Earth's Whitey-est Heroes

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Isn't the failing of the majority of superhero movies the "let's add more characters!" mentality? And we're having an article discussing how we should add a bunch of characters. Good idea.

Calbeck:

Given that we're talking about Bob's problem with the "whiteness" of the cast in THIS movie, talking about casting the next one is a bit disingenuous. Either there's a race problem with the existing movie, or there isn't.

There isn't a problem with the cast of this movie, but he was just mentioning ways they could branch out a bit for the sequel.

For God's sake, WHERE?! There's noplace you could cram them into the film that wouldn't be a mere cameo or swapping out a supporting cast member (and I'm sure no one wants to see Luke Cage be the supporting cast member Loki offs).

It actually wouldn't be that hard to accomplish, the movie isn't really focused on character development so much as interaction. Keep in mind that we can have other heroes leave for a time then come back in other films. Say in Thor 2, have Thor at the end of the movie head back to Asgard for a short time. Then come back at the end of the Avengers 2. It's not impossible to incorporate fan favorite heroes into the movie-verse.

snip about a shitty fucking movie

I don't really care about Red Tails, I didn't see and I didn't want to see it. You brought it up.

But let's get back to the meat of the matter: YOUR argument is that a film about a superteam, which itself is the culmination of about a half-dozen other films establishing the origins of the members OF that superteam, is lacking because all of the members picked for movie treatment came from the Avengers A-list --- and none of them happened to be something other than Caucasian.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth and Bob's. I love words in my mouth.

I never said that there's anything wrong with an all white cast. I never said there was anything wrong with the Avengers lineup. Bob ( and to some extend myself), was just saying that he wouldn't mind if, in future films they devirsified the cast a bit to include more minority superheroes. He then went on to list MINORITY SUPERHEROES WHO ARE ALSO AVENGERS. No one is talking about replacing Captain America with a black guy. No one is talking about making Tony Stark Asian, or Hawkeye a woman.

It is EXACTLY the same as griping about "Red Tails" having nothing but black pilots in it. You are demanding B-listers replace A-listers as major (not supporting, not cameo) figures, without any idea of how they would actually have been worked in, for no better reason than being offended by a fictional character's skin color.

No it isn't. Were not talking about making previously white characters black, were talking about including black heroes who would be awesome. Honestly, if you can't see how awesome it would be to see Luke Cage or Black Panther on the big screen, I really doubt you are a fan of the original comics to begin with.

Actually, the whole point made in the movie "Thor" was that Norse mythology was based ON the Asgardians coming to Earth in the first place.

The movie is it's own universe, with it's own interpretation of what Norse mythology actually is. None of the mythological characters in Thor are that alike to their actual Norse counterparts.

The movie, "Avengers", also worked very well. It was not made worse by the lack of Luke Cage, Black Panther, or Spider-Woman.

I didn't say it was worse without them, I'm saying it could be made better WITH them. One does NOT mean the other.

And I wouldn't cast a comic-book character who's a white man as a black man, OR vice versa. It doesn't become any less racist or offensive when the objective is the same damned thing.

I wouldn't do it for a titular character(or one as beloved as Thor), but I see no reason why ancillary characters like Heimdall can't be black. I mean there was already an Asian guy in Thor, why is it such a big deal to have a black guy? Why not just cast whoever is best for the role regardless of skin color?

The Bandit:
Isn't the failing of the majority of superhero movies the "let's add more characters!" mentality? And we're having an article discussing how we should add a bunch of characters. Good idea.

The problem with most superhero films isn't too many characters so much as too many villains. Having a focused villain helps move the plot better. Having multiple heroes doesn't really hurt the plot that much.

All I ask is there be a Luke Cage film one day please. Thank you.

For the love of god, don't bring in Spider-woman. Please please please. She is so terrible in every way and has always been terrible. Stop bringing her up, the only reason she was an avenger was because Bendis has a bizarre love for terrible characters.

Luke Cage and Iron Fist in a Heroes for Hire movie? Hells yes.
Black Panther movie? Hell to the fuck yes.

You want a good female hero introduced? She-Hulk, Jennifer Walters. We know Ruffalo is getting a solo hulk movie, gimme some of that She-hulk action. Misty Knight isn't really Avengers tier, but Ms. Marvel is begging to be brought in, or Photon.

rayen020:
i know you did a big picture on her but are we not going to mention Mrs. Marvel at all?

This article is about minorities. Ms. Marvel is blond hair and I think blue eyed. Soooo....

While I would like for there to be more minority representation in movies, a COMIC BOOK movie isn't exactly the best source, since all of the best comic books were made back in the times where whitey people were the only people expected to be heroes in the first place.

If we wanted to add diversity, then I think the best choices would be the two characters that people keep bringing up in this topic, those being Ms. Marvel and the Wasp (and seriously, just put the Wasp in. Isn't she a founding member?).

As for the ones mentioned... I think the only members we'd ever see in a sequel to the Avengers are Luke Cage and the Black Panther, due to their popularity. What do I mean? I'm not a comic book fan, and the only ones I recognized out of those people there were the ones I mentioned. Sure, a good portion of the Avengers's audience are diehard Marvel and comic book fans, but a good portion are also normal people, Bob, people that don't care for comics.

Like... uh... most people I know that saw the Avengers.

Thomas Guy:

rayen020:
i know you did a big picture on her but are we not going to mention Mrs. Marvel at all?

This article is about minorities. Ms. Marvel is blond hair and I think blue eyed. Soooo....

It has nothing to do with her being blond-haired and blue-eyed and so verboten (and and women=minority, which is why the biggest beneficiaries of Affirmative Action are actually white women. So.) and everything to do with the fact they don't have the movie rights to any character tied to X-Men. Which Ms. Marvel is, thanks to Rogue.

It's not 'FORCING' diversity. The heroes he mentioned are all canonically their respective races. Honestly I was a little surprised they didn't make Hawkeye a different race. Either way I think Power Man and Iron Fist should get a Heroes for Hire movie. They should make Iron Fist completely Asian for this as opposed to half or not at all. Though it might be boring to have two more 'we can punch stuff really hard' guys join the team.

I thought it was awesome they have Black Widow. Little kids identify with people 'like them' weather you try to train them or not. My foster daughter wants to be Black Widow for halloween now. She's a superhero for little girls. Nothing wrong with it.
Would it kill us to let one of the existing minority characters join up? Like it or not kids watch superhero movies. I mean Black Panther has been in the avengers FOREVER. What about Falcon?

Also, when is Doctor Strange getting a movie? IT WOULD BE FUCKING AWESOME.

The Wiki there's been like 100 avengers. I think we can find some minorities with cool powers without 'shoehorning' anything.

Yea lets add characters based on their race to not be racist!

Ummm.. wait a minute!

So why should Marvel make a token black guy super hero just to make you feel good? Let the Best Actor or Actress get the part for any future characters... Why should anyone care what color a super hero is? Last time I checked we should be judging people purely off of the content of their Character. The fact that you need diversity for diversity is spitting in the face of the equality that one of the greatest leaders in this world demanded out of all of us, no matter the race.

The argument is insulting...

Valkyrie1981:
So why should Marvel make a token black guy super hero just to make you feel good? Let the Best Actor or Actress get the part for any future characters... Why should anyone care what color a super hero is? Last time I checked we should be judging people purely off of the content of their Character. The fact that you need diversity for diversity is spitting in the face of the equality that one of the greatest leaders in this world demanded out of all of us, no matter the race.

The argument is insulting...

.

Thank you.

It's only guilt complexed white people who think this shit is necessary. Know what black people have to say about it? That it was a great movie. The only blacks I know of who would complain have victim complexes. The ones who go through there day not thinking about this kind of veal are livingembodiments of blacks who are intelligent and can do for themselves.they loved it!

I apologize while I stand by my point that was a rude way to say it. I've a feminist friend who likes to shove political correctness down my throat an it gets old bein told that because your white an male you don't know what hardship or discrimination is.

ace_of_something:
It's not 'FORCING' diversity. The heroes he mentioned are all canonically their respective races. Honestly I was a little surprised they didn't make Hawkeye a different race. Either way I think Power Man and Iron Fist should get a Heroes for Hire movie. They should make Iron Fist completely Asian for this as opposed to half or not at all. Though it might be boring to have two more 'we can punch stuff really hard' guys join the team.

I thought it was awesome they have Black Widow. Little kids identify with people 'like them' weather you try to train them or not. My foster daughter wants to be Black Widow for halloween now. She's a superhero for little girls. Nothing wrong with it.
Would it kill us to let one of the existing minority characters join up? Like it or not kids watch superhero movies. I mean Black Panther has been in the avengers FOREVER. What about Falcon?

Also, when is Doctor Strange getting a movie? IT WOULD BE FUCKING AWESOME.

The Wiki there's been like 100 avengers. I think we can find some minorities with cool powers without 'shoehorning' anything.

Understand that The Avengers is Marvel's big dumping ground for characters. It's not the kind of flagship title the JLA is where you routinely have all the big names together, even if the two are compared (and both are successful in their own right). In general there is one major character in The Avengers to act as an anchor (which rotates), and generate base appeal. Then the rest of The Avengers is made up of second string characters, those who are popular, but not popular enough to hold their own book at that time, or characters with a waning fan base, or experimental works that Marvel is unsure about. The idea is basically to sell a title by having all these second stringers together, where few people would buy a title just about that character. Sometimes Avengers characters go on to their own titles (or recovery back to them), or disappear to occasional cameo appearances or disappear entirely. The cases where you actually see "The Avengers" concept in action, with all the Marvel big wigs (Thor, Iron Man, etc..) together happen, but are comparitively rare because those characters can hold their own title. From a publishing perspective they all take turns being the anchor character (or maybe two of them) but that is never anything like a permanant position. On a few occasions there have been Avengers teams with absolutly no "A list" marvel characters at all, or where with all the regular Avenger anchors being busy within the continuity another big character had to be written in when the title started to flag a bit. As a result we've had cases where characters not normally associated with The Avengers have been with them for a brief period of time, and might even occasionally be brought up as Avengers reserve members as a technicality. Spider Man for example is an Avengers reservist, but he's usually holding down his own comics, and even balancing multiple titles specifically based on or around him at one time.

The point of this explanation is that the majority of those characters are Avengers because they suck and failed (sorry to say it). They are characters that do not have any substantial fan base. In some cases it's even a matter of the character being a result of Affirmitive action where they wanted a black character just to have one, and by setting out to do it caused the character to suck, and it never went beyond third string status. Going through the Avengers list of minority characters would probably be almost like a like a gallery of fail and examples of exactly how you don't do this, as proven by that character and it's performance.

My basic attitude is that we'll see good minority super heroes, but they can't be created because someone sets out to create them for the sake of balance, it has to happen on it's own, as a result of someone creating a decent character on their own, without prompting, that happens to be black. As soon as race, sexual orientation, etc... gets mentioned at the forefront it's a recipe for fail. The minority characters that succeeded to an extent like say Apollo & Midnighter (gay), or Spawn (black), did it in part because nobody was screaming "we are going to have these gay super heroes", it just sort of happened. Likewise Spawn was never promoted as being some big minority thing as far as I ever saw, he was just Spawn, and Spawn happened to be black... and incidently it pretty much made Todd Mcfarlane's career.

Political correctness and affirmitive action are never good things, and destroy everything they touch. Indeed the more you act on those principles the less the chances are that you'll ever see genuine change in any signifigant way. Pushing for things, right this minute, especilally if based on principles like guilt, and perceived injustices that don't really exist in any current context, does not end well.

Incidently if your ever really interested look up some of the black and minority characters Marvel and DC has run over the years. There are shocking numbers of them, if you really read up on them, you'll notice that pretty much all of them were created for the purpose of diversity, and all of them were both forced and kind of sucked. The handfull of characters we have that are minorities in comics are usually ones that came about with other intent, or happened to be good. Storm, Black Panther, etc... they have been in publication for decades compared to some characters like oh say Rocket Racer (anti-hero, started as a spider man villain if I remember), Battlestar, or Triathlon who at best seem to get occasional appearances or mention nowadays (and only pretty serious comic nerds know who they are). They have been used in teams (and Triathlon was even the crux of an entire Avengers story arc) and given plenty of chances... but well, crap characters tend to all wind up in the same place, and really comics is pretty cutthroat.

Of course some of those characters are probably the very favoritist of someone out there despite their performance. I myself really liked a few (now obscure) characters that never went anywhere, but sadly it's just the way it goes.

If they are going to put a minority into The Avengers, not that it would be a good idea, the movie continuity would require a major character of which there are only a couple that come close, as the movie-verse is fueled differant, and involves The Avengers as the major characters all the time as opposed to being a dumping ground (ie people right now would not go to see a movie based around your typical Avengers roster, they want characters they know, the gimmick that created The Avengers, not what the title turned into and was used as).

I would find it absolutly hilarious if someone who had no clue about comics greenlit an FX-fueled "Avatar-Like" extravaganza featuring an intentionally diverse cast of characters he hand picked from Marvel's roster based on apperance, and inadvertantly created a huge gallery of big budget fail, as some of the stupidist characters in comics all showed up in the same movie together. amd demonstrated in detail why they did not work to begin with. "Oh hey, here is a super hero that is basically a homeless guy, who looks like one! We'll put him in for the sake of diversity!, A hopeless nerd with Cybernetic Lobsters, that's gold!". It would be awesome to see 800 million dollars spent so we could see Cybernetic Lobsters used to fight crime (and these are normal sized lobsters... and no I'm not making that up, his name was Gomi I believe,it's been a while but I think he ran with The New Mutants). :)

I did read the whole article...

But not only is Nick Fury part of the avengers, he is the BOSS of the avengers, therefore any hiring policy is his fault, and he can't possibly be racist.

Now, why didn't he hire Rhodie? I have a simple explanation, he hates him...
On day one of basic training, a young Rhodie accidentally discharged his weapon and took out his drill sergeant's eye, since then Rhodie has been a model soldier, but Fury has never forgiven him.

Also, Isaiah Mustafa, aka The Man Your Man Could Smell Like, wants to play Luke Cage. Does anyone have any idea how epic that would be?

Please comic book creators, no more 'blackfacing' existing characters. The comic world needs more actual diversity, interesting new characters, and more diverse creative talent. Taking a character and simply adding a splash of paint is lazy, and only really works with second tier characters like nick fury (I actually prefer the black nick fury)

So I'm all for luke cage in the next avengers!

Calbeck:

animehermit:

[quote]Third, the actor who played Heimdall was cast, not because he's black, but because he is a fantastic actor

So, clearly, you'd have had no issue with a fantastic Asian or Hispanic actor playing the part of Joe "Lightning" Little in "Red Tails", a movie about the Tuskeegee Airmen.

It is different, the events in the Tuskegee Airmen films ( be it Redtails or the 1995 film) are based on actual events, and are a part of WWII history. Whereas Thor Oden Heimdall and the rest of the Asgardians are a part of legend, which implies fiction.

When you think about it, given the recurring story point that S.H.I.E.L.D.'s problem with Iron Man is strictly Tony Stark's bad attitude, the idea that they didn't recruit the guy who has all of Iron Man's powers, more onboard weapons and is already an enlisted military professional is something of a plot hole.

I thought they made it pretty clear in the movie that S.H.I.E.L.D. wanted Tony Stark for his intellect, not just for the Iron Man suit. It's certainly a bonus, and I have a feeling Nick Fury intended him to become part of the Avengers, but it's understandable why they chose him and not Rhodey. Plus he could have been off doing some other work for them when the shit hit the fan.

Well, not every superhero movie needs to tie into The Avengers. Otherwise, it would just end up being a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

More on topic, I'd like to see a Black Panther movie. Perhaps Michael Jai White in the title role? I'd pay good money to see that.

I know diversity is a big thing and all, but for me, the only three guys that should be there and aren't for some stupid reason is Ant-Man, Wasp and Spiderwoman. The two previous because, for fuck's sake, it's a man that can change to the size of a fucking giant and a woman that can become so small she can enter the enemies' heads. She also fires plasma beams from her hands, goddammit. Also, Spiderwoman for the reasons Bob mentioned.

These are some terrible suggestions indeed.

Just a continuation of the trend that since black people make out like 10% of the population in America, they should make out roughly 40-50% of the cast in any big picture.

rbstewart7263:
It's only guilt complexed white people who think this shit is necessary. Know what black people have to say about it? That it was a great movie. The only blacks I know of who would complain have victim complexes. The ones who go through there day not thinking about this kind of veal are livingembodiments of blacks who are intelligent and can do for themselves.they loved it!

I'm sorry, but I can't take any opinions on the subject of race seriously when the person calls groups of people things like "blacks". We're not in apartheid-era South Africa for fuck's sake!

I live in ms we don't dole out in things like caucasian or African-American here its a waste of time. We whether black or white would rather say something as plainly an honestly as we can.my friends refer themselves as black one of em is a robotics engineer if that's what's needed so that he not be called ignorant(we also pop off racist jokes at each other which I feel is a more fun way to put the past behind us an be friends. )

I for one am against adding characters to the film, just for the sake of diversifying it.
I mean, that's just like pulling an producer mandate on a otherwise normal story.
So if there is a story-based need for any of those characters, then sure, let's write them in, but otherwise, when someone says "whitewash", let's just point them to Nick L. Fury and nod.

MB, you're picking at issues that don't exist. Aside from the cynics who can never enjoy anything, fans are pretty united in their enjoyment of the film. How about you stop jumping in-between fans and telling them "that's hor-fence-ive" and enjoy one of these rare moments when the internet isn't burning down around us with fanboy rage?

Marvel got things started with the Avengers. Now we can take things forward. I'd watch a Black Panther movie. Dude kicks ass. Hell, I'd watch Luke Cage even though I've never read much about him. I'd start drooling if I saw Storm in her mowhawk and punk rocker gear.

Let it go, man.

In case no one's mentioned: Luke Cage is in development for Columbia Pictures. So, unless I'm mistaken, he's not likely going to show up in The Avengers anytime soon.

That being said, I'm one of the few people left in the world who honestly doesn't care less about diversity in movies. This article seems to be a case of "I'm not complaining, but let's make an issue out of it anyway."

Let the wise one himself explain it to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Freeman#Comments_on_race

Caffeine_Bombed:
In case no one's mentioned: Luke Cage is in development for Columbia Pictures. So, unless I'm mistaken, he's not likely going to show up in The Avengers anytime soon.

That being said, I'm one of the few people left in the world who honestly doesn't care less about diversity in movies. This article seems to be a case of "I'm not complaining, but let's make an issue out of it anyway."

Let the wise one himself explain it to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Freeman#Comments_on_race

I dunno. The US has a pretty particular problem. I've haven't seen any other developed country where there is so little diversity in films. Somewhere in the process of creating a film somebody is putting the boot down and saying "I'm not having any black people in this film, thank you very much." There's one thing that keeps coming up and it's the fact that supposedly filmmakers don't allow diversity in films because the audience doesn't want diversity in films i.e. "it's not our fault the audience is racist" which I think is a monstruous problem just by this statement even existing. I think diversity should be pushed and if when the films come out, they aren't huge bombs then congratulations, you've solved racism in Hollywood, if they do, then I think that leads to a sobering realization of just how bad the racism problem is in the US.

Urameshi13:
I have been thinking that when DC finally gets their act together, the GL for the Justice League movie should be John Stewart. Especially if Marvel can successfully pull off a solo Black Panther movie, then I think a movie about a former US Marine gaining the power of the Green Lantern should be an easy sell.

Or maybe just get a good GL movie and have one for each of the Earths GLs and have them team up for a giant fight against say the RLs

I'm all for equality, both in sexes and races, but calling for token minorities is just a bad idea.
Most of the cast being white isn't racist.
Making an issue out of it is, however.

Luke Cage over captain America
Misty Night over black widow or whatever

If only because they pack superhuman firepower, and whilst it's true Captain America has some it pales in comparison to thor. Might get rid of the whole Captain America why don't you demonstrate your role in the team by pulling that lever when I tell you too and shoot a gun like any other sod.

In any case the movie was pretty great as is but whilst the avengers should be a symbol of unity through diversity and whatever else, it would be sad to be seen as racist just because they didn't think into including more colorful heroes.

On another note I would have liked to have seen Captain America getting confused by microwaves, throw in some blast from the past references.

Jesus christ people, he never said it needed a more diverse cast or was offensive, he's just pointing out that it's odd that there wasn't more diversity and then listed some popular ethnic characters. And anyone who's talking about shoehorning in b-listers just shut up. How well known was Hawkeye or Black Widow before this movie? Honestly if you're first thought when someone suggests including well liked minority characters, not shoe horning them in or replacing or changing existing characters, just including some good characters that would help broaden the franchise's appeal, is to freak out, then yeah you're probably a racist.

I don't even usually get caught up in these things, I barely notice them. For instance I didn't even realise New 52 could be offensive. But, even I cameout of Avengers thinking "So we got a team of two Arian posterboys, one of the 1% and a Russian who speaks in an American accent. The closest thing to cultural diversity is a green guy. Why didn't they call up the black hero who has parts in more movies than most of the other characters?"

Wow, I read nothing but the title and I already knew I was in for another facepalm-fest. This is the kind of PC crap that ruins most media. "OMG THERE ARE NO BLACK/ASIAN/INUIT/NATIVE AMERICAN/CRIPPLED/HANDICAPPED SUPERHEROES IN THIS MOVIE - WE MUST ADD ONE IN JUST BECAUSE HERP!"

It's the dumbest reasoning ever, and it in fact perpetuates the very "racism" it's supposed to (by some random logic) work against. Special treatment because of ethnic origins; it works both ways - better or worse treatment based on racial background.

I agree they could've and in fact should've added War Machine into the movie, but because he's a very central character to Iron Man - not because he happens to be a black guy.

MorganL4:

It is different, the events in the Tuskegee Airmen films ( be it Redtails or the 1995 film) are based on actual events, and are a part of WWII history. Whereas Thor Oden Heimdall and the rest of the Asgardians are a part of legend, which implies fiction.

Doesn't matter a bit. The objective stated was diversity for its own sake. Not to add to the film, not to improve anything, and in fact even if it might DETRACT from the movie. That's precisely what would happen in both cases.

But Bob only complains about "The Avengers" being less ethnically-diverse than he would like, his proposed solution being that characters with arguably far less power to attract audiences (Luke Cage et al) should have been used instead.

Solely because of their skin color.

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