Jimquisition: Fish, FEZ, And Supporting Art Over Artists

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TheKasp:

RaikuFA:

Its not just him, its Bioware, Tommy Tallarico, the people from X-Play and the guy who made Braid who have also said it.

In fact, I'm still harrased over what Bioware said whenever I say I like JRPGs I get flak for it and the reason is "Bioware says that they're bad, so you have shitty taste in games."

Ok, I never heard of any of it. I have my own reasons to think that jRPG are crap, none of the above has something to do with it.

Also, I don't give a fuck about japanese bigwigs who not only don't give a fuck about the west, they also don't give a fuck about my platform of choice.

As long as its not on the lines of "It sucks because its from Japan." or "It's not CoD". I'm ok with it. I might be wrong but you might have said its because of the gameplay or tropes assosiated with it, which is an opinion I'm ok with.

I was willing to believe anything you said once you showed a picture of Donnie Darko when talking about something that sucked.

Should have gone all Hubard on me, asking me to give up all my property, money and free will.

Jim's video this week reminds me of a couple weeks ago, when Gabe Newell came out and said he was a brony. And then when the video was posted on YouTube, quite a few people said they would not buy another Valve game just because Gabe watches Friendship is Magic.

But Jim is right, it is up to the consumer to determine what they feel is worth buying, and if they don't want to buy a game because they think the developer is an ass, then that's their decision.

RaikuFA:
But yeah, Fish is an ass for what he said but he was right that Braids creator deserves more flak cause at least Fish backtracked and said it was CURRENT games from Japan that suck(which is huge your mileage may vary territory there).

Yea, he's basically just being a bit of a more... crude voice to Keije Inafune. Hell, Inafune openly said that these are the sort of things that need to be said if the Japanese game industry is to change.

Personally, I don't care if the sole-creator of a game is the biggest asshole on Earth. As long as he's not doing anything too illegal and he's making games that I want to buy, I say he deserves my money. This is capitalism. Are we going to start refusing to adopt new and improved technologies because their creator isn't very nice?

Without the internet, we would've never heard a damn word this guy has ever said. As it is now, I don't even know what people's problem with him is.

Not everyone in the world is a kind person, and I don't think the amount of money somebody makes should be influenced by their social skills unless it's inherent to their job. Freedom of speech means everyone has a right to voice their opinion, no matter how wrong or bigoted that opinion is. You also have a right to spend your money however you want, but not buying a game that you'd really like to play is punishing yourself and all the other developers as well as your target.

I don't think being nice should be a universal requirement. It'd be swell if more people were considerate of others in their day to day life, but in my mind, talent is talent and we should be weeding out the devs who aren't good at making games, not the ones who say mean things.

Seriously, now, this has gotten blown way out of proportion. I haven't played a Japanese game I enjoyed since Final Fantasy 7 (just remembered I played Recettear and liked it). I've never played a sports game I enjoyed. Or a dance game.

Why is he an asshole or a racist for having an opinion? Okay, he certainly could have phrased his better, but really now. If I hated Bioware games, that doesn't mean I hate Canadians.

As far as separating the art from the artist, I can perfectly fine. I like the Ender books. I think Orson Scott Card is a crazy person. But I'll still buy the Ender books as long as they keep being good. I'm supporting the art, and encouraging the art to keep being made. What the artist does with that money is entirely up to him/her, as we live in a (relatively) free, democratic country and Orson Scott Card is not claiming to be a non-profit.

I like this kind of discussion. So often, we find things we love, and yet they're creator is content with being an asshole, even going so far as to ignore constructive criticism and outright be hateful against the people who love their product! I was actually thinking about this earlier today, about the idea of having a "relationship" with your fans. Not all fans are perfect, but you need to treat them with respect and dignity, or else you'll risk ruining yourself...

MonkeyPunch:
Phil Fish rubs me up the wrong way. So many of his statements are so amazingly narrow minded and blinkered, it's hard to fathom that he's in a creative position.
Meh.

To be honest just about every creator of note has been the same way, it takes strong positions to create things of worth. With western society largely split 50-50 between the left and right wings, it's not surprising that your seeing a lot of creators coming from the right wing camp, even if the left wing generally dominates the media. To an extent what your seeing with Phil Fish is the pendelum starting to swing back the other way, with people who don't entirely follow the left wing ideas of political correctness increasingly speaking their minds despite this.

Right now people going off about the guy who made Earthworm Jim (the name always seems to elude me), Phil Fish, Orson Scott Card, and others are roughly the equivilent of what conservatives were trying to quash the first dissenting voices of the hippies during the 1960s and 1970s who were saying the same thing. It's a slow process, but the pendelum swings back especially during periods of prolonged deadlock. It wasn't that long ago (your parents or grandparents generation) where people were saying the same thing about a lot of the social revolutionaries who birthed the current face of the left wing through their art and music.

I'll also say that creators are almost always arseholes. You'll find that a lot of the great writers, painters, and creators throughout history are not only complete dillweeds by today's standards if you read about them, but were also on the fringes of society during their own time. If you judge people by having opinions, even in their work, that you don't agree with, chances are your likely to wind up appreciating very little. What we're seeing here is a matter of the current counter culture (yes, right wing is the new counter culture, due to the left wing having gained media prominance) increasingly speaking out, which is why awareness of this kind of thing and what creators think (which isn't always PC) is making the news.

In the end the point is that you should decide whether you like the product more than the artist. Heck, when you get down to it you'll probably find the better the creation the more likely the creator is to be totally off their rocker... including kinds of insanity that don't match the "line" of either major western point of view.

Out there right now I wouldn't be surprised if at least one major game developer gets crazy drunk, downs hallucinigenic mushrooms, and writes his games based on conversations with his DTs which manifest in his vomit... or something equally outlandish. How the "muse" actually works usually isn't all that romantic. :)

Just thought I say, Mr.Sterling, that your last video about Mass Effects ending ( I don't want to talk about it anymore, im just talking about Jim's last vid) was actually the most balanced thing I had seen on the subject. Seriously, I was shocked, im so used to hearing Jim have a good rant. You had the peeps who hated the ending either crying like babies or not speaking loud enough for others to get the point while everyone else just called them pathetic then you just came along and said "I get it, if they change it good for them, if they don't thats their decision" I had alot of respect for you there.

Now if interweb logic is to be believed im starting to sound like a fan boy, so let me finish by suggesting that your face looks like a bulldog licking piss off of a stingning nettle... a really sexy bulldog.

Scrustle:

RaikuFA:

Its not just him, its Bioware, Tommy Tallarico, the people from X-Play and the guy who made Braid who have also said it.

In fact, I'm still harrased over what Bioware said whenever I say I like JRPGs I get flak for it and the reason is "Bioware says that they're bad, so you have shitty taste in games."

When did those people say stuff like that? I knew Jonathan Blow (Braid guy) has said some controversial things but I've not heard him slag off Japanese games. Never heard any of the other people say anything like it at all. I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just interested to see what these people said.

I already mentioned Tommy's.

X Play:

I took a look again and Jon Blows makes sense.

And Bioware

vxicepickxv:
So, here's a question for Jim. How can I give you money if you don't sell me stuff?

Haha. You could always track down my Amazon wishlist and get me Aliens stuff.

I do not endorse or encourage this.

But Aliens.

LoathsomePete:
Separating art from the artist can be very tricky, and it mostly comes down to where you draw the line and how much compromise you're willing to give. In some cases I can let some assholish behavior slide as with Alan Moore, and in other cases I cannot, like with Varg Vikernes from the black metal band Burzum. While I love the genre and can at least understand where fans are coming from in regards to the influence he had on adding a sense of atmosphere to black metal, I cannot let that excuse his racist, bigoted, murderous ways.

Varg Vikernes owes like a million dollars to the Norwegian government and will most likely never see a dime of the money you'd spend on one of his records.

OT: I think compartmentalising is little but an absolute must these days, if it is your intent to owe any piece of hardware ever. After all, by buying iphones, computers, gaming consoles, etc, we are supporting, on some level, the deplorable working conditions around the world. That is not to say, however, that it's not the proper thing to make a stand at some point.

"there is no such thing as bad press" I hadn't hear of fez before the controversy and now I'm considering getting it because it looks good and I don't care about Fish.

So he doesn't like current Japanese games? Well me either, they suck, I've rarely liked any games produced solely in Japan..

Oh god... I MUST BE SOME KIND OF RACIST.

*Watches first 30 seconds....

You probably get accused of trolling because you actively promote and encourage it, Jim.

*Watches rest of the video....

Agreed. If we decided not to support something because of one asshole in any group, it would be nearly impossible to support anything!

RaikuFA:

Saulkar:

RaikuFA:
I also won't support Earthworm Jim. After all the shit Tommy Tallarico said on his show why should I support a racist douchebag?

Wait. What did Tommy ever say, or is this a sarcastic counterpoint?

His JD show, he would bash games just based on what country they were made from, he bashed the Rave Master game not because of its gameplay(which from what I heard was bad) and the like, but because it was based off of an anime he never heard of and it was Gamecube exclusive. Then he went to a tangent on how any game based off of an anime should never be made no matter what.

He also gave Brawl a 3 out of 10 not because of how it played or whatnot, but because Kirby was in it.

ah .... that asshole, i remember that short little fucker now. he hated a LOT of games as i recall, even KoToR, and for a really petty reason as i recall, so i kinda stopped watching after that. since, like you said, he didn't base his review on any part of that game that should matter to the players experience. (that said i hated EWJ anyway so you couldn't give me a copy)

but back OT:
the 'dickish' factor of a dev depends on whats said. boycotting game cause a dev thinks Japaneses games suck now days seems silly, more so when several Japaneses dev's them selves have said the same. the line i think, well for me anyway, is when the dev is a dick for really no reason, like .... -.- EVERY PRESS RELEASE about that 'DMC' wanna be coming out, the guy actually had the gall to badmouth the people he wants to sell his 'dime store knock off' to (then there's all the other shit he did to fuck the game up ...) and just generally be a dick, so i refuse to get that game when it comes out.

The more time goes on, the more I appreciate what Jim shares on the Jimquisition. When the show started on the Escapist, I thought it was "meh" at best, but now I find the show entertaining, informatitive, and, more and more often recently, insightful.

Yahtzee tends to lean towards cynical/elitist "nearly all AAA games are shit, indie titles are where the good stuff is" approach and the Extra Creditz team leans more towards the "games-are-art uber-hippie" stereotype; and while I still really enjoy hearing what they all have to say, I think Jim gives more of an "everyman" balanced approach that I find myself gravitating to more and more.

Keep up the good work, Jim.

RaikuFA:

I already mentioned Tommy's.

X Play:

I took a look again and Jon Blows makes sense.

And Bioware

What you said Tommy said was way out of line. I can't stand people who just completely disregard stuff like that. Sounds like a massive prick. That X Play review doesn't really sound like bigotry, just some unintelligent people talking about a generic rubbish JRPG. And I actually agree with a lot of what that Bioware guy had to say.

Fawxy:
I don't care up to a certain point, but there's a certain "assholishness threshold" I have.

I.e., if someone or a company is TOO much of an asshole, I won't do business with them.

I kinda have this too, but to me it's less of a threshold and more of a chart. I'm too lazy to draw up an actual chart, so for the sake of argument, let's just this letter L

On the vertical side, we have Developer Assholeishness (I know these science terms can be tricky, but stay with me :P) and on the horizontal side we have My personal interest in the game (I have to go with this over how "good" a game is, since that's entirely subjective) To make this simple, let's say that it's just numbered by single points (1, 2, 3, 4, etc. etc.)

If a developer is an asshole level of 5, then the game must be at least 4 or above for me to pay for it.

Admittedly, off the top of my head I can't think of any games I have refused to buy because of the developer, but I do try to pay attention to both sides and make a decision based on what's before me.

I know nothing about this current controversy, but I admit that seeing the video here, Fez does look like a pretty fun game, and I might check it out if the price is right.

Now here's a question I have for everyone else. Have you ever been on the opposite side of this? Have you ever bought a game you weren't super duper interested in solely because you wanted to support the people making it?

I admit I find it sad how soft we've all become such that we can't even associate with those with differing opinions as far away as a monatary transaction anymore. I mean, I don't expect people to put up with repeatedly and overtly stated opinions they don't agree with, but if we cry foul at someone's out of context, poorly thought out statement, then the thought police are here and they are us.

Scrustle:

RaikuFA:

I already mentioned Tommy's.

X Play:

I took a look again and Jon Blows makes sense.

And Bioware

What you said Tommy said was way out of line. I can't stand people who just completely disregard stuff like that. Sounds like a massive prick. That X Play review doesn't really sound like bigotry, just some unintelligent people talking about a generic rubbish JRPG. And I actually agree with a lot of what that Bioware guy had to say.

Actually, AI2 got really good reviews besides them. It is a fun game(don't try 3, its utter shit) and suprisingly, Mana Khemia got a good review from them(although the reviewer wasn't Adam but some other guy who did his research.)

And I still think harrasing someone over their taste in games over what Bioware said needs to go away but won't.

RaikuFA:

Actually, AI2 got really good reviews besides them. It is a fun game(don't try 3, its utter shit) and suprisingly, Mana Khemia got a good review from them(although the reviewer wasn't Adam but some other guy who did his research.)

Fair enough. I've never heard of any of those games so I can't contest it.

That is just complicated. To simple things up: is their product by any means supporting an idea you are up against? If it is... Well do not buy and encourage others to not buy either. If not I'm okay with it.
Eg.: a game like SC Conviction 2 (this game does not exist) becomes a war propaganda about supporting the war in Iraq. I will not buy it.

I'll always support art over an artist, Fish wasn't even being racist, there are a lot of Japanese games that do suck, like A LOT. But I love Earthworm Jim, don't care that the guy who wrote Shadow Complex was a homophobe and will still watch and love Braveheart.

Scrustle:

RaikuFA:

Actually, AI2 got really good reviews besides them. It is a fun game(don't try 3, its utter shit) and suprisingly, Mana Khemia got a good review from them(although the reviewer wasn't Adam but some other guy who did his research.)

Fair enough. I've never heard of any of those games so I can't contest it.

Thank you. The games aren't groundbreaking but the Atelier series did invent item crafting. If you can, sereiously try out Mana Khemia, it has the biggest twist I've ever seen in a game.

I will buy Fez later though, once I get some MS points.

Great point here, Jim. It's a very subjective line, and I'm glad you pointed that out. Many people are keen on boycotting things lately but they don't seem to realize that they probably have supported malpractices/assholes before for a game they've gone on to adore.

As for me, I can separate art from artist depending on how much I love the art in question. If Miyamoto pulled a Phil Fish towards American games on the cusp of the release of a Zelda game he directed, he'd be wrong as shit for doing it, but I wouldn't be able to hear you over the sound of me running to a store to buy the game 5 times. I adore Zelda. It gave me my love of games, and no douchebaggery will ever take that away from me.

Phil Fish on the other hand, worked on an indie retro puzzle platformer. I have a lot of disdain towards that genre. If I'd cared about what he said about Japan, I'd have even less reason to pay attention to it because it's now become "another indie retro puzzle platformer, whose distinction is that it was made by a not-too-humble douchebag."

I'll buy Fez eventually, and I bet it'll be fun once I start liking that kind of stuff again, but I don't blame anyone who can't stomach supporting him when what people call him "walking the walk" is a game that's part of the next biggest cash grab genre since the first person shooter.

This seems like a non-issue to me. After reading what he said, I'm having trouble coming away with any sort of racist sentiment. In fact, I'm inclined to agree with him in that modern Japanese games don't stack up well against the western market. It's a shame since most of my favorite childhood games were Japanese made. I'd like to see a return to the glory days for Konami, Square/Enix and the like.

What... no ME3 this week :P

Not sure what to think, this is the first i've heard of it.

I didn't buy LA Noire because of the working conditions reported under Brendan McNamara, I haven't bought a COD game since the Infinity ward offices were raided and their bonuses stolen, and i gave up on wow because they signed their souls over to activision for kinda the same reasons as COD.

Fish was ignorant and was fool enough to troll back to the trolls on twitter, but he's a long way from being a tyranical boss and an outright corporate thief. I don't have any real interest in Fez but he'd want to do something a bit more extreme than speak thoughtlessly for me to actively boycott him.

As always good video Jim.

beetrain:

Bobic:
Of course, the best solution is to learn absolutely nothing about anyone who creates anything. That way you can buy whatever you want. Ignorance is bliss and all that.

I'm not sure I'd agree. For better or worse, I always find it interesting to learn more about the mind behind a product,their inspirations and whatnot.

I followed Fish on twitter for quite a while before the Japan stuff, and he always seemed like a pretty abrasive jerk (earliest tweet I remember was something like "People keep saying Fez would look great on 3DS. Nothing looks good on 3DS, you idiots"), but I never considered not buying his game, because it seemed so sweet and fun.

Wow, he sounds pretty cool. Better than CliffyB's hurt feelings over Gears of Wahhhhhh! 3 scoring less than the previous 2 GoW's.

Really, we need more people with the balls/Thatchers to just be douches.

chiefohara:

and i gave up on wow because they signed their souls over to activision for kinda the same reasons as COD.

It's ignorance like this that makes me facepalm and dig up wiki articles to prove a point. The parent company of Blizzard made the deal with Activision. The actual say Blizzard had in that is not stated, but they would have no discernible reason to merge with Activision. They already made billions off their games. No reason to share that with another group and hence why they retained a degree of autonomy (for a while, anyway).

The reason they've gone downhill is because they couldn't rip off Warhammer anymore.

image

-------

Instead of calling the guy a racist, why not try to refute his point about the Japanese industry?

Fish was just saying some games suck, that's an opinion and I'll play his game (once they've patched it).

Mel Gibson shows his anti-semitism to the world, that's racist and I haven't felt comfortable watching one of his movies since.

Jim Sterling...notorious self entitled asswipe...and I wouldn't have him any way :) As for the Fish wearing Fez it's a pity that one guy ruins the opinion of such a great game

When I went to a Hammerfall concert in my country I was surprised how insecure and childish Joacim Cans acted, it was like he was compensating for something. Still, I like the music and that didn't stop me from enjoying it. The character of one man didn't stop me from enjoying the product of the group.

I support art that artists create so long as those artists don't do things that completely offend me.
As far as games/movies are concerned, it depends on the weight of the offence, and also the other contributors.

Ohh.. sorry I didn't see you there... was too busy Google: Jim Sterling is a douc...

As much as I have tried to hate on Jim, he does get it right more often than not and for some pretty gosh darn reasonable ways... if this gig doesn't work out for him, maybe he will become a weather man?

Consumer awareness is an interesting statement, in that some developers do have quite the following and certainly this leads to a certain consumer confidence and perhaps expectation on further products and projects that they develop.

Perhaps a certain consistency in whatever medium one wants to engage in?

Though, the phrase "the internet is not your friend" is also becoming more pervasive, and in that, as a developer or a figure head for a particular brand or product, one may take some of the hard lessons learned in the court of public appeals.

Perhaps this is a segway into a certain "maturity" that is becoming "required" rather than nice to have in an age of Youtube and Twitter. Ultimately, artist or Nay! One may be in a position in which one is the consummate salesman. Extraneous commentary on what one believes or does not believe seems fundamentally contrary to a sound business practice.

Is this something taught in art schools? How to be poor?

(Personally)

I would much rather hear "our development was influenced by the works of so and so..." <- appeal to nostalgia and respect for elders.

Coupled with

"we want to take it to a new direction and give the audience something they have never seen/thought about/experienced..." <- insert clever nonsense here

Stealing others power through kindness is the hallmark of a good leader. Let em be poor, tough lesson only a fool understands.

Loosing in 1000 sales to some tripe, at 1 dollar a sale, is $1,000... must have MONEY TO BURN, cause by my kindergarten math... it was a 1,000 dollar mistake.

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