Jimquisition: The Positive Side to Punching Nuns

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I don't care one whit about "oh they're (good-looking) women, they can't be hit, that's not cool" etc. etc.

The important thing about this is that they're nuns because a) "controversy gets attention!" and they're hot women because b) "hot women get attention!" and they're toting guns because c) "guns are cool". All of these conclusions have been reached because they are thinking of all gamers as the immature children who love stuff like this. If it seems innately chauvinistic, that's because it probably is meant to be. That's publicity, baby!

Oh wait, you mean we AREN'T all excited about gushing neck stumps and close-up violence against S+M nuns? Then I guess it's time for advertisers to stop treating us like 8-year-old magpies and give us... oh I don't know... gameplay? How about that? CG cutscenes mean jack shit in this day and age, but advertisers still think that graphics matter more than the game itself, somehow, and we get those instead.

Don't argue that they're "battle-nuns" and that they knew what they were getting into because they're deadly killers. It's that same shit from MGS4. They don't just happen to be hot young women by total coincidence or even some special hiring method; a person or group of people from the studio decided that's who they were because sex and violence (they still think) sells. No amount of story in the game would make these characters make sense in-universe. They are walking billboards saying, "pay attention to me!" to the company that makes the video game.

The only problem I have with the video is that the outfits make no logical sense, to a hitman game. Sexualising women in games? I don't care, because men are equally sexualised/degraded as these big hulking masses of manly man, games about normal dudes, have equally normal women. Hell look at that trailer for example, they've tried to make 47 look slightly sexy/ragged undressing so slowly and all that jazz, he's a hitman who has been conveyed as being sleek and stylish through the entire series, this trailer is just a shambles. The fighting was pretty cool though.

PhantomEcho:
While I appreciate your attempts to use my words to accentuate your point, the fact of the matter remains that I fundamentally DISAPPROVE of the course of 'conversation' which is going on. Not because of the content of the video, whether it amused your or not, but on the basis of it's continuing the popularization of individuals climbing up onto their soapboxes and condemning other people for having the 'nerve' to enjoy the things they do.

That's what this discussion is about. It's not about speaking against the objectification of women. It's not about people expecting a more mature tone from the medium of gaming. What this entire discussion is /actually/ about is individuals reinforcing themselves in the belief that if they throw enough stones at people who disagree with them, they might earn some extra kudos on the internet. This argument doesn't have a damn thing to do with people actually caring about the content of the trailer. INDIVIDUALS might be having that discussion, but it's certainly not all the people who make their livings by REPORTING on this stuff. They just want people to keep reading and writing what they have to say, so they take a position in any polarizing argument that comes along.

Maybe you don't like it! That's fine! It's good to know what you like and don't! But don't fool yourself into thinking that this argument is about anything more than the gaming media trying to stir up some controversy by acting shocked and affronted by something that it knows isn't SHOCKING or AFFRONTING. It's just media doing what media does best... stirring the pot.

Wow, you seem to have psychic powers. Somehow, you've figured out what every person who didn't like the trailer and want to talk about it is actually doing... trying to get attention and show off on the internet! Bravo! I didn't even realize it myself. I thought I was making the point that this trailer has actually HURT sales because "sex sells" was built for a different age and a different medium, and that we're more complex than to fall for overblown juvenile torture porn and that we've had just about enough of advertisers using such schlock to sell our games. I thought that IO had clearly labeled their audience as sweaty 13 year-old boys and nobody else and deeply insulted my and many others' class and intelligence (weirdly, both strong themes of the series thus far).

I also deluded myself into thinking that if someone is upset by something, they should speak up because advertisers and developers live in la-la land and only the loudest voices can reach them. If many people are upset (a large portion of the originally intended audience, perhaps) then I was thinking the company should take that as a cue to change their tactic. See also: Silent Hill: Book of Memories.

You seem to be (besides all-knowing and psychically attuned) very invested in this subject, more so than you should be. Could it be that you are used to and excited by this kind of thing and are feeling attacked because you're realizing that you're not the only person in the world whose opinion matters? It seems to me that you're the one without a very rational opinion here, and I wonder what stake you have in it then.

Wait a second: The problem is that women are sexualized and then violated?
I thought the problem is that it makes no sense... seriously I did.

Well now that I'm exposed to this new angle I have to say that since I'm a feminist so I think a women should be beaten up like any men. Equal rights and stuff.
Next time just cut the undress scene that was really sexist...

Shameless:
Movies and comic book have always overly sexualized women, I don't see what makes Video Games so different, I mean no one screamed at the makers of the Sucker Punch movie for sexualizing their women. Ana they were REAL women and not ones made by ones and zeroes.

so? sexualisation (the bad kind) sucks...no matter what medium or how long its been happening

This trailer could have easily been great and atmospheric. But it just devolves into sexualized violence.

Now here's the thing. A woman getting punched in the face is FINE! I am 100% in favour of punching women in the face in FICTIONAL MEDIA because equality works both sides. If a woman is depicted as an action character she is gonna get punched and shot at. Keep your domestic abuse bullshit for you, she isn't married or in a relationship with whoever is punching her. It's a hostile person intent on killing the character so of course it is going to come to blows.

However if she is first dressed up as a heavily make upped nun, then put a step further by making that a latex clad nun, you have crossed the line. Why? You now have no longer made it about a woman being punched in the face. But about a woman dressed as provocative and sleezy as possible to cater to horny teenagers, getting punched in the face.

You have gone from woman, to fetishized sex object.

Like I said they could have easily FIXED this trailer without even having to change the fact it's about Nun assassins. Have them keep their clothes on. Have them use stealth amongst the crowds to get close to 47.

Why did it have to be a braindead action melee brawl with explosions with women in fetish gear?

DVS BSTrD:

Vrach:

DVS BSTrD:
Well I never said there wasn't sexuality in Hitman, but this about context. As you said, that scene takes place at a RAVE: she's wearing a costume to a party. It can at least be justified as a disguise. These "nuns" wear fetish clothing simply to go out and kill someone. What part of shooting RPGs and assault rifles in a parking-lot require fishnet stockings? I've certainly got nothing against scantily clad women in video games (as much as I'd like to ;) but this just tasteless exploitation.

Yeah, it's a fair point, I'll give you that. But it still doesn't strike me as somehow outside the scope of what the series has done so far. I mean really think about the groups behind those rave parties. If one of those groups sent an assassin after you and it was a leather/fishnet clad woman, would you really be surprised? Personally, I wouldn't. From the feeling I've got of the series, those groups dress like that, it's what they're into, whether they're at a rave or going out for a kill.

Well then let's look at it from a professional point of view.

-A group of nuns approach on foot. (needlessly drawing attention to themselves and no chance of a quick evacuation in case the mission goes badly)
-Stripping to reveal leather lingerie, again out in the open.(destroys the point of having a disguise, nonfunctional clothing provides no discernible assets, done purely for contrast as if for an audience)
-Posing together in the middle of a parking lot (no cover, proximity to one another is such that they could be taken out by a single frag grenade)
-Firing an high-powered RPG round into a building. (excessive use of force again just for visual effect, not even bothering to confirm target's location)
-Slowly advancing toward the building (all approaching from the same side, all facing the same direction, no lookouts, had target still been in the area they believed he would almost certainly have been incapacitated. And if not, escape would have been easy since they still had not confirmed his location visually or otherwise)

This was not a professional hit job, this was an adolescent fantasy.

Where have I said "professional hit job"? I said I can totally imagine the enemy groups that we've had in Hitman doing this exact kind of hit. The nuns disguise was actually fine - I don't see how it attracts attention towards them unless you've never seen a nun in your life. The leather/fishnet clothing is just what those guys are into. I am not surprised they'd dress like that going for an actual kill.

Going together - really think about this. You're going after Hitman. Agent 47. That dude that can practically clear out an army base as long as the enemies are spaced out. The guy that never used a frag in his life. You wanna split up to attack him? I'll ask you again, have you ever played this game? Same for cover, all cover is to 47 is a good place to dump a corpse.

You know what? I'm gonna go and say it, if I were going out to kill him, this is exactly what I'd do (bar the fishnets and leather, but that's just cause it's not my thing). Go after him with a group, approach together, use excessive force. I've seen what Hitman has done. I've played the mission where they send the whole goddamn police force after him and he still gets away because the police is stupid enough to move in groups of 1 and 2. The last thing I'd say was his thing is taking out a group of people and the only reason he was able to do it here is because they were going one behind another instead of a horizontal single file.

edit: oh and don't get me wrong. I'm not "for" this ad. I'm not defending the fact they blatantly went out for exploitation of sex and violence. But it's not somehow unbecoming of Hitman. It doesn't fall out of the scope of the franchise, it's what Hitman was always like. It's like your racist grandparents, no, they're not ok, but you're not surprised by that shit anymore :P

BehattedWanderer:

Ariseishirou:

BehattedWanderer:

I did that in Saint's Row the Third, when I attacked the gimp house. Not the prime example you were thinking, I'm sure, but hey, you wanted an example. Though, there's quite a lot of anime that covers the topic.

Yeah, but you chose to set up the scenario that way in Saint's Row, you weren't trying to sell it to someone.

And which anime features a fully-clothed, non-sexualized woman beating up scantily-clad, heavily sexualized men? And isn't played for laughs, but is rather supposed to be gritty and serious? I'd be very curious to watch it.

You're not seriously going to try and sell me on the idea that the absolution trailer is to be taken serious, are you? And I'll give you that I don't have an example offhand, but Excel Saga comes to mind, though that's about as far from serious as can be. That's kind of the point, though--the scenario in question is nothing but ridiculous. They can do as many dramatic, tension building cuts as they like, and set it to a perfectly functional, atmospheric soundtrack, but the idea of "assassin fighting Latex-clad assassins dressed as nuns" is just laughable. It's something out of Looney Tunes, or Saints Row (but only 2 or 3).

It might not be deadly serious, and the premise in and of itself is certainly ludicrous, but the scenario in this case was most decidedly not played for laughs. It's very clear that the audience was supposed to find it stylish and cool and titillating, not hilarious (even if some people did find it amusing, it's clearly not a joke, nor is it meant to be).

Whereas in Excel Saga it's played for laughs. The audience is supposed to laugh at it. Find it amusing; as opposed to stylish, cool, sexually attractive.

So, yeah, still waiting on that example of it ever happening in reverse before.

u dont like violence in video games play wii sports and just dont do the boxing one.....
what i am looking forward to tho is the tausends of idiots who screamed boycott and than gona end up buying it anyway :)

I thought it was pretty good. I liked they way the used the religious iconography to sell the whole point of absolution, or rather the lack of it for a professional assassin.

lacktheknack:

Number-14:
People are going bananas over this? You should see Lady Gaga's Nun outfit.

The one with the nipple tape, or without?

I'm pretty sure with the tape.

GeneralFungi:
Are you trying to imply some sort of inequality simply because females also occupy the lower ranks of the army? There are female commanders, female ship pilots and there were also female Spartans. It's just that you know.. the whole point of Halo is that Chief is the last Spartan, meaning they're dead.

The halo series is a really good example of treating females equally in games without making a big point about it. There are no stereotypes here, just characters.

That's exactly what I'm not implying. I know there's plenty of female officers, bosses and enemies in games. For some reason though, they don't seem to occupy the lower ranks of such organisations. I've only come across few games where women are among the basic units.

Alexnader:

As far as I'm aware most of the outrage isn't from the violence, nor is from the violence against women. It's the way the trailer sexualises said violence against women. You have to admit, slow motion shots of scantily clad women getting the shit kicked out of them does seem a lot like violent erotica.

Now people will read as far into this trailer as they want. Harmless violence or the brutal domination of women presented in a provocative manner? Probably a bit of both really.

Personally the trailer makes me uncomfortable, it just seems unnecessarily fetishistic to me. But I can see why others may have no issue with it or get riled up about it.

I'm aware that the main issue here is the sexualization of the women, and the violence. Nonetheless, I saw plenty a post condemn the violence against women in videogames, which is completely ridiculous, seeing how those lady assassins are professionals, and don't take shit from anybody. My point is that most women are "special" enemies, not your average trooper or soldier. That implies that women can only be effective foes if they're named, or somehow enhanced. There's few games where women fight in the normal ranks; Guild Wars, Mass Effect (to a lesser degree) are the only ones I can name off the top of my head, but there are no doubt more of these.
I might be reading too much into this though.

My main issue with the trailer is that it's so un-hitmanny. "Let's throw in busty nuns in leather wielding massive guns (Both kinds) against sir Agent 47.

It just feels... dumb.

freaper:

GeneralFungi:
Are you trying to imply some sort of inequality simply because females also occupy the lower ranks of the army? There are female commanders, female ship pilots and there were also female Spartans. It's just that you know.. the whole point of Halo is that Chief is the last Spartan, meaning they're dead.

The halo series is a really good example of treating females equally in games without making a big point about it. There are no stereotypes here, just characters.

That's exactly what I'm not implying. I know there's plenty of female officers, bosses and enemies in games. For some reason though, they don't seem to occupy the lower ranks of such organisations. I've only come across few games where women are among the basic units.

I should have answered your question more directly; yes, there are females in the grunt positions. There are not quite as many as males for some reason or another, but they're there.

I'm all for being understanding, but this just seems ridiculous.

night_tiger9:
I care that they are dressed up as nuns, mostly because it offends me and what I believe in. Never saw the video before this, but I was appalled and sickened by it, personally.

Just my two-cents.

I could understand if it was a graphic depiction of an actual nun being raped or murdered, but clearly the women in this video are not nuns and deserve non of the reverence. Given that, why does this video sicken you? I'm asking because I don't understand.

its quite funny when women want equal treatment and yet dont like it when guys fight girls, but yet girls can beat up guys, so confusingly hypocritical

PsychedelicDiamond:

Shameless:
Movies and comic book have always overly sexualized women, I don't see what makes Video Games so different, I mean no one screamed at the makers of the Sucker Punch movie for sexualizing their women. Ana they were REAL women and not ones made by ones and zeroes.

Actually, yes. Quite a few critics (and myself) thought that the oversexualisation of Sucker Punchs maincharacters was undermining the point the movie was trying to make.

Some actually view that depiction of those girls as self-empowering (to the characters). It is possible that women can be sexualized without being victimized.

sumanoskae:
..you could replace them with priests for the exact same effect.

Thanks, I'm still cleaning the Dr. Pepper off my keyboard for laughing at the male assassin priests in patent leather heels image. :P

I just don't see the problem. All this does is give hot girls something else to cosplay as, and they will.

Its a video game that does not try to pass itself off as realistic, unless a John Woo or Tarantino flick is realistic, the nuns fit right in. I saw that trailer and it fit. If the women had been in pantsuits, it would have been out of place. They also weren't sexualized. You got a couple of shots of the costumes as they walked up and then it was all about the fight, its not like they went for mud wrestling shots or jiggling flesh.

I just think people are weirded out because said sexy nuns made no sense in any form of context. They were dressed as sexy nuns for the sake of dressing as sexy nuns. -shrug- It makes even less sense in the context of the game. I played the old games there were no roaving bands of sexy assassins that didn't make sense in the context of their level. (IE The sexy angel assassin in the pent house party mission in blood money and the earlier fake stripper assassin who killed and replaced the real stripper before you came into the room.) They were dressed not to be sexy but as disguises for their mission. If they had put said sexy nuns in some form of church location would there be honestly half as much a problem with the trailer? Could handwave half of the weirdness in the trailer. (sexy outfits are their normal assassin outfits kunoichi style nun outfits as a disguise sorta like 47's normal sneaking shtick) In this the sexualization is just jarring and really pointless. That to me is what makes it generally and offensive attention grab that just fails on all levels as an advertisement.

That said.. I never understood why people find "the sexy women" thing in games to be that off. Most guys at least in my opinion tend to be as idealized as women. (some outfits and examples being over the top to be sure.) but generally all games tend to exaggerate characters looks regardless of gender one way or another. For every chest heavy Ivy you get raining abs Maxis or pretty boy Sigfreids. (I wont comment on ivy's outfits however. Some are just.. irk.. but my point stands in general) They shouldn't not exist any more than they should so long as they fit with the overall aesthetic of the world they inhabit. (As I said above Ivy in general doesn't bother me because for every "sexy" or "cute" female character there tends to be an equally idealized male counterpart. But if say.. the F protagonist in Persona 3 portable was an ivy esc overly sexualized character. That wouldn't fly on any level.) It's part of building fantasies, not many of them stop half way to idealization no matter where they go.

Number-14:

lacktheknack:

Number-14:
People are going bananas over this? You should see Lady Gaga's Nun outfit.

The one with the nipple tape, or without?

I'm pretty sure with the tape.

>nun outfit
>nipple tape

Freaking Lady Gaga, how does she work...

I found it to be gloriously shlocktastic.

Nurb:
If those woman didn't want to get hit they shouldn't be murderous assassins. no one seems to care they were about to kill somebody right?

Blaming the victims? You should be ashamed good sir!

No no no, people aren't offended with the blatent sexualisation and violence. They're offended with the blatent sexualisation and violence in a Hitman game.

And yeah sure previous games had sexualisation but it's the context of the matter. The scene in Contracts (or was it Blood Money...) with the BDSM bodyguards is justified because it was a massive sex party and if you're going to hire bodyguards you want them to look the part to not kill the mood. That's fine. An assassin squad looking like prostitutes JUST COS is what people object to. And they object to it because you're taking a wonderful game and throwing in the type of content specifically designed for the hooting fratboy demographic and that just pisses us off.

Hitman is all about the approach, the levels, the interaction with your environment, waiting and watching for guard routes and seeing what uniforms can get through what areas. THAT IS HITMAN. When the dev comes along showing slow-mo headshot mode and magic vision showing paths so you don't have to hold still for 15 seconds because waiting doesn't bode well with modern "fps kiddies" then the Hitman fanbase feels collectively insulted and outraged. Then of course adding a "trailer" (meant to hype us up for what we're going to get) with gratuitous boobs and face-punching is just twsiting the knife deeper and going "nya nya nya we don't care about you, we want the fps demographic buying our games, nya nya nya, fuck your franchise, boobs and elaborate fight scenes sell!"

RvLeshrac:
-snip- The art doesn't cause the criminal activity.

The art can influence the behavior in some cases.

Unfortunately there is no one size fits all solution to the problem of bad ideas (or art). It's okay to say that some things are unacceptable, as long as we as a people are diligent about the issue.

I generally agree with Jim on this video. This is a conversation we need to keep having, culturally, until trailers like that one become something of a somewhat embarrassing bygone era.

Whats the argument here for or against the trailer? Can't be from the failed assassination because the trailer would of been "cool" if they were guys. Can't be from the S&M look since Hitman has had that before. Can't be from the "chauvinism" since the women weren't exactly being killed doing the laundry, cooking or cleaning a home. Heck they weren't even being kidnapped or babysat like so many women were in the past. They looked like they can more than defend themselves just that the MC was far better.

To me the trailer was okay at best. Mostly because it didn't really show any gameplay so I don't know I can do quick kills like that when fired upon by multiple enemies. -_-

The_Kodu:
Things weirdly to note.
Firstly the actions in the trailer shouldn't be seen as sexist.
A group of women try to kill 47 who responds in kind this truly is equal rights the women are being treated just as though it were a group of men trying to kill him. The only issue is the sexualisation which if you look at it from the name they are called the saints.
Can someone else name an OTT game with characters called "the Saints". At a guess this was some clever dig / reference to Saints row.
Though the rather prominent illuminati esc pyramid with an eye tattoo does bring up some questions.

If the men sent to kill 47 dressed as monks, and stripped off their monk robes to reveal them wearing assless leather chaps (or pleather), vinyl banana hammocks, studded dog collars and/or other sexy fetishwear, you might have a point. As it is, they are dressed that way to titilate men, and presumably the viewer.

Soo, this trailer caused a shitstorm because "violence against women is bad"?
Not because "Violence is bad", no, since if he had slaughtered a team of professional MALE assassins, no-one would have bat an eye, but seeing as they are female, outrage ensues.
So, saying that this is not okay, because the "victims" (bear in mind, the women are the aggressors here) are female, is incredibly sexist, since it indicates that it would be ok for men to get hurt and or killed.
And man are overly sexualized in games as well, with them being depicted as either hulkng brutes or having a perfect physique.
Blaming this trailer for sexism, because strong, capable assassins, are defeated by a superhuman protagonist, and these assassins happen to be female, is incredibly sexist, not the other way round.
I shall buy this game simply because of this trailer, because I approve of it shedding light on the inherent sexism of our society.

Grey Day for Elcia:

Zachary Amaranth:

Falseprophet:

If this were a trailer for a Saints Row game, and played up for camp, I'll bet most viewers would have loved it.

A sexy nun gang would have been way cooler than the Luchadores.

Aw, what. I totally wish that was in SRTT now! You've ruined the game for me </3

There are sexy nuns in Saints Row 3! There's the mission where you kidnap NyteBlade and some of the De Winters gang are dressed as Latex nun hybrids.

Skratt:

Some actually view that depiction of those girls as self-empowering (to the characters). It is possible that women can be sexualized without being victimized.

Sure but i don't really get the point of sexualizing them in the first place. To me it felt like it was suppodes to be fanservice for the male audience... which would go against the movies message.

You know, violence aside it was a very well put together trailer. In fact most of these trailers are pretty damn good. Hollywood better watch it's back.

As for the violence and misogyny, I personally felt the trailer was for shock and nothing more. I didn't 'feel' the misogyny if that makes sense. Also, I kind of want to see more from this game so the trailer worked in that regard.

I do question the strategy of the nuns, though.

anonymity88:

Grey Day for Elcia:

Zachary Amaranth:

A sexy nun gang would have been way cooler than the Luchadores.

Aw, what. I totally wish that was in SRTT now! You've ruined the game for me </3

There are sexy nuns in Saints Row 3! There's the mission where you kidnap NyteBlade and some of the De Winters gang are dressed as Latex nun hybrids.

Ohhh yeeaaah. I forgot about that! I even have that outfit on my character XD

Grey Day for Elcia:

anonymity88:

Grey Day for Elcia:
Aw, what. I totally wish that was in SRTT now! You've ruined the game for me </3

There are sexy nuns in Saints Row 3! There's the mission where you kidnap NyteBlade and some of the De Winters gang are dressed as Latex nun hybrids.

Ohhh yeeaaah. I forgot about that! I even have that outfit on my character XD

Well I'm glad I could revive some love for the game. Haha.

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