The Un-Sexy Dating Game

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Halyah:
you

Cecilthedarkknight_234:
and you

Alterego-X:
ET TU

Mathak:
and also you

Anyone else that I missed:
bring thyself hither

Why hello there, like-minded people! Ever had that feeling where you really want to talk to people about crazy shit no one in your immediate vicinity will ever consider? (I mean visual novels) Or just maybe hang out and once in a blue moon receive a PM about how that one visual novel you maybe heard of is getting released? Maybe? No? LOOK NO FURTHER

Long story short, we have a group. Here, on the escapist! And you can partake in the act of joining the group. You can so totally join the group. It's cool, we won't tell anyone. No one will ever have to know.

Alright, that's over with. Time for on-topic rambling.

@Therumancer: You know, you're actually wrong. The focus here isn't fetishistic porn. If it was, it'd get more than a few angry reviews and this article wouldn't exist. I find your comparing it to golden showers and scat porn laughable, at least.

I like to call fetishistic porn "opinion porn". Because if the majority of people would like it, it'd cease to be fetishistic porn, and then normal porn would be fetishistic porn. So by simply putting myself in someone else's shoes, just because most people don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. After all, what one or two people do consensually in the confines of their own room is none of anyone else's business.

For the people who are looking for visual novel recommendations, let me share the optimal title list I put together after being asked for these on VNDB over and over and over again...

-Ever 17: Good starting VN. Solid sci-fi story, highlights the strengths of the medium and is all-ages, not to mention it is a commercially translated title, so you don't have to bother with patches.

-Fate/Stay Night: Superb shounen/seinen story, especially recommended for anime-fans. If you have seen the the anime, still play it. It condensed the story of the VN so much that 90% of the stuff in it is still going to be fresh and, again, it is a really-really great story.

-Yume Miru Kusuri: It's not exactly a title I would normally recommend, but it is most certainly the closest thing we have to Katawa Shoujo in terms of atmosphere and themes.

-Muv-Luv; Muv-Luv Alternative: Technically this is one game cut into three parts; one school-life comedy and two sci-fi mecha parts, and it's GLORIOUS (though depressing as hell). Not a good starting tittle per se (the first part can be especially grating sometimes), but if you are looking for good stuff, look no further.

-Tsukihime: Same as Fate, except for one small detail: this game is old. Don't let it discourage you! It's great, fresh and pretty damn deep, you just have to look past the technical details.

-Steins;Gate: Pretty good contemporary time-travel sci-fi with a great cast and story. Highly recommended even for first VN.

-True Remembrance: Short, relatively simple, freeware VN. In case you are intimidated by the afore-mentioned 50+ hours long VNs. :P

-Eien no Aselia: A hybrid game, TRPG with VN elements. It does the latter part better than the former, but it's still a good choice if you don't want to jump right into the deep end of the text-sea...

-Monmusu Quest: Another approach. If you are actually looking for sexual content and weird fetishes, this is a pretty good VN for that. Some RPG-ish gameplay with a solid story, good characters and lots of monster-girls and femdom (avoidable :P).

-Bible Black: Once again, for the sexually inclined. A relatively solid story and lots and lots of H-content to *cough* relieve the stress of reading so much. :P

Also, www.vndb.org. If you want to keep up with the latest releases and search through translated and other VN, this is pretty much the most comprehensive place you can find
(just don't ask for recommendations, it's kind of a berserk button). Oh, and I'm also there. :P

poiumty:

Halyah:
you

Cecilthedarkknight_234:
and you

Alterego-X:
ET TU

Mathak:
and also you

Anyone else that I missed:
bring thyself hither

What one or two people do consensually in the confines of their own room is none of anyone else's business.

Or one person, or three people. Or two people and dining equipment. But im getting off topic here.

OT: I didnt really find it fetishist porn. . And if I had downloaded it for it, I think it would be even harder using this for getting off than Fate Stay Night. (Hint, 200 hours game, 10 minutes scenes -in total-) I dont consider stuff. . porno. If the actual pornography is a very small part to the rest of the experience. I mean in many Visual Novels I think they sort of end up as cutscenes rather than, well... Game. Its not like they are interactive (Those I know of anyway, I really am not an expert on this subject)

Katawa Shoujo is the single greatest story experience I have been through in years.

Haven't read the article yet, just felt the need to say that.

Nikolaz72:

OT: I didnt really find it fetishist porn. . And if I had downloaded it for it, I think it would be even harder using this for getting off than Fate Stay Night. (Hint, 200 hours game, 10 minutes scenes -in total-) I dont consider stuff. . porno. If the actual pornography is a very small part to the rest of the experience. I mean in many Visual Novels I think they sort of end up as cutscenes rather than, well... Game. Its not like they are interactive (Those I know of anyway, I really am not an expert on this subject)

Unless you picked out one that is specifically wank material (the correct term is "nukige"), playing a visual novel for the sex scenes is like watching Black Swan for lesbian porn.

It may in fact have lesbian porn, it might actually be kinda hot, but in the end it'll be a tiny fraction of an otherwise amazing, engrossing story that'll be leagues above what you went in expecting.

I really love this game. All the characters feel real and it actually subverts a lot of tropes that the genre is known for. It was interesting, fun, emotional, and particularly unpredictable.

I guess that's all I have to say for this.

Abedeus:

kickyourass:
Honestly this game sounds great I had some misgivings at first but after reading a few things about it I changed my mind. Literally the only reason I didn't downloaded this game a long while ago is that I share a computer with a number of female family members and I do NOT want to have the conversation that would result in them walking in at precisely the wrong moment.

There is an option of turning the adult content off.

But frankly, there were maybe 2 or 3 scenes like that in Lilly's "route", don't know about others, I'm at act 2 (out of 4) of Rin.

And the game still surprises me with maturity. You'd think that an armless girl would make for some weird scenes, the main hero trying foolishly to feed her or something like that. But honestly? Disability doesn't define her as a character. Just like a hair color or skin doesn't make you special or worse.

In that case I'm downloading it right now.

kickyourass:

Abedeus:

kickyourass:
Honestly this game sounds great I had some misgivings at first but after reading a few things about it I changed my mind. Literally the only reason I didn't downloaded this game a long while ago is that I share a computer with a number of female family members and I do NOT want to have the conversation that would result in them walking in at precisely the wrong moment.

There is an option of turning the adult content off.

But frankly, there were maybe 2 or 3 scenes like that in Lilly's "route", don't know about others, I'm at act 2 (out of 4) of Rin.

And the game still surprises me with maturity. You'd think that an armless girl would make for some weird scenes, the main hero trying foolishly to feed her or something like that. But honestly? Disability doesn't define her as a character. Just like a hair color or skin doesn't make you special or worse.

In that case I'm downloading it right now.

Yeah it's a very interesting game. Sucked me in for 9 hours total, and I think I'll try Shizune route too (deaf/mute girl). Just finished the "no-arms girl", she had a whopping one sex scene and another "intimate" before that (but only one person is naked in that scene).

Everything without once mentioning her disability. No "he looked at her stubs and found them strangely erotic" or "Thanks to her blindness, he was able to jerk off in front of her without being slapped in the face, har har har". The only thing the disabilities affect are the characters' quirks and details - the blind girl enjoys reading books in Braille, the girl without arms is a foot-painter and the burn victim is shy and withdrawn after the incident, befriending the blind girl, who was unable to judge her based on looks and didn't patronize or like her out of pity.

As someone said in the first thread about Katawari Shoujo - it's not a game about porn fetishes, but growing to get past one's problems and learning to understand the differences that make us unique without disrespecting anyone, either by being rude about an issue or too condescending.

Grey Day for Elcia:
Bland, cliche, generic, predictable, shallow -- these are all words that spring to mind. You have to be an alien not to see every event coming a mile and a half away. The characters almost go out of their way to tick every box on the Japanese character type dejour list and while deformed in some way, every one of them is otherwise 'perfect'--in that creepy dollhouse way. Just in case it wasn't clear enough that this was a video game designed for lonely men, they're all fully prepared and able to whore themselves to whoever clicks the 'be nice, not a cunt' button the most.

Erasing some arms and throwing hot water on your characters doesn't make you creative, it doesn't make your work original and it does nothing to draw the intelligent viewers' eyes from the painfully mundane story. It's difficult to take your efforts in character depth and development seriously (as already laughable as they are) when the words are being squealed and chirped out of a schoolgirl with either massively oversize breasts--not unlike those you would expect to see on a radiation poisoned stripper--or a flat chest seemingly designed in just enough of a sexual fashion to get the paedophiles excited.

Yea and the fact that the pic for the article (one of the characters I presume?) has MASSIVE tits bulging out of her shirt. The Un-Sexy Dating Game? Sigh.....

edit: Unless you're a fan of the asian virtual dating novels, from an outside perspective this game doesn't look all that appealing. Its trying to be different and meaningful because they throw in the fact that everyone you date is a cripple. Yes they're portrayed as "real people" as is everyone in these games, but the end goal is to fall in love (and sleep with them) so the artistic cop-out turns into a fetish. And the characters of the game look about as real as hentai characters, with the occasional one missing a limb or blind. The manga art style doesn't do the concept of them being real people with disabilities justice at all.

But everything I said will be overlooked because "I just don't get it".

again edit: Also, "flawed and troubled characters" are just as cliche as one-sided characters. Because why? because everything is cliche. Troubled angsty teens aren't any more believable and deep than average boring adults.

Loop Stricken:

Therumancer:
The point isn't so much that this product in paticular is especially obscene, but the trend it's trying to start. Nobody is saying it's out to mind control the mainstream into becoming interested in this kind of thing, so much as it is to establish a prescence for this kind of thing to be accepted so it can creep into the mainstream.

What, you mean... tolerance? That disabled people are just people?
God that's a terrifying thought.

No, the idea of seeing disabled people as sex objects with their deformities. As I said, this kind of thing starts slowly, gradually, and tastefully, and balloons. If this starts to catch on, wait until you see where it is in 10 years.

Abedeus:
[

I'm sure people will be marrying animals if we allow gay people get married, too.

Just wait 20 years! Mark my words, this is bound to happen! It's an unnatural fetish, you allow this, you allow everything! And one day, people will be marrying inanimate carbon rods!

I think you are REALLY oversimplifying the game and issues it rises. To be honest, I've been playing the game for almost 3 hours now, and the most sexual scene I've encountered was the blind girl touching protagonist's face in a non-aggressive and non-sexual way. And holding his wrist to walk around the shop.

HUMAN SOCIETY AS WE KNOW IT WILL COLLAPSE!! THE END IS NIGH!! IT WON'T STOP TILL EVERYONE WILL MARRY EVERYTHING AT BIRTH!

As clever as you think you are, absurdities don't make a point since we're talking about fetishes and bringing them into more mainstream acceptance, than any kind of affront to a moral or legal code.

See, your "sarcasm" is especially foolish when you consider that you can already marry disabled people or have sex with them, assuming that both partners are of the age of consent, that makes what your saying especially idiotic.

This is entirely about very slowly trying to gain acceptance for a specific type of pornography. The issue here as I see it is not someone actually having a relationship with someone who is disabled, but the abillity to easily obtain say amputee porn or something of the sort which raises all kinds of questions.

Like most in this thread "attack fanboy" mode has caused people to act entirely out of context to what I've actually said.

However, the most depressing thing about all of this is that your absurdity doesn't even hold up. I mean we already have people marrying video game characters:

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-12-16/world/japan.virtual.wedding_1_virtual-world-sal-marry?_s=PM:WORLD

Oh yes and people marrying animals has already happened too

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-man-marries-dog,0,210566.story

I could get even more bizzare with this, but this should make my point. The simple fact is that the whole exagerrated "where will it end" poise doesn't really work anymore. Where will we be in 20 years... well, that is a pretty good question to be honest. That kind of bonding has little to do with attempting to slowly increase the prescence of specialized forms of fetish pornography.

Alterego-X:

Therumancer:

The point isn't so much that this product in paticular is especially obscene, but the trend it's trying to start. Nobody is saying it's out to mind control the mainstream into becoming interested in this kind of thing, so much as it is to establish a prescence for this kind of thing to be accepted so it can creep into the mainstream.

The problem is, that "This kind of thing" is not actually in the game. You read something a game's premise, and you ASSUME that it's fetishistic (even if very softcore). We, on the other hand, read the actual game, and believe that the disabilities are not played fetishistically in any way, they are just present, as you would expect disabled people to appear in any piece of realistic fiction. The plot doesn't put ANY emphasis on disabilities. Not just little bit of focus, but NONE. It's categorically opposed to the concept of fetishizing disabilities.

Therumancer:

Also trying to declare anything someone says that you don't like is a "conspiricy" is ridiculous, and tempts me to just ignore what that person has to say. Especially when your talking about things like marketing, or a small group of people trying to break through with niche products, or promote certain alternative lifestyles. In general a real "conspiricy theory" has to operate on a much higher level and wouldn't have such a transparent motive.

A real conspiricy theory is more along the lines of saying that efforts are being made to cover up Princess Di's death and the specific details thereof. It by definition grows to include thousands of people but can be usually traced back to a handfull of ringleaders, and typically involves more questions than answers, such as why someone would bother to begin with. It's just like alien cover up conspiricies, any justification from "public panic" or whatever is ultimatly pretty weak.

No, that's just the common pop-cultural stereotype of conspiracies. By definition, any two or more people conspiring (making a secret plan) together, is a conspiracy.

And you theorize, that in this case, there were a dozen "ringleaders", the developers, who deluded thousands of fans on their website, and tens of thousands of readers, into thinking that they are reading a heartwarming romance story that's protagonists happen to be disabled, that while they were secretly disability fetishists, who wanted to spread their fetish. And none of the readers realized this "transparent motive", but you did just by looking at it's premise.

No, quite to the contrary I looked at the game, how it's presented, and compared it to other fetishes that have gradually been introduced into prominance the same way over a period of years, to the point where they became readily availible with other kinds of porn. While this DOES mean there is intent on the part of the creators, it applies to the consumers less directly, rather than a conspiricy to convince them to all get involved in fetish porn, this step is to obtain some acceptance for the basic idea, which is working on you for example. That way when more hardcore stuff is introduced people can say "hey, it's the same thing".

What's more, due to being in "attack fanboy mode" you are apparently missing the point when I mentioned "ultra soft core" (which I have in several messages on the subject now). That means that I understand EXACTLY what the product is, I never said it was in of itself a work of hardcore porno. Rather my entire arguement is that it's the tiny grain of snow that turns into a rolling avalanche.

Interestingly, I've mostly said "this is the way it is" where people seem to assume I'm making some kind of judgements here beyond the fact that I personally find it disturbing. Technically nothing involved in this is even illegal assuming everyone involved is of the age of consent. The end result is simply trying to make a kind of fetish material more obtainable in the long run.

Ihniwid:

Therumancer:
This has been mentioned for a while, and really on a lot of levels it reminds me of Edward Lee's "The Teratologist" which is pretty much a gross story about this rich guy having sex with deformed people, or forcing other people to do the same. There is a plotline behind this, having to do with the guy setting out to offend god enough in order to force him to come down to earth, but that's really besides the point here.

In this case however the visual novel isn't trying to be gross about it, it seems mostly to try and legitmize a specific fetish, casting it in the light of a pretty much "by the numbers" romance where the deformed or crippled girls are all cute (allowing for the stylized artwork), and the plotline by all accounts seems to reek of normality for the sake of trying to sell the subject matter.

On some levels it seemed like "Children Of a Lesser God" when I first heard about it, until I realized the extent of some of the "problems" involved for some of the characters.

I'll be blunt, other than being a bit creepy, I can't say I see anything especially wrong with this, however I *DO* suspect that we're going to see this snowball into some incredibly depraved stuff. Whenever a taboo/fetish starts to appear on the market for the first time, it's done slowly to see normal and as natural and positive as possible, and then starts to increasingly go off the deep end as the mask slips. The general acceptance of this work is probably going to start a snowball rolling where within a decade we're going to see manga/hentai/etc... that makes the descriptions in the above Edward Lee story seem tame in comparison. By all accounts there isn't much graphic sex in this graphic novel, but how long is it going to take before we start seeing how people can use specific deformities sexually or find was to force themselves on those deformities...

Don't get me wrong, this fetish isn't "new", really very little is, it's just new that it's trying to force it's way into the mainstream. Having sex with freaks and such (sex dwarves being the stereotype) being one of the big "harem stories" about decadent kings, nobles, and rich merchants.

You make a good point in regards to the disabled young women drawn in a sexualized manner, but from the little research I've done on this form of storytelling, the art work tends to generate that sort of aesthetic. Not that that makes it okay in its own right, but at least its coming from a stream of art appeal.

The rest of your post is so crazy and warped that I had to read it twice just to make sure I didn't imagine it all. If you're serious about half of this stuff you may need to see a therapist. Or if you are seeing one, well, get back on the meds.

Nah, it's more of an affront to people who gravitate towards the left wing of the political spectrum, usually those who are fairly young. It's more a matter of me speaking from experience, having seen this kind of thing happen in the past. It just happens to contridict what a lot of people want to believe, especially those who hold to differant ideals.

If your at all curious, pick a fetish like say bondage or BDSM, or scat and/or golden showers, or whatever as long as it's a fairly common nowadays, whether you like or not, and look at it's status say 30 years ago before you could find it nearly anywhere, and see how it started out in looking for media acceptance (at least on the porn circuit), and you'll see definate patterns. For bondage and BDSM (which could probably be considered my "kink") for example you can define it's state in the media as pretty much pre and post Bettie Page as far as prescence in the media.

Therumancer:

Abedeus:
[

I'm sure people will be marrying animals if we allow gay people get married, too.

Just wait 20 years! Mark my words, this is bound to happen! It's an unnatural fetish, you allow this, you allow everything! And one day, people will be marrying inanimate carbon rods!

I think you are REALLY oversimplifying the game and issues it rises. To be honest, I've been playing the game for almost 3 hours now, and the most sexual scene I've encountered was the blind girl touching protagonist's face in a non-aggressive and non-sexual way. And holding his wrist to walk around the shop.

HUMAN SOCIETY AS WE KNOW IT WILL COLLAPSE!! THE END IS NIGH!! IT WON'T STOP TILL EVERYONE WILL MARRY EVERYTHING AT BIRTH!

As clever as you think you are, absurdities don't make a point since we're talking about fetishes and bringing them into more mainstream acceptance, than any kind of affront to a moral or legal code.

See, your "sarcasm" is especially foolish when you consider that you can already marry disabled people or have sex with them, assuming that both partners are of the age of consent, that makes what your saying especially idiotic.

This is entirely about very slowly trying to gain acceptance for a specific type of pornography. The issue here as I see it is not someone actually having a relationship with someone who is disabled, but the abillity to easily obtain say amputee porn or something of the sort which raises all kinds of questions.

Like most in this thread "attack fanboy" mode has caused people to act entirely out of context to what I've actually said.

However, the most depressing thing about all of this is that your absurdity doesn't even hold up. I mean we already have people marrying video game characters:

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-12-16/world/japan.virtual.wedding_1_virtual-world-sal-marry?_s=PM:WORLD

Oh yes and people marrying animals has already happened too

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-man-marries-dog,0,210566.story

I could get even more bizzare with this, but this should make my point. The simple fact is that the whole exagerrated "where will it end" poise doesn't really work anymore. Where will we be in 20 years... well, that is a pretty good question to be honest. That kind of bonding has little to do with attempting to slowly increase the prescence of specialized forms of fetish pornography.

Quick question - did you play the actual damn game, or are you just some random Fox News fan raging at games that show bikini zones?

Don Savik:

Yea and the fact that the pic for the article (one of the characters I presume?) has MASSIVE tits bulging out of her shirt. The Un-Sexy Dating Game? Sigh.....

edit: Unless you're a fan of the asian virtual dating novels, from an outside perspective this game doesn't look all that appealing. Its trying to be different and meaningful because they throw in the fact that everyone you date is a cripple. Yes they're portrayed as "real people" as is everyone in these games, but the end goal is to fall in love (and sleep with them) so the artistic cop-out turns into a fetish. And the characters of the game look about as real as hentai characters, with the occasional one missing a limb or blind. The manga art style doesn't do the concept of them being real people with disabilities justice at all.

But everything I said will be overlooked because "I just don't get it".

again edit: Also, "flawed and troubled characters" are just as cliche as one-sided characters. Because why? because everything is cliche. Troubled angsty teens aren't any more believable and deep than average boring adults.

The inherent, glaring flaw of your argument presents itself in the fact that you make big assumptions about the game you haven't actually played. That much is evident.
If hitting a nail on the head is equivalent to 'getting it' completely, then you've just hit a screw. On the sharp end, opposite to the head. In Azerbaijan. Last Tuesday.
One should not attempt to bring themselves to criticise a point that makes assertions so grossly out of tune with what has been said in the thread already, countlessly assured and reassured, talked about with knowledge and good examples in hand. Especially considering your point is self-admittedly uninformed. You were right all along! Nobody will argue with you logically, as you do not, as you said, "get it".

The picture used by the article is fan-art, by the way. I don't think the boobs displayed are that humongous, either.

Good article, but I have to disagree with the "un-sexy sex scenes" argument (something like that...). They are sexy (at least in m twisted mind), but not in the upfront way most eroge are. Instead of "I'm gonna bang you because I'm so damn horny", they're more "I'm going to make love to you, because I love you". And that is sexy in its own way...

Takurumotou:

Don Savik:

Yea and the fact that the pic for the article (one of the characters I presume?) has MASSIVE tits bulging out of her shirt. The Un-Sexy Dating Game? Sigh.....

edit: Unless you're a fan of the asian virtual dating novels, from an outside perspective this game doesn't look all that appealing. Its trying to be different and meaningful because they throw in the fact that everyone you date is a cripple. Yes they're portrayed as "real people" as is everyone in these games, but the end goal is to fall in love (and sleep with them) so the artistic cop-out turns into a fetish. And the characters of the game look about as real as hentai characters, with the occasional one missing a limb or blind. The manga art style doesn't do the concept of them being real people with disabilities justice at all.

But everything I said will be overlooked because "I just don't get it".

again edit: Also, "flawed and troubled characters" are just as cliche as one-sided characters. Because why? because everything is cliche. Troubled angsty teens aren't any more believable and deep than average boring adults.

The inherent, glaring flaw of your argument presents itself in the fact that you make big assumptions about the game you haven't actually played. That much is evident.
If hitting a nail on the head is equivalent to 'getting it' completely, then you've just hit a screw. On the sharp end, opposite to the head. In Azerbaijan. Last Tuesday.
One should not attempt to bring themselves to criticise a point that makes assertions so grossly out of tune with what has been said in the thread already, countlessly assured and reassured, talked about with knowledge and good examples in hand. Especially considering your point is self-admittedly uninformed. You were right all along! Nobody will argue with you logically, as you do not, as you said, "get it".

The picture used by the article is fan-art, by the way. I don't think the boobs displayed are that humongous, either.

Its nice to start yourself off on the escapist by belittling people that have different preferences than you. People will definitely respect you for that. First of all you need to explain what you think "my argument" is, because I just listed a bunch of my thoughts on the game, I never specified a certain position to defend. I said characters aren't deep because you make them troubled (general statement about writing characters, doesn't require a full playthrough to acknowledge). I said the game looks like any other VN, and the art style and concept doesn't differentiate it from the rest of the genre like people say it does (also, a statement about the appearance, not anything in the game, also not requiring a playthrough). Can I not have an opinion on a game without playing through it? Can I not disagree with what you think about the game?

The thing about the "I just don't get it" is because fans of certain genres aren't accepting of other opinions (like yourself) and like to dismiss arguments that don't agree with them. I get the game, I see why people like it, I'm just don't like it myself. People on this site have a hard time agreeing to disagree though, so continue to respond if it makes you feel superior.

Abedeus:

Quick question - did you play the actual damn game, or are you just some random Fox News fan raging at games that show bikini zones?

Quick Question - are you seriously trying to contribute to this discussion, or just troll.

All the criticism aimed towards Eroge could be pushed aside onto the games dubbed Yarige.

Western Media is still locked in the medieval proto-christian mindset that seeing a vagina will scar you, where as a people being executed in all sorts of manner is a-ok. Sexuality? A THING OF THE DEVIL!

Therumancer:

Abedeus:

Quick question - did you play the actual damn game, or are you just some random Fox News fan raging at games that show bikini zones?

Quick Question - are you seriously trying to contribute to this discussion, or just troll.

Reading your posts in this thread, I have to assume you are the latter.

I like how you didn't confirm that you had played the game itself.

Therumancer:

Ihniwid:

Therumancer:
This has been mentioned for a while, and really on a lot of levels it reminds me of Edward Lee's "The Teratologist" which is pretty much a gross story about this rich guy having sex with deformed people, or forcing other people to do the same. There is a plotline behind this, having to do with the guy setting out to offend god enough in order to force him to come down to earth, but that's really besides the point here.

In this case however the visual novel isn't trying to be gross about it, it seems mostly to try and legitmize a specific fetish, casting it in the light of a pretty much "by the numbers" romance where the deformed or crippled girls are all cute (allowing for the stylized artwork), and the plotline by all accounts seems to reek of normality for the sake of trying to sell the subject matter.

On some levels it seemed like "Children Of a Lesser God" when I first heard about it, until I realized the extent of some of the "problems" involved for some of the characters.

I'll be blunt, other than being a bit creepy, I can't say I see anything especially wrong with this, however I *DO* suspect that we're going to see this snowball into some incredibly depraved stuff. Whenever a taboo/fetish starts to appear on the market for the first time, it's done slowly to see normal and as natural and positive as possible, and then starts to increasingly go off the deep end as the mask slips. The general acceptance of this work is probably going to start a snowball rolling where within a decade we're going to see manga/hentai/etc... that makes the descriptions in the above Edward Lee story seem tame in comparison. By all accounts there isn't much graphic sex in this graphic novel, but how long is it going to take before we start seeing how people can use specific deformities sexually or find was to force themselves on those deformities...

Don't get me wrong, this fetish isn't "new", really very little is, it's just new that it's trying to force it's way into the mainstream. Having sex with freaks and such (sex dwarves being the stereotype) being one of the big "harem stories" about decadent kings, nobles, and rich merchants.

You make a good point in regards to the disabled young women drawn in a sexualized manner, but from the little research I've done on this form of storytelling, the art work tends to generate that sort of aesthetic. Not that that makes it okay in its own right, but at least its coming from a stream of art appeal.

The rest of your post is so crazy and warped that I had to read it twice just to make sure I didn't imagine it all. If you're serious about half of this stuff you may need to see a therapist. Or if you are seeing one, well, get back on the meds.

Nah, it's more of an affront to people who gravitate towards the left wing of the political spectrum, usually those who are fairly young. It's more a matter of me speaking from experience, having seen this kind of thing happen in the past. It just happens to contridict what a lot of people want to believe, especially those who hold to differant ideals.

If your at all curious, pick a fetish like say bondage or BDSM, or scat and/or golden showers, or whatever as long as it's a fairly common nowadays, whether you like or not, and look at it's status say 30 years ago before you could find it nearly anywhere, and see how it started out in looking for media acceptance (at least on the porn circuit), and you'll see definate patterns. For bondage and BDSM (which could probably be considered my "kink") for example you can define it's state in the media as pretty much pre and post Bettie Page as far as prescence in the media.

I generally try avoid the use of the term "snowball effect" as it's fairly difficult to prove one way or another. I agree with you on one level Therumancer, very little of this stuff is "new" or scathingly offensive. My problems with the graphic novel at hand are more on a technical standpoint than a content standpoint (my original reason for posting in this thread was under the argument that the game was poorly written).

Where I disagree with you, mainly, is your view that this type of game will generate a fetishistic trend in popular media. If that is what you're arguing, I may be wrong... I really don't think this game does anything well enough to create any sort of trend. Of course you could argue that this game is simply a part of a larger public appeal - an appeal where the fetishized has grown in popularity due to other trends in the media - but that becomes a difficult argument to prove as well.

In the end, I think this graphic novel was founded on a contrived conceit and executed just about as well as you can assume a public project would be (which means some aspects are decently realized, other aspects not so much). The title article pushes the idea that the game is "not what you think it is" so hard that it generally comes off as pandering to its readership. But the article did get me to play the game. Which is a good thing, no matter how you slice it.

Therumancer:
due to being in "attack fanboy mode" you are apparently missing the point when I mentioned "ultra soft core" (which I have in several messages on the subject now). That means that I understand EXACTLY what the product is, I never said it was in of itself a work of hardcore porno.

Except the part where I directly addressed this:

Alterego-X:
You read something a game's premise, and you ASSUME that it's fetishistic (even if very softcore). We, on the other hand, read the actual game, and believe that the disabilities are not played fetishistically in any way.

I'm not denying that the game is softcore porno. I wouldn't even be ashamed of admitting if it was hardcore porno. What I'm denying, is that it's softcore FETISHISM.

You are just using the logical fallacy known as bulverism: pretending that you are right by skipping the entire step of actually *proving* that you are right, and instantly starting with psychoanalyzing your opponents and why are they staying on the "obviously wrong" side.

Let's start this at the beginning: Do you at least believe that it's *possible* to portray disabled people having sex, without the intent of fetishizing the disabilities? If yes, what did Katawa Shoujo do that makes you place it outside of this category?

Alterego-X:

Therumancer:
due to being in "attack fanboy mode" you are apparently missing the point when I mentioned "ultra soft core" (which I have in several messages on the subject now). That means that I understand EXACTLY what the product is, I never said it was in of itself a work of hardcore porno.

Except the part where I directly addressed this:

Alterego-X:
You read something a game's premise, and you ASSUME that it's fetishistic (even if very softcore). We, on the other hand, read the actual game, and believe that the disabilities are not played fetishistically in any way.

I'm not denying that the game is softcore porno. I wouldn't even be ashamed of admitting if it was hardcore porno. What I'm denying, is that it's softcore FETISHISM.

You are just using the logical fallacy known as bulverism: pretending that you are right by skipping the entire step of actually *proving* that you are right, and instantly starting with psychoanalyzing your opponents and why are they staying on the "obviously wrong" side.

Let's start this at the beginning: Do you at least believe that it's *possible* to portray disabled people having sex, without the intent of fetishizing the disabilities? If yes, what did Katawa Shoujo do that makes you place it outside of this category?

Not even remotely where I'm coming from, because I haven't really analyzed anyone.

By definition the only real point to a product like this is to have disabled people put into sexual or romantic positions, that is after all the entire premise, the entire selling point, and what defines this product apart from other romantically themed VGNs. By definition the entire thing works on the premise of fetishizing the disabled since romance with such people is presented as the point of the entire work.

Now, you could make a better defense if there was *A* disabled girl in the context of an otherwise more normal VGN, or if the disabillities were not being presented as the entire focus of the story and what makes it differant.

There is a distinct intent in focus when a product is about romance/sex with the disabled, and a product where something like that might just potentially figure into it.

It's why for example you can't point a finger at say Nightwing having his thing with Oracle (which has hardly been platonic) in the Batman titles. While that happens in the scope of the comics, it's not presented as a major selling point with "watch this guy do this disabled chick", where the VGN we're talking about is pretty much a situation where the whole point is specifically to pursue a romance with one of a number of differant girls with various disabillities, with that being the end all and do all of the premise.

Hisshiss:
This actually looks really interesting, unfortunately attempting to launch the game is giving me all kinds of crashes and errors v.v. Ile have to take a stab at fixing that another time.

Really?

Well I gotta ask where you downloaded it from, since the game was made to run for PC and Mac

Marik2:

Hisshiss:
This actually looks really interesting, unfortunately attempting to launch the game is giving me all kinds of crashes and errors v.v. Ile have to take a stab at fixing that another time.

Really?

Well I gotta ask where you downloaded it from, since the game was made to run for PC and Mac

I followed the link to the blog on this article, and one of the most recent posts had a link to the download right on it.

Hisshiss:

Marik2:

Hisshiss:
This actually looks really interesting, unfortunately attempting to launch the game is giving me all kinds of crashes and errors v.v. Ile have to take a stab at fixing that another time.

Really?

Well I gotta ask where you downloaded it from, since the game was made to run for PC and Mac

I followed the link to the blog on this article, and one of the most recent posts had a link to the download right on it.

*checks*

Wow I didn't know there was an HD re release....

Must be why its not working for you, might have some bugs.

Hold on

Hisshiss:

Marik2:

Hisshiss:
This actually looks really interesting, unfortunately attempting to launch the game is giving me all kinds of crashes and errors v.v. Ile have to take a stab at fixing that another time.

Really?

Well I gotta ask where you downloaded it from, since the game was made to run for PC and Mac

I followed the link to the blog on this article, and one of the most recent posts had a link to the download right on it.

Marik2:

Hisshiss:

Marik2:

Really?

Well I gotta ask where you downloaded it from, since the game was made to run for PC and Mac

I followed the link to the blog on this article, and one of the most recent posts had a link to the download right on it.

*checks*

Wow I didn't know there was an HD re release....

Must be why its not working for you, might have some bugs.

Hold on

It doesn't work because the "HD" release is a an april fools joke. You have to get trough the regular download section.

Therumancer:

By definition the only real point to a product like this is to have disabled people put into sexual or romantic positions, that is after all the entire premise, the entire selling point, and what defines this product apart from other romantically themed VGNs. By definition the entire thing works on the premise of fetishizing the disabled since romance with such people is presented as the point of the entire work.

By that same logic, every romantic story premise ever is sexual fetish-pandering. "The 50 first dates" is for mental disability fetishists, "Kate & Leopold" is for 19th century fetishists, "The 40-Year-Old Virgin" is for virginity fetishists, "Pretty Woman" is for prostitution fetishists, etc.

Basically, you entirely ignore the more typical attitude of "whoa, that sounds like an interesting storyline starting idea to spice up the typical boy-meets-girl plot", in favor of "yeah, I'm going to be fapping to this theme".

You earlier described Katawa Shoujo as if it would intentionally have a long slice-of-life plot solely for the sake of dissolving the fetish content in it, but in fact, it's typical for many high quality VNs, to have a long, elaborate plot. Katawa Shoujo isn't doing anything extraordinary in that regard, it was always evident ever since it was announced to be a full-lenght novel, that it will focus on many themes and situations in it's content.

For example "G-senjou no Maou" is a rather elaborate crime mystery with major yakuza themes. And it's still an eroge, with routes clasified based on female love interests.

Or there is Fate/stay night, a fantasy action adventure, where the spirits of mythological heroes are fighting for the Holy Grail. And it's also an eroge, with one of the heroic spirits being a main love interest.

By your logic, G-senjou no Maou should have a "yakuza fetish", and Fate/stay night a "mythology fetish", just because they are eroge with certain themes, and this should automatically mean that the premises themselves are always erotic.

Therumancer:

Now, you could make a better defense if there was *A* disabled girl in the context of an otherwise more normal VGN, or if the disabillities were not being presented as the entire focus of the story and what makes it differant.

Wouldn't that be even more objectifying? Like, if there are various girls, one "childhood friend", one "tomboy", one "older woman", that *are* really a bit fetishizing, plus one "disabled girl", wouldn't that just blatantly treat the disability as the character's specal "selling point"?

Evilsanta:

Hisshiss:

Marik2:

Really?

Well I gotta ask where you downloaded it from, since the game was made to run for PC and Mac

I followed the link to the blog on this article, and one of the most recent posts had a link to the download right on it.

Marik2:

Hisshiss:

I followed the link to the blog on this article, and one of the most recent posts had a link to the download right on it.

*checks*

Wow I didn't know there was an HD re release....

Must be why its not working for you, might have some bugs.

Hold on

It doesn't work because the "HD" release is a an april fools joke. You have to get trough the regular download section.

...Herp derp xD. Ynow I did find the comment about how they removed all questionable content strange considering its coined as an eroge.

Hisshiss:

...Herp derp xD. Ynow I did find the comment about how they removed all questionable content strange considering its coined as an eroge.

Actually, that wasn't all that strange, many professional eroge are getting clean versions, or anime TV show adaptations.

There are also a number of clean Visual Novels getting eroge versions.

The whole "eroge" thing is more like a handful of still pictures scattered around the middle of the plot, than any significant part of the genre.

Alterego-X:

Hisshiss:

...Herp derp xD. Ynow I did find the comment about how they removed all questionable content strange considering its coined as an eroge.

Actually, that wasn't all that strange, many professional eroge are getting clean versions, or anime TV show adaptations.

There are also a number of clean Visual Novels getting eroge versions.

The whole "eroge" thing is more like a handful of still pictures scattered around the middle of the plot, than any significant part of the genre.

Fair enough, regardless I'm glad the problem was atleast intended, as I don't really possess..how do you say, technical skills. So my ability to remedy any actual error is limited <_>.

Alterego-X:

Therumancer:

By definition the only real point to a product like this is to have disabled people put into sexual or romantic positions, that is after all the entire premise, the entire selling point, and what defines this product apart from other romantically themed VGNs. By definition the entire thing works on the premise of fetishizing the disabled since romance with such people is presented as the point of the entire work.

By that same logic, every romantic story premise ever is sexual fetish-pandering. "The 50 first dates" is for mental disability fetishists, "Kate & Leopold" is for 19th century fetishists, "The 40-Year-Old Virgin" is for virginity fetishists, "Pretty Woman" is for prostitution fetishists, etc.

Basically, you entirely ignore the more typical attitude of "whoa, that sounds like an interesting storyline starting idea to spice up the typical boy-meets-girl plot", in favor of "yeah, I'm going to be fapping to this theme".

You earlier described Katawa Shoujo as if it would intentionally have a long slice-of-life plot solely for the sake of dissolving the fetish content in it, but in fact, it's typical for many high quality VNs, to have a long, elaborate plot. Katawa Shoujo isn't doing anything extraordinary in that regard, it was always evident ever since it was announced to be a full-lenght novel, that it will focus on many themes and situations in it's content.

For example "G-senjou no Maou" is a rather elaborate crime mystery with major yakuza themes. And it's still an eroge, with routes clasified based on female love interests.

Or there is Fate/stay night, a fantasy action adventure, where the spirits of mythological heroes are fighting for the Holy Grail. And it's also an eroge, with one of the heroic spirits being a main love interest.

By your logic, G-senjou no Maou should have a "yakuza fetish", and Fate/stay night a "mythology fetish", just because they are eroge with certain themes, and this should automatically mean that the premises themselves are always erotic.

Therumancer:

Now, you could make a better defense if there was *A* disabled girl in the context of an otherwise more normal VGN, or if the disabillities were not being presented as the entire focus of the story and what makes it differant.

Wouldn't that be even more objectifying? Like, if there are various girls, one "childhood friend", one "tomboy", one "older woman", that *are* really a bit fetishizing, plus one "disabled girl", wouldn't that just blatantly treat the disability as the character's specal "selling point"?

Sorry to butt in, but I think you two are reading the word "fetish" differently.

Thrumancer's version of "to fetishize" is more in line with the general idea of "Fetishism." This view of "the fetish" is essentially an obsession or commitment to one specific ideal over all others. In this way, "Pretty Woman" is arguably a film that wholeheartedly commits to the role of prostitution in a romantic relationship.

Alterego's version of the same term seems to be inherently sexualized, as you put it "I'm going to be fapping to this theme." To make something the object of a sexual fetish is indeed another way to define the word itself. But if you two are going to be commenting back and forth together, it'd be best to know which version of the term you are using. Because as it stands, you are both correct in your argumentation. And, conversely, neither of you are actually disagreeing with one another.

Hope this helps!

I... didn't actually see Pretty Woman (though I saw the other three). With these four examples, I was thinking along the lines of "the theme is discussed, and maybe somehow drives the plot, but it isn't used for sexual stimulation".

I didn't feel that Thrumancer's earlier comments included non-sexualized obsession over a matter.

Evilsanta:

Hisshiss:

Marik2:

Really?

Well I gotta ask where you downloaded it from, since the game was made to run for PC and Mac

I followed the link to the blog on this article, and one of the most recent posts had a link to the download right on it.

Marik2:

Hisshiss:

I followed the link to the blog on this article, and one of the most recent posts had a link to the download right on it.

*checks*

Wow I didn't know there was an HD re release....

Must be why its not working for you, might have some bugs.

Hold on

It doesn't work because the "HD" release is a an april fools joke. You have to get trough the regular download section.

ARE YOU SHITTING ME!?

NOT AGAIN 4LEAF

*SHAKES FIST ANGRILY*

So starting playing through it today, because why not? Really like the sound track, it seems to fit the style and just kind of float in the background, bringing everything to life. Especially when a lot of the characters seems to have a "theme" that plays when they show up. Like Kenji. Crazy guy.

I really like the characters and their personalities. Some of them almost seem like pieces of my friends, which really helps immerse me and relate to them.

One question though: if I were to close the window, would I be able to pick up right where I left off? I'm getting kind of tired and I'm scared to shut the game off for fear of losing my place in the story. I'm playing it on Mac, if that matters. But I opened it's equivalent of "File" in the corner and nothing showed up. Help?

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