Jimquisition: Changing A Game's Ending And Destroying Art

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I... I never thought I would find myself seriously saying this... But today. Today the moment has come.

Thank God for Jim!!

Don Reba:
I don't watch this. The illustration alone is annoying enough.

>.> ... then your posting here because?

OT: good ep Jim, kinda (read: alot) disappointed is 'another fucking ME3 video', but you made some good points, and glad your show got better, its been part of my 'Monday routine', well, since the beginning.

Nicolaus99:
Gee Jim, taking notes from Bob now in that you have to drag your liberal politics into the episode? You want to talk unwelcome protesters of whatever and you drag out the Tea Party; why not the rapist, public defecating, anarchist infested Occupy movement?

Leave the politics to MSNBC and Fox, Jim. This IS a gaming site last I checked.

Relax. Deep breath. I don't think he was commenting on the right or wrong of the tea party, just the hard line they take on their stance. I think his position is like a lot of political analysts do that the tea party undermined their viability and threatened their longevity by refusing to compromise on any point in their agenda whatsoever. Some people, even within the Tea Party itself believe they could have a much more powerful effect and prevent being marginalized by understanding the limits of what they can affect at the moment and being reasonable about it and working to get their principles included in more laws instead of just rejecting laws that don't match their principles without even considering editing, and refusing to edit laws they propose with the full knowledge that they will most likely be summarily rejected.

Fappy:
Thank god... a level-headed opinion from a game pundit I can get behind.

Wouldn't we all like to get behind Jim? Hmmm? Oh yes we would. But wouldn't he rather get behind us?

Yeah, I went there.

Sylocat:
Here's the problem:

All that Jim said about "showing that endings matter" would be a great lesson... but that's not what publishers or gamers are going to take away from this. The precedent that actually WILL be established is: "Publishers will change an established game to popular specification, if the fans scream loud enough!" That's the only lesson that's going to be learned from this.

And if the publishers start caving to THAT precedent, then no writer worth a damn will ever work for the big-name publishers. They're ALREADY incredibly risk-averse, and this will just make things even worse. They may churn out a lot of garbage now, but you would not believe the garbage they'll be knocking off if they think that their work can be tossed out at the whim of internet hatedoms.

There isn't going to be a happy ending to this mess, but this campaign is the ultimate in short-term self-gratification against long-term potential.

See the problem here is that you are assuming what will happen, and basing your value judgement off that. Art from adversity, that's what the game industry needs now I think. Not this, complacent, "oh well, they can do whatever they want" attitude.

You mean we have an opinion from a regular video contributor to the Escapist who hasn't decided to massacre strawmen?

Thank GOD for Jim!

Sylocat:

All that Jim said about "showing that endings matter" would be a great lesson... but that's not what publishers or gamers are going to take away from this. The precedent that actually WILL be established is: "Publishers will change an established game to popular specification, if the fans scream loud enough!" That's the only lesson that's going to be learned from this.

What specification is being demanded in the case of Mass Effect?

I don't even think this would be remotely an issue if the critics would stop railing against the fake argument that Mass Effect fans want the ending to exacting specifications. Or want a happy ending. Both are demonstrably false looking at the actual movement behind this.

I just looked at the Indoctranation Theory thing today and now I think that the ending is like that intentionally because Bioware already prepared another ending and this may have been an attempt to top the twist in Knights of the Old Republic.

Teoes:

Fappy:
Thank god... a level-headed opinion from a game pundit I can get behind.

Wouldn't we all like to get behind Jim? Hmmm? Oh yes we would. But wouldn't he rather get behind us?

Yeah, I went there.

I would argue with him... so long as he spoke dirty to me for the appropriate amount of time beforehand. We all know how good he is at that.

How suprising. Someone who doesn't agree with changing the ending "OH YOU JUST DON'T GET IT" and then Jim here agrees with y'all and "OH MY GOODNESS THANK YOU, SOMEBODY FINALLY GETS IT <3." This whole ending thing is just silly. You beat a game, you either like it or you don't, then you play another. Sheesh

Hell, I'll say it. Thank god for Jim. Finally someone who feels the need to comment on this whole debacle actually looks at the ending and not just the controversy. It doesn't need to be happy, it doesn't need to meet every fan's wildest dreams. It just needs to SUCK LESS. If it were an issue of entitlement and simple fan rage it would not be as huge a... thing... as it is.

Dear Jim: you got it. Thanks God for you.

I would like to add that if Bioware release an ending DLC this year (free or not), it means that it has been planned at the very least before the release of the game.

A question to the well informed: do you think that the amount of shitty endings we see in most videogames has something to do with the fact that only a tiny fragments of players actually finish games?

Regardless of your opinion on the matter, I think you've done the most responsible thing as a guy that forms opinion by giving this whole issue another look.

Most journalists are really not doing it and are stuck with pre-historic arguments about the situation. This debate were fairly dynamic and it evolved, but very few people were able to understand that.

Congratulations for the work well done.

Qitz:
I would love to see a Jim V Movie Bob debate, or shouting match as it could get into, about stuff.

Bob shouts down from an ivory tower, he doesn't actually address rebuttals.

Jim laid it down today. Anyone who calls him all reactionary should forever be directed back to this episode where he very eloquently said it like it is. Thank god for Jim

Sylocat:
Here's the problem:

All that Jim said about "showing that endings matter" would be a great lesson... but that's not what publishers or gamers are going to take away from this. The precedent that actually WILL be established is: "Publishers will change an established game to popular specification, if the fans scream loud enough!" That's the only lesson that's going to be learned from this.

And if the publishers start caving to THAT precedent, then no writer worth a damn will ever work for the big-name publishers. They're ALREADY incredibly risk-averse, and this will just make things even worse. They may churn out a lot of garbage now, but you would not believe the garbage they'll be knocking off if they think that their work can be tossed out at the whim of internet hatedoms.

There isn't going to be a happy ending to this mess, but this campaign is the ultimate in short-term self-gratification against long-term potential.

The only ones making it worse is the gaming press making all this look like that it is something unprecedented an terrible.

You might not like it when art changes or is added to, but it is not dangerous and it is not going to change the industry (only maybe for the better, because some companies might think twice before releasing shit).

Google: Sherlock Holmes, pre-screening movies, Fallout 3, Mass Effect Deception, also google Casey Hudson's statements and focus on the ones about the endings and about the players co-authoring the whole thing. If you have time, reflect about the meaning of the words interactive media.

Somethings change for the better, others don't, but saying that art is immutable is crazy. It wasn't like that 500 years ago and it certainly is not like that today, when art is mass produced to become a commodity.

Thank you Jim

It was very annoying that nearly all professional reviewers and video game commenters were simply dismissing the fans criticism out of hand because of the 'fanboy' assumptions, so for you to admit to sharing a similar viewpoint until you looked into it and then putting forward a solid and reasoned opinion on it has made me respect you all the more.

Kudos to you Jim, im glad your still here, and i hope you'll be here for a very long time.

Lunar Templar:

Don Reba:
I don't watch this. The illustration alone is annoying enough.

>.> ... then your posting here because?

Because the illustration is annoying.

Malignanttoe:
Why do half the drawings on here have penises? It just seems a little juvenile and detracts from the intelligent point being made.

It's called Deranged Art. It's fun/interesting to look at and prevents the show from being a podcast.

J.d. Scott:

Nicolaus99:
Gee Jim, taking notes from Bob now in that you have to drag your liberal politics into the episode? You want to talk unwelcome protesters of whatever and you drag out the Tea Party; why not the rapist, public defecating, anarchist infested Occupy movement?

Leave the politics to MSNBC and Fox, Jim. This IS a gaming site last I checked.

Relax. Deep breath. I don't think he was commenting on the right or wrong of the tea party, just the hard line they take on their stance. I think his position is like a lot of political analysts do that the tea party undermined their viability and threatened their longevity by refusing to compromise on any point in their agenda whatsoever. Some people, even within the Tea Party itself believe they could have a much more powerful effect and prevent being marginalized by understanding the limits of what they can affect at the moment and being reasonable about it and working to get their principles included in more laws instead of just rejecting laws that don't match their principles without even considering editing, and refusing to edit laws they propose with the full knowledge that they will most likely be summarily rejected.

/eyeroll Right or wrong of X political movement is irrelevant. Jim, good liberal that he clearly is, wants a failed group of unrealistic protesters to invoke as a negative comparison to the Retake Mass Effect protesters. But lets take it right from Jim's mouth around 5:20.

"and they need to be reasonable about what they can influence. Looking at the Retake Mass Effect folk while their extremists risk becoming the Tea Party of game culture..."

If you want a failed, unreasonable, extremist protester group, you need look no further than Occupy Whatever. The Tea Party put chosen butts in Congress seats. What have you got for results/influence? Occupy committed vandalism, robbed churches sheltering them and cost their victim cities millions of dollars, all while accomplishing nothing at all. But when Jim needs to invoke a group of failed political extremists, he reaches for the Tea Party because that's just what typical liberals do. I expect that from Libs. My grievance is that he chooses to do so here on The Escapist. A site for video gaming and geek culture. Jims, and Bobs for that matter, politics? Neither. On-Topic. Not asking for much here.

This is the first jimquisition i've watched since the first one just because it's actually refreshing to see people GET why people are so up in arms about ME3. Very well presented.

Though i will say you would have mentioned a bit more about why people are up in arms. Mainly because Bioware/EA promised an ending where our choices mattered, which was not delivered.

Great otherwise, i'm going to keep my eye on your videos from now on.

*applauds*

Well said Jim. I agree wholeheartedly on this.

Hopefully, MovieBob watched that...

With all this talk about how shit the ending was, and after Razorfist's brutal beatdown of the game...ME3 has moved to the bottom of my "MUST PLAY!" list. It was originally gonna be the next game on the list after I finish with Persona 4...But now? Now I'm gonna finish P4, play Skyward Sword, Then Xenoblade, and THEN I'll finally get to ME3. Hopefully at which point the ending situation will have been rectified somewhat.

BTW, I'm fine with sad/bleak endings. Look at freakin Infamous 2. Look at BOTH FREAKIN ENDINGS. You cannot continue that series. You just can't. And that's why I say that Infamous 2 has THE best game ending I have ever played. I just want the biggest, most epic trilogy with transferable save files seen to date to have an ending that is actually appropriate for the scale and expectation that they have built up for us to expect from this series.

DugMachine:
How suprising. Someone who doesn't agree with changing the ending "OH YOU JUST DON'T GET IT" and then Jim here agrees with y'all and "OH MY GOODNESS THANK YOU, SOMEBODY FINALLY GETS IT <3." This whole ending thing is just silly. You beat a game, you either like it or you don't, then you play another. Sheesh

People's grievance wasn't "i think the ending sucked, change it." it was "This is NOT what you have been promising us all through development."

You and Shamus have really tackled this issue the best on this site. I'm tired of journalists just attacking strawmen.

Nicolaus99:

J.d. Scott:

Nicolaus99:
Gee Jim, taking notes from Bob now in that you have to drag your liberal politics into the episode? You want to talk unwelcome protesters of whatever and you drag out the Tea Party; why not the rapist, public defecating, anarchist infested Occupy movement?

Leave the politics to MSNBC and Fox, Jim. This IS a gaming site last I checked.

Relax. Deep breath. I don't think he was commenting on the right or wrong of the tea party, just the hard line they take on their stance. I think his position is like a lot of political analysts do that the tea party undermined their viability and threatened their longevity by refusing to compromise on any point in their agenda whatsoever. Some people, even within the Tea Party itself believe they could have a much more powerful effect and prevent being marginalized by understanding the limits of what they can affect at the moment and being reasonable about it and working to get their principles included in more laws instead of just rejecting laws that don't match their principles without even considering editing, and refusing to edit laws they propose with the full knowledge that they will most likely be summarily rejected.

/eyeroll Right or wrong of X political movement is irrelevant. Jim, good liberal that he clearly is, wants a failed group of unrealistic protesters to invoke as a negative comparison to the Retake Mass Effect protesters. But lets take it right from Jim's mouth around 5:20.

"and they need to be reasonable about what they can influence. Looking at the Retake Mass Effect folk while their extremists risk becoming the Tea Party of game culture..."

If you want a failed, unreasonable, extremist protester group, you need look no further than Occupy Whatever. The Tea Party put chosen butts in Congress seats. What have you got for results/influence? Occupy committed vandalism, robbed churches sheltering them and cost their victim cities millions of dollars, all while accomplishing nothing at all. But when Jim needs to invoke a group of failed political extremists, he reaches for the Tea Party because that's just what typical liberals do. I expect that from Libs. My grievance is that he chooses to do so here on The Escapist. A site for video gaming and geek culture. Jims, and Bobs for that matter, politics? Neither. On-Topic. Not asking for much here.

Wait. Weren't you just saying something about leaving the politics to MSNBC and FOX? Apparently, you just wanted to replace one badly drawn comparison with the badly drawn comparison you like more.

Azex:
Biowares intention from the start was to have a crap ending so they could milk us for more DLC. It's a really sad state of affairs and it seems to be the new trend in dlc

I'm sorry, but I can't help but disagree with this argument. Believe me, you're not the first, nor will you be the last to make it, but... This simply isn't true, and I get more and more upset with the state of affairs every time I see another person say this. I'm sure that this was by no means Bioware's intent from the start. In fact, the more evidence I see, the more I believe the contrary. Bioware never intended this to be a shit ending, nor did they realize it was one (hard though it may be to miss). One of the lead project designers indicated that it was supposed to be 'polarizing'. While they may have intended it to be controversial (not the best idea, in my opinion), they certainly didn't intend for it to be DLC bait.

Thank You
-Izzy

You have grown on me Jim, you lovable scamp. the first 2 episodes i couldn't stand your ego, but now its all part of your charm/humor to me. Indeed, along with Yahtzee and Moviebob, you three make up the reasons I come back to this site, because you all make valid points, even if i may not agree fully at times or not really care about the subject. Point being, if you ever glance at this, jim, know that I support you and keep up the good work. not that you care what i think =3

OT: Yeah Jim that pretty much sums it up. never played mass effect but i'd be pissed too if i was promised heaven and given a pile of poo with a sign that says "heaven" sticking out if it. not the same by a longshot.

Raika:

Mikeyfell:
Who would have guessed, Jim is right again.

So we have Jim and MovieBob with polar opposite opinions, what ever happened to Extra Consideration?

That's a really good question. Without that insufferable James Portnoy involved, Extra Consideration can only get better.

Insufferable? Until recently they were the only group that made sense and had actual research behind their videos. Moviebob is too busy having his head buried up his ass to even consider doing research, or forming anything resembling a coherent opinion, Yahtzee being the same, and Jim has too much fun most of the time to be a flamebaiting troll to actually matter.

Yes, I get what the problem is. My point is who cares what they promised? It's a video game, meant for entertainment and to invoke some feelings or whatever. If you enjoyed 99% of this game and the last sucks, who cares? Why should any choices we make really matter when everything is wiped out? Just realistic to me.

But this is just my opinion. I thought the ending was meh but i'm not up in arms over this. So they went against what they said they were going give us. At least we still got a solid ass game.

DVS BSTrD:
I can see you've thought long and hard on this issue Jim.
Thank-you. There is a difference between art and property and change is not fundamentally good, bad or wrong.

anthony87:
It's actually pretty fucking refreshing for Jim to admit that his initial impressions about the people wanting the ending changed were wrong and that he can even see where they're coming from once he'd LOOKED INTO IT A BIT MORE*

Fair play to you Mr. Sterling.

*Caps'd and bolded on the off chance that Moviebob comes into the thread and gets a clue about the proper attitude to have towards something like this.

He won't. We all know Bob doesn't respect fan outrage unless it's his own.

Of course MovieBob doesn't respect the outrage of the plebians, because they obviously have no clue what they're talking about. Besides, his own outrage is always justified.

He is the fair and levelheaded MovieBob, is he not?

...

Jim, the diplomat...

...

When did that happen? :9

DugMachine:
Yes, I get what the problem is. My point is who cares what they promised? It's a video game, meant for entertainment and to invoke some feelings or whatever. If you enjoyed 99% of this game and the last sucks, who cares? Why should any choices we make really matter when everything is wiped out? Just realistic to me.

But this is just my opinion. I thought the ending was meh but i'm not up in arms over this. So they went against what they said they were going give us. At least we still got a solid ass game.

So promises mean nothing? I guess that means that after all of the hype and promises, they could ship Bioshock: Infinite as a side scrolling adventure with ponies teaching the player the values of love and friendship. Their promises don't mean anything, right?

And yes, as they set it up it makes sense for none of your choices to matter. They didn't have to end the series by murdering everyone - that was their (or in this case, Casey Hudson's) choice. But the choices the player made were supposed to matter. It was plastered over everything, and was the major selling point of the game.
Note that I respect your opinion, I just disagree with several of your points. Hope I wasn't too confrontational.

this may be the first time I completely agree with that smug little bastard (I mean that in a nice way)

Nicolaus99:
Snip

Some members of the tea party would have a problem with Jim because he's English and working in America.

http://dailycaller.com/2010/09/23/tea-party-divided-over-immigration/

http://austinist.com/2011/09/14/perry_faces_tea_party_criticism_on.php

I can't imagine the hippy loving liberals of the various occupy movements would be as adamant about his nationality.

"Most Tea Party members believe that immigrants are taking jobs from Americans. Party proponents reject the premise that there are menial, essential jobs that U.S. citizens don't want and only immigrant workers will take."

http://immigration.about.com/od/immigrationlawandpolicy/a/Tea-Party-On-Immigration.htm

So on that basis i think Jim is entitled to take as many swipes as he likes at the Tea Party.

Is it just me that didn't really like the ending to that episode?

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