Hitman: Plan B

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You know, it's trailers like this make me want to go to every game development studio on the planet and make all the men there spend a few days tip toeing around in stilettos. They can run, jump, and attempt to play sports in them too! Maybe after a few twisted/broken ankles they'd finally get the hint that as nice as they make a girl's rump look, it's not suitable combat footwear. Actually, let's include comic book companies, TV and movie studios in that equation too. It's one of the many reasons why I won't be seeing Catwoman in the new Batman movie.

Honestly, I'd kill for more games to show women dressing practically for the situations they're approaching and not dressing them for titillation. As many people have said: that's what makes this sexist. Honestly, that's the part about sexualization of violence/majority of action girls that really bugs me. It always assumes that the woman in question will A) use her looks to succeed and B) will dress for eye candy. It handicaps the characters themselves and the viewer will automatically assume that they are bad at or less capable than the men surrounding them because of the way they are dressed. Super skin tight clothing usually means one is less capable of fluid movement, especially when they're teetering around on tiny spikes with the balls of their feet arched way up.

All that said, good comic! :D

Captcha: Age before beauty... Applicable?

Fuck, can't watch the trailer on here. I forgot to change the year in the birthday settings. What less than a year old would even watch that on here anyway escapist?

At first i thought this was a comment on the state of videogames today but then i saw the trailer...


now this makes more or less sense...

also the guy in the chair reminds me of L

nightwolf667:
You know, it's trailers like this make me want to go to every game development studio on the planet and make all the men there spend a few days tip toeing around in stilettos. They can run, jump, and attempt to play sports in them too! Maybe after a few twisted/broken ankles they'd finally get the hint that as nice as they make a girl's rump look, it's not suitable combat footwear. Actually, let's include comic book companies, TV and movie studios in that equation too. It's one of the many reasons why I won't be seeing Catwoman in the new Batman movie.

Honestly, I'd kill for more games to show women dressing practically for the situations they're approaching and not dressing them for titillation. As many people have said: that's what makes this sexist. Honestly, that's the part about sexualization of violence/majority of action girls that really bugs me. It always assumes that the woman in question will A) use her looks to succeed and B) will dress for eye candy. It handicaps the characters themselves and the viewer will automatically assume that they are bad at or less capable than the men surrounding them because of the way they are dressed. Super skin tight clothing usually means one is less capable of fluid movement, especially when they're teetering around on tiny spikes with the balls of their feet arched way up.

All that said, good comic! :D

Captcha: Age before beauty... Applicable?

Not all media is meant to evoke hyper realism alot of games end up appearing bland and boring because of this. The battle nuns(lmao god that word) evoke a very kill billesqueness to me. And dont tell me that style has not been apart of the hitman series I dont see the hitman wearing a guilly suit when hes in the jungle i see him in a badass tux cause its a videogame not a navy seals documentary.

Also of note assassins tend to be very egocentric and will escue body armor and cover for a very stylized vision of self. In a croud you might assume the one with the baggy clothes with all the body armor underneath is there to kill you long before you might expect the leather outfitted one.(albeight minus the rather obvious rockets and stuff but I repeat the trailer is meant to make you want to look into the game more and possibly buy it not be a one to one representation its hard to fit that into a 2:36 min trailer and keep things interesting.)

Vrex360:
Huh, evidently the message needs to be more overt.

IT IS NOT THAT WOMEN DIED IN THE AD, IT'S BECAUSE THEY FELT THE NEED TO SEXUALIZE THE WOMEN DYING THAT IS THE CAUSE OF CONTROVERSY!!

Can we stop with the fucking 'if it were men you wouldn't be angry' bullshit now? Because if it were men, then they wouldn't be being sexualized!! Which is the reason that there was a controversy!

My god I can't believe so many people can read the woman's article and completely miss the point that she made over and over again and instead make up an argument born of their own imagination and diminish it.
Can you say 'Straw man in pathetic attempt to portray wounded puppy routine'?

I've already made a massive post on this so I'll leave the link for it:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.376929-My-views-on-the-controversy-over-the-new-Hitman-trailer?page=2#14702444

No offence Grey, but I'd hoped you of all people would have a better understanding of what the issue was. I like your work, it's pretty smart and well done for the most part and I like the character Erin Stout that you created, I just don't like it when people add to the fire rather than put it out.

EDIT: Oh never mind, just saw that you quote mined one out-of-context section of her argument and didn't leave a link to the article for people check. I'm just going to leave a link and leave a quote from her article:

"Let's be clear here: the problem is not that Agent 47 is graphically murdering a group of women, though that's pretty nasty. It's that it fetishizes the violence and sexualises the women, drawing a clear line between sex and graphic violence that makes the trailer really distressing to watch, and leaves you questioning who the hell it's designed to appeal to."

Source:http://au.ign.com/articles/2012/05/30/opinion-what-the-hell-is-with-that-hitman-trailer

EDIT: Also she doesn't project an ideology onto the ad, that bit about them 'deserving it' was just a passing reference.

I read both this post and the one you linked, and I have to say bravo.

I am much to jaded by this industry to even give a shit anymore. Long ago, I would have totally been all over this shit and do the exact same thing as you did, but I just don't have it in me anymore. It all just started to sound the same, the next controversy coming up, and the people who completely and utterly miss the point of the original argument, it all feels so useless to keep repeating the same thing over and over again to combat stupidity. While this will surely come off as haughty and pretentious, it's like people don't have reading comprehension or just go off on a few buzz words that the person said. It's not that I don't understand the counter argument of this being a non-issue, it's just that many people simply dismiss the controversy because they completely misunderstood the argument, as you've stated. It's just depressing, and it's always nice to see someone who can actually read.

Must stop watching hitman absolution ads they just make me less and less willing to buy the game. Don't make it look like an action game...please?

I would say that plan B has promise but if it fails we may need to use male stippers in plan C as he seems to be immune to women parts.

rbstewart7263:

nightwolf667:
You know, it's trailers like this make me want to go to every game development studio on the planet and make all the men there spend a few days tip toeing around in stilettos. They can run, jump, and attempt to play sports in them too! Maybe after a few twisted/broken ankles they'd finally get the hint that as nice as they make a girl's rump look, it's not suitable combat footwear. Actually, let's include comic book companies, TV and movie studios in that equation too. It's one of the many reasons why I won't be seeing Catwoman in the new Batman movie.

Honestly, I'd kill for more games to show women dressing practically for the situations they're approaching and not dressing them for titillation. As many people have said: that's what makes this sexist. Honestly, that's the part about sexualization of violence/majority of action girls that really bugs me. It always assumes that the woman in question will A) use her looks to succeed and B) will dress for eye candy. It handicaps the characters themselves and the viewer will automatically assume that they are bad at or less capable than the men surrounding them because of the way they are dressed. Super skin tight clothing usually means one is less capable of fluid movement, especially when they're teetering around on tiny spikes with the balls of their feet arched way up.

All that said, good comic! :D

Captcha: Age before beauty... Applicable?

Not all media is meant to evoke hyper realism alot of games end up appearing bland and boring because of this. The battle nuns(lmao god that word) evoke a very kill billesqueness to me. And dont tell me that style has not been apart of the hitman series I dont see the hitman wearing a guilly suit when hes in the jungle i see him in a badass tux cause its a videogame not a navy seals documentary.

Hyper realism? How about we just settle for average realism? The problem is not about what Hitman is wearing, he's fine. He's wearing flats, a clean shirt and tie, it's meant to evoke mob imagery or at least our general view of an assassin. A business man. He's a professional. What he's wearing defines who he is for the viewer, you can see it and so can I. As you said, it's part of the series. But the way they've dressed those women in the trailer is wrong and it is very sexist.

Sure, it may be the Frank Miller kind of sexism where dressing women up like prostitutes and making them kill people in lingerie is supposed to be considered empowering. But the truth is, it's not. But some say: "They're action heroes! Look how well they can prance around on those teeny tiny stilettos and still kick people's asses!" I don't know, apparently they're so awesome needed a handicap? Or maybe they're just totally lacking in self-respect. In the real world stillettos will get a person killed in a combat situation. A woman can't even run in them or if she does, she runs very badly. If someone is in the fight of their life, they're going to kick off the shoes. They need the balance and they need the mobility. You go and say: but you don't need realism! No, but from a competency perspective, from a character perspective, and from a story perspective, these women can't possibly be competent at their jobs. And there were seven of them.

The Hitman is ultimately about a business man and he dresses like a business man. His clothing defines him as being in a position of power. He's getting dressed, these women as they go into battle are getting undressed. He came dressed for business, they came for a bondage spree. He's one, they are many. His outfit makes sense for his job, theirs, well, it's a stripper porn magazine spread.

Their existence serves no purpose other than to titillate and be killed, possibly being killed for their titillation. The Hitman is handing it out to those dirty naughty nuns, those bad, bad nuns. They deserve what's coming to them, is what the game is saying. It's not even subtext. From the way their dressed, we as the audience know that we were never supposed to take them seriously as. The only value they have is in the way they look and their only purpose is to be killed off. The trailer is the worst kind of casual sexism, it emphasizes over and over again that the only value women in media is their looks. A woman can't be competent unless she's sexy, her only worth is defined by the few brief seconds she's on camera and how much the male viewer enjoys watching her walk. She can only be dangerous if she's beautiful. Tits, feet, then face. Humanize the Hitman, watch him beat up plasticine dolls.

You can say, but it's just a trailer. It doesn't mean any harm. It's always been part of the imagery in the past. There's nothing to be angry about. Then, frankly, you're wrong. It's disgusting. It's offensive. It's annoying and it's everywhere. Me? I'm tired of this trope. Over and over, me and thousands of women like me are hit over and over, every day with these images. You're only worth is your looks, buy our cosmetics. You want to be the hero of your own story? Haha, you can't! That's a man's job, baby! Your husband's brutalizing you? Don't worry it's all okay, you deserve it. Remember, you can't get anywhere in life unless someone (a man) finds you attractive. (Insert very slim, miniscule, media defined version of female beauty here.) Don't be too intelligent sweetheart, if you are, no one will want you.

Hence my comment: I wish I could make all men who draw, insist, film, write about action women in stilettos. It's about respect. About treating women, across the board, as characters, as people, and not sexual gratification for violence. Yeah, I get it, it's "sexy". But you know what, you go to the shooting range in strapped on stilettos and make a few attempts at firing a handgun, maybe even a rifle. Go on, I'll wait.

TLDR: Don't put women in stilettos because it's silly, sexual gratification over violence isn't cool. Let's have the Hitman perform the whole game in them, he can sashay too, it'll be fun!

rbstewart7263:
And dont tell me that style has not been apart of the hitman series I dont see the hitman wearing a guilly suit when hes in the jungle i see him in a badass tux cause its a videogame not a navy seals documentary.

Then replay the original game or Silent Assassin. What's he wearing in the rainforest? Right, that would be cammo... Granted, it's not a ghillie suit... but still... He blends into his environment. Most missions start you off in the suit and tie, but unless you're playing as a rampaging psychopath, one of the first things you always need to do, is find a way to blend in.

I wanted to thank everyone who got to this point before I did. The fact that they're women is not the problem.

Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back. I mean sure, the nuns have weapons, but they're also wearing fetish outfits and stripper heels. I can't even walk fast in heels, much less fight someone.

If the trailer was of a guy exclusively killing men in stripper outfits, I would be pretty weirded out about that too.

TMM:
I'd just like to share a woman's perspective (my girlfriends) Got permission to post this, of course :)

(01:10:37 AM) ok, I'm a little turned on by the nuns.
(01:10:42 AM) I mean a lot turned on.

<discussion about this discussion>

(02:01:33 AM) now, mind you, the fact that they're not just women but women dressed up as sexy s&m nuns does sort of make it slightly exploitative, but why the fuck not. I just watched Thor, and that was two straight hours of me objectifying men.
(02:01:44 AM) because damn, yum

(02:04:01 AM) I still think "BEEFCAKE OMG!" every time I see the guy who played thor.
(02:04:27 AM) but yeah, there were copious amounts of drool and me objectifying men during that movie.
(02:04:40 AM) I'd watch the avengers even if it was crap, just for the eyecandy.
(02:05:42 AM) so yeah, it's not like it doesn't go both ways. it's just that when it's done to please men it carries all sorts of uncomfortable historical nastyness with it, so we're sensitive.

You and your friend are missing the point. Attractive men by themselves is not objectifying men, neither is having an attractive woman objectifying women. The point is that the women in this case are wearing fetish outfits designed for the sole purpose of being sexy, despite the countless issues with practicality.

The characters in Thor and Avengers are all wearing practical armor (except Hulk, but eh) and none of them are fetishistic. If all the male characters were "great warriors", who fight in only chainmail thongs, then we can talk about objectifying men. Like the Spartans in 300.

Here's what I think we should learn from this people:

1. Objectifying women is wrong.
2. Men like myself need to understand and realize the privilege they implicitly carry with them every day of their lives.
3. Nobody thinks killing a woman in a videogame is the end of the world, but killing a purposefully sexual woman, meant to titillate (even if it doesn't turn you on, it's the intent that counts), in a glorified, violent manner, is wrong.
4. Stupid trailers are stupid.

Now, let's leave this attention whoring garbage where it belongs, think of and treat each other as equals, and work for a better tomorrow.

The More You Know...

(Still though, if I hear another person tell me why I'm "pro-rape" for not cursing the entire videogame industry after this, I might just kill myself.)

Taunta:
I wanted to thank everyone who got to this point before I did. The fact that they're women is not the problem.

Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back. I mean sure, the nuns have weapons, but they're also wearing fetish outfits and stripper heels. I can't even walk fast in heels, much less fight someone.

And yet, they were able to land several, solid hits on him. So it obviously the shoes weren't as massive a hindrance as you make it out to be. And the rest of their outfits didn't seem to have any effects on their abilities whatsoever.

Buretsu:

Taunta:
I wanted to thank everyone who got to this point before I did. The fact that they're women is not the problem.

Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back. I mean sure, the nuns have weapons, but they're also wearing fetish outfits and stripper heels. I can't even walk fast in heels, much less fight someone.

And yet, they were able to land several, solid hits on him. So it obviously the shoes weren't as massive a hindrance as you make it out to be. And the rest of their outfits didn't seem to have any effects on their abilities whatsoever.

True, but you're acting as if this was an actual, fluid event, and not some predetermined, desperate cry to publicity created by a group of marketing people. These are virtual models, remember, deliberately put in extremely sexual outfits and deliberately killed in those outfits. The idea is to turn you on (whether you get turned on by virtual women is another question) and then get you revved up watching them die. That's a weird, slightly disturbing combo, no?

Buretsu:

Taunta:
I wanted to thank everyone who got to this point before I did. The fact that they're women is not the problem.

Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back. I mean sure, the nuns have weapons, but they're also wearing fetish outfits and stripper heels. I can't even walk fast in heels, much less fight someone.

And yet, they were able to land several, solid hits on him. So it obviously the shoes weren't as massive a hindrance as you make it out to be. And the rest of their outfits didn't seem to have any effects on their abilities whatsoever.

What do you mean "no effects on their abilities whatsoever"? They all died. To a single guy. That's a pretty big effect if you ask me.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never worn high heels in public, much less in any life-threatening situation. As a woman, I'll tell you that if I have to run, the first thing that happens is taking off the heels. Hell, they become extremely painful to wear while just standing around for more than an hour.

Have you ever wondered why women in real life who do physically demanding activities aren't wearing stripper outfits? Softball players tend to wear T-shirts, shorts, tennis shoes and sports bras. Soccer players tend to wear the same, except with shin guards. You know, like for protection? Why do you think that is?

If the women looked like they had any capability of fighting back, there wouldn't be so much concern. But when the purpose of their outfits is to look sexy and nothing else, even when said outfits realistically pose life-threatening danger to them, there's a dis-empowerment problem.

Jeff Dunn:

Buretsu:

Taunta:
I wanted to thank everyone who got to this point before I did. The fact that they're women is not the problem.

Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back. I mean sure, the nuns have weapons, but they're also wearing fetish outfits and stripper heels. I can't even walk fast in heels, much less fight someone.

And yet, they were able to land several, solid hits on him. So it obviously the shoes weren't as massive a hindrance as you make it out to be. And the rest of their outfits didn't seem to have any effects on their abilities whatsoever.

True, but you're acting as if this was an actual event, and not some desperate cry to publicity created by a group of marketing people. These are virtual models, remember, deliberately put in extremely sexual outfits and deliberately killed in those outfits. The idea is to turn you on (whether you get turned on by virtual women is another question) and then get you revved up watching them die. That's a weird, slightly disturbing combo, no?

No, I'm acting as if it was a trailer for a video game, and not some sort of snuff porn featuring real women getting beaten and murdered. These are virtual models, remember, mere hunks of pixels given the general shape of a woman in revealing clothes.

Of course, I question your standards, if you're fine with women getting beaten and slaughtered, as long as they "look like they can fight back", regardless of their actual capability to fight back. That's kind of messed up, no?

Taunta:

Buretsu:

Taunta:
I wanted to thank everyone who got to this point before I did. The fact that they're women is not the problem.

Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back. I mean sure, the nuns have weapons, but they're also wearing fetish outfits and stripper heels. I can't even walk fast in heels, much less fight someone.

And yet, they were able to land several, solid hits on him. So it obviously the shoes weren't as massive a hindrance as you make it out to be. And the rest of their outfits didn't seem to have any effects on their abilities whatsoever.

What do you mean "no effects on their abilities whatsoever"? They all died. To a single guy. That's a pretty big effect if you ask me.

They died to Agent 47, a man who was cloned to be an assassin, raised to be an assassin, trained as an assassin, and has several video games under his belt where he acted as a highly trained, highly skilled assassin, who takes out targets tougher than these women on a regular basis.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never worn high heels in public, much less in any life-threatening situation. As a woman, I'll tell you that if I have to run, the first thing that happens is taking off the heels. Hell, they become extremely painful to wear while just standing around for more than an hour.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never been trained to be a killer, while wearing those shoes.

Have you ever wondered why women in real life who do physically demanding activities aren't wearing stripper outfits? Softball players tend to wear T-shirts, shorts, tennis shoes and sports bras. Soccer players tend to wear the same, except with shin guards. You know, like for protection? Why do you think that is?

Because they're not assassins.

If the women looked like they had any capability of fighting back, there wouldn't be so much concern. But when the purpose of their outfits is to look sexy and nothing else, even when said outfits realistically pose life-threatening danger to them, there's a dis-empowerment problem.

Again, I question why they just need to look like they could fight back, regardless of the clear ability they have to fight back, considering that even against someone like Agent 47, they didn't just die instantly, and in fact were able to land solid hits on him. I posit that against a lesser man, they would have been highly successful. They just picked the wrong target.

Buretsu:

Jeff Dunn:

Buretsu:

And yet, they were able to land several, solid hits on him. So it obviously the shoes weren't as massive a hindrance as you make it out to be. And the rest of their outfits didn't seem to have any effects on their abilities whatsoever.

True, but you're acting as if this was an actual event, and not some desperate cry to publicity created by a group of marketing people. These are virtual models, remember, deliberately put in extremely sexual outfits and deliberately killed in those outfits. The idea is to turn you on (whether you get turned on by virtual women is another question) and then get you revved up watching them die. That's a weird, slightly disturbing combo, no?

No, I'm acting as if it was a trailer for a video game, and not some sort of snuff porn featuring real women getting beaten and murdered. These are virtual models, remember, mere hunks of pixels given the general shape of a woman in revealing clothes.

Of course, I question your standards, if you're fine with women getting beaten and slaughtered, as long as they "look like they can fight back", regardless of their actual capability to fight back. That's kind of messed up, no?

I apologize if I came off as condescending. Anyways...

If you can separate your games from reality well enough to completely ignore the message being implied here, then more power to you. But games often reflect reality, and game trailers like these sure as shit try to appeal to real people. They want to sell copies, right? Trailers do that. This whole thing was orchestrated to look cool to other people.

This trailer in particular sends a weird message; that's my point. It wants (that's the key word) you to have a boner (haha boner lololol) while you watch the sexy nun killer women get killed. That's what disturbed me.

Not sure where you're finding me say that it's okay for women to get beaten and slaughtered as long as they "look like they can fight back." Point out where I supposedly imply that and I'll try to clear up what I meant. I'm not trying to sound pretentious there again, I'm just genuinely confused at how you made that connection.

Jeff Dunn:

Buretsu:

Jeff Dunn:

True, but you're acting as if this was an actual event, and not some desperate cry to publicity created by a group of marketing people. These are virtual models, remember, deliberately put in extremely sexual outfits and deliberately killed in those outfits. The idea is to turn you on (whether you get turned on by virtual women is another question) and then get you revved up watching them die. That's a weird, slightly disturbing combo, no?

No, I'm acting as if it was a trailer for a video game, and not some sort of snuff porn featuring real women getting beaten and murdered. These are virtual models, remember, mere hunks of pixels given the general shape of a woman in revealing clothes.

Of course, I question your standards, if you're fine with women getting beaten and slaughtered, as long as they "look like they can fight back", regardless of their actual capability to fight back. That's kind of messed up, no?

I apologize if I came off as condescending. Anyways...

If you can separate your games from reality well enough to completely ignore the message being implied here, then more power to you. But games often reflect reality, and game trailers like these sure as shit try to appeal to real people. They want to sell copies, right? Trailers do that. This whole thing was orchestrated to look cool to other people.

Exactly. By showing Agent 47 being a complete BAMF the way everybody's used to seeing him.

This trailer in particular sends a weird message; that's my point. It wants (that's the key word) you to have a boner (haha boner lololol) while you watch the sexy nun killer women get killed. That's what disturbed me.

I don't think that was the intent at all. It was so far camp, that you can't really take it seriously. It's like the villain femme fatales in James Bond movies, with the ludicrously oversexualized names that you just have to laugh (Go on, try to say the name "Pussy Galore" without snickering to yourself)

Not sure where you're finding me say that it's okay for women to get beaten and slaughtered as long as they "look like they can fight back." Point out where I supposedly imply that and I'll try to clear up what I meant. I'm not trying to sound pretentious there again, I'm just genuinely confused at how you made that connection.

"Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back." Your exact words.

Buretsu:

Taunta:

Buretsu:

And yet, they were able to land several, solid hits on him. So it obviously the shoes weren't as massive a hindrance as you make it out to be. And the rest of their outfits didn't seem to have any effects on their abilities whatsoever.

What do you mean "no effects on their abilities whatsoever"? They all died. To a single guy. That's a pretty big effect if you ask me.

They died to Agent 47, a man who was cloned to be an assassin, raised to be an assassin, trained as an assassin, and has several video games under his belt where he acted as a highly trained, highly skilled assassin, who takes out targets tougher than these women on a regular basis.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never worn high heels in public, much less in any life-threatening situation. As a woman, I'll tell you that if I have to run, the first thing that happens is taking off the heels. Hell, they become extremely painful to wear while just standing around for more than an hour.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never been trained to be a killer, while wearing those shoes.

Have you ever wondered why women in real life who do physically demanding activities aren't wearing stripper outfits? Softball players tend to wear T-shirts, shorts, tennis shoes and sports bras. Soccer players tend to wear the same, except with shin guards. You know, like for protection? Why do you think that is?

Because they're not assassins.

If the women looked like they had any capability of fighting back, there wouldn't be so much concern. But when the purpose of their outfits is to look sexy and nothing else, even when said outfits realistically pose life-threatening danger to them, there's a dis-empowerment problem.

Again, I question why they just need to look like they could fight back, regardless of the clear ability they have to fight back, considering that even against someone like Agent 47, they didn't just die instantly, and in fact were able to land solid hits on him. I posit that against a lesser man, they would have been highly successful. They just picked the wrong target.

Being an assassin is just an occupation choice like any other. It doesn't give you super powers, it doesn't give you a disregard for your self-preservation instinct, and it doesn't suddenly make you an idiot.

Soccer and softball players wear these things not because they're not assassins, but because they're the right tools for the job. Your logic doesn't make sense to me, because you would think an assassin would go out of their way to be successful at their occupation, none of which involves putting on a stripper outfit to titillate an imaginary male audience. 47 is an assassin too. Under that logic, why doesn't he go to battle in a thong?

Let me give you another real life example: What do you think women in spec. ops wear? Women who you would consider assassins?

I'm going to disagree on your definition of "solid hits". He got punched a few times, and a scrape across his back. He's going to walk out of there with a few bruises and a cut. No broken limbs, no bullet wounds, no stab wounds, no mortal injuries, no nothing.

I think you need to watch the video again. A few of them got killed right off the bat before any of them even noticed. I think that's the exact definition of "died instantly".

Why do they need to look like they can fight back? I'll give you two answers:

1) From a purely objective standpoint, if 47 is supposed to be so badass, and you're supposed to think that he's a badass, why did the creators of the trailer make a conscious decision to make him fight a group exclusively made of women who look like strippers? Wouldn't he look more badass if he was fighting a group of women in bullet-proof armor? That's like saying this guy is so badass because he beats up kids from the orphanage.

2) When the hero of your game, who you're supposed to agree with, is murdering a group of people who are exclusively sex symbols, you're sexualizing violence against dis-empowered people. And that is a bad thing.

"Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back." Your exact words.

That wasn't him, that was me.

Buretsu:

Jeff Dunn:

Buretsu:

No, I'm acting as if it was a trailer for a video game, and not some sort of snuff porn featuring real women getting beaten and murdered. These are virtual models, remember, mere hunks of pixels given the general shape of a woman in revealing clothes.

Of course, I question your standards, if you're fine with women getting beaten and slaughtered, as long as they "look like they can fight back", regardless of their actual capability to fight back. That's kind of messed up, no?

I apologize if I came off as condescending. Anyways...

If you can separate your games from reality well enough to completely ignore the message being implied here, then more power to you. But games often reflect reality, and game trailers like these sure as shit try to appeal to real people. They want to sell copies, right? Trailers do that. This whole thing was orchestrated to look cool to other people.

Exactly. By showing Agent 47 being a complete BAMF the way everybody's used to seeing him.

This trailer in particular sends a weird message; that's my point. It wants (that's the key word) you to have a boner (haha boner lololol) while you watch the sexy nun killer women get killed. That's what disturbed me.

I don't think that was the intent at all. It was so far camp, that you can't really take it seriously. It's like the villain femme fatales in James Bond movies, with the ludicrously oversexualized names that you just have to laugh (Go on, try to say the name "Pussy Galore" without snickering to yourself)

Not sure where you're finding me say that it's okay for women to get beaten and slaughtered as long as they "look like they can fight back." Point out where I supposedly imply that and I'll try to clear up what I meant. I'm not trying to sound pretentious there again, I'm just genuinely confused at how you made that connection.

"Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back." Your exact words.

Lol. Not quite "exact words," but yeah, women in video games, sure. I blew up Nuketown after all. You made it sound like I meant women in general. That was the source of confusion on my end. The problem here, as has been said, is the sexualization of the women being killed, not solely the fact that they're women.

Either way, I'm not arguing about this anymore. Just looks like we saw one thing two different ways. I don't think my view is necessarily infallible, but I'll stick to my guns on this one, just from the sidelines now.

Taunta:
Being an assassin is just an occupation choice like any other. It doesn't give you super powers, it doesn't give you a disregard for your self-preservation instinct, and it doesn't suddenly make you an idiot.

Agent 47 kills people while wearing a tux. Hardly the clothes one wears while trying to be stealthy and kill people. And this is a fictional fantasy world, where we're expected to believe that clones can be raised and trained as assassins with superhuman abilities.

Soccer and softball players wear these things not because they're not assassins, but because they're the right tools for the job. Your logic doesn't make sense to me, because you would think an assassin would go out of their way to be successful at their occupation, none of which involves putting on a stripper outfit to titillate an imaginary male audience.

No, being an assassin involves killing people. The outfits don't stop them from killing people, therefore what does it matter what they wear? If they kill their target, they're safe from harm, so they hardly need full battle armor.

47 is an assassin too. Under that logic, why doesn't he go to battle in a thong?

Because he chooses not to.

Let me give you another real life example: What do you think women in spec. ops wear? Women who you would consider assassins? I'll give you a hint: it's not revealing clothing.

Again, this is a fictional, fantasy world. Realism isn't exactly high on the list of things to include in the game.

I'm going to disagree on your definition of "solid hits". He got punched a few times, and a scrape across his back. He's going to walk out of there with a few bruises and a cut. No broken limbs, no bullet wounds, no stab wounds, no mortal injuries, no nothing.

I think you need to watch the video again. A few of them got killed right off the bat before any of them even noticed. I think that's the exact definition of "died instantly".

Yes, because they were foolish, and off-guard because they thought that a single rocket launcher attack was enough to take out their target. And he's going to walk out, because he's that damn good at what he does.

[quote[Why do they need to look like they can fight back? I'll give you two answers:

1) From a purely objective standpoint, if 47 is supposed to be so badass, and you're supposed to think that he's a badass, why did the creators of the trailer make a conscious decision to make him fight a group exclusively made of women who look like strippers? Wouldn't he look more badass if he was fighting a group of women in bullet-proof armor? That's like saying this guy is so badass because he beats up kids from the orphanage.[/quote]

He's so badass, because these women are so good, they can wear what-the-fuck-ever they choose to wear, and they still lost to Agent 47 in a sensible tux. But again, we're getting into the point where you don't seem to care that women get killed, as long as they look like they should be.

2) When the hero of your game, who you're supposed to agree with, is murdering a group of people who are exclusively sex symbols, you're sexualizing violence against dis-empowered people. And that is a bad thing.

He's an assassin. He kills people for hire. He's not the type of person one is generally supposed to agree with. And he's killing a group of people who are assassins first, and sex symbols second. Let's not confuse the matter.

Jeff Dunn:

Buretsu:

Jeff Dunn:

I apologize if I came off as condescending. Anyways...

If you can separate your games from reality well enough to completely ignore the message being implied here, then more power to you. But games often reflect reality, and game trailers like these sure as shit try to appeal to real people. They want to sell copies, right? Trailers do that. This whole thing was orchestrated to look cool to other people.

Exactly. By showing Agent 47 being a complete BAMF the way everybody's used to seeing him.

This trailer in particular sends a weird message; that's my point. It wants (that's the key word) you to have a boner (haha boner lololol) while you watch the sexy nun killer women get killed. That's what disturbed me.

I don't think that was the intent at all. It was so far camp, that you can't really take it seriously. It's like the villain femme fatales in James Bond movies, with the ludicrously oversexualized names that you just have to laugh (Go on, try to say the name "Pussy Galore" without snickering to yourself)

Not sure where you're finding me say that it's okay for women to get beaten and slaughtered as long as they "look like they can fight back." Point out where I supposedly imply that and I'll try to clear up what I meant. I'm not trying to sound pretentious there again, I'm just genuinely confused at how you made that connection.

"Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back." Your exact words.

Lol. Not quite "exact words," but yeah, women in video games, sure.

No, those were literally your exact words, directly copied and pasted from your post. Don't know why you're so intent on denying it...

Buretsu:

Jeff Dunn:

Buretsu:

Exactly. By showing Agent 47 being a complete BAMF the way everybody's used to seeing him.

I don't think that was the intent at all. It was so far camp, that you can't really take it seriously. It's like the villain femme fatales in James Bond movies, with the ludicrously oversexualized names that you just have to laugh (Go on, try to say the name "Pussy Galore" without snickering to yourself)

"Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back." Your exact words.

Lol. Not quite "exact words," but yeah, women in video games, sure.

No, those were literally your exact words, directly copied and pasted from your post. Don't know why you're so intent on denying it...

Nope. I'm Jeff. Lol. That's Taunta, the other person you're debating at the moment.

Jeff Dunn:
Nope. I'm Jeff. Lol. That's Taunta, the other person you're debating at the moment.

Yeah, but you... and then, I... and you...

...damn you for embedding someone else's quote in your post >.< ...

Buretsu:

Taunta:
Being an assassin is just an occupation choice like any other. It doesn't give you super powers, it doesn't give you a disregard for your self-preservation instinct, and it doesn't suddenly make you an idiot.

Agent 47 kills people while wearing a tux. Hardly the clothes one wears while trying to be stealthy and kill people. And this is a fictional fantasy world, where we're expected to believe that clones can be raised and trained as assassins with superhuman abilities.

Soccer and softball players wear these things not because they're not assassins, but because they're the right tools for the job. Your logic doesn't make sense to me, because you would think an assassin would go out of their way to be successful at their occupation, none of which involves putting on a stripper outfit to titillate an imaginary male audience.

No, being an assassin involves killing people. The outfits don't stop them from killing people, therefore what does it matter what they wear? If they kill their target, they're safe from harm, so they hardly need full battle armor.

47 is an assassin too. Under that logic, why doesn't he go to battle in a thong?

Because he chooses not to.

Let me give you another real life example: What do you think women in spec. ops wear? Women who you would consider assassins? I'll give you a hint: it's not revealing clothing.

Again, this is a fictional, fantasy world. Realism isn't exactly high on the list of things to include in the game.

I'm going to disagree on your definition of "solid hits". He got punched a few times, and a scrape across his back. He's going to walk out of there with a few bruises and a cut. No broken limbs, no bullet wounds, no stab wounds, no mortal injuries, no nothing.

I think you need to watch the video again. A few of them got killed right off the bat before any of them even noticed. I think that's the exact definition of "died instantly".

Yes, because they were foolish, and off-guard because they thought that a single rocket launcher attack was enough to take out their target. And he's going to walk out, because he's that damn good at what he does.

[quote[Why do they need to look like they can fight back? I'll give you two answers:

1) From a purely objective standpoint, if 47 is supposed to be so badass, and you're supposed to think that he's a badass, why did the creators of the trailer make a conscious decision to make him fight a group exclusively made of women who look like strippers? Wouldn't he look more badass if he was fighting a group of women in bullet-proof armor? That's like saying this guy is so badass because he beats up kids from the orphanage.[/quote]

He's so badass, because these women are so good, they can wear what-the-fuck-ever they choose to wear, and they still lost to Agent 47 in a sensible tux. But again, we're getting into the point where you don't seem to care that women get killed, as long as they look like they should be.

2) When the hero of your game, who you're supposed to agree with, is murdering a group of people who are exclusively sex symbols, you're sexualizing violence against dis-empowered people. And that is a bad thing.

He's an assassin. He kills people for hire. He's not the type of person one is generally supposed to agree with. And he's killing a group of people who are assassins first, and sex symbols second. Let's not confuse the matter.

You're right on the tux point, but still the suit is not as revealing as a leather bustier, but now we're just splitting hairs. I think it's less "he chooses not to" and more "the developers chose for him not to." I realize you're supposed to suspend your disbelief a little, but when all of the enemies in the trailer are wearing fetish outfits for no other practical purpose than to provide eye candy for the audience, it's betraying the motivations of the people behind it, and the people behind it made it because they believe people enjoy seeing a curb-stomp fight between one guy in a suit and like seven scantily-clad women. And that disturbs me.

So you claimed the outfits wouldn't put them at a disadvantage, and now it's just because "this is just a video game, it's not supposed to be realistic"? Which is it? You can't just plug your fingers in your ears and pretend like the outfits won't put them at a disadvantage just because they're apparently superhuman. It's not that unrealistic, most other real world rules seem to work just fine.

And now you're getting to my point. No, I don't care that the virtual women got killed, to be completely honest. The fact that they're women is completely irrelevant to my overall point. After all, the double standard that killing women is wrong while killing men is acceptable is stupid. As I stated in my original post, if they were scantily-clad men, I would be just as disturbed. If 47 was strangling kittens wearing bikinis, I would be just as disturbed.

Buretsu:

Jeff Dunn:
Nope. I'm Jeff. Lol. That's Taunta, the other person you're debating at the moment.

Yeah, but you... and then, I... and you...

...damn you for embedding someone else's quote in your post >.< ...

It happens to the best of us my man. No hard feelings, haha.

Let me clear up a few illusions paraded about by the majority of feminists who hold voice within the media.

There groups promote the strength of women.

Feminists groups more often than not create a victim complex to instill into there followers and associates.(Ie: I am constantly a victim of some wrong true or imagined) The basis for this is true historically and in some sectors today. But When someone has a victim complex they begin to project their feelings of helplessness onto the world they live in. That neighbor of yours who's honestly just a decent guy but he brought a girl home with him from the bar last night? sexist how dare he serial rape someone. This assumption being instant and without knowledge of whether the girl was drunk or not. So with the law and social bias against women dwindling(There are a few left but you have to LOOK for it. Our society doesnt care what color or sex you are everyone gets exploited equally)These victims must find new outlets to project themselves onto. So the media becomes the next target until every scene involving a woman is mitigated into some sort of 50/50 fair shake kind of fantasy.(because in real life nature its self doles out its triumphs and losses 50/50) This is unfortunate and tragic as anyone with a victim complex who is self aware will tell you its a crippling fantasy that weakens you and has you pointing fingers rather than using them to create things, to better ones self in the world.

Strong women don't notice this crap.

A strong woman can watch this trailer and would go "shrug thats cool" and not turn this mole hill into a mountain.

Strong women are my favorite to associate with they dont read every word coming out of my mouth like im itching to put them down.They can take a joke. There fun to hang with and can be relied upon as good friends(god knows ive a ton of em) theyl let you be a guy without you having to flajulate yourself for wanting to see a womans naked body.

Am I the only one who thinks might just be a a joke from their side? "How do we make this trailer look as ridiculous as possible?"

Only just stumbled on this.

Last paragraph... *applause* Well said.

Matthew94:
So it's misogynistic to kill women but mowing down legions of men in every game is ok?

I'm sure you've heard of the "You can't hit a girl" rule? I'm assuming that's why. I never have followed that rule, female or male, you are a human being and deserve the same level of respect.

Boris Goodenough:
Am I the only one who thinks might just be a a joke from their side? "How do we make this trailer look as ridiculous as possible?"

No, because it honestly looks more like, "How do we make this trailer look as awesome as possible?"

For this to be a joke, the trailer would be 180 degrees from literally every other piece of publicity out there. It's fetishistic violence that takes it's visual cues from Tarantino and Rodriguez. There's no overt gags, no real humor, just 47 beating the shit out of people.

Starke:
No, because it honestly looks more like, "How do we make this trailer look as awesome as possible?"

For this to be a joke, the trailer would be 180 degrees from literally every other piece of publicity out there. It's fetishistic violence that takes it's visual cues from Tarantino and Rodriguez. There's no overt gags, no real humor, just 47 beating the shit out of people.

Ridicolous can be awesome.
Yes because Tarantino believes all what he does in the ridiculous department.
And not it doesn't have to, where does it say that?

Although I agree to the point of people thinking the trailer is in bad taste. I donīt agree that this should be a problem because he is killing scandly clad women.

women donīt have to dress like dudes to be cool. Sure skintight leather might be a bridge to far. But if you have yourself an all female murder gang, the `femme fatale` kind of outfit would be a pretty logical choice, not dressing up like a bunch of dudes. And if you try to kill agent 47, you get f'd up. No matter what your wearing.

That being said the worst thing about it really, is our predictability. Because there is no such thing as bad publicity and boy, are we talking about this.

[captcha: ladies, first. classic stuff]

Boris Goodenough:

Starke:
No, because it honestly looks more like, "How do we make this trailer look as awesome as possible?"

For this to be a joke, the trailer would be 180 degrees from literally every other piece of publicity out there. It's fetishistic violence that takes it's visual cues from Tarantino and Rodriguez. There's no overt gags, no real humor, just 47 beating the shit out of people.

Ridicolous can be awesome.
Yes because Tarantino believes all what he does in the ridiculous department.
And not it doesn't have to, where does it say that?

It says it by not being funny. There's no joke. Nothing amusing. To be fair, I wouldn't call it disturbing either, but my own apathy towards brutality is pretty well documented.

I'm tempted to drag up that old line about porn... "I don't know what parody is, but I know it when I see it," this isn't parody. It's not wandering into the ridiculous to tell a joke. It's really trying to be serious, edgy, and whatever other random adjective that some exec wanted in the add.

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