The Banning of Meta Knight

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Fappy:
I think the issue lies in the fact that the developers never intended the game to be competitive, in fact the head developer insisted that they design the game to be noncompetitive. When you've got the guys who made the game saying they don't want to see the game being played seriously at tournaments there is a problem. They put in "tripping" for a reason. Brawl is a really fun game, I'll admit, but if its balanced at all it is balanced around random items, final smashes and random maps that can kill you. Trying to find any true balance in its metagame is a fool's errand. Banning one character won't fix what is fundamentally broken from the get-go.

Pokemon is the same.

Honestly I've never seen anything wrong with fans making sort of rules and the like to make the game a game. Yeah there is always going to be strong choices but that's life.

Daystar Clarion:
Like others have said, Smash Bros was never meant to be a seriously competitive game in the first place.

Half the fun of the game is it's unpredictable nature. Take away the items and the stages that can kill you and it's not Smash Bros anymore.

Amen to that.

Besides, I personally didn't notice any unbalancing issues with Meta Knight, sure his attacks have a faster frame rate, but if I remember correctly, I had to unleash alot of damage as him before I could knock foes off-screen, and like Kirby, he can somewhat be easily knocked off-screen himself.

but then, I've mostly been playing as Bowser....

MahouSniper:
Competitive players actually actively annoy me in this case for two reasons.
1) Any game where you need to remove the lion's share of the content in order to play it competitively clearly wasn't intended to be competitive, and they refuse to acknowledge this.
2) Their "super srs" attitude towards the game means that if there's ever a public SSMB game at, say, an anime con these people absolutely refuse to play anything but no items, only Final Destination. It ruins everyone else's ability to have fun with the game because they must play it like it's life or death.

You know, I don't mind competitive gaming much, in fact I like to watch the occasional Starcraft 2 match here and there, but I have to agree. Removing half the game and characters just ceases to be fun. I HATE flat stages like Final Destination.....like most of the people here I'm assuming, because cmon, its a long flat stage with no stage hazards. BORING.

I'm going to make an assumption on why the game is so popular competitively and why people care so much.......because its not a very skill intensive game. Compare it to any shooter, fighter, or rts and it doesn't even stand up to the worst in the competitive scene. More people can play Brawl "good" and hence more have fun with it. And what's more achieveable to a 16 year old, beating a Smash Bros tournament, or beating koreans who train every day at a Starcraft tournament?

370999:

Fappy:
I think the issue lies in the fact that the developers never intended the game to be competitive, in fact the head developer insisted that they design the game to be noncompetitive. When you've got the guys who made the game saying they don't want to see the game being played seriously at tournaments there is a problem. They put in "tripping" for a reason. Brawl is a really fun game, I'll admit, but if its balanced at all it is balanced around random items, final smashes and random maps that can kill you. Trying to find any true balance in its metagame is a fool's errand. Banning one character won't fix what is fundamentally broken from the get-go.

Pokemon is the same.

Honestly I've never seen anything wrong with fans making sort of rules and the like to make the game a game. Yeah there is always going to be strong choices but that's life.

Pokemon at least is a turn based game centered around statistics so that it's easy to characterize what does and does not work. Most of the imbalnce in pokemon comes from two things:
1.Single player, Pokemon is a jrpg that you level up in. so the pokemon that appear in the beginning of the game are weaker that the pokemon in the end game to create balance. However online this balance does not exist because everybody has access to every pokemon, thus making any pokemon from the beginning largely useless.

2. Themeing: pokemon have themes that they are associated with. It's where all of the types come from, they aren't just arbitrarily handed out. Take for instance Samurott; Samurott has a big ass horn so it gets mega horn. However before mega horn was exclusive to Heracross when it was introduced so megahorn is bug type. bug>grass>water so this allows Samurott to counter pokemon that would normally wreck water types. It works the other way too. Shedinja is a ghost, it is also a gimmick pokemon with 1 hp. final gambit is a sacrificial attack that does damage equal to the users remaining hp. Shedinja seems like a pokemon that would sacrifice itself, its a creepy hollow cocoon possessed by a ghost. But final gambit + 1 hp is absolutely worthless.

Now I feel like a nerd.

Metaknight is a popular character. And Super Smash Bros. Brawl isn't meant to be taken seriously or be all that competitive at all.

Don't get mad at your local car dealership, just because your new minivan failed to work as a floatation device.

My question is:

How will this affect the "No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination" metagame?

i think the fundamental issue is people trying to make a fair competition out of a game that was meant to do nothing but give you the opportunity to have donkey kong punch pickachu. games like starcraft 2 are at least aware of and designed around the competitive scene, but the smash bros. tourney players are always going to be some of the most hilariously deluded and self-defeating competitors in my book.

i mean, its like trying to make squeezing a banana a viable projectile weapon. if your gonna do it, its supposed to be a fun little experiment: when you start having heated arguments over the ballistics of cavendish vs grand nain cultivars, your kinda missing the point.

why did nerds having a friendly competition at the arcade have to explode into a whole subset of obsessive competitors who strive to make serious business out of donkey kong punching pikachu? its embarrassing enough that we have people starting riots and murdering each other because their favorite color didnt kick the ball in the hole enough times, do you really want to follow that example?

This is an article about Meta Knight. Why is it, then, that we were given two videos to of Street Fighter, but no clear examples of Meta Knight's apparent advantage, nor even any explanation of what it is that makes him so powerful?

P.S. Thanks

him over there:
[quote="370999" post="6.374361.14505785"][
Pokemon at least is a turn based game centered around statistics so that it's easy to characterize what does and does not work. Most of the imbalnce in pokemon comes from two things:
1.Single player, Pokemon is a jrpg that you level up in. so the pokemon that appear in the beginning of the game are weaker that the pokemon in the end game to create balance. However online this balance does not exist because everybody has access to every pokemon, thus making any pokemon from the beginning largely useless.

2. Themeing: pokemon have themes that they are associated with. It's where all of the types come from, they aren't just arbitrarily handed out. Take for instance Samurott; Samurott has a big ass horn so it gets mega horn. However before mega horn was exclusive to Heracross when it was introduced so megahorn is bug type. bug>grass>water so this allows Samurott to counter pokemon that would normally wreck water types. It works the other way too. Shedinja is a ghost, it is also a gimmick pokemon with 1 hp. final gambit is a sacrificial attack that does damage equal to the users remaining hp. Shedinja seems like a pokemon that would sacrifice itself, its a creepy hollow cocoon possessed by a ghost. But final gambit + 1 hp is absolutely worthless.

Now I feel like a nerd.

Oh yeah. I would also say you've got a case of power creep going on in Pokemon, especially with stuff like shell smash and Quiver dance floating about.

But yeah I completely get it. Gives the people at Smogon a job as well.

PS: Isn't Samurott something like NU? I never thought he was great as a special sweeper, but that is due to the stiff competition with all the water types. So he's not a huge issue.

Salamence with Moxie and Outrage however? Or Speed boost Blaziken?

370999:

him over there:
[quote="370999" post="6.374361.14505785"][
Pokemon at least is a turn based game centered around statistics so that it's easy to characterize what does and does not work. Most of the imbalnce in pokemon comes from two things:
1.Single player, Pokemon is a jrpg that you level up in. so the pokemon that appear in the beginning of the game are weaker that the pokemon in the end game to create balance. However online this balance does not exist because everybody has access to every pokemon, thus making any pokemon from the beginning largely useless.

2. Themeing: pokemon have themes that they are associated with. It's where all of the types come from, they aren't just arbitrarily handed out. Take for instance Samurott; Samurott has a big ass horn so it gets mega horn. However before mega horn was exclusive to Heracross when it was introduced so megahorn is bug type. bug>grass>water so this allows Samurott to counter pokemon that would normally wreck water types. It works the other way too. Shedinja is a ghost, it is also a gimmick pokemon with 1 hp. final gambit is a sacrificial attack that does damage equal to the users remaining hp. Shedinja seems like a pokemon that would sacrifice itself, its a creepy hollow cocoon possessed by a ghost. But final gambit + 1 hp is absolutely worthless.

Now I feel like a nerd.

Oh yeah. I would also say you've got a case of power creep going on in Pokemon, especially with stuff like shell smash and Quiver dance floating about.

But yeah I completely get it. Gives the people at Smogon a job as well.

PS: Isn't Samurott something like NU? I never thought he was great as a special sweeper, but that is due to the stiff competition with all the water types. So he's not a huge issue.

Salamence with Moxie and Outrage however? Or Speed boost Blaziken?

Luckily Blaziken was banned to ubers, however I always hated the fact that the pokemon as a whole got moved when Speed boost alone was what sent it to the top tier. Once Chandelure gets shadow tag my UU team is going to get crippled because it will move up to OU, the problem with the smogon tiers is that they use usage and balance to decide tiers. Archeops is like barely used but it wrecks everything in OU if you give it the chance while not being broken in the lower tiers.Chandelure will go to OU probably once it gets shadow tag because it will be really popular but it could roll in UU without breaking the game or anything. Gotta give Smogon credit though, they sure do keep great track of this stuff.

Also Samurott is NU, I was giving an example about how the themes in the game gives him a totally unprecedented advantage over his supposed counters. Just in the NU tier though pretty much.

ElektroNeko:
But what I kind of miss in this article: Why did Meta Knight players win so much? What is it about Meta Knight that makes him win most of the times?

He's fast between the attacks.

Unlike Ganondorf for example, which is really slow.

MetaKnight, Olimar, Sonic, Mario are sme of the strongest character, that is according to pros, I play with Lucas and Link.

TheBobmus:
Wait, what, these are good characters? I've been playing Brawl all wrong, it would seem.

correct.

in order to be any good, you have to play NO ITEMS, STOCK, FOX ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION.

Not to mention out of all the levels available, nine out of ten are banned from tournament play.

most of the reasons? you can fall off the map easily.

NuclearShadow:
I find it sort of silly out of all the games to have a serious competition on this was one of them. Don't get me wrong it is indeed a fun game but was never meant to be taken in anyway serious. Due to this factor the game also gets a pass on being unbalanced. But this should also disqualify the game from playing in a serious tournament.

Why? Why should it get a pass because it's supposed to be fun? Wouldn't a game that's designed to be fun but also balanced, so a good enough person can win with a character of their choice be inherently more fun than a game where whoever's using the god character at the time gets an advantage?

Dryk:

NuclearShadow:
I find it sort of silly out of all the games to have a serious competition on this was one of them. Don't get me wrong it is indeed a fun game but was never meant to be taken in anyway serious. Due to this factor the game also gets a pass on being unbalanced. But this should also disqualify the game from playing in a serious tournament.

Why? Why should it get a pass because it's supposed to be fun? Wouldn't a game that's designed to be fun but also balanced, so a good enough person can win with a character of their choice be inherently more fun than a game where whoever's using the god character at the time gets an advantage?

That's the problem. Super Smash Bros. is not balanced. So, trying to make a fair tournament out of it is self-defeating foolswork.

Lugbzurg:
Metaknight is a popular character. And Super Smash Bros. Brawl isn't meant to be taken seriously or be all that competitive at all.

Don't get mad at your local car dealership, just because your new minivan failed to work as a floatation device.

Yep, this is my thought as well. I personally liken it to wanting chocolate ice cream but instead buying vanilla ice cream and just dumping a lot of chocolate sauce on it. Sure you might be able to make something that sort of tastes like chocolate ice cream out of it but if chocolate ice cream is what you want, just buy chocolate ice cream. Smash bros can be made into a reasonable facsimile of a serious fighting game if you mess with it enough, but if what you want is a serious fighting game then buy one of those instead. There are so many excellent ones out there these days. By deconstructing Smash and removing many of it's features you're just taking away a lot of what makes it what it is.

I guess to each their own. Personally, I've never taken SSB (or any fighting game, tbh) that seriously enough to play it competitively. While I could prolly develop the skills to be semi-decent and play at some kind of low professional level, I have a hard enough time just trying to stay on top in Battlefield, CoD, and Halo matches. I'm not going to try and go into genres that I know I'm probably going to get my ass kicked.

That, and honestly, the techniques and quirks of Brawl professional play baffle and scare me at times. The most technical move I can use in Brawl is Peach's glide... and that's really not saying very much. That's really stretching the definition, actually.

Though I do watch some professional Brawl play on YouTube, and I've always found Meta Knight matches a bit boring, since they start to fall into themselves. My favorite match, actually, was a really engaging fight between Olimar and the Ice Climbers, so I hope to see more matches like that in some future tourney vids.

Not sure why Brawl (Or the Smash Bros. series in general) gets so much hate. Sure, it's not super technical stuff like Street Fighter, but it doesn't need to be.

Not sure what I think about them banning Meta Knight, tho. I'd have to see what makes him 'broken', if anything. What I've found with Brawl is if some particular way of fighting doesn't work, there's always a plethora of other options, although they may not be immediately obvious.

The only thing that comes to mind as possibly being broken in Brawl is Sonic's Final Smash. It's really fast and if you play your cards right, it doesn't really matter how your opponent dodges, you will get a few hits in. That and it lasts a pretty long time.

My two cents.

Well, there goes the only character I was good with in SSBB.

I'm in no way plugged in to the metagame of Smash Bros, but I am for Pokemon. Admittedly it's not a fighting game, but it still falls under the same tier issues. People play as characters because other people say that they are good, therefore more people develop more tactics, techniques, and situational knowledge that cements those characters into their top spots.

Sure, Meta Knight isn't completely the same because he has objective advantages over every character, but some new unbeatable will rise to take his place after the ban.

I have probably used Meta Knight like twice. I always use my favorite character Pikachu. Why? Cause he is adorible, powerful, cuddly, cute, amazing *Turns into pokemon fan-club president from Red/Blue* fantastic, sweet, magnificent *Goes on forever*
Oh sorry I took so much time. Here have a Rare Candy.
*Gives away Rare Candies*

Lol, plenty of TF2 weapons aren't allowed in competitive play. Why should SSBB be any different?

It doesn't matter at all if a game is suppose to be competitive. Most competitive games aren't designed with that in mind. No one expected Starcraft or Street Fighter to take off like they did and became competitive before that was even a thing. They were balanced, and people took to them. Hell people were willing to offer prizes for being good at them.

Psssh, stop trying to balance a game that is inherently broken. It's a party game its not supposed to be a competition game.

If you want it to be super ultra mega fair then why not force everyone to play the same character? It'd be boring but it fits your goal. Rather then being based on chance or luck, its supposed to be based on 'skill.' What's more skillful then giving everyone the same controls. I suppose people also put in this notion of 'strategy.' but aren't the interaction with the mechanics at the heart of that argument? If you have the same moves, how you use them becomes the strategy rather then choosing a move set, that might be unbalanced, and then choosing how to use them.

Whatever, I'm never going to understand how people can stand to watch other people play games and call it entertainment. I understand games but I don't understand sports.

370999:

Pokemon is the same.

Not really...

As far back as Gen 3, you could tell that the developers were trying to keep the Legendary Pokemon out of competitive play. In Emerald, the Battle Frontier banned a small set of the most obviously powerful Pokemon. Why? Because the Battle Frontier was meant to have a stronger focus on strategic battling, rather than the grind-friendly standard campaign. This tradition would continue into Gen 4 and 5, where similar bans were in effect for online matches. The developers outright recognize that these Pokemon are incredibly overpowered, so while they still let you steamroll over the Elite 4 with a level 100 Mewtwo, they also make you put Mewtwo away when dealing with another human being. It's like how BlazBlue won't let you use Unlimited Characters in online matches.

Of course, Smogon then comes in and starts labeling other Pokemon as overpowered, like Blaziken and Garchomp, while sending others down a tier, like Mew.

And this is why I stay away from any sort of competitive scene...

And I though that Kirby at that skill level was OP...

The game is very unbalanced, that was obvious from day one.

Don't worry they'll just update it...oh wait :U

I kinda want to host an all items, full spawn rate, random stage, random char tournament.

I think it would be more fun than the stereotypical "no items final destination" thing most have going on.

Kalezian:

TheBobmus:
Wait, what, these are good characters? I've been playing Brawl all wrong, it would seem.

correct.

in order to be any good, you have to play NO ITEMS, STOCK, FOX ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION.

Not to mention out of all the levels available, nine out of ten are banned from tournament play.

most of the reasons? you can fall off the map easily.

Does it really count as 'good' if you have to switch off a lot of the game in order to be good?

I played Brawl on Final Destination without items once. It felt...disturbing.

Darkmantle:
I kinda want to host an all items, full spawn rate, random stage, random char tournament.

I think it would be more fun than the stereotypical "no items final destination" thing most have going on.

TheRunawayGuys over on Youtube hosted a tournament kinda like that among other LP'ers. All items and random stage, only each person had to stick with the same character throughout, no counter-picking. It was pretty epic.

Danzavare:

Kalezian:

TheBobmus:
Wait, what, these are good characters? I've been playing Brawl all wrong, it would seem.

correct.

in order to be any good, you have to play NO ITEMS, STOCK, FOX ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION.

Not to mention out of all the levels available, nine out of ten are banned from tournament play.

most of the reasons? you can fall off the map easily.

Does it really count as 'good' if you have to switch off a lot of the game in order to be good?

I played Brawl on Final Destination without items once. It felt...disturbing.

thats the whole point of tournament play for fighting games, turn off 90% of the game and strain making a smile while saying 'I am having fun.' over and over and over.

Anyone who says playing like that isn't fun are low tier casuals who spam grapple.

Buretsu:

Darkmantle:
I kinda want to host an all items, full spawn rate, random stage, random char tournament.

I think it would be more fun than the stereotypical "no items final destination" thing most have going on.

TheRunawayGuys over on Youtube hosted a tournament kinda like that among other LP'ers. All items and random stage, only each person had to stick with the same character throughout, no counter-picking. It was pretty epic.

Also ProtonJon and a few others had a brawl 'tournament', it was really them just playing around with their favorite characters, making one person hate Sonic, and some of the most bullshit hilarious wins and deaths I have seen.

Meta Knight isn't OP playing all-out brawls because he flies far and lacks real finishing moves, but 1v1 he's equipped to destroy pretty much any enemy strategy.

I love smash and I love playing in every which way with alot of different characters.

I get that it wasn't intended to be balanced, but if you took away smash powers, items, and put things on a normal map.....imagine if it was balanced!

If I was assured most characters were evenly balanced, I'd know I can favor any character I want on preference and have even footing on any opponent. I'd feel pride when I won and understand I lost because my opponent out played me.

Plus it'd stop alot of my friends from complaining when I kick their ass.

I'll just say, cool name for a character. Too bad they can release a patch to rebalance things for online players.

So, roughly 1/3rd of the better competitors use the character, and 2/3rds of the top competitors opted to ban the character? I smell suspicion...

Wii is underbalanced; please patch up its battery life.

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