Jimquisition: Changing A Game's Ending And Destroying Art

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 NEXT
 

Thanks Jim! You da man!!

Plus your totally right about Alien 3 and Blade Runner. Good examples.

wow... jim, the guy who i said tends to address the troll side of issues rather than the serious ones, is the ONE journalist who isnt addressing the obsessive talimancers wish of a happy ending and pulling the "art is GOD' card, and actually adressing what most of our actual concerns are.

major brownie points, jim.

I do love how Jim brought up how his own first few episodes were a bit shite and he took some of the audience's advice (amidst all of the "Piss off"'s) to make a show that we fairly all appreciate.

But as it stands, it seems like the Escapist's most vocal contributors seem a bit divided over ME3's ending, so who here wants another Extra Consideration to see them blow up a part of the Internet arguing over it?

Wow, Jim. I applaud you for actually looking into a subject before making uninformed comments on it. I wish other video content producers on the side would have that kind of.. integrity?

Keep up the good work.

anthony87:

I dunno, I don't think it's really fair to say he's douchey for having his own point of view. If he disagrees with the points raised in his video then that's his prerogative I guess.

It isn't that he disagrees with me, it's his attitude and presentation. He pretends he's some guru on the topic of gaming and talks down to anyone who disagrees with him.

Hell, even -that- wouldn't bother me if he didn't straw man opposing points of view at every opportunity and call people who send him messages disagreeing with him 'trolls'.

J.d. Scott:

anthony87:

Pandabearparade:

I stand corrected. Though the reply in question just further cements what a pretentious douche Bob is.

I dunno, I don't think it's really fair to say he's douchey for having his own point of view. If he disagrees with the points raised in his video then that's his prerogative I guess.

What I WILL say is douchey however is the way he opens up his post, mentioning the "trolling" he's been bombarded with for the past two weeks. I mean "trolling"? Really?

Here's a thought Bob, maybe if you hadn't gone on Twitter and started insulting people while having no knowledge regarding the matter of why said people were upset, perhaps then they wouldn't be "trolling" you.

I seriously don't think that bothers Bob. His twitter account has been a nest of vitriol for a while now. I think he was more mocking the fact that the people trying to troll him had no idea what they're talking about.

People with strong opinions often get a fair amount of hatred. I think the man is pretty thick-skinned by now. You should have seen the hatred the Other M thing generated.

I know what you mean but there's having a strong opinion and then there's just being an asshole. Bob doesn't seem to be able to differentiate between the two.

I keep hearing mentions of all this Other M stuff. Was it really that bad?

I don't normally watch Jimquisition but this nicely sums up why I feel that whether you like the ME3 ending or not changing it still wouldn't be the end of the world. Storytelling is an inherently collaborative process and writers have the right to change parts of their story based on feedback, why should they lose that right or be stigmatised for exercising it after the release date?

Nicely done, Jim. I like the fact that you did some of your own research before you did the video.
I caught myself nodding in agreement throughout.

Well done. Because of Jim, I can now count TWO game personalities on the internet that aren't condescending pricks about this whole controversy. I'll let you guess who the other one is.

You know how I think BioWare should salvage the situation? They should add in the new ending via DLC, but they should accompany it with a press release stating something along the lines of this (even if it's false):

"We are adding the ending back in that we wanted to do in the first place. The only reason we cut it is because EA forced us to, and incidentally, the reason they forced us to is because it didn't go over well with test audiences. So basically this whole fan campaign was just trying to get us to undo a change that the audience themselves demanded in the first place. And look, we're not SAYING that the consumer base are a bunch of morons who don't know what they want, but..."

This way they can put a better ending in, while preemptively crippling any further whining by damaging the base credibility of the "retake" concept. This is how they can avoid setting that horrible precedent.

LetalisK:
Well done. Because of Jim, I can now count TWO game personalities on the internet that aren't condescending pricks about this whole controversy. I'll let you guess who the other one is.

VGCats?

No? Who?

Pandabearparade:

LetalisK:
Well done. Because of Jim, I can now count TWO game personalities on the internet that aren't condescending pricks about this whole controversy. I'll let you guess who the other one is.

VGCats?

No? Who?

Shamus?

He was pretty non-condescending in his article about it.

anthony87:

J.d. Scott:

anthony87:

I dunno, I don't think it's really fair to say he's douchey for having his own point of view. If he disagrees with the points raised in his video then that's his prerogative I guess.

What I WILL say is douchey however is the way he opens up his post, mentioning the "trolling" he's been bombarded with for the past two weeks. I mean "trolling"? Really?

Here's a thought Bob, maybe if you hadn't gone on Twitter and started insulting people while having no knowledge regarding the matter of why said people were upset, perhaps then they wouldn't be "trolling" you.

I seriously don't think that bothers Bob. His twitter account has been a nest of vitriol for a while now. I think he was more mocking the fact that the people trying to troll him had no idea what they're talking about.

People with strong opinions often get a fair amount of hatred. I think the man is pretty thick-skinned by now. You should have seen the hatred the Other M thing generated.

I know what you mean but there's having a strong opinion and then there's just being an asshole. Bob doesn't seem to be able to differentiate between the two.

I keep hearing mentions of all this Other M stuff. Was it really that bad?

Metroid has a rabid fanbase. More importantly, I think the line on whether Jim has a strong opinion or is just being an asshole is whether or not you agree with him. I think the fact that you're on the other side may be a factor.

Sylocat:
You know how I think BioWare should salvage the situation? They should add in the new ending via DLC, but they should accompany it with a press release stating something along the lines of this (even if it's false):

"We are adding the ending back in that we wanted to do in the first place. The only reason we cut it is because EA forced us to, and incidentally, the reason they forced us to is because it didn't go over well with test audiences. So basically this whole fan campaign was just trying to get us to undo a change that the audience themselves demanded in the first place. And look, we're not SAYING that the consumer base are a bunch of morons who don't know what they want, but..."

This way they can put a better ending in, while preemptively crippling any further whining by damaging the base credibility of the "retake" concept. This is how they can avoid setting that horrible precedent.

Why would they lie and throw EA under the bus if that didn't happen?

J.d. Scott:

Sylocat:
You know how I think BioWare should salvage the situation? They should add in the new ending via DLC, but they should accompany it with a press release stating something along the lines of this (even if it's false):

"We are adding the ending back in that we wanted to do in the first place. The only reason we cut it is because EA forced us to, and incidentally, the reason they forced us to is because it didn't go over well with test audiences. So basically this whole fan campaign was just trying to get us to undo a change that the audience themselves demanded in the first place. And look, we're not SAYING that the consumer base are a bunch of morons who don't know what they want, but..."

This way they can put a better ending in, while preemptively crippling any further whining by damaging the base credibility of the "retake" concept. This is how they can avoid setting that horrible precedent.

Why would they lie and throw EA under the bus if that didn't happen?

That's why I said "along the lines of." If not EA, pin it on some other marketing entity.

Sylocat:

J.d. Scott:

Sylocat:
You know how I think BioWare should salvage the situation? They should add in the new ending via DLC, but they should accompany it with a press release stating something along the lines of this (even if it's false):

"We are adding the ending back in that we wanted to do in the first place. The only reason we cut it is because EA forced us to, and incidentally, the reason they forced us to is because it didn't go over well with test audiences. So basically this whole fan campaign was just trying to get us to undo a change that the audience themselves demanded in the first place. And look, we're not SAYING that the consumer base are a bunch of morons who don't know what they want, but..."

This way they can put a better ending in, while preemptively crippling any further whining by damaging the base credibility of the "retake" concept. This is how they can avoid setting that horrible precedent.

Why would they lie and throw EA under the bus if that didn't happen?

That's why I said "along the lines of." If not EA, pin it on some other marketing entity.

Or they could call it the "Retake This! DLC" and it just changes the ending to the staff giving you the finger. It's about equally illogical.

Huh... I think this may be the first time Jim has made a valid point that directly opposes Moviebob's position on an issue, and in this instance I'm going to have to side with Jim.

I'm glad you took the time to look into the matter further, I really am. Thank you for that, and yes, the extremists are extreme, but most of just just want what you said: better than what's there, not really even because we deserve it, but because we feel strongly that the series does.

It's interesting.. after thinking, I've changed my mind on this. Jim's video actually reflects pretty well where I stand.

I think we do need to protect the idea that media (read 'art' if you wish, but some people seem to have a slightly narrow definition of art) should not have to function purely in accordance with what the majority of its viewers want, but I no longer think this is the place to fight that battle, and neither do I think changing ME3s ending would particularly compromise that point provided we continue to uphold it where it matters. So for what it's worth no, Retake Mass Effect isn't going to destroy art. In the short term it may well even improve Mass Effect 3 and I'm down with that, I'd buy it.

However, do a quick search for "Bioware" in gaming media and you'll probably wind up with the distinct impression that a number of very vocal "fans" of the studio are utter shits. A few people clearly do feel a sense of entitlement, they've demonstrated it countless times, and that inevitably influences how any fan complaint directed at Bioware is going to come across. That's certainly what inclined me to disregard the complaints about ME3's ending before I'd even seen the endings myself, it just came across as more senseless bitching from the same people who a couple of weeks ago were protesting that Shepherd had the option to be a gay man.

So yeah, I think Retake Mass Effect are right, but with one important caveat. They're not right because they're "co-creators" who deserve to have their personal story respected. In the grand scheme of things most of us are just consumers, we're basically pigs at the trough with disposable income. If a game deceives us into thinking we're telling a story ourselves, it's nothing more than a good deception. Well played, but anyone who actually seriously believes it is an idiot.

People spend hundreds of hours and millions of dollars crafting the experiences which you and I just passively experience. You can thumbs up the end product, you can thumbs down, you can ask for something different and put money to it and actually make it a good idea, but it's possible to do this and maintain a basic respect for the people who actually create this stuff. Games exist for your entertainment, but the people who make them do not, and as seems to be all too frequent a small minority of Bioware fans actually are just being entitled little shits. Those people need to shut up, the rest of you (us?) have a point.

Nicolaus99:
Gee Jim, taking notes from Bob now in that you have to drag your liberal politics into the episode? You want to talk unwelcome protesters of whatever and you drag out the Tea Party; why not the rapist, public defecating, anarchist infested Occupy movement?

Leave the politics to MSNBC and Fox, Jim. This IS a gaming site last I checked.

So he is unable to compare one extreme hardline movement that is controversial to another. Would he by that standard be unable to say make a joke about religion because that is not game related.

Both the tea party and the occupy movement have caused damage to public property and used inflammatory signs and chants ect. The only difference is one has the support of the capitalist class to further their agenda and the other is a simply trying to protest corporate injustice while being beaten, kettled and arrested by police for expressing their first amendment rights that you americans hold so dear when it suits.

Also calling The occupy movement protesters RAPISTS...that's a new one. I could then call teabaggers racist and a homophobes, well atleast when i say that i can atleast say that there are definately some racist homophobes within the tea party. Stay classy conservative, go watch fox news if you cant be civil and cut the bullshit from your arguments.

I think people have always taken jim way too seriously (no pun intended). Let's face it, he's one of the few people in the gaming media that will stand up and actually tell it like it is, and I can't think of one occasion where I've disagreed with him in the slightest. I love his style, because that is the only way some people (ahem publishers) will ever get it.

Keep it up Jim, because thank god for you.

Thank you Jim for attempting to understand why we were upset. I was disappointed at first by your destructoid comments, but I'm glad to see you looking from our perspective.

Frotality:
wow... jim, the guy who i said tends to address the troll side of issues rather than the serious ones, is the ONE journalist who isnt addressing the obsessive talimancers wish of a happy ending and pulling the "art is GOD' card, and actually adressing what most of our actual concerns are.

major brownie points, jim.

I dont want to sound presumptuous or anything but after the initial few episodes and the occasional trollbait ones thereafter(like vigilios art hole) his episodes tend to have well constructed and solid arguments, even if you don't agree with them. If you haven't watched some of his best episodes like his piracy and used game trilogy's and taking video games seriously i really think your missing out on good stuff and i'd highly recommend them.

Also national kirby day. Because kirby

havent read the thread yet, just wanted to say i appreciate jim not jumping on the 'real art isnt changeable' band wagon many industry journalists are...actually my exact words while watching the episode was 'thank god jim...' so well played mr sterling

Nicolaus99:

J.d. Scott:

Nicolaus99:
Gee Jim, taking notes from Bob now in that you have to drag your liberal politics into the episode? You want to talk unwelcome protesters of whatever and you drag out the Tea Party; why not the rapist, public defecating, anarchist infested Occupy movement?

Leave the politics to MSNBC and Fox, Jim. This IS a gaming site last I checked.

Relax. Deep breath. I don't think he was commenting on the right or wrong of the tea party, just the hard line they take on their stance. I think his position is like a lot of political analysts do that the tea party undermined their viability and threatened their longevity by refusing to compromise on any point in their agenda whatsoever. Some people, even within the Tea Party itself believe they could have a much more powerful effect and prevent being marginalized by understanding the limits of what they can affect at the moment and being reasonable about it and working to get their principles included in more laws instead of just rejecting laws that don't match their principles without even considering editing, and refusing to edit laws they propose with the full knowledge that they will most likely be summarily rejected.

/eyeroll Right or wrong of X political movement is irrelevant. Jim, good liberal that he clearly is, wants a failed group of unrealistic protesters to invoke as a negative comparison to the Retake Mass Effect protesters. But lets take it right from Jim's mouth around 5:20.

"and they need to be reasonable about what they can influence. Looking at the Retake Mass Effect folk while their extremists risk becoming the Tea Party of game culture..."

If you want a failed, unreasonable, extremist protester group, you need look no further than Occupy Whatever. The Tea Party put chosen butts in Congress seats. What have you got for results/influence? Occupy committed vandalism, robbed churches sheltering them and cost their victim cities millions of dollars, all while accomplishing nothing at all. But when Jim needs to invoke a group of failed political extremists, he reaches for the Tea Party because that's just what typical liberals do. I expect that from Libs. My grievance is that he chooses to do so here on The Escapist. A site for video gaming and geek culture. Jims, and Bobs for that matter, politics? Neither. On-Topic. Not asking for much here.

I find that on this website people who call people "good liberals" as an insult exist. You completely ignore the rampant police brutality and complete news blackout (aside from crimes committed) committed against the occupy movement. While also ignoring ANY criticisms of the tea party movement. The rampant bigotry, that they are funded by and take their rhetoric from the capitalist class (the bourgeois if you will).

Face it the REASON the tea party movement is gaining strength is because they are espousing the Neo Liberal values of Reagan and Thatcher which the state and the wealthy allow to because it benefits them. Sure the occupy movement has done some stupid shit, but don't even try to paint the tea party of all things as a movement that is noble and just.

just to double check

is this video COMPLETLY spoiler free? (even in terms of showing footage?) I havtn finished ME3 yet...

Vault101:
just to double check

is this video COMPLETLY spoiler free? (even in terms of showing footage?) I havtn finished ME3 yet...

It is COMPLETELY spoiler free.

Flimsii:

Vault101:
just to double check

is this video COMPLETLY spoiler free? (even in terms of showing footage?) I havtn finished ME3 yet...

It is COMPLETELY spoiler free.

yeah..but theres completley

and then thers COMPLETLEY...you know I-

ok ok I'll shut up and watch the vid..thanks

This video amused me quite a bit. I find the apparent shift in stance on the issue to be hilarious. Kinda makes me wish more people would at least attempt to offer the same level of review into their own take on it. It's good to know people can objectively look at the material and see the valid/salient points though.

DVS BSTrD:
I can see you've thought long and hard on this issue Jim.
Thank-you. There is a difference between art and property and change is not fundamentally good, bad or wrong.

anthony87:
It's actually pretty fucking refreshing for Jim to admit that his initial impressions about the people wanting the ending changed were wrong and that he can even see where they're coming from once he'd LOOKED INTO IT A BIT MORE*

Fair play to you Mr. Sterling.

*Caps'd and bolded on the off chance that Moviebob comes into the thread and gets a clue about the proper attitude to have towards something like this.

He won't. We all know Bob doesn't respect fan outrage unless it's his own.

Oh burn. And yeah I was surprised jim Admitted he hadn't looked into the issue enough. He wasn't admitting he was wrong. And he was right about some of us in the retake movement. And it's refreshing to see another person on the escapist who gets why we're upset and not only doesn't use the 'games are art and can't be changed' but out right puts that to rest with 'art has no rules'. Which it doesn't. I once called him a paid troll....and I was wrong. and I would take that comment back if I could and I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

And no your right bob probably won't comment on this cause unlike Jim, Bob isn't going to look deeper into the issue. Cause he's said his piece and as far as Bob is concerned he's right and everyone else is wrong. Unless it's about Sonic or Mario oh then he cares.

J.d. Scott:

Sylocat:

J.d. Scott:

Why would they lie and throw EA under the bus if that didn't happen?

That's why I said "along the lines of." If not EA, pin it on some other marketing entity.

Or they could call it the "Retake This! DLC" and it just changes the ending to the staff giving you the finger. It's about equally illogical.

That's another thing I'd be tempted to do if I were in BioWare's position, actually.

I stand by what I said about the tea party and if anyone has a problem with it they can go and find another famous event in American history to cheapen the name of.

This video was great- I thought Jim was going to get on the Mass Effect fans for continuing to voice their concerns over ME3's ending but instead he took the time to look at our point of view thus he actually understands. Thanks Jim for not being close minded, I appreciate the fact you looked at the issue outside the box.

Even if you were going to get on the fans, it was still nice seeing you express that art has no rules thus it's very true. Besides, using art as an excuse for an ending of a trilogy is like making an excuse on musical tunes when playing the Star Wars Theme. It may still be a sound that goes with the original music, but it can be a very crappy sound that starts hurting peoples' ears you know. :I

DVS BSTrD:
He won't. We all know Bob doesn't respect fan outrage unless it's his own.

Which is part of why his videos and comments have been so infuriating of late. Considering how hard he rails against stuff he doesn't like, one has to wonder why his disapproval is so outrageous here.

Falseprophet:

Mikeyfell:
Who would have guessed, Jim is right again.

So we have Jim and MovieBob with polar opposite opinions, what ever happened to Extra Consideration?

Considering Shamus Young and Yahtzee also offered somewhat differing opinions on the ME3 ending, that could have been an excellent 4-way Extra Consideration.

Yeah!
Lets Take Back Extra Consideration!

Maybe if we send The Escapist cupcakes they'll restart the column.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here