.

I got over it, and I don't watch it anymore.

I didn't like the ending to Mass Effect 3.

I complained, got over it, and I probably wont buy any more Mass Effect games.

You see where I'm going with this?

I'm not going to demand they change the ending, to Mass Effect or the Matrix. That is simply not my call to make. And it's not the fans call either.

yes, but it's not that simple. the point i was trying to make is that artists don't exist in a vacuum. especially when you're talking about the ending to a series, it is expected of an artist that they at least try to stay consistent with their earlier work. this is not an unreasonable expectation, and when you break that expectation, you should have good reason for doing so.

what the ME3 witing team did is look at what made their game stand out, what the elements were that made so many people love it and go 'well, f*ck that, imma go make an ending where the colours are different.'
ending can be dissapointing, sure, but at least they are usually consistent with what came before. if they're not, that's reasonable grounds for complaint.

with regards to changing the ending: changing it at this point would not help much, the ending they shipped is the one that will make the lasting impression. it might be a point of artistic integrity to at least try to do right by their own franchise though

It's fine to expect things, but those expectations are not a legally binding agreement. It's better if they have a good reason, but there is nothing that says that they must have one.
It's shitty, yeah, but it's still ultimately their call, and one they have every right to make.

And you're right, it's totally worthy of complaint. People have every right to complain. They should not, however, expect their complaints to have power behind it. The gamers are Bioware's customers, not their bosses. It's nice if Bioware takes their criticism to heart, but they have no obligation to do so, and it's wrong for so many to expect them to.

Frank_Sinatra_:
Bad move Bob, very, very, very, very bad move.

It's apparent that you really haven't researched into the whole Mass Effect 3 debacle, so be prepared to hear that the Mass Effect series is a special case, BioWare didn't deliver on ANY of their promises, and they pretty much slapped their own IP in the face in the last 5 minutes of their game.

Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

EDIT: Before you go crying about how you're sick of people complaining, I think I should point you to THIS.

370999:

RaikuFA:

370999:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.

Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.

That is an extreme fringe and accompanies anything which is emotional. Bob is not a man to chide others for childish outbursts, remember the whole comparison between the Transformers movies and his dogs skeleton being dug out, covered in shit and views of it sold? I do.

Pretty much this.

What little trust I placed in Moviebob to be able to express something legitimate has now disappeared. I'm not "lol butthurt" or anything, just disappointed. Not that it really matters, but Moviebob has lost a longtime follower today. *shrug*

Trombone_Hero:
Weird, I had a conversation about he Mass Effect debacle, and I used the same basic argument as Bob here.

And for those that are pleading Bioware to change the ending, here's one little thing to think about. Bioware knew that this was going to be the end of the series, the last thing they say to the fans. Either, this ending is the one that they intended, one they wanted to have end their series, and now the fans are infringing on their artistic rights. Or, somewhere along the line, somebody just really didn't care how this series ended. I really can't see many other options that don't follow a similar trend to that.

There are waay too many options. It may be the result of EA shoehorning kinect integration and moving the release date. It may be that it's the result of 2 writers working on it without sharing it with the rest of the team. It may be a naked PR move. So many ways...

Hell I think people would've been fine with a bleak ending if it wasn't so ridden with plot holes, foreshadowed appropiately, and didn't leave everything unresolved. All reasons which feed the theory that this is a machiavellian PR move.

bahumat42:
again its not you people saying its shit thats the problem, your entitled to think that and to vocalise it. But to pretend they lied to you, or demand a free change because it didn't go your way.

Thats just wrong.

There are smart people who have eloquently described their feelings who won't buy again. This is all fine. When people bitch and moan that they deserve some free extra endings because their weren't enough for them, no thats bullshit.

The great big evil that everyones pissed off about?
Ea marketed the multiple endings a bit too heavily. Thats it. They didn't lie about it, they just misled you, and to be frank marketers do that all the freaking time. If you can't see through such things like that than theres very little anyone can do for you.

I've got to point you at this:

Casey Hudson:
This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we're taking into account so many decisions that you've made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It's not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C

Source: http://www.oxm.co.uk/37677/mass-effect-3-citadel-is-bigger-than-ever-endings-will-be-more-sophisticated/

Hudson flat out stated, at most a month before the game went gold, that the end of ME3 would not feature an EndingTron with buttons to press to get your ending. Yet that is exactly what they delivered. That is a blatant lie to the consumer base. Is it enough for legal action? I don't know, but it's certainly false advertising in spirit.

I've generally been supportive of the "Retake" movement, but now that my initial disbelief and anger has cooled, I have to admit, Bob makes some good points. After all this time and effort we as gamers have dedicated to trying to make mainstream society accept that video games are an art form, we need to treat them as any other art. I may loath the ending that Bioware gave us with every fiber of my being (especially the ending cut-scenes; goddamn talk about being lazy), but I cannot any longer, in good conscience, continue to demand changes to the ME3 ending while simultaneously demanding that the medium be treated with the respect due to any other artistic medium, and that includes allowing the creators to end it in whatever fashion they choose, regardless of how stupid I (or indeed, everyone) feels it might be.

TheRightToArmBears:
Holy shit, I actually agree with Bob about something. Better go ring Satan, see if it's snowing down there.

It's not. That will only happen if the Chicago Cubs win the World Series. Sorry but I just had to make this comment.

You know, I would respect Bob's opinion a lot more here if he weren't knocking down the same already tired strawman everyone else is.

bahumat42:
All very good points
but its not false advertising because there are more than just the a b c choices.
As for "wrapping up all the important stuff" or whatever the damn quote was, surely you can see that on anything this scope its impossible to tie up all threads. So thats again down to personal opinion on what tied up is.

Yes. Yes it was. You get 3 buttons to press at the end of the game and you then get 3 endings that are almost identical save for the color of the wave of space magic. You also get very, very small cutscenes added in depending on your EMS. These cutscenes are on the order of 2-5 seconds and answer no questions and resolve no conflict. It's utterly meaningless.

bahumat42:
Theres was different than yours. Marketers are hired to embellish things, thats their job if you or anyone else for that matter got too bought in, thats your fault for not being a responsible consumer.

The fact of the matter is you all lined up and bought day 1 ignoring needs for reviews and such things, this is the downside to doing that. Again take responsibility for your own actions.

I would agree with this point, except none of the professional reviews I've read have so much as mentioned just how bad the end is. It's all completely glossed over, meaning even if someone had waited, there wouldn't be any professional/reputable information about it.

bahumat42:

wootsman:


This best explains the whole Mass Effect 3 controversy.

oh look theres more than 3 endings. :P

Do they not show a series of slightly different outcomes based on your decision, Yes they do (and to note that video leaves out the shepard breathing extra)

Not the best evidence iv seen. Pretty video though.

Actually, I don't think that's the video you think it is (I say this because I know I thought it was a different video when I saw it linked). Look at the timestamp. Total runtime: 11 minutes, 24 seconds. While it does include footage from the ending, the video as a whole is actually comprised mainly of commentary, which in no small part focused on the idea of 'artistic integrity' (Even referencing "The Fountain" - a urinal presented as art - to exemplify how "anything can be art if we say it is and 'art' alone doesn't imply merit")

bahumat42:

All very good points
but its not false advertising because there are more than just the a b c choices.
As for "wrapping up all the important stuff" or whatever the damn quote was, surely you can see that on anything this scope its impossible to tie up all threads. So thats again down to personal opinion on what tied up is.

Theres was different than yours. Marketers are hired to embellish things, thats their job if you or anyone else for that matter got too bought in, thats your fault for not being a responsible consumer.

The fact of the matter is you all lined up and bought day 1 ignoring needs for reviews and such things, this is the downside to doing that. Again take responsibility for your own actions.

Except there aren't more than 3 choices, you make one of three choices, and watch what happens, the makers of the game decided to cut it up slightly, and only paste some of it over certain choices, then they claim the game has 17 endings or whatever, and honestly, I can live with that, what I can't accept from them is when you can find interviews before this came out talking about the different kinds of endings you will get, that according to them at the time, were in the game, only to buy the game yourself and find that they aren't there. That is lying, not embellishing, and that review thing falls completely flat, obviously reviews aren't going to talk about the ending, and who would wait around long enough before buying the game to read a plot synopsis and spoil everything for themselves?

Also before you reply I'd highly recommend you watch this video from a guy who explains in far better detail why the ending(s) are bad without any fan boy BS that was never there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H_A7SeawU4&feature=g-all-u&context=G2d94660FAAAAAAAAQAA

Aisaku:

Draech:

Aisaku:
While Bob may be completely right on the legal side of things, he is definitely missing the big picture here.

1. Videogames are not movies, they're not books. DLC set the precedent for games to change and divert from their original form.

2. What I am arguing as a fan is that this is no the ending that the series deserve. And given the precedent of DLC, Bioware could very well go back and revisit it. I'm not asking for Bioware to do exactly as I want, but for them to meet their own standards.

3. Good or bad Bioware and ME3 is getting an unprecedented amount of publicity over this. This is something that's making them money, money they wouldn't have made otherwise if they had gone a more conventional way. Even Bob's benefiting from standing on this side of the debate. How can you divorce this from the decision to make the ending so inflaming?

If authorial intent is sacrosanct, what intent can we derive from the endings as a whole? Once you realize that all the permutations amount to killing off all the major players as well as the galaxy around them?. Is it not to leave the invested audience with a gaping wound?

In a movie this would be fine, after all it wasn't you who shaped the main character, all the characters and the world around them under the author's control. Even if you identify with the character,it's easier to let go. This is not the case with Mass Effect.

It may be unprecedented, but once you look at all the forces involved, what Bioware did is not unlike an author holding a beloved character hostage for publicity, larger monetary gains and getting the invested readership to pay ransom.

How can you not find that despicable I do not know.

Counterpoints
1: By the choice of the original creator only.

2: if you are only arguing that the ending is bad, then you got no problem with what Bob said. Critique wasn't a problem. An entitled sense of ownership over the story was the problem.

3: Deal with that as it is. That Bioware is being at an advantage because of possessive fanboys doesn't mean that the possessive fanboys arn't acting like spoiled children.

Side note:
That you shaped this char makes no difference. You were still only shaping him within the bounds and limits setup by the original artist. It is a misunderstanding I have seen dragged out as an argument again and again. Only real choice you have outside the artists creation is to Play or not to.

You do not get ownership over the chars or the setting just because you like them very much. You can call it holding a char hostage all you want, but it isn't a real person. It is their work.

I got that point from Bob: Fans do not get ownership in any way. It's crystal clear.

What I'm objecting to here is to the blatant manipulation of the fanbase. They measured the ramifications of the fan outcry and went ahead with it. Are authors responsible for their fanbase? Of course not.

Nevertheless, there's an unspoken contract between the author and the audience, the promises made by both sides of the line that when upheld lead to long fulfilling relationships.Bioware broke the author - audience contract and is laughing all the way to the bank. Not all of the outcrying fanbase may be aware of it, but this is something worth standing against.

To blame Bioware for the fan outcry is to blame George Lucas for starwars outcry. Complete silly.

The easiest way to prevent them taking advantage of us acting like children is to stop acting like fucking children. Dont like it do what you did with any thing you dont like. Try to avoid it rather than obsess over it.

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