XCOM Enemy Unknown

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4 man missions???? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

But seriously 4 is a bit low. Sure 26 from an avenger was too much (that 80 item limit....). Four man seems really limiting as a casualty is a 25% manpower reduction (i know dat math yo) and I feel that if death is a real concern then you wouldn't want to break away from keeping the entire 4 man team close and rarely risk splitting off to cover more ground. Gotta play it to tell for sure but im not exactly thrilled by this change. The upgrade to 6 is better but I would rather see it scaled up to a minimum of 6 baseline and 10 max.

I didn't even know what X-Com was until this article. It looks... alright, I guess?

Vault101:
dumb qustion but...

is this thing turn based?

Firaxis's new version of XCOM streamlines a few of the features. Gone are the reserved time units for varying shots. In their place is a two-action per turn policy where soldiers can either move and shoot, move and prepare to fire during the aliens' turn, or simply burn both moves to dash ahead on the battlefield.

In other words, yes, it is.

Vault101:
dumb qustion but...

is this thing turn based?

But of course, it's X-Com. Only with less soldiers.

EDIT:
image
NIIIIIIIIIINJAAAAAAAAAAAS!

octafish:

Vault101:
dumb qustion but...

is this thing turn based?

But of course, it's X-Com. Only with less soldiers.

EDIT:
NIIIIIIIIIINJAAAAAAAAAAAS!

ah, cool

I had never plaed or heard of XCOM before all of this, so yeah

only turnbased thing Ive ever been able to tolerate is pokemon

octafish:

Vault101:
dumb qustion but...

is this thing turn based?

But of course, it's X-Com. Only with less soldiers.

EDIT:
image
NIIIIIIIIIINJAAAAAAAAAAAS!

Vault101:

octafish:

Vault101:
dumb qustion but...

is this thing turn based?

But of course, it's X-Com. Only with less soldiers.

EDIT:
NIIIIIIIIIINJAAAAAAAAAAAS!

ah, cool

I had never plaed or heard of XCOM before all of this, so yeah

only turnbased thing Ive ever been able to tolerate is pokemon

The original is quite the old game. I keep hearing about it, but I've never been able to set the time aside to actually try it out.

According to this summary: http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?117515-X-COM-Information-Summarized

There will be "Tanks" (SHIV)
1 main base and buildable interceptor bases
Upgrades to 6 man squads

===================================================

The thing that worries me is:

"Unit placement procedurally generated."

This strikes me as very arcady and FPS-like. I worry that placement patterns will be obvious and detract from the immersivity and difficulty. The world revolves around your team and situations occur because of where they are.

Battles will thus require less strategy because enemies tend to funnel while flank positions are pre-determined and easily guessed.

Unlike the original X-Com where all enemies are randomly distributed from the start, you need to be extra careful on EVERY corner. Even a hunt with 10 men vs 1 alien will proof incredibly thrilling because you don't know where they are! Gone are the days of pre-emptive smoke screens and throw-lights-and-run-away.

==========================

"Multiple attacks at once, player have to choose."

I don't like being forced to take such options. In previous games you could have multiple bases, Skyrangers and squads to manage simultaneous incidents.

If you missed UFO activity outside of your radar zones because you didn't look at your graphs and sent patrols - then it's your fault.

If you missed a terror mission because you only had 1 Skyranger that's just returning from another mission - then it's bad luck.

If you missed a terror mission because you only had the capability to direct 4 soldiers at once then they've just neutered X-Com.

Tiamat666:

BenEEeee:

Tiamat666:

What do you mean? I can open doors in X-Com without barging into the room. Right-click other side of door while facing door.

That's only possible in "Terror of The Deep" or with an extender mod.

Oh, ok. I only played Terror from the Deep because I got it first and the creepy atmosphere felt superior to the somewhat cheesy, cliché Sci-Fi setting of the original X-Com. Never realized that this open-door ability didn't exist in the original.

Terror of the Deep had so many game breaking bugs I never finished it. I might try it again with modern mods that fix those bugs.

You should try the original UFO-Defence though, I thought it was better than TFTD and I played through it over 8+ times now

BenEEeee:

The thing that worries me is:

"Unit placement procedurally generated."

This strikes me as very arcady and FPS-like. I worry that placement patterns will be obvious and detract from the immersivity and difficulty. The world revolves around your team and situations occur because of where they are.

Battles will thus require less strategy because enemies tend to funnel while flank positions are pre-determined and easily guessed.

Unlike the original X-Com where all enemies are randomly distributed from the start, you need to be extra careful on EVERY corner. Even a hunt with 10 men vs 1 alien will proof incredibly thrilling because you don't know where they are! Gone are the days of pre-emptive smoke screens and throw-lights-and-run-away.

"Procedurally generated" means random. The units are still randomly distributed, and you won't know where they are beforehand.

Rabid Toilet:

"Procedurally generated" means random. The units are still randomly distributed, and you won't know where they are beforehand.

Not if they are generated to within a small section of a level where the variety of which will be small and predictable, vs random distribution of all enemies at the start.

It's a bit like a D&D game where the GM makes up "nice and neat" encounters as travel down a path in comparison to a game where encounters are completely random or enemies have already been placed in specific areas.

X-Com shouldn't be "nice and neat" it should be harsh and unforgiving where shit happens all the time.

"And since you can only take four soldiers with you on any given mission, getting the right mix is imperative."
I am ok with most of changed things, but this...
If we would keep strength ratio original game had, we would need to send 4 soldiers after 1-2 aliens
Because in the beginning of the original game you were seriously outgunned, and only numbers allowed you to succeed on missions- it was nothing unusual to lose half of squad on missions during first few months
Only in the end your soldiers became- no, not stronger- even to aliens, only EVEN
For God's sake aliens should be superior fighting force, and we are sending only one team to secure crashed ships of superior enemy? Not even squad, but a FRICKING FIRETEAM. Who is running this operation? Chimps?

P.S. I'm not asking about small platoon (26) like in original game, but at least squad (8-12) should be available for players (although perfectly would be up to 4 teams- 16 soldiers)

Everyone appears to be freaking out about the small squad size. I'll admit, that I enjoyed having a large team in the original, but I think with the streamlining of mission actions and the unit promotion system, the developers are trying to make it seem like more of an elite unit.

I will reserve judgement until the game comes out but I trust that the developers are doing the right thing, considering that they are all supposed to be fans of the original.

Release date is still a while away, here's hoping that they up the squad numbers!

Oh great butthurt fans afraid of innovation and reducing shitty mechanics.

rolfwesselius:
Oh great butthurt fans afraid of innovation and reducing shitty mechanics.

Yes, obviously, we are all just 'butthurt'. Never mind the fact all of us have said 'we like/don't mind the innovations. Its just the fundamental change in gameplay that is squad reduction that concerns us.' A change strongly impacting game play and atmosphere is just a change to shitty mechanics, so all of us are just whining because, hey, its only a massive change that will effect all aspects of the game contrary to what they have claimed. What do any of us have to be concerned about?

Benni88:
Everyone appears to be freaking out about the small squad size. I'll admit, that I enjoyed having a large team in the original, but I think with the streamlining of mission actions and the unit promotion system, the developers are trying to make it seem like more of an elite unit.

Personally, I would disagree. Part of X-COM was the emergence of your elite few from the chaff of your many recruits. Your troops would become an elite squad... or they would die. This made those who did survive much more important, as they became leaders of the rookies. And when they were all powerful it was still an elite team, you could just do more with it.

With a reduced squad size, all your members will have to be elite from there start, and that means there's less differences between them ,or the enemies are weaker, which also reduces the X-COM get-it-right-or-die atmosphere.

BenEEeee:

Tiamat666:

BenEEeee:

That's only possible in "Terror of The Deep" or with an extender mod.

Oh, ok. I only played Terror from the Deep because I got it first and the creepy atmosphere felt superior to the somewhat cheesy, cliché Sci-Fi setting of the original X-Com. Never realized that this open-door ability didn't exist in the original.

Terror of the Deep had so many game breaking bugs I never finished it. I might try it again with modern mods that fix those bugs.

You should try the original UFO-Defence though, I thought it was better than TFTD and I played through it over 8+ times now

TftD had many game breaking bugs? I probably played it 8+ times over (mostly) without problems. There was one really annoying bug though that tended to occur on 2-stage missions during AI phase. Sometimes the game would simply freeze right after an alien took a shot. The only solution to this was saving often, restarting the game, and hoping that the AI would not take the shot this time.

I seriously tried playing the standard X-Com a few times, but the cartoonish graphical style and the aforementioned clichéd aliens always made me switch back to Terror. I still think that Terror has the superior atmosphere overall. I love the Cthulhu'esque setting and there is something inherently creepy about the deep, vast sea.

By the way, it's called "Terror FROM the Deep". You keep calling it "Terror OF the Deep" ;)

I never had a chance to play the original X-Com back in the day so don't have anything prior to compare it to, but I've always hated the long standing trend of downsizing your party size. From tactical shooters like the Rainbow Six series, JRPG's like the Final Fantasy series, or CRPG's like Bioware's AD&D titles, over time developers seem to just love cutting down your team size. It's always pissed me off.

the four to six man limit sounds a bit weird along with the talent tree.Maybe this would work better in a GOOD JA3 or JA2 remake.

GiglameshSoulEater:

Steve Butts:
Squad of four

That is... one hell of a downgrade, actually. Part of the fun of xcom was your expendable hordes of recruits and their stupendous death rate. With four team members, that's gone. Straight off, gone.

That is kind of disappointing. The rest of the changes are fine. I just really don't agree with that. Either the enemies are less dangerous to compensate or less numerous, so either way things are on a smaller scale.

Less logical as well. A squad of 26 is slightly better than a squad of four in investigating a crashed UFO or whatever.

Four is a bit small, I agree, but I rarely ever needed more than eight red shirts elite assault troops to get the job done in the original XCOM (although I always was too scared to ramp up the difficulty). After watching the two "deep dive" videos I must admit that I'm (very very) cautiously optimistic. I did wince a little when they talked of "simplifying" time units, but it looks like they've added some neat new features. I've heard a rumour circulating that alien assaults on XCOM bases will not be in the game, which I'm a little sad about. Hopefully you'll still be able to assault alien bases.

Tiamat666:

BenEEeee:

Tiamat666:

Oh, ok. I only played Terror from the Deep because I got it first and the creepy atmosphere felt superior to the somewhat cheesy, cliché Sci-Fi setting of the original X-Com. Never realized that this open-door ability didn't exist in the original.

Terror of the Deep had so many game breaking bugs I never finished it. I might try it again with modern mods that fix those bugs.

You should try the original UFO-Defence though, I thought it was better than TFTD and I played through it over 8+ times now

TftD had many game breaking bugs? I probably played it 8+ times over (mostly) without problems. There was one really annoying bug though that tended to occur on 2-stage missions during AI phase. Sometimes the game would simply freeze right after an alien took a shot. The only solution to this was saving often, restarting the game, and hoping that the AI would not take the shot this time.

I seriously tried playing the standard X-Com a few times, but the cartoonish graphical style and the aforementioned clichéd aliens always made me switch back to Terror. I still think that Terror has the superior atmosphere overall. I love the Cthulhu'esque setting and there is something inherently creepy about the deep, vast sea.

By the way, it's called "Terror FROM the Deep". You keep calling it "Terror OF the Deep" ;)

Aha, old habits I guess - I've been calling it "Terror of the Deep" since I first played it when I was 9. I think the recent releases have had the bugs fixed - when I was way younger I remembered a lot of problems with the game.

Tiamat666:

TftD had many game breaking bugs? I probably played it 8+ times over (mostly) without problems. There was one really annoying bug though that tended to occur on 2-stage missions during AI phase. Sometimes the game would simply freeze right after an alien took a shot. The only solution to this was saving often, restarting the game, and hoping that the AI would not take the shot this time.

I seriously tried playing the standard X-Com a few times, but the cartoonish graphical style and the aforementioned clichéd aliens always made me switch back to Terror. I still think that Terror has the superior atmosphere overall. I love the Cthulhu'esque setting and there is something inherently creepy about the deep, vast sea.

By the way, it's called "Terror FROM the Deep". You keep calling it "Terror OF the Deep" ;)

Hell yeah TFTD had game-breaking bugs, and the bugs were different depending on which version of the game you had. If you didn't research certain items in the correct order, the game would become unwinnable because key parts of the tech tree would simply refuse to unlock. To confuse matters further, the two versions of TFTD had different tech trees (both of which were buggy in slightly different ways). While I did enjoy the increased difficulty of TFTD, there were other parts which I did not enjoy.

GiglameshSoulEater:

Steve Butts:
Squad of four

That is... one hell of a downgrade, actually. Part of the fun of xcom was your expendable hordes of recruits and their stupendous death rate. With four team members, that's gone. Straight off, gone.

That is kind of disappointing. The rest of the changes are fine. I just really don't agree with that. Either the enemies are less dangerous to compensate or less numerous, so either way things are on a smaller scale.

Less logical as well. A squad of 26 is slightly better than a squad of four in investigating a crashed UFO or whatever.

Took the words right out of my mouth. I have nothing more to add.

Urh:

Tiamat666:

TftD had many game breaking bugs? I probably played it 8+ times over (mostly) without problems. There was one really annoying bug though that tended to occur on 2-stage missions during AI phase. Sometimes the game would simply freeze right after an alien took a shot. The only solution to this was saving often, restarting the game, and hoping that the AI would not take the shot this time.

I seriously tried playing the standard X-Com a few times, but the cartoonish graphical style and the aforementioned clichéd aliens always made me switch back to Terror. I still think that Terror has the superior atmosphere overall. I love the Cthulhu'esque setting and there is something inherently creepy about the deep, vast sea.

By the way, it's called "Terror FROM the Deep". You keep calling it "Terror OF the Deep" ;)

Hell yeah TFTD had game-breaking bugs, and the bugs were different depending on which version of the game you had. If you didn't research certain items in the correct order, the game would become unwinnable because key parts of the tech tree would simply refuse to unlock. To confuse matters further, the two versions of TFTD had different tech trees (both of which were buggy in slightly different ways). While I did enjoy the increased difficulty of TFTD, there were other parts which I did not enjoy.

Actually, now that you mention it, I remember a couple of games in which I could not research the advanced ships. I would capture aliens like crazy, dead or alive, and the research still wouldn't show up, so I had to make due with Barracudas and Tritons all the way up to the endgame.

Yes, it is actually possible to take out the biggest alien ships with 3 Barracudas, attacking all at the same time with D.U.P. Head Torpedoes. Takes a bit of luck though.

Never knew this was actually a bug. Me <= clueless. :D

Edit: The video you posted is funny, but exaggerated. Once you have Sonic weapons, Lobster Men are not much harder to kill than any other alien.

Wait, wait, wait. Additional bases are now for interception only? So I guess aliens assaulting your bases has also been "streamlined" out of the game then? Ugh, one step forward two steps back.

BenEEeee:

Rabid Toilet:

"Procedurally generated" means random. The units are still randomly distributed, and you won't know where they are beforehand.

Not if they are generated to within a small section of a level where the variety of which will be small and predictable, vs random distribution of all enemies at the start.

It's a bit like a D&D game where the GM makes up "nice and neat" encounters as travel down a path in comparison to a game where encounters are completely random or enemies have already been placed in specific areas.

X-Com shouldn't be "nice and neat" it should be harsh and unforgiving where shit happens all the time.

'Nice and neat encounters' is the opposite of procedurally generated. In games it simply means that it isn't determined at design time. A procedurally generated map will be different every time, unlike a designed map that will be the same each playthrough.
In practice procedurally generated is what most people call random. There are many different ways to do it in practice, and exactly how random it will feel is impossible to determine based on this description. It can be predictable, but it doesn't have to be. That depends on the ruleset they choose use.

So, here's my take: I really tried to like XCOM but it wore out its welcome before I was able to capture a live commander to unlock the final missions, and the fun started to wear out well before that. The streamlining of the battles alone makes me super interested in this new version. One problem I had with the original is that battles took a LONG time - you had to be careful if you didn't want your party wiped out. Which was fine, it's supposed to be a challenge. But then you have to fight SO MANY battles, and eventually I just got tired of the micromanagement needed both in and out of battles that's necessary to get through the game.

I'll also say that yeah, maybe the purists have a right to be aggrieved by some of this. But Firaxis isn't making the game for purists, they're making it for gamers, so they need it to be fun for a wider audience. Watching my squad get murdered by aliens and failing miserably isn't fun, and if that's what I can look forward to in a game then I'm more likely to spend my scarce gaming time and money elsewhere.

Tiamat666:

Edit: The video you posted is funny, but exaggerated. Once you have Sonic weapons, Lobster Men are not much harder to kill than any other alien.

The difficulty is not the point of the video. There is also a link in the description of the video which leads to "The Improper method of dealing with Cruise Ship Terror Missions" on viddler... which is 96 minutes long. Lobster Man Cruise Ship Terror Missions tend to be a bit longish and can at the end degrade to a bughunt where you basically start searching every container, every corner for that last alien... Definitely not fun.

The reduction to 4 seems ill-conceived. It means you no longer have a true multi-squad force, so you aren't engaging the battlefield with the same approach of sending out multiple squads to work as a team.

But my bigger complaint is that it is coming out NOW, when I no longer have enough free time to play an XCOM title!!!

Benni88:
Everyone appears to be freaking out about the small squad size. I'll admit, that I enjoyed having a large team in the original, but I think with the streamlining of mission actions and the unit promotion system, the developers are trying to make it seem like more of an elite unit.

I will reserve judgement until the game comes out but I trust that the developers are doing the right thing, considering that they are all supposed to be fans of the original.

Exactly!!! so stop complaining bitches, you are going to buy and enjoy it anyway :)

Cenega's homages had something like 5-6 troops, with battles ranging from 3-4 mobs at first up to dozens by endgame, Aftershock and Afterlight only had to one base too.

They worked well, so I keep an eye on this, especially with Firaxis at the helm.

FOUR soldiers?! What the fuck!! FOUR?! With the squad size upgradable to SIX?! What is this shit?!!?!

I have never been infuriated over a franchise taking a turn I didn't like and I never understood people who got angry over these kind of things, but NOW... Now I understand.

One of the funnest parts for me in the original game was having incredible tactical flexibility. When I didn't know where the aliens were or they were spread on more fronts, I would break my 12-man unit into 3 squads and engage them on all fronts, providing one squad for flanking. Why? And, at least, why not 8? Is it because the game is too easy with a larger squad? Well then, crank up the fucking difficulty!

And don't get me wrong, I like what I've seen about this game so far. I like the cover system or the zoom-in to third person when you're firing. It gives the series a fresh gameplay mechanic... But a max 6-man unit? That's... just wrong.

4-6 Units would is good enough for me if it were a limit per team (for multiple teams).
I used fire teams of 3-4 units in X-COM Apocalypse, which worked out a bit better than the usual meatgrinder that was X-COM 1 and 2 (well, luck with Brainsuckers pending).

Of course, this is just ONE team of 4-6 agents.

BenEEeee:

Rabid Toilet:

"Procedurally generated" means random. The units are still randomly distributed, and you won't know where they are beforehand.

Not if they are generated to within a small section of a level where the variety of which will be small and predictable, vs random distribution of all enemies at the start.

It's a bit like a D&D game where the GM makes up "nice and neat" encounters as travel down a path in comparison to a game where encounters are completely random or enemies have already been placed in specific areas.

X-Com shouldn't be "nice and neat" it should be harsh and unforgiving where shit happens all the time.

Most "procedurally generated" games I've played (a lot of roguelikes) has been exactly as you desire. Everything from Nethack, to Diablo 2 to A Valley Without Wind. The full encounter zone (enemies and their positions included) is generated when you load the area.

The only major exception, ironically, is Left4Dead. But that's because that game takes the player's status into account for when it generates items, mobs, and special infected.

I see your concern though. It'd suck if it everything were tailored to your situation, rather than punishing you properly for fucking up. This is war, after all.

I took a double take when I saw X-COM. It's a game that always deserves honorable mention when taking a trip down memory lane. I knew there were some independent projects people were working on a redux in their spare time, but I had no idea that it was actually reaching fruition. I'll agree with the others that you need some more room for redshirts, but I was one of those people who would save VERY often during combat, and come out with few losses, if any.*

I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this one.

*If you like playing realistic and taking the nasty losses, that's fine, in fact, you've got my admiration, but I hate casualties and it's just a game. An awesome game.

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