Kickstarter: Proceed with Caution

 Pages PREV 1 2
 

DrVornoff:

DustyDrB:
Maybe I'm naive, but I assume everyone (OK...just about everyone) knows that backing a project on Kickstarter isn't like buying a game off a shelf. The details will be fuzzy, and there will always be a risk. I just assume that people in general accept that risk.

The Retake Mass Effect movement showed me that there are a lot of people who don't.

Retake Mass Effect is a bit of a different thing, though I don't feel like getting into that.

The risk is greater when backing a project on Kickstarter. The details are fuzzier, and it's just so early in development (if at all). If that risk isn't apparent to someone who backs the project, then I wonder how it is they figured out how to turn the computer on.

Mygaffer:

DustyDrB:
Maybe I'm naive, but I assume everyone (OK...just about everyone) knows that backing a project on Kickstarter isn't like buying a game off a shelf. The details will be fuzzy, and there will always be a risk. I just assume that people in general accept that risk.

I know cynicism soon follows the tide of goodwill, but hopefully people won't overreact when a project fails. You're not buying a game, you're backing the development of it. Receiving the game (assuming you donated enough, which usually isn't that much) is a bonus. Despite the risk and the inevitable blowback in reaction to scams or failure, Kickstarter is great to me because it can reinvigorate niche genres.

You are naive. There are a ton of self important and entitled people who will flip out if a project they backed gets cancelled. Expect people to curse and moan, to say they are going to sue, to say they got "ripped off". I am just talking about a legit project that fails. I don't think most people even realize what exactly Kickstarter is or what it means when they back a game.

I really have trouble believing most people don't understand the difference between backing a Kickstarter project and buying a game off the shelf (or Steam...or whatever). We'll see, though.

The good thing is that if they think backing a project meant they are guaranteed to get a game they'd love, they are wrong. Objectively wrong. So when that day comes, the rest of us can shower them in sympathy for their misunderstanding and constructive criticism.

wintercoat:

Rack:

Everyone except the FTC who agreed he had a point. I don't think it would ultimately be all that helpful if publishers couldn't lie blatantly and openly about the features of a game and instead had to lie sneakily but the FTC do and exist to enforce that line.

It was a woman at the Better Business Bureau that stated that Bioware and EA were guilty of false advertising. And I agree, they are. However, this was not a case that needed federal attention. Filing with the FTC was moronic, and again a clear attention grab.

Oops, I should have looked into this more closely before posting, I hadn't grasped the relation between the FTC and BBB and had assumed the FTC was an equivalent to our ASA (Advertising Standards Authority). An ASA complaint of false advertising would be perfectly reasonable since that's exactly what it was but it seems the FTC is not the place for such complaints.

Technically, not only are you backing up a project you are interested in getting but also showing that you are confident about the team who is making it happen. If the team fails, the project fails and it's more or less your own fault for gambling for the losing team.

I just hope most people don't outweight the construction workers over the building for these Kickstarter projects.

DustyDrB:

DrVornoff:

DustyDrB:
Maybe I'm naive, but I assume everyone (OK...just about everyone) knows that backing a project on Kickstarter isn't like buying a game off a shelf. The details will be fuzzy, and there will always be a risk. I just assume that people in general accept that risk.

The Retake Mass Effect movement showed me that there are a lot of people who don't.

Retake Mass Effect is a bit of a different thing, though I don't feel like getting into that.

The risk is greater when backing a project on Kickstarter. The details are fuzzier, and it's just so early in development (if at all). If that risk isn't apparent to someone who backs the project, then I wonder how it is they figured out how to turn the computer on.

Mygaffer:

DustyDrB:
Maybe I'm naive, but I assume everyone (OK...just about everyone) knows that backing a project on Kickstarter isn't like buying a game off a shelf. The details will be fuzzy, and there will always be a risk. I just assume that people in general accept that risk.

I know cynicism soon follows the tide of goodwill, but hopefully people won't overreact when a project fails. You're not buying a game, you're backing the development of it. Receiving the game (assuming you donated enough, which usually isn't that much) is a bonus. Despite the risk and the inevitable blowback in reaction to scams or failure, Kickstarter is great to me because it can reinvigorate niche genres.

You are naive. There are a ton of self important and entitled people who will flip out if a project they backed gets cancelled. Expect people to curse and moan, to say they are going to sue, to say they got "ripped off". I am just talking about a legit project that fails. I don't think most people even realize what exactly Kickstarter is or what it means when they back a game.

I really have trouble believing most people don't understand the difference between backing a Kickstarter project and buying a game off the shelf (or Steam...or whatever). We'll see, though.

The good thing is that if they think backing a project meant they are guaranteed to get a game they'd love, they are wrong. Objectively wrong. So when that day comes, the rest of us can shower them in sympathy for their misunderstanding and constructive criticism.

Are you younger? Sometimes smarter people overestimate the majority. Then as they grow older and more experienced they realize there are a lot of idiots in the world. I can't say that 50%+1 of people don't understand exactly how Kickstarter works, but I would bet it's close.

I'm yet to see a single person on a gaming website who isn't aware of the fact that crowdsourcing means gambling.

Sure there are people IN THE WORLD who don't know this, but all of the few ten thousands who got into it since the Double Fine Adventure/Wasteland 2 explosion heard from it on gaming websites, and those constantly keep nattering about it with the same vaguely paranoid tone as elderly people talk about online stores. "Whaat??!! Paying for things that you don't even see? How do you know that they really exist? I don't trust these newfangled ideas!"

Ahhh how soon we forget...

Donor beware one would say... although "being" the kickstarter... may be an interesting study of creative accounting... gunna have to look into that.

People just have to remember exactly what an investment is. Sometimes things go tits up, just have a little cry and try again if you have the moolah.

draythefingerless:

Cry Wolf:

draythefingerless:
PUTTING A PETITION WITH THE FCC

Oh no! Consumers go through the correct means when products are falsely advertised! How dare they compromise artistic integrity by complaining when something was falsely advertised!

Sigh.

You know what? Disagreeing with the Retake Mass Effect movement is fine. Even loathing the movement is fine. However, complaining about people going through the proper channels when a product was obviously falsely advertised is just bloody stupid. Why should games be exempt from false advertising laws? Why is it a false sense of entiltement when we expect that games can't just blatantly lie to get sales?

TL;DR - You sound like an idiot who has jumped on the crying over "something something entiltement" fad.

Shamus Young:
Kickstarter: Proceed with Caution

Shamus takes a peek into Kickstarter game funding.

Read Full Article

I really hope you're right, because I believe the Kickstarter method of funding won't survive and I desperately want it to. I mean, I'm getting a proper bloody Shadowrun game out of it making Kickstarter the most awesome thing since Inception. How could I not love it?

lol so its ok now to sue people on subjective terms? learn what youre talking about buddy. im surprised youre complaining about the FCC thing, wich is the ridiculous thing, and not about the Retake movement, wich is a sane thing despite being a bit guilt ridden. hey i didnt like that i paid 2 euros for limbo and it ammounts to a shitty short game that i can play tons better for free on newgrounds. im gonna sue the guys who made it for falsely advertising a game with rich and deep complex themes, cause i didnt get that. sounds about right doesnt it? oh hey the new street fighter game was putting a character in one of its trailers for about 5 seconds, but that character isnt in the final game. SUE SUE SUEEEEEEE FOR MAKING DEVELOPMENT CHOICES THAT AFFECT ME. actually i remember people complaining that the trailer for SF4 overhyped the game and they felt let down that the final game wasnt so awesome. :/.

The problem is, that's not what the complaint is about (also, complaint doesn't actually mean a law suit. That word does not mean what you think it means). While I'm a bit sketchy on the specifics (e.g., who said what) but the law suit was actually over a statement about how the endings would work (or in this case, wouldn't work) when in fact, that was false. There weren't any subjective terms there.

With the Street Fighter example, if we were shown that we could play said character - then it would be false advertising. If we were shown we could fight that character, then it would be false advertising. It gets a little sketchy just showing it. That said, my entire legal background is a few semesters of Legal Studies in high school.

People complaining about an overhyped trailer? Eh, whatever. If they put in a complaint about false advertising, then we're getting back to true gamer entitlement issues.

Oh, and on a side note: it's fucking hard to read your mess of a post. You might want to edit it a bit. Or go take some remedial English classes if that doesn't work.

I think the internet amplifies the voices of those who don't know how to let go. Heck, my own ranting here suggests a certain grip on society that I am not willing to give up. To be honest, the retake ME3 movement is a small section of the people who bought it (I just bought it today). Most people will be willing to section themselves off from the result enough so that if they lose their imagined investment. However, the internet magnifies negative responses and the media loves to pour salt on wounds and exaggerate conflict so we'd definitely hear about something going south. The real answer to me is to just kill off EA and Activision as companies and let the process keep going but that has nothing to do with this article.

Shamus Young:
So enjoy the honeymoon while it lasts. I have high hopes for Kickstarter, but I suspect there will be a bit of a shake-out period as everyone figures out how this new funding model is going to work.

I think the crowd sourcing model will have 2 major tests - the first being the failure of a high profile project and the second being the actions of the developers of high profile projects post-release.

I can skip the first as you've covered that... but I think what happens with Double Fine, inXile, Hare Brained Schemes and the like when it's time to start looking at new projects after the current crop are out is going to be another test for the crowd sourcing model. Double Fine and inXile are, for lack of a better term, the headline acts for crowd sourced game development so their fortunes and future decisions could have a major impact on the model.

Of course, should only the high profile, industry veteran led projects succeed that too would have an impact on the crowd sourcing model, leading it to be fenced off for everyone else by the perception that you have to have name value for it to be of any use.

I think the worst outcome, even worse than crowd sourcing just curling up and dying, is major publishers deciding that the crowd sourced model is even better than pre-orders for recouping as much cash as possible before launch.

I can finally own a greasy box that was touched by Shamus Young?! Sign me up. Sign me up right now!

There are still plenty of mid-budget games, the problem is, since they're not made by Bioware Arts, or Activision-Duty, no one really cares enough about them to spread the word, and compensate for the low marketing budget. I am looking at you mainstream US gaming press, you're doing a bad job at promoting games.
You've got Stardock, Paradox Interactive, 1C Company, Kalypso Media, Deep Silver and a ton more, that publish/produce mid budget games. Not all of them have a high life expectancy though, like dtp or JoWooD, because they tend to aim to high for the budgets they have, and we end up with a lot of unplayable games.

unacomn:
There are still plenty of mid-budget games, the problem is, since they're not made by Bioware Arts, or Activision-Duty, no one really cares enough about them to spread the word, and compensate for the low marketing budget. I am looking at you mainstream US gaming press, you're doing a bad job at promoting games.

I think that many middle tier developed titles being PC titles doesn't help either when the mainstream gaming media is primarily focused on consoles.

Shamus Young:
Shamus Young is currently setting up a Kickstarter page to get the funds for a large Coke and a pizza. Pledge now and you can have the greasy box.

I'd be wary, Kickstarter seems to dislike projects like that...

I view Kickstarter and similar sites in the same way I view gambling: don't spend money you're not willing to lose. If any of the projects I've backed go under, yes it's annoying, but that's the game you have to play. Do you trust the project and/or the people running it enough to gamble on it? If not, back out without putting money down. If you do, you're interested in the potential results, and you have money not doing anything, why not?

Kickstarter projects have risk and eventually one will fail spectacularly. However, I look at the concept as a good thing simply because it is breaking the strangle-hold that big publishers have on on game developers.

My real hope for the project is that it provides competition for publisher based game creation which should improve games overall.

SirBryghtside:

matrix3509:
You don't see other products offering free blowjobs with every purchase, hence why other industries don't have to deal with this shit.

...have you never seen beer adverts?

The beauty here though, is that you're too drunk to remember to complain, though.

mfeff:
Ahhh how soon we forget...

Uh.... Suggestion: If you want to use something as evidence of some people using Kickstarter as a scam in the future, don't use something so goddamn self-important. It ruins the argument. Something Awful's "Awful Kickstarters" thread has, like, dozens of examples of scams to link to.

wintercoat:

albino boo:
We live in the world were gamers take legal action because they don't like the end of story, so the risk is real.

Could people please stop saying shit like this? It was one fucking guy. Since when does one person doing something become a general description of a group of people? By this same logic, we live in a world where gamers hunt down and kill people for killing them in a game.

Just stop bringing up the god damned FTC suit already. It was a clear attention grab, and everyone agrees he was a fucking idiot.

And they said he was technically right but didn't seem to take any legal measures: http://www.bbb.org/blog/2012/04/mass-effect-3-is-having-a-mass-effect-on-its-consumers-for-better-or-worse/

The issue at stake here is, did Bio Ware falsely advertise? Technically, yes, they did.

You people realize that consumers have rights, and they can enforce them, right?

draythefingerless:
lol so its ok now to sue people on subjective terms? learn what youre talking about buddy. im surprised youre complaining about the FCC thing, wich is the ridiculous thing, and not about the Retake movement, wich is a sane thing despite being a bit guilt ridden. hey i didnt like that i paid 2 euros for limbo and it ammounts to a shitty short game that i can play tons better for free on newgrounds. im gonna sue the guys who made it for falsely advertising a game with rich and deep complex themes, cause i didnt get that. sounds about right doesnt it? oh hey the new street fighter game was putting a character in one of its trailers for about 5 seconds, but that character isnt in the final game. SUE SUE SUEEEEEEE FOR MAKING DEVELOPMENT CHOICES THAT AFFECT ME. actually i remember people complaining that the trailer for SF4 overhyped the game and they felt let down that the final game wasnt so awesome. :/.

1) It's called FTC (Federal Trade Commission) not FCC (Federal Communications Commission)

2) He didn't sue anybody, he put up a complaint with them and the BBB (Better Business Bureau), the second already told him he was "technically" right:
http://www.bbb.org/blog/2012/04/mass-effect-3-is-having-a-mass-effect-on-its-consumers-for-better-or-worse/

The issue at stake here is, did Bio Ware falsely advertise? Technically, yes, they did.

3) Hundreds of people complained and the BBB dropped Capcoms rating over them screwing their customers with the entire "Disc Locked Content" fiasco: http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Capcom-Better-Business-Bureau-Rating-Drops-Due-DLC-Fiasco-41305.html

image

4) Consumers have rights, use them or lose them. Huge multinational corporations like Electronic Arts or Capcom are not your friends and don't need you to defend them. They pay PR firms to do that.

Surely to a certain degree, Kickstarter must be used in a sustainable manner? In that if it gets too big, then it will become an victim of it's own success meaning that the whole idea will collapse. But if it is kept niche and a labor of love type of thing then great, it's kept within a knowledge base of individuals who understand the risks.

Look it's easy to make fun of people's ignorance, but people do make mistakes and seeing as I like the idea of kickstarter I hope it continues for as long as possible.

You're going to need to define "indie." To me it means without a publisher and Bastion is published by Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment a company outside the developer.

I'm more worried about what happens when people, who have varied tastes and ideas about how something will turn out, fund a game expecting one thing and get something entirely different in the end. Just because you back a game that sound like its right for you doesn't mean that the end product will meet your expectation (especially when a few thousand backers all have slightly different expectations). What happens when people start to feel that their money was misspent and get more tight fisted and careful to ensure not wasting money again? How long is kick-starter going to be a way for any joe to get his game funded before things start to level out and what will happen to crowd-sourcing after that? Is this just a fad?

draythefingerless:
This Kickstarter thin

StriderShinryu:

DustyDrB:
Maybe I'm naive, but I assume everyone (OK...just about everyone) knows that backing a project on Kickstarter isn't like buying a game off a shelf. The details will be fuzzy, and there will always be a risk. I just assume that people in general accept that risk.

I know cynicism soon follows the tide of goodwill, but hopefully people won't overreact when a project fails. You're not buying a game, you're backing the development of it. Receiving the game (assuming you donated enough, which usually isn't that much) is a bonus. Despite the risk and the inevitable blowback in reaction to scams or failure, Kickstarter is great to me because it can reinvigorate niche genres.

I think the problem is that people already don't treat buying a game off a shelf as buying a game off a shelf. There are already far too many assumptions about the game being made specifically for their tastes and in perfect form technically despite sometimes mountains of evidence that may suggest (or downright state outright) otherwise. And this is for completed titles that they have had months or even years of "warnings" about.

I would rather not take the cynical stance but pre-ownership was already a problem before KickStarter became the big thing so it's rather hard not to.

Actually this is what pisses me off about gamers. The fucking entitlement. That because you bought a game, you have a right to sth other than what you bought off the shelf. Usually its just criticism you hear, wich is fine, criticism and opinions are good for quality check. But then you get shit like Mass Effect 3, with the PUTTING A PETITION WITH THE FCC FOR SUEING BIOWARE and that guilt trick called Retake Mass Effect. Or when you hear about Project 10 dollar or About some Day One DLC, as if the consumer has a say on how the developer makes the game hes selling. People need to diferentiate between what you have a right to and what you dont. This is nothing to do with criticism or with feeling betrayed. Thats ok, you can have those feelings and express them and make them public. Criticism is ok. whats not ok, is telling someone that they screwed you over and that you have a right to sth more, because you bought a 60 dollar game and thought it was gonna be sth it wasnt.

MvC3 didnt come with some characters? ok say that was a bad move, dont say youre entitled to it.
Prothean Day One DLC? Ok say that you feel as if they should of given this with the game, dont say youre entitled to it.
ME3 ending sucks? ok. say it was bad. dont fucking SUE THEM cause it was bad.
Tekken vs SF characters unlockable thru payment? Ok, say this is anti consumerist and a negative note on the game, dont fucking sue them and demand them to unlock it.

People love seeing things in black and white.

And i know, not everyone is lke this, but the outcries out there are like this.

Stop lying, no one is saying they are entitled to anything. Opinions and criticism is exactly what retake me3 and dlc criticism are about. You're the entitled one, entitled to raging about your assumption that these people now criticising in larger numbers must be entitled.

SirBryghtside:
...have you never seen beer adverts?

Yeah, they love to talk about how cold their beer is, and as Kyle Cease has addressed, the coldness of the beer is kind of 100% up to the consumer.

Formica Archonis:

mfeff:
Ahhh how soon we forget...

Uh.... Suggestion: If you want to use something as evidence of some people using Kickstarter as a scam in the future, don't use something so goddamn self-important. It ruins the argument. Something Awful's "Awful Kickstarters" thread has, like, dozens of examples of scams to link to.

Like your link I don't own it. Ergo the link you provided is akin to the video I provided. I no more claim ownership than you can claim ownership. If you feel that it's content is self-important may I suggest you take it up with the creator of said video.

That said, I didn't make an argument.

Nor did I claim that AVGN has done anything immoral, unethical, or illegal.

The video "tangentially" does make a case for donation style cash infusions not being tied to any A) oversight, B) guarantee as to "how" money is to be used.

Now, perhaps you could of said... that's an interesting video, if not for it's own self importance, how about you check out this link?

You didn't.

You attacked it as "being" self important without saying why.

You said I ruined an argument, I did no such thing because I made no argument, I made a broken statement, punctuated by a random video, and mentioned looking into the financials of "starting" a kickstarter. You addressed none of that.

I posted a video, you posted a link. Great!

Hey but thanks for alleging to my own self-importance. At the going rate, I fit right in... hell, we should be friends.

mfeff:
You said I ruined an argument, I did no such thing because I made no argument, I made a broken statement, punctuated by a random video, and mentioned looking into the financials of "starting" a kickstarter. You addressed none of that.

I posted a video, you posted a link. Great!

Hey but thanks for alleging to my own self-importance. At the going rate, I fit right in... hell, we should be friends.

Okay, then. That's a rather more aggrieved response than I was ever expecting, but assuming you're not trolling me and I really did offend you that badly, I apologize and promise to not comment on what you post again lest I be similarly offensive.

Formica Archonis:

mfeff:
You said I ruined an argument, I did no such thing because I made no argument, I made a broken statement, punctuated by a random video, and mentioned looking into the financials of "starting" a kickstarter. You addressed none of that.

I posted a video, you posted a link. Great!

Hey but thanks for alleging to my own self-importance. At the going rate, I fit right in... hell, we should be friends.

Okay, then. That's a rather more aggrieved response than I was ever expecting, but assuming you're not trolling me and I really did offend you that badly, I apologize and promise to not comment on what you post again lest I be similarly offensive.

Nah dude it's cool. In fact on one hand I agree that the video is everything you said it was. However, it's an opinion piece... his channel is geared towards "a critique of critics". His yahtzee stuff is really funny... in a certain light. That said, and on the other hand I find that his opinion is just that, and transparently so. Making it no different than 99 percent of the content of the escapist.

I found it fitting especially when Shamus said "...enjoy the honeymoon". There was a similarity in tone, someone sarcastic, somewhat annoyed. I focused on the emotional tangent rather than the explicit content or even context.

So... comment away, please! I enjoy a good debate, so long as we are to have one. It's something that I find sorely lacking in the halls of the forums. As the saying goes, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. ;)

While we are here... I do dislike heavily leveraged ontological arguments... so if you make one, and I come off as butt-hurt... well, I am generally... it's an annoyance with the framing normally, mostly because it's oft times... done poorly.

Kickstarter has a project which is blatantly violating their ToS, in which the project creator hasn't even posted an update to the backers in 6 MONTHS 19 DAYS and the project is 17 MONTHS behind its ship date. I contacted them and they made it clear they have no intention of honoring their own ToS they entered into with their backers and the project creator and are refusing to have the creator refund the pledges as promised. Many other people who have tried kickstarter have experienced this. Kickstarter needs to actually follow their own rules or cease scamming people into a "safe" system by promising refunds they refuse to deliver.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hern/waldok-wall-plug-in-speaker-charger-for-the-ipod-n/posts

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#IsACreaLegaObliToFulfThePromOfTheiProj

 Pages PREV 1 2

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here