In Defense of Hepler Mode

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I'll have a Hepler mode for Enslaved: Odyssey to the West please! I love the story, characters, cutscenes and platforming/exploration sections where you avoid enemies, but the actual combat is really boring me and just feels like it's getting in the way.

DrVornoff:

No, I think people who can't put aside the vitriol for 10 seconds are horrible people. Do I think you're all mosigynists? No, never said that. Just horrible people.

You heard it here first folks: misogynists are not horrible people.

Timmibal:

sumanai:

@Timmibal - Changing the argument so it's easier to argue against? Classy.

I'm not changing the argument. I'm taking what she SAID in context, to determine what she MEANT. And the only thing I can infer is that Ms. Hepler would prefer an interactive movie with a dialogue wheel that doesn't involve any kind of effort, challenge or time commitment. Due to her self-admission of being adverse to games, this is not surprising.

She spoke about skipping gameplay, combat to be precise for the purposes of getting access to other gameplay. You talked about skipping challenge. It doesn't make sense without equating challenge with combat. Hence the latter part.

What she meant is irrelevant. She can mean in her head whatever she wants, that doesn't change what she said. Arguing against something that wasn't actually vocalised is pointless. Also shouldn't we be discussing what Shamus had say about it, not whatever Hepler has going in her head?

Timmibal:
Specific to her view on games, however. Do you trust a Jeweller with an allergy to gold? A vegetarian Butcher? A Chocolatier who hates chocolate? An abstinent Brewer or Vitner?

Nitpicking: I've been served by abstinent bartenders. I'd have to know why the butcher is a vegetarian. I don't see why the jeweller couldn't just use sterling silver, bronze etc. I'm not arguing against your stance, I don't know Hepler well enough, but I don't think the analogies are working.

DrVornoff:

Zachary Amaranth:
Uhhh..I never said that, dude.

Made a mistake editing the quotes.

Kenjitsuka:
I'm more concerned about how they will DESIGN the games if this will become acceptable... If people start making games where the gameplay is skippable inevitably it will result in an inclination to pour less energy into making it perfect. "This section of the game is too dull/easy/repetitive/hard/unbalanced!" says Developer #1. Dev #2: "Care! They'll just skip it when they get frustrated, so let's just kick it out of the door before the boss yells at us for going over time/budget.".

Example: That Alone in the Dark game for XBOX 360. If you haven't played it, see the ZP review for the bottom line...

Someone already made a joke about that slippery slope argument. I don't buy it.

FredTheUndead:
Man, it must be rough being you.

Not a joke but an incredible simulation.

Of course, this also shows part of the problem with this discussion. I have to ask Fred, why do you even give a shit about what games I like or don't like? Why do you care that I liked something that you didn't?

Stilt:
So... am I defending Shamus for his article which is invective? (Probably not it)
Am I being defended by someone who likes the word cunt but doesnt agree with me? (More likely)
Am I being defended by someone who doesnt like the word cunt and agrees with me? (I 'unno)

No, I was not talking to you directly. I was using you as an example when talking to someone else. Jesus, does anyone read complete posts anymore?

From reading some of your posts, I've gathered that you have come to the conclusion that anyone who thinks Hepler is an annoying cunt is a misogynist, sexist, horrible human being to which I have to say, on what planet?

No, I think people who can't put aside the vitriol for 10 seconds are horrible people. Do I think you're all mosigynists? No, never said that. Just horrible people.

Just to demonstrate that I am not a misogynist, an invective that you so haphazardly toss out,

Please point to any post where I actually called someone a misogynist. Go ahead, do it.

Is it really that difficult for all of you to imagine that I just plain don't like bullying? Is that really so outlandish?

I have you mixed up with someone else then, the person im thinking of was handing out the label like it was candy, sorry for the confusion.

What was I doing, dont use me as an example, quote me, and expect me to know what they hell you are talking about.

While I dont agree with bullying either, Ms. Hepler SHOULD have known what she was getting into by saying people are envious of her vagina or her position as a writer in a mega corporation. Instead of solving her problem, she made it a billion times worse. Now people who didnt give a rats ass before have a motivation to call her out on her shit.

Now i get that her original comments werent meant to be inflammatory even though knowing how gamers GENERALLY are, she should have known (or someone over in the Chucky cheese that is the EA-Bioware marketing dept should have known) that her comments were going to make people angry. If you're going to make your comments public like that, you cant be so sensitive to what they might say, and especially dont make it known that you are sensitive. She made this all too clear with her response, and it only added shit on top of shit to the pile.

This is her job. She is getting paid to act professional. Random people on the internet drinking apple juice and playing videogames arent. Acting like a red faced child when you are representing a multi-billion dollar operation is just pathetic and she should be fired.

Not to mention her writing is fucking terrible

FredTheUndead:

DrVornoff:

No, I think people who can't put aside the vitriol for 10 seconds are horrible people. Do I think you're all mosigynists? No, never said that. Just horrible people.

You heard it here first folks: misogynists are not horrible people.

Misogynists might all be horrible people, but not all horrible people are misogynists. If you take that into consideration you might realise what he is actually saying.

sumanai:

FredTheUndead:

DrVornoff:

No, I think people who can't put aside the vitriol for 10 seconds are horrible people. Do I think you're all mosigynists? No, never said that. Just horrible people.

You heard it here first folks: misogynists are not horrible people.

Misogynists might all be horrible people, but not all horrible people are misogynists. If you take that into consideration you might realise what he is actually saying.

Lord only knows I couldn't be being sarcastic. The man is a pretentious ass and I've stopped bothering trying to engage him in any serious fashion.

But yes, aside of genuine harassment like visiting her house and such (not that I've ever seen any proof that such a thing occurred), Hepler has basically brought the firestorm on herself. She can't write, neither she nor anyone at Bioware understands damage control, and the entire ship is sinking because of accumulated problems like Hepler herself or Gaider.

FredTheUndead:

sumanai:

FredTheUndead:

You heard it here first folks: misogynists are not horrible people.

Misogynists might all be horrible people, but not all horrible people are misogynists. If you take that into consideration you might realise what he is actually saying.

Lord only knows I couldn't be being sarcastic. The man is a pretentious ass and I've stopped bothering trying to engage him in any serious fashion.

But yes, aside of genuine harassment like visiting her house and such (not that I've ever seen any proof that such a thing occurred), Hepler has basically brought the firestorm on herself. She can't write, neither she nor anyone at Bioware understands damage control, and the entire ship is sinking because of accumulated problems like Hepler herself or Gaider.

Dont forget Ray and Greg for selling out, as bank fattening and dickish as that move was

I don't like "Hepler mode" for the same reason i don't like audiobooks. It's like saying you want to read a book without actually reading it. You actually have to do a minimal amount of work and time to enjoy a piece of entertainment.

It also implies that games have no legitimacy, that the only significant part of a game is the part that imitates other media. For example, Dark Souls had essentially no story, but there were moving moments of triumph in that game that were related purely to the gameplay. Even powerful emotional moments, like having to kill a character who helped you through the toughest battles in the game, mean nothing without the attachments that the gameplay, and gameplay alone, create.

In the end, gameplay is what makes a game a game. A game is more than just a piece of entertainment or art; implicit in the label "game" is the idea that there is a challenge to be met and overcome by the player. A book asks nothing of the audience; there is nothing you need to accomplish to make it to the end of Tolstoy's War and Peace. It's not like the next chapter of the book will refuse to show up if the reader doesn't analyze the themes and literary merit of the previous chapter, but the real art of a game is in the challenge, in the gameplay. The opening cutscene of dark Souls was nothing, but having to kill Solaire (not in a cutscene, or by selecting a dialogue option, but because he showed up, out for blood, and forced the player to make a decision in the present, by actually considering, not the story, but the player's survival) was everything.

FredTheUndead:

But yes, aside of genuine harassment like visiting her house and such (not that I've ever seen any proof that such a thing occurred), Hepler has basically brought the firestorm on herself. She can't write, neither she nor anyone at Bioware understands damage control, and the entire ship is sinking because of accumulated problems like Hepler herself or Gaider.

I am getting tired of you. I have asked you to support the notion that she is a terrible writer, I have pointed out that some of your reasons for saying she brought this on her self are lies, and others are unreasonable.
Yet you just keep repeating that somehow she deserved to be harassed like this. You are the problem in this situation, your blind hate and insistence that she must deserve it, even if the reason you and others have is wrong.

Knight Templar:

FredTheUndead:

But yes, aside of genuine harassment like visiting her house and such (not that I've ever seen any proof that such a thing occurred), Hepler has basically brought the firestorm on herself. She can't write, neither she nor anyone at Bioware understands damage control, and the entire ship is sinking because of accumulated problems like Hepler herself or Gaider.

I am getting tired of you. I have asked you to support the notion that she is a terrible writer, I have pointed out that some of your reasons for saying she brought this on her self are lies, and others are unreasonable.
Yet you just keep repeating that somehow she deserved to be harassed like this. You are the problem in this situation, your blind hate and insistence that she must deserve it, even if the reason you and others have is wrong.

The onus for proof SHOULD be on you, being the one suggesting the more patently ridiculous thing.

But for proof she (and Gaider) are terrible writers, look no further than any given romance scene in Dragon Age 2. Hell, look at the video posted earlier in the thread, it nicely demonstrates Hepler's "skill."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLz0CqtMVc&list=UUyjLGp8hQObJMm4lSQccjFw&index=6&feature=plcp

Tripe. Utter tripe.

Honestly we wouldn't be having this argument at all if it weren't for y'all getting so upset over a simply, clear metaphor.

Stilt:
While I dont agree with bullying either, Ms. Hepler SHOULD have known what she was getting into by saying people are envious of her vagina or her position as a writer in a mega corporation. Instead of solving her problem, she made it a billion times worse. Now people who didnt give a rats ass before have a motivation to call her out on her shit.

Now i get that her original comments werent meant to be inflammatory even though knowing how gamers GENERALLY are, she should have known (or someone over in the Chucky cheese that is the EA-Bioware marketing dept should have known) that her comments were going to make people angry. If you're going to make your comments public like that, you cant be so sensitive to what they might say, and especially dont make it known that you are sensitive. She made this all too clear with her response, and it only added shit on top of shit to the pile.

Does that make what happened to her right? Yes or no will suffice.

FredTheUndead:
The man is a pretentious ass and I've stopped bothering trying to engage him in any serious fashion.

That would have required you to have actually been serious at some point.

But yes, aside of genuine harassment like visiting her house and such (not that I've ever seen any proof that such a thing occurred),

You think harassment is only of the physical variety? That explains a lot.

Frankly, I'm just calling it like I see it. You are making excuses for acting like an ape on the grounds that your poor wittle feewings were hurt. Grow up, boy.

FredTheUndead:
The onus for proof SHOULD be on you, being the one suggesting the more patently ridiculous thing.

That's not the way it works, kid. You made a claim and someone expressed skepticism. That means the burden of proof is on you. That's the way we do things in the real world.

Honestly we wouldn't be having this argument at all if it weren't for y'all getting so upset over a simply, clear metaphor.

People are more put off by the fact that you are saying you want to say whatever you want and not have to face the consequences for your actions. Just like now. People called you out on bad behavior and now you're crying and whining and stomping your feet like a child insistent that we just don't understand you.

DrVornoff:

Stilt:
While I dont agree with bullying either, Ms. Hepler SHOULD have known what she was getting into by saying people are envious of her vagina or her position as a writer in a mega corporation. Instead of solving her problem, she made it a billion times worse. Now people who didnt give a rats ass before have a motivation to call her out on her shit.

Now i get that her original comments werent meant to be inflammatory even though knowing how gamers GENERALLY are, she should have known (or someone over in the Chucky cheese that is the EA-Bioware marketing dept should have known) that her comments were going to make people angry. If you're going to make your comments public like that, you cant be so sensitive to what they might say, and especially dont make it known that you are sensitive. She made this all too clear with her response, and it only added shit on top of shit to the pile.

Does that make what happened to her right? Yes or no will suffice.

Yes. Yes it does. When, as a professional, you utterly fail at both your job and damage control, you DO deserve the shit that will be piled on you. You do not jump around the monkey cage throwing your shit at people and expect them to not be annoyed. CONTINUE throwing it for years and years, ignoring any and all criticisms and objections, and you are going to catch more than just a little heat.

This is not some random recent development. The current climate is the culmination of the shit piled up by everyone at Bioware. Hepler has made herself by far the easiest target.

I have to ask, do you also rabidly defend Bobby Kotick like this, or is Hepler just a special case?

FredTheUndead:

The onus for proof SHOULD be on you, being the one suggesting the more patently ridiculous thing.

That you do not understand burden of proof is a not a good sign for you.

I've already caught you spreading lies once, forgive me if I have less than zero reason to take what you say on faith.

But for proof she (and Gaider) are terrible writers, look no further than any given romance scene in Dragon Age 2. Hell, look at the video posted earlier in the thread, it nicely demonstrates Hepler's "skill."

Posting troll videos will not go over well with me. I'm asking you, so use your words. If you are unable to make any argument supportive of your position then that would suggest your position in wrong.
You cannot simply say "Look it's terrible" because that isn't an argument, that is you repeating yourself. You are aware how you look if when asked to support your claim you repeat it? You look simple, that is not something you want I would assume.

Honestly we wouldn't be having this argument at all if it weren't for y'all getting so upset over a simply, clear metaphor.

What are you talking about here exactly?
My problem is what you have been saying is either provably wrong or without basis.

Knight Templar:

FredTheUndead:

The onus for proof SHOULD be on you, being the one suggesting the more patently ridiculous thing.

That you do not understand burden of proof is a not a good sign for you.

I've already caught you spreading lies once, forgive me if I have less than zero reason to take what you say on faith.

But for proof she (and Gaider) are terrible writers, look no further than any given romance scene in Dragon Age 2. Hell, look at the video posted earlier in the thread, it nicely demonstrates Hepler's "skill."

Posting troll videos will not go over well with me. I'm asking you, so use your words. If you are unable to make any argument supportive of your position then that would suggest your position in wrong.
You cannot simply say "Look it's terrible" because that isn't an argument, that is you repeating yourself. You are aware how you look if when asked to support your claim you repeat it? You look simple, that is not something you want I would assume.

Honestly we wouldn't be having this argument at all if it weren't for y'all getting so upset over a simply, clear metaphor.

What are you talking about here exactly?
My problem is what you have been saying is either provably wrong or without basis.

Let the record show that when presented with footage of the goddamn game, the prosecution said "oh well THAT'S NOT EVIDENCE, TROLL VIDEO, TRY AGAIN."

I think Hepler mode is a really good idea. I remember when I was about 10 and I was watching a mates older brother play Soul Reaver... that's one of the things that got me into gaming. When I finally cobbled enough money together to get my own rig (costing $2000 when I was 15) the first game I got was Soul Reaver. And then I learned so much emulators and shit like that because it was made for 98 and I was running XP... then I found compatiblity mode that was built into the OS... *shoots self in face*

My point is the reason I have a gaming addiction (The loss in productivity I have suffered since ME3 "ended" proves that I have a problem) is because of Hepler mode... SO FUCK YOU HEPLER!!! YOU WANNA GET MORE PEOPLE HOOKED ON THIS SHIT?

I kid

I mean the person playing through Hepler mode doesn't get the full experience sure, but it broadens the appeal to more people. and on the plus side, if game developers were getting more sales from the story side, they might just start focusing on the story a bit more and I dunno, ending it better.

Providing the gameplay isn't sacrificed.

Also, it should be noted that I was out of the loop as far as the Hepler controversy was concerned, but Shamus's explanation seems quite reasonable... however it could be a straw man argument... AND SHE COULD BE A COMPLETE BITCH!

FredTheUndead:
Yes. Yes it does.

Then I was right about you. A pleasure doing business with you.

I have to ask, do you also rabidly defend Bobby Kotick like this, or is Hepler just a special case?

If he is receiving death threats and being harassed and having his personal information posted online without his consent (which happened to Hepler and which you are condoning), point me to those people so that I can slap them in the head and tell them to stop acting like fucking savages. I've cracked the odd joke at the dude's expense, but always in relation to his bad ideas such as breaking up a three act game into three separate games and charging full price for all of them. I have never once made a fat joke or a Sith lord joke. Mostly because I have some self-respect and what many would consider to be a conscience.

No, instead I choose to exercise my disapproval of Activision's bad business decisions by no longer buying their products. I also don't feel the need to remind the internet of this every twenty minutes. I can trust you all to remember that, or if it comes up in conversation, I figure a quick explanation of my reasoning is all that's needed and we can move on because my purchasing habits are probably not terribly interesting to anyone who isn't psychotic.

I know this all sounds very revolutionary and counterintuitive, but this whole conscience and personal integrity thing really does work. And I'm able to apply it to things outside of the entertainment industry as well. For example, my former employer fired me for a bullshit reason, called me a thief, and blocked the union from getting me my job back. And all that after he spent three months dramatically increasing my work load without increasing my pay by even a penny. But I manage to restrain myself from mailing him a box of my own feces every Monday in retaliation. This ability to not act like an animal actually allows me to cultivate a greater sense of well-being and self-worth. And I don't have to explain anything to the cops. Remarkable, no?

FredTheUndead:

Knight Templar:

FredTheUndead:

The onus for proof SHOULD be on you, being the one suggesting the more patently ridiculous thing.

That you do not understand burden of proof is a not a good sign for you.

I've already caught you spreading lies once, forgive me if I have less than zero reason to take what you say on faith.

But for proof she (and Gaider) are terrible writers, look no further than any given romance scene in Dragon Age 2. Hell, look at the video posted earlier in the thread, it nicely demonstrates Hepler's "skill."

Posting troll videos will not go over well with me. I'm asking you, so use your words. If you are unable to make any argument supportive of your position then that would suggest your position in wrong.
You cannot simply say "Look it's terrible" because that isn't an argument, that is you repeating yourself. You are aware how you look if when asked to support your claim you repeat it? You look simple, that is not something you want I would assume.

Honestly we wouldn't be having this argument at all if it weren't for y'all getting so upset over a simply, clear metaphor.

What are you talking about here exactly?
My problem is what you have been saying is either provably wrong or without basis.

Let the record show that when presented with footage of the goddamn game, the prosecution said "oh well THAT'S NOT EVIDENCE, TROLL VIDEO, TRY AGAIN."

Dude, Chill, seriously, you'll give your self an anurisim.

I agree... The Dragon Age II romances are shit, but *Shurg* you're forgetting that people are stupid. You can't just hold up anything, no matter how shit it is, and say its shit; you need to justify the statement. Any lawyer in a court room will break down video footage for the benefit of the jury so they can understand the evidence better.

DrVornoff:

FredTheUndead:
Yes. Yes it does.

Then I was right about you. A pleasure doing business with you.

I have to ask, do you also rabidly defend Bobby Kotick like this, or is Hepler just a special case?

If he is receiving death threats and being harassed and having his personal information posted online without his consent (which happened to Hepler and which you are condoning), point me to those people so that I can slap them in the head and tell them to stop acting like fucking savages. I've cracked the odd joke at the dude's expense, but always in relation to his bad ideas such as breaking up a three act game into three separate games and charging full price for all of them. I have never once made a fat joke or a Sith lord joke. Mostly because I have some self-respect and what many would consider to be a conscience.

No, instead I choose to exercise my disapproval of Activision's bad business decisions by no longer buying their products. I also don't feel the need to remind the internet of this every twenty minutes. I can trust you all to remember that, or if it comes up in conversation, I figure a quick explanation of my reasoning is all that's needed and we can move on because my purchasing habits are probably not terribly interesting to anyone who isn't psychotic.

I know this all sounds very revolutionary and counterintuitive, but this whole conscience and personal integrity thing really does work.

And once again you resort to lying when all else fails.

I have said REPEATEDLY that I do not condone the death threats, the visitations, and all that guff. I speak, as I always have, strictly of insults sent her way regarding her tangible effects on the products Bioware, a company I once loved, puts out, and her handling of legitimate criticisms on this point.

YOU have spent this whole thread complaining about my word choice of "tumor." You have been pitching a fit over this and because of that seen fit to place upon me positions I've never stood for.

Sargent Hoofbeat:

FredTheUndead:

Knight Templar:

That you do not understand burden of proof is a not a good sign for you.

I've already caught you spreading lies once, forgive me if I have less than zero reason to take what you say on faith.

Posting troll videos will not go over well with me. I'm asking you, so use your words. If you are unable to make any argument supportive of your position then that would suggest your position in wrong.
You cannot simply say "Look it's terrible" because that isn't an argument, that is you repeating yourself. You are aware how you look if when asked to support your claim you repeat it? You look simple, that is not something you want I would assume.

What are you talking about here exactly?
My problem is what you have been saying is either provably wrong or without basis.

Let the record show that when presented with footage of the goddamn game, the prosecution said "oh well THAT'S NOT EVIDENCE, TROLL VIDEO, TRY AGAIN."

Dude, Chill, seriously, you'll give your self an anurisim.

I agree... The Dragon Age II romances are shit, but *Shurg* you're forgetting that people are stupid. You can't just hold up anything, no matter how shit it is, and say its shit; you need to justify the statement. Any lawyer in a court room will break down video footage for the benefit of the jury so they can understand the evidence better.

Yes, that is true, however the courts have tangible things at stake in them. Here I'm just dealing with two assholes who really seem attached to Hepler. I have no reason to do anything but low effort posts. The only reason I respond at all is because they're leveling personal insults at me over my dislike of their beloved Undead Bioware.

Besides, romance in particular is a genre that relies on emotion and instinct, moreso than almost any other. If hearing that dialogue doesn't make you retch, there's really no hope for you, no logical argument will change your mind.

FredTheUndead:
And once again you resort to lying when all else fails.

I have said REPEATEDLY that I do not condone the death threats, the visitations, and all that guff. I speak, as I always have, strictly of insults sent her way regarding her tangible effects on the products Bioware, a company I once loved, puts out, and her handling of legitimate criticisms on this point.

I asked if the treatment she received, all of it, was justified and you said yes. Don't bullshit me.

YOU have spent this whole thread complaining about my word choice of "tumor." You have been pitching a fit over this and because of that seen fit to place upon me positions I've never stood for.

Then stop being an apologist for a bunch of savages by tacitly encouraging more of their bullshit through your actions. You're just making things worse by talking like that.

FredTheUndead:

Let the record show that when presented with footage of the goddamn game, the prosecution said "oh well THAT'S NOT EVIDENCE, TROLL VIDEO, TRY AGAIN."

Did you not read any of what I posted? I guess it doesn't matter. The point wasn't to show you that you were wrong, you have already demonstrated that you do not care you are wrong.
The point in attempting to talk with you was that anybody reading would know you are a liar who is unable to support his own claims.

This has been done. You apparently did not even know of this video untill it was shown to you, so using it as at best a post-hoc defence wouldn't cut it even if it wasn't blatantly trolling.

Should you ever decide that maybe you can defend you baseless and disgusting attacks we can continue this, untill then your trolling is not amusing.

Just to hammer the point home, she didn't write the romances that the video shows, or uses to support itself. You are using the existence of some character and romance written by another person as evidence for the notion that Hepler is all that you say. This is why the video is trolling and doesn't support what you say. This is why I can say you are unable to support yourself.

DrVornoff:

FredTheUndead:
And once again you resort to lying when all else fails.

I have said REPEATEDLY that I do not condone the death threats, the visitations, and all that guff. I speak, as I always have, strictly of insults sent her way regarding her tangible effects on the products Bioware, a company I once loved, puts out, and her handling of legitimate criticisms on this point.

I asked if the treatment she received, all of it, was justified and you said yes. Don't bullshit me.

YOU have spent this whole thread complaining about my word choice of "tumor." You have been pitching a fit over this and because of that seen fit to place upon me positions I've never stood for.

Then stop being an apologist for a bunch of savages by tacitly encouraging more of their bullshit through your actions. You're just making things worse by talking like that.

I explicitly DIDN'T say all of it was justified. I've denied that point repeatedly.

I DO think she needs to go (and I mean her POSITION, not her LIFE, before you say anything), there's reason to sugarcoat that point. Nor will I act as if all of these insults just come out of some void of misogyny and blind rage, as you'd like to pretend. If you want THAT version of reality, go post on Bioware Social Network.

Knight Templar:

FredTheUndead:

Let the record show that when presented with footage of the goddamn game, the prosecution said "oh well THAT'S NOT EVIDENCE, TROLL VIDEO, TRY AGAIN."

Did you not read any of what I posted? I guess it doesn't matter. The point wasn't to show you that you were wrong, you have already demonstrated that you do not care you are wrong.
The point in attempting to talk with you was that anybody reading would know you are a liar who is unable to support his own claims.

This has been done. You apparently did not even know of this video untill it was shown to you, so using it as at best a post-hoc defence wouldn't cut it even if it wasn't blatantly trolling.

Should you ever decide that maybe you can defend you baseless and disgusting attacks we can continue this, untill then your trolling is not amusing.

Just to hammer the point home, she didn't write the romances that the video shows, or uses to support itself. You are using the existence of some character and romance written by another person as evidence for the notion that Hepler is all that you say. This is why the video is trolling and doesn't support what you say. This is why I can say you are unable to support yourself.

No I didn't know of that video, I was unfortunate enough to have played the game, I didn't need a video.

Look man, if you want to act like the kind of writing we see in modern Bioware games is great, that's your business, but try not to tank the RPG genre for the rest of us, kay? Some of us would like to play games as great as Planescape Torment again.

FredTheUndead:

No I didn't know of that video, I was unfortunate enough to have played the game, I didn't need a video.

If you do not need a video then why are you so adamantly against offering anything to support your claims? Why can't you even get what Hepler wrote correct?

Look man, if you want to act like the kind of writing we see in modern Bioware games is great, that's your business, but try not to tank the RPG genre for the rest of us, kay? Some of us would like to play games as great as Planescape Torment again.

I'm trying to get you to support what you said. You insist you can do it, that your words are more than empty insults and lies. Yet when pressed to offer something you give a video that you only just found and posses nothing to support your claims.
If it is so obvious, so clearly true then prove it. If you can't then you need to reassess your position, because it is clearly in error.

To make this simple for you, put up or shut up.

FredTheUndead:
I explicitly DIDN'T say all of it was justified. I've denied that point repeatedly.

And failed miserably to follow through. Talk is cheap. Act consistent with what you say, and maybe I wouldn't have such a problem with you. Novel concept, no?

I DO think she needs to go (and I mean her POSITION, not her LIFE, before you say anything), there's reason to sugarcoat that point. Nor will I act as if all of these insults just come out of some void of misogyny and blind rage, as you'd like to pretend.

If you don't like her work, fine. I can't tell people what to think. But I can stand up to their actions, which is exactly what I'm doing. And you are failing to measure up.

I think what we're seeing is not misogyny per se, but a demonstration of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. You may notice that I never actually called anyone in this thread a misogynist. Now who's making shit up, sparky?

We have overly entitled little bastards who believe they are not responsible for the consequences of their actions and therefor anything is fair game when making their juvenile demands. By adding to the invective you are tacitly encouraging them to continue. And I'm calling bullshit.

If you want THAT version of reality, go post on Bioware Social Network.

I left BSN and never looked back for the same reason I'm standing up to you now: I have some goddamn self-respect.

No I didn't know of that video, I was unfortunate enough to have played the game, I didn't need a video.

See? Shit like this? Doesn't make you look good. Other people read that and hear, "Why should I back up my opinions? They're self-evident!" This is why you are getting people telling you to start putting some substance behind all your whining.

Look man, if you want to act like the kind of writing we see in modern Bioware games is great, that's your business, but try not to tank the RPG genre for the rest of us, kay? Some of us would like to play games as great as Planescape Torment again.

And this makes you look like a weirdo who is way too concerned with how other people consume media, which is really none of your fucking business. I hate Tyler Perry movies, but I don't yell at black people for going to see them.

DrVornoff:

FredTheUndead:
I explicitly DIDN'T say all of it was justified. I've denied that point repeatedly.

And failed miserably to follow through. Talk is cheap. Act consistent with what you say, and maybe I wouldn't have such a problem with you. Novel concept, no?

You've just been deciding the whole time that I'm on this side that wants her beaten in the streets. The way you act, it's a binary thing between either loving her and wanting her writing forever, or wanting her dead.

So no, I don't feel much need to justify the particulars of my opinions to you, because you will simply ignore what I say and claim I said something else. You, and to a lesser extent the templar, have spent this entire thread making revisionist statements. You don't WANT discussion, you just want to act all self righteous by saying "look at those kids, they don't want good video games, they just want to beat some woman. They're not disgruntled customers who are pissed over the waste of both years of dedicated following and hard earned cash, angry at having been tossed aside so that the company can support the same assholes and bitches that spent years scoffing at games, they're just entitled children!"

I have no reason to get into a breakdown of points with those who've already made up their mind. It's like arguing with a fundie, it's an exercise in futility.

So if what you really want IS an even, logical discussion, then no, YOU should be the one to put up or shut up. YOU made this into a personal matter by dismissing people in such a fashion just because they didn't like some game that you rather obviously did. But rather than attempting to engage on a logical level, you opted for insults and all hope of communication was lost.

So no, this is the end. No more responses, no more back and forths, I'm done with this discussion. Bottom line: I don't want Hepler dead or anything. I DO want her fired, because I feel that her products are sub-standard and her response to criticism unprofessional. Is she the real root of the problem? No, EA is, but she's certainly not ever helped and has made herself a symbol. That all said I think the Dragon Age team, ironically, will probably be the least likely to lose their jobs to EA budget cuts, considering TOR and ME3 have stirred up much greater shitstorms and destroyed EA stocks.

That's it really.

FredTheUndead:
You've just been deciding the whole time that I'm on this side that wants her beaten in the streets. The way you act, it's a binary thing between either loving her and wanting her writing forever, or wanting her dead.

Except for the fact that I at no point said that. You bitch that I'm putting words in your mouth, and then you do the exact same thing. Don't bullshit me.

So no, I don't feel much need to justify the particulars of my opinions to you, because you will simply ignore what I say and claim I said something else. You, and to a lesser extent the templar, have spent this entire thread making revisionist statements. You don't WANT discussion, you just want to act all self righteous by saying "look at those kids, they don't want good video games, they just want to beat some woman. They're not disgruntled customers who are pissed over the waste of both years of dedicated following and hard earned cash, angry at having been tossed aside so that the company can support the same assholes and bitches that spent years scoffing at games, they're just entitled children!"

See, there you go again. "They're not assholes! They're poor, wronged souls who have had their feelings hurt!"

I have no reason to get into a breakdown of points with those who've already made up their mind. It's like arguing with a fundie, it's an exercise in futility.

Back atcha. Except for the fact that I still possess the integrity to continue backing up my arguments, regardless of the futility.

So if what you really want IS an even, logical discussion, then no, YOU should be the one to put up or shut up. YOU made this into a personal matter by dismissing people in such a fashion just because they didn't like some game that you rather obviously did. But rather than attempting to engage on a logical level, you opted for insults and all hope of communication was lost.

I made no claims beyond calling you a dick for your acidic rhetoric. And now you're getting hostile and defense because, oh no! The bad man on the internet doesn't like you!

You're the one who keeps making claims and then being an apologist for people whose actions were wrong. And all you can come up with is whining about what a victim you and those savages are.

So no, this is the end. No more responses, no more back and forths, I'm done with this discussion.

Don't do us any favors.

Bottom line: I don't want Hepler dead or anything. I DO want her fired, because I feel that her products are sub-standard and her response to criticism unprofessional. Is she the real root of the problem? No, EA is, but she's certainly not ever helped and has made herself a symbol. That all said I think the Dragon Age team, ironically, will probably be the least likely to lose their jobs to EA budget cuts, considering TOR and ME3 have stirred up much greater shitstorms and destroyed EA stocks.

That's it really.

You can think whatever you like. But don't shit on the floor and tell me it's Bioware's fault for making you mad.

I say the anger was justified, and just because she is a woman does not all of a sudden protect her from legitimate criticism. (No I am not defending the shit smeared mongoloids at Reddit, I'm defending the people who were legitimately criticizing her)

The main problem with what she said is this:

What she proposed effectively means no story would be told through the gameplay, and I'm sure everyone can agree the best game narratives use not just cutscenes but gameplay to tell their story. In fact using this method is probably the most effective thing a video game writer can do. Games like Half Life, Dark Souls and Assassins Creed are all great examples of games that use this method. (Not talking about fucking QTE)

This is what makes video games the unique media it is, you can weave the story with the gameplay creating a truly gripping experience that not other media can get even close to emulating. The best moments in most games I remember are things that do this, a perfect example is the needle bit in Dead Space 2.

Without this, video games stories would lose what makes them so special and different. This is why Hepler is should be out of a job, she sees writing in videos games the same as writing a book or movie.

secretsantaone:
I am actually going to stop responding to the other guy.

The discussion will be better for it.

Grey Day for Elcia:

secretsantaone:
I am actually going to stop responding to the other guy.

The discussion will be better for it.

Well that's just like, your opinion man.

I actually do this about as closely as I can. Even though I'm perfectly capable of running through any BioWare game on Insanity difficulty, be it Dragon Age or Mass Effect, I almost invariably play with combat difficulty on casual, and just waltz through the combat as quickly as possible to get to the next story scene.

Not to say the combat isn't fun, but the only "difficult" part about the combat at higher levels is that it takes longer. And I'd rather have my 30 hours per game be spent more on story than combat.

Just my two cents. ($10,000,000 Canadian)

Xiado:

It also implies that games have no legitimacy, that the only significant part of a game is the part that imitates other media. For example, Dark Souls had essentially no story, but there were moving moments of triumph in that game that were related purely to the gameplay. Even powerful emotional moments, like having to kill a character who helped you through the toughest battles in the game, mean nothing without the attachments that the gameplay, and gameplay alone, create.

Quoted for Truth

mfeff:
Look, what is being talked about here has already been done... and better... much much better by better developers. I got games on the old Sega Saturn that did (all of this) quite well. For reference let us examine a modern game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a18M1dJdlU0&feature=relmfu

Getting away from technical mechanics, strategy, and tactics destroys by "most" definition the very "idea" of what "game" means.

Intentionally "cordoning off" the game play from the narrative exposition cripples some of the strongest elements of the strategic simulation that is available to the game developer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbUQiF45V_k&feature=fvwrel

Done right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBAgYtHHiUU

Done WRONG!

How old school can we go?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldmGKPGzxYw&feature=relmfu

(Pets his original pristine copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga signed by Team Andromeda). Pure Art! Which by the by, is compliant with the definition of art for if my copy is destroyed all remaining copies go up in value.

But keep on doin whatch'a doin... what do I know.

Quoted for Awesome

sumanai:

She spoke about skipping gameplay, combat to be precise for the purposes of getting access to other gameplay. You talked about skipping challenge. It doesn't make sense without equating challenge with combat. Hence the latter part.

That's exactly what she's doing though. When you listen to her interview, She refers to 'combat' in the context of 'time-consuming, challenging bits where I might die', and 'story' as 'bits where I get to watch cutscenes'

What she meant is irrelevant. She can mean in her head whatever she wants, that doesn't change what she said. Arguing against something that wasn't actually vocalised is pointless.

Intent and subtext are the most important parts of communication. Without them, 65% of all communication is miscommunication.

Also shouldn't we be discussing what Shamus had say about it, not whatever Hepler has going in her head?

No, I believe her viewpoint is relevant. It's an interesting idea coming from a person whose outlook is provably in the WRONG place for games. The source of information can be as important as the information itself.

Patrick_and_the_ricks:
What she proposed effectively means no story would be told through the gameplay,

I don't buy that. I ask once again. Let's say I'm playing an action game. At one point, there is a vehicle section. I don't like vehicle sections. Why am I being unreasonable in saying I would prefer to skip that section and get back to the parts that I think are fun?

Timmibal:
No, I believe her viewpoint is relevant. It's an interesting idea coming from a person whose outlook is provably in the WRONG place for games. The source of information can be as important as the information itself.

Why don't you want to discuss the things Shamus said? I think he said some really interesting things and I would like to talk about them. Why doesn't anyone want to talk about them?

Wouldn't Hepler mode just turn your game into a movie? If I want to watch a movie I'll just watch a movie. If I want to play a game I'll play a game. There's a reason both these mediums exist comfortably parallel to each other.
This isn't complicated, people, if you don't want interactivity go enjoy something that wasn't made specifically to be interactive. There's a reason they're called video GAMES.

OlasDAlmighty:
Wouldn't Hepler mode just turn your game into a movie? If I want to watch a movie I'll just watch a movie. If I want to play a game I'll play a game. There's a reason both these mediums exist comfortably parallel to each other.
This isn't complicated, people, if you don't want interactivity go enjoy something that wasn't made specifically to be interactive. There's a reason they're called video GAMES.

I will ask again. Suppose I'm playing an action game and I'm having fun and then I come to a vehicle section. I don't like those. Why shouldn't I have the option to skip the vehicle section and get back to the part that I think is fun?

DrVornoff:

Patrick_and_the_ricks:
What she proposed effectively means no story would be told through the gameplay,

I don't buy that. I ask once again. Let's say I'm playing an action game. At one point, there is a vehicle section. I don't like vehicle sections. Why am I being unreasonable in saying I would prefer to skip that section and get back to the parts that I think are fun?

That not even close to what she suggested, she suggest there should be a button to bypass gameplay entirely to get back to the cutscenes.

Why would you bother putting story into the gameplay if you can just skip it?

In Mass Effect 3 for example, almost everything import is said in cutscenes, while in the previous titles they had much more in mission banter sprinkled here and there.

Besides if you want to play a specific section in a game you found fun, most games do have a mission select.

Patrick_and_the_ricks:
That not even close to what she suggested, she suggest there should be a button to bypass gameplay entirely to get back to the cutscenes.

So you're not going to answer my question?

Why would you bother putting story into the gameplay if you can just skip it?

Why do they bother putting story in cutscenes when people (usually) have the option of skipping those?

Besides if you want to play a specific section in a game you found fun, most games do have a mission select.

What if I don't like a part of a chapter because it uses different gameplay that I don't enjoy? Do I have to skip the whole chapter because 5 minutes of it don't appeal to me? Why can't I just skip those 5 minutes?

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