Escape to the Movies: The Raid

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Kaulen Fuhs:
It's the package. Bob isn't going to stop doing it, so there's no real point in complaining about it.

Whether or not that's true is speculative on both sides of that argument. Not really relevant beyond just your opinion of the situation.

Either way, we're allowed to voice our complaints just as you're allowed to voice your complaints about our complaints.

Kaulen Fuhs:
And it isn't American Pie per se, though my wording thus far would definitely give that impression; my belief is that it is Bob's general disrespect for the things people value (or, in short, his opinion being different from yours) that causes people to get in a huff every time he releases a video.

Possibly for others, not the case for most that I've seen. Mostly it's about the arrogant bitching about high school. If you want to attach unspoken disrespect to all those comments, that's your prerogative since you made the connection where there wasn't any.

Kaulen Fuhs:
The reason I think this is that I don't really see people saying, "You know, Bob, you're completely right, but I came here to see a video reviewing The Raid".

And you'd probably consider that to be just as pointless since it accomplishes just as much saying the opposite. Not to say there aren't people said something along those lines in this thread if you actually looked. And I've already established that most of what people have said has very little to do with Bob's opinion on AP. It's about the fact that he was whining about it. You're saying it would be better if everyone added a little disclaimer at the end of their posts on Bob's whining to say whether or not they agreed with his summation of AP?

You said before that simply calling out Bob's whining is pointless; are you saying doing that wouldn't be?

Kaulen Fuhs:
Most just accuse him of whining.

Yes. We are. Not because he disrespected us.

Kaulen Fuhs:
But the thing that really bothers me is people talking about how it violates some "professional credibility" for him to act this way. Put simply, if The Escapist doesn't really care, then he is not in breach of professionalism, as they are actively paying him to do this. Full stop.

We don't expect them to. Most people are, again, just voicing their opinions. And again, just like you're voicing your opinion against our opinion. Think we're pointless? It was your choice to argue against what you deem pointless.

TheDrunkNinja:

Kaulen Fuhs:
It's the package. Bob isn't going to stop doing it, so there's no real point in complaining about it.

Whether or not that's true is speculative on both sides of that argument. Not really relevant beyond just your opinion of the situation.

Either way, we're allowed to voice our complaints just as you're allowed to voice your complaints about our complaints.

Kaulen Fuhs:
And it isn't American Pie per se, though my wording thus far would definitely give that impression; my belief is that it is Bob's general disrespect for the things people value (or, in short, his opinion being different from yours) that causes people to get in a huff every time he releases a video.

Possibly for others, not the case for most that I've seen. Mostly it's about the arrogant bitching about high school. If you want to attach unspoken disrespect to all those comments, that's your prerogative since you made the connection where there wasn't any.

Kaulen Fuhs:
The reason I think this is that I don't really see people saying, "You know, Bob, you're completely right, but I came here to see a video reviewing The Raid".

And you'd probably consider that to be just as pointless since it accomplishes just as much saying the opposite. Not to say there aren't people said something along those lines in this thread if you actually looked. And I've already established that most of what people have said has very little to do with Bob's opinion on AP. It's about the fact that he was whining about it. You're saying it would be better if everyone added a little disclaimer at the end of their posts on Bob's whining to say whether or not they agreed with his summation of AP?

You said before that simply calling out Bob's whining is pointless; are you saying doing that wouldn't be?

Kaulen Fuhs:
Most just accuse him of whining.

Yes. We are. Not because he disrespected us.

Kaulen Fuhs:
But the thing that really bothers me is people talking about how it violates some "professional credibility" for him to act this way. Put simply, if The Escapist doesn't really care, then he is not in breach of professionalism, as they are actively paying him to do this. Full stop.

We don't expect them to. Most people are, again, just voicing their opinions. And again, just like you're voicing your opinion against our opinion. Think we're pointless? It was your choice to argue against what you deem pointless.

I've mentioned it once, in this one thread. It gets brought up every single time Bob makes a new video.

EDIT: On that note, are you really all okay with doing exactly what you accuse Bob of doing? That is, complaining about something every time it comes up? It isn't like his mention of American Pie wasn't foreshadowed some time ago...

Kaulen Fuhs:
I've mentioned it once, in this one thread. It gets brought up every single time Bob makes a new video.

Define "it". The accusation of whining? That Bob's not going to stop? That people complain because they unspokenly feel like they've been disrespected? Bob's "professional credibility"?

We've both made a lot of points in this conversation. No reason to be vague now.

Kaulen Fuhs:
EDIT: On that note, are you really all okay with doing exactly what you accuse Bob of doing? That is, complaining about something every time it comes up? It isn't like his mention of American Pie wasn't foreshadowed some time ago...

It's the comments section of a public video. Where's the hypocrisy in preferring to hear his perspective on a subject everyone can relate to that has actual insight over repeatedly hearing about his personal problems?

TheDrunkNinja:

Kaulen Fuhs:
I've mentioned it once, in this one thread. It gets brought up every single time Bob makes a new video.

Define "it". The accusation of whining? That Bob's not going to stop? That people complain because they unspokenly feel like they've been disrespected? Bob's "professional credibility"?

We've both made a lot of points in this conversation. No reason to be vague now.

My thoughts on the matter in general. This is the only time I've voiced them, because they haven't, as far as I've seen, been voiced before by someone else.

Had they been, I wouldn't waste my time parroting the thoughts of others.

TheDrunkNinja:

Kaulen Fuhs:
EDIT: On that note, are you really all okay with doing exactly what you accuse Bob of doing? That is, complaining about something every time it comes up? It isn't like his mention of American Pie wasn't foreshadowed some time ago...

It's the comments section of a public video. Where's the hypocrisy in preferring to hear his perspective that has actual insight over repeatedly hearing about his personal problems?

The hypocrisy is in doing it over, and over, and over. And over. And over. And over.

Kaulen Fuhs:
My thoughts on the matter in general. This is the only time I've voiced them, because they haven't, as far as I've seen, been voiced before by someone else.

Had they been, I wouldn't waste my time parroting the thoughts of others.

So, now you don't believe in majority opinion then?

If you had no interest in defending your opinion, then you shouldn't have voiced them publicly. The same goes for Bob. Criticism is the risk you take when you publicly give your opinion on something. It's how you react to the criticism that defines how solid your belief is.

Kaulen Fuhs:
The hypocrisy is in doing it over, and over, and over. And over. And over. And over.

Is this going back to "There is no point in complaining or voicing your opinions because he won't stop"?

I've already said, whether or not that's true is completely speculative. For your side and the side that disagrees.

TheDrunkNinja:

Kaulen Fuhs:
My thoughts on the matter in general. This is the only time I've voiced them, because they haven't, as far as I've seen, been voiced before by someone else.

Had they been, I wouldn't waste my time parroting the thoughts of others.

So, now you don't believe in majority opinion then?

If you had no interest in defending your opinion, then you shouldn't have voiced them publicly. The same goes for Bob. Criticism is the risk you take when you publicly give your opinion on something. It's how you react to the criticism that defines how solid your belief is.

No, I don't. Not in this case. We aren't voting on anything, here.

My opinion has been stated. It has no evidence, and therefore no weight, and therefore needs no defense. You either believe it or you do not.

What we have here is Bob complaining incessantly, people complaining incessantly about his complaints, me complaining incessantly about their complaints, and you complaining incessantly about my complaints. This isn't going to end well no matter how we try to spin it, so what say we just stop?

Kaulen Fuhs:
No, I don't. Not in this case. We aren't voting on anything, here.

My opinion has been stated. It has no evidence, and therefore no weight, and therefore needs no defense. You either believe it or you do not.

What we have here is Bob complaining incessantly, people complaining incessantly about his complaints, me complaining incessantly about their complaints, and you complaining incessantly about my complaints. This isn't going to end well no matter how we try to spin it, so what say we just stop?

Well, if you're actually giving your admittance in fully participating in your own accusation of pointlessness, I guess I won't keep going.

Not that I would regardless. When someone yells "Stop" in any argument, I know to stop.

Hope I wasn't too frustrating to deal with. Keep it real.

TheDrunkNinja:

Kaulen Fuhs:
No, I don't. Not in this case. We aren't voting on anything, here.

My opinion has been stated. It has no evidence, and therefore no weight, and therefore needs no defense. You either believe it or you do not.

What we have here is Bob complaining incessantly, people complaining incessantly about his complaints, me complaining incessantly about their complaints, and you complaining incessantly about my complaints. This isn't going to end well no matter how we try to spin it, so what say we just stop?

Well, if you're actually giving your admittance in fully participating in your own accusation of pointlessness, I guess I won't keep going.

Not that I would regardless. When someone yells "Stop" in any argument, I know to stop.

Hope I wasn't too frustrating to deal with. Keep it real.

The same to you.

Kaulen Fuhs:

The Cool Kid:

Kaulen Fuhs:

Likely. However, no one would disallow to think such a thing, or to talk about it.

Regardless, none of the things you mentioned are inherently worth caring about. The value systems of human beings gravitate towards self-protection (allegedly), so naturally, those are things we say are worth caring about. That doesn't make them so. What about to a person who had no sense of self-preservation? They might mean little to such a person.

But there is no point in thinking such a thing, or mentioning it, and it certainly isn't a valid reply to criticism as you claim your notion of sincerity is. It's not. It was a complete waste of time to mention and doesn't dismiss any of the criticisms made.

Every sane creature has an urge of self preservation. To claim that the notion of self preservation is not inherently worthwhile is just bullshit as evolution would see off any creature that does not have self preservation. Any creature that does not have a notion of self preservation is an anomaly who will quickly be seen off, therefore using such a person as an example is an absurd notion. Come back to reality & stop digressing. This is about the childish attempt at insulting people who like AP because someone got a hard time at school. It's time for this critic to deal with his past and become a better critic for it. End of.

Oh. My. God.

Prove to me that being alive is inherently, by the nature of the universe, better than being dead. If you can't, I'll assume you just accept that without actually thinking about it, just like everyone else.

Value is 100% subjective. Until you can prove otherwise, burden of proof is on you.

EDIT: Never mind. You win. I've no interest in carrying on this conversation.

Because you exist when you are alive. You can interact with the world when you are alive.

You are just jumping down a fucking absurd existential path through sheer ignorance of biology and digressing100% off the topic. Value is not 100% subjective. If you have come to a conclusion through a logical progression then it is a logical decision and not subjective. This was shown 2000 years ago with Socrates. You clearly know fuck all about biology and philosophy so get back on topic. You point about sincerity was crap and until you can show it is worthwhile, then it will remain to be nothing more then crap.

Kaulen Fuhs:
[quote="theApoc" post="6.362596.14280683"]
I did say that at the beginning. Or were you referring to my admission that they are correct? Because that is beside the point.

Just doesn't make sense to me to complain about something that will not change. Will not.

EDIT: You know what, I stand by what I said. Going back through the comments, most of the ones I see go something like this, "Wahh, Moviebob insulted my particular movie going demographic in a review of his! I am offended!", not, "Moviebob, your show should only be used to review the movie, and not to slur the audience". Don't get me wrong, that's in there too, but only incidentally to the whining for the most part. Maybe people should practice what they preach, because it's really insincere to want Bob to do something solely because your hurt feelings are vested in him doing so, especially when you can just stop watching the minute he goes on his spiels.

That really isn't the point now is it? I can go to Burger King Expecting a burger. I can order one at the counter and give them my money, only to have them ultimately give me half of a chicken sandwich instead. I can send it back, ask for a refund, talk to the manager etc. All of which are irrelevant in the sense that I was expecting one thing and I got another.

THAT is the primary criticism of this type of "review". Bob's BS bait and switch. Either not reviewing something and complaining about it anyway, or reviewing it solely for the purpose of insulting anyone in the audience who happens to disagree. We could all stop watching the reviews, but seeing as this feature is SUPPOSED to be movie reviews, it should not be considered our fault when the guy making the video doesn't actually do his job.

I got a warning for saying that Bob's attitude was pathetic and childish. You know what my response was? If you don't like the criticism, don't have a forum. Don't ask for our feedback if your don't actually want our feedback. The Escapist seems to think it is OK to use our posts, link to our social media, cash in on our usage, without feeling as if we have any right as viewers to express our disappointment in their content.

They actually told me that contributors like Bob are allowed to insult the audience as they are not held to the same standard as the viewer. He can call us all morons for liking something but we can't call him childish for using a movie review as a soapbox.

Sorry but that is a load of crap. I AM a contributor, as is everyone else who visits this site and posts something. We are all throwing in our 2cents, something that they ask us to do. Yet somehow, our participation is only accepted under the condition that we take what we are given and keep our thoughts about it to ourselves.

Yeah I think not.

Facebook, Twitter, sites like The Escapist are ALL only as valuable as their users. For them to think anything other than that is a mistake.

theApoc:

Kaulen Fuhs:
[quote="theApoc" post="6.362596.14280683"]
I did say that at the beginning. Or were you referring to my admission that they are correct? Because that is beside the point.

Just doesn't make sense to me to complain about something that will not change. Will not.

EDIT: You know what, I stand by what I said. Going back through the comments, most of the ones I see go something like this, "Wahh, Moviebob insulted my particular movie going demographic in a review of his! I am offended!", not, "Moviebob, your show should only be used to review the movie, and not to slur the audience". Don't get me wrong, that's in there too, but only incidentally to the whining for the most part. Maybe people should practice what they preach, because it's really insincere to want Bob to do something solely because your hurt feelings are vested in him doing so, especially when you can just stop watching the minute he goes on his spiels.

That really isn't the point now is it? I can go to Burger King Expecting a burger. I can order one at the counter and give them my money, only to have them ultimately give me half of a chicken sandwich instead. I can send it back, ask for a refund, talk to the manager etc. All of which are irrelevant in the sense that I was expecting one thing and I got another.

THAT is the primary criticism of this type of "review". Bob's BS bait and switch. Either not reviewing something and complaining about it anyway, or reviewing it solely for the purpose of insulting anyone in the audience who happens to disagree. We could all stop watching the reviews, but seeing as this feature is SUPPOSED to be movie reviews, it should not be considered our fault when the guy making the video doesn't actually do his job.

I got a warning for saying that Bob's attitude was pathetic and childish. You know what my response was? If you don't like the criticism, don't have a forum. Don't ask for our feedback if your don't actually want our feedback. The Escapist seems to think it is OK to use our posts, link to our social media, cash in on our usage, without feeling as if we have any right as viewers to express our disappointment in their content.

They actually told me that contributors like Bob are allowed to insult the audience as they are not held to the same standard as the viewer. He can call us all morons for liking something but we can't call him childish for using a movie review as a soapbox.

Sorry but that is a load of crap. I AM a contributor, as is everyone else who visits this site and posts something. We are all throwing in our 2cents, something that they ask us to do. Yet somehow, our participation is only accepted under the condition that we take what we are given and keep our thoughts about it to ourselves.

Yeah I think not.

Facebook, Twitter, sites like The Escapist are ALL only as valuable as their users. For them to think anything other than that is a mistake.

Are you saying that The Escapist doesn't have the right to make up whatever rules they want to on a web site they own? I'm assuming you don't pay membership fees, of course...

I saw the Raid last month in the Jameson Dublin Film Festival and even got to sit in on the post film Q&A with Director Gareth Evans and Iko Uwais (along with a translator). The raid is absolutely superb - Better than any Tony Jaa film in my book. The moment the film ended, I honestly could have watched it from the start immediately after. Guess I'll have to wait for general release next month (I will be seeing it at least twice more in the cinema... and I rarely go to the cinema these days).

More excitingly, it is the first part of what will be a trilogy. Less excitingly, there is a US remake already signed up and I just know it's going to blow (despite Evans being executive producer) as most US remakes do.

Kaulen Fuhs:
[quote="theApoc" post="6.362596.14294691"]
Are you saying that The Escapist doesn't have the right to make up whatever rules they want to on a web site they own? I'm assuming you don't pay membership fees, of course...

Actually, if this was a pay to view site, they could do whatever they wanted. But seeing as this is more or less a public forum and the escapist allows posts from OUR social media accounts as well, the idea that they get to dismiss us as nothing more than commodities form them to insult or pander to, is preposterous.

This is the big boy internet, where people can and do post ANYTHING they want to. Where the stupidest thing can generate millions of views and dollars. People are starting to realize the power that this gives to the community, and rather than be forced into a one sided game of "we talk" you listen, the rules have changed, and for the first time, the ordinary average person is winning.

See this post, this is my voice. I can damn well say anything I want with that voice, just like Bob. The Escapist, can and does capitalize on this voice, as well as the voices of everyone else who visits this site. Be it a repost of an article. A link sent to a friend. A click through on an add. A Zero Punctuation coffee cup. Whatever.

What you are not realizing is that all of that comes at a price, as in the door swings both ways. How many people do you think this site lost when they canned the idiots from Extra Credits? How much traffic did Penny Arcade get by picking them up again? This interaction between the consumer and the content is more dynamic than ever before, so dismissing us out of hand is not only foolish, but potentially costly.

It takes one thing. One little thing to go viral, and then there is no stopping the wave, people just have to sit back and watch.

You complained about people complaining and telling Bob to do his job without insulting his audience. And when faced with the reality that we do actually have a point, you resorted to the BS argument that it is THEIR site and they can do what they want. I am here to tell you, that is not always the case...

It's not like we were calling for Bob to be fired, it's not like we called him a bunch of names and started making meme about him. We questioned why he felt it necessary to insult his audience for the sake of personal reaffirmation. Anyone who thinks that is crazy, should look in a mirror.

theApoc:

Kaulen Fuhs:
[quote="theApoc" post="6.362596.14294691"]
Are you saying that The Escapist doesn't have the right to make up whatever rules they want to on a web site they own? I'm assuming you don't pay membership fees, of course...

Actually, if this was a pay to view site, they could do whatever they wanted. But seeing as this is more or less a public forum and the escapist allows posts from OUR social media accounts as well, the idea that they get to dismiss us as nothing more than commodities form them to insult or pander to, is preposterous.

This is the big boy internet, where people can and do post ANYTHING they want to. Where the stupidest thing can generate millions of views and dollars. People are starting to realize the power that this gives to the community, and rather than be forced into a one sided game of "we talk" you listen, the rules have changed, and for the first time, the ordinary average person is winning.

See this post, this is my voice. I can damn well say anything I want with that voice, just like Bob. The Escapist, can and does capitalize on this voice, as well as the voices of everyone else who visits this site. Be it a repost of an article. A link sent to a friend. A click through on an add. A Zero Punctuation coffee cup. Whatever.

What you are not realizing is that all of that comes at a price, as in the door swings both ways. How many people do you think this site lost when they canned the idiots from Extra Credits? How much traffic did Penny Arcade get by picking them up again? This interaction between the consumer and the content is more dynamic than ever before, so dismissing us out of hand is not only foolish, but potentially costly.

It takes one thing. One little thing to go viral, and then there is no stopping the wave, people just have to sit back and watch.

You complained about people complaining and telling Bob to do his job without insulting his audience. And when faced with the reality that we do actually have a point, you resorted to the BS argument that it is THEIR site and they can do what they want. I am here to tell you, that is not always the case...

It's not like we were calling for Bob to be fired, it's not like we called him a bunch of names and started making meme about him. We questioned why he felt it necessary to insult his audience for the sake of personal reaffirmation. Anyone who thinks that is crazy, should look in a mirror.

If you'll look to some of my other posts (not sure which ones), you'll see that I've agreed with the general gist of what people are saying. My point wasn't to argue that any of you were wrong, per se.

Yes, the cost for dismissing the opinions of its target audience can be costly, but The Escapist is apparently willing to swallow those costs in some areas. I think that's perfectly fine. Any claim you have about it being foolish is pretty meaningless in the face of the reality; that they do take actions that lose them members of the audience, and appear to be perfectly okay with that.

I'm not saying that you're incorrect about the interaction between consumer and content, only that it appears to be a cost the Escapist is willing to accept, rendering your point moot.

Kaulen Fuhs:
[quote="theApoc" post="6.362596.14301078"]
If you'll look to some of my other posts (not sure which ones), you'll see that I've agreed with the general gist of what people are saying. My point wasn't to argue that any of you were wrong, per se.

Yes, the cost for dismissing the opinions of its target audience can be costly, but The Escapist is apparently willing to swallow those costs in some areas. I think that's perfectly fine. Any claim you have about it being foolish is pretty meaningless in the face of the reality; that they do take actions that lose them members of the audience, and appear to be perfectly okay with that.

I'm not saying that you're incorrect about the interaction between consumer and content, only that it appears to be a cost the Escapist is willing to accept, rendering your point moot.

Please don't take this as being argumentative, as I feel we have had a pretty civil discussion thus far and I respect the fact that you are willing to talk rather than just flame.

The Escapist is, from the emails I have received from their support department, perfectly willing to eat that cost. They made it pretty clear that my voice was little more than peeing into the wind. Which is why I feel it all the more important to respond in kind. To let them know that threats of "banning" on a site such as this that are ultimately meaningless to me, serve no one. Especially when my worst offense was being offended by one of their contributors.

I post and I argue because it is the IDEA of the consumer being powerful that is important to me, not the forum in which it may be debated. In this instance, who gives a crap about some niche website with an angst ridden movie reviewer. Certainly not I.

What I do care about is the relationship between content provider and content audience. When faced with a "we can do what we please" response from the Escapist, you know what my reaction was? Well, so can I.

See I don't need them anymore than they need me. I am in complete awareness of that fact. My reason for posting here is to express my opinion. Nothing more. I have no illusions of my single voice making a difference, especially with something so trivial as this. But it is important to use that voice, regardless of the context. So that when it comes to something that actually does matter. People aren't afraid to wield the power the internet has given them, good, bad or otherwise...

thank you for the discussion

Saw the Raid last night. Trust me it's phenomenal. I'm sure theres a group sitting around right now wishing someone would make another movie like Jet li's "The Legend". Stop what you're doing get up and go see The Raid. It tops every martial arts movie I can think of. I've never seen anything that compares to it. If you're think this is gonna be softhanded like a tony jaa movie you're wrong this is movie akin to Old boy and the Revenge trilogy. Someone gets brutally murdered about every 15 seconds and it never lets up its exhausting but fun.

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