Zero Punctuation: Max Payne 3

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Holy crap there's a pug in this episode. Best pug episode yet.

Hey, it's been a while since Yahztee sounded like he was reccomending something!

NuclearShadow:
I think those who dislike Max's character simply do not like a humanized character. Not every hero has to be a macho brute with no emotions but anger. Max was a common man who was deeply emotionally scarred because of the events that took place, he became a addict and shows true humanity in him. He is flawed and that is his appeal.

The game-play criticism is fair enough but I think Yahtzee was just looking for something to complain about beyond that and targeted the character. He also seems to fail to realize that we are suppose to judge Max in our own way. So whether you find Max to be a tragic character that you sympathize with or one that you think is over emotional and looked down upon, the character worked perfectly as intended. It's a shame to see him express his dislike against the stereotypical macho characters in the past and then position himself against the very opposite of that here.

So in closing, either Yahtzee just needed another complaint and attacked the well developed character or Yahtzee really just doesn't understand the arts.

I think Yahtzee is merely critiquing the idea of Max's character, whether or not the depressed noir hero can be utilized for something more than just feeling bad about himself, and as someone who loves the character even I can understand where he's coming from. The tone of the game doesn't exactly change much, and some people will accept that, others may not.

I might be reading too deep, but I think Yahtzee is questioning the idea of Max Payne's flaws becoming monotonous rather than intriguing.

That said, I liked the game's story. It wasn't complex, but it showed the growth of Max Payne without being heavy handed, and that alone is impressive.

canadamus_prime:
Ah, so it's another one of those stories where the main antagonist hires the main protagonist to stop all the bad stuff he's trying to carry out from some whacked out bizarro reason.

Thanks.
You should have used spoiler tags.

Bloodstain:

canadamus_prime:
Ah, so it's another one of those stories where the main antagonist hires the main protagonist to stop all the bad stuff he's trying to carry out from some whacked out bizarro reason.

Thanks.
You should have used spoiler tags.

Huh? What spoiler? I haven't even played the game. I was just guessing based on Yahtzee's description of the plot.

Halo 2 had the player character holding the same weapon in cutscenes as he was in the preceding gameplay.
Just saying.

Another game fallen victim to the "-We must make more 'mature' and 'serious' titles!" bullshit trend we seen far too often the last couple of years. Max Payne 1 & 2 had not only great gameplay but also for its time a fantastic story and atmosphere. A gritty neo-noir mixed with excellent writing, humor and satire, filled with interesting characters and a protagonist you actually care about.

All of this of course ironically makes the older Max Payne games a lot more mature, memorable and not to mention much more enjoyable than the new game ever could be, even though or perhaps because the old games were kinda silly and didn't take itself too serious.

Extra credit brings this issue up perfectly in their latest episode where they also compare the difference between the old and new Max Payne games. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/hard-boiled

What, no reference to Max Power in the ending?
I mean, I know the Max Power way is the wrong way, but at least it's faster.

Re: misunderstanding or disliking the character:

It could be that those of us who criticise the character in this game understand things perfectly well - well enough that it doesn't need to be layered on with a trowel.

Sometimes less really is more.

Boris Goodenough:
And here I thought Requiem: Avenging Angel was the first game to introduce "bullet time".

Holy shit I'm not actually the only person who played it? Too bad I hated it though...

Nice Carmageddon reference at the end, Yahtzee. My favourite name of choice from that series was Mother Trucker from Carma 2 though; that game was a goldmine of insanely stupid (yet funny) names.

Max Payne is an alcoholic who has also been abusing painkillers for years, his wife and child were horribly murderred how can he be any thing but a broken mess?

Game is great if a bit buggy (my game doesnt seem to realise that I have already finished it and wont let me replay the last few levels unless I play it through from the begining, which is a pain in the ass) and yes the unskipable cut scenes are a magor pain in the hole but apart from that its great!

What brilliant timing, I just watched Extra Credits' latest episode on Penny Arcade, where they talk about the inherent flaws of "maturity" in AAA games today and use Max Payne as an example, and today Yahtzee rips into Max Payne! Both videos brought up good points, since now Max sounds unlikable and the world he's in is a shithole full of tossers, and those do not make an exciting game.

JokerboyJordan:
Totally agree with the lack of a likeable character in Max, I honestly didn't understand his appeal in the previous games. He's such an emo wanker.

He wasn't such a whiny little bitch in MP1 and MP2. I think that Rockstar completely missed the point of his character in MP3. Yahtzee has a point when he says it's depressing. All of a sudden Max more miserable than ever and he's drowning in self-pity. And how many years have passed since MP2? It doesn't compute! He's not even remotely interesting in this one. He's quite annoying actually. I don't understand why he's doing any of the stuff in this game. It would make more sense in his current state of mind to just say "fuck it" and go someplace nice instead of feeling sorry for himself in a middle of a gunfight. Gameplay is amazing, story is not. Probably the weakest one Rockstar made thus far.
Maybe it gets better later on. Maybe the ending will make up for it. I don't know. At least I got it for free as a gift. I'd be pissed if I actually payed $60 to listen to him whine the whole game.

Fusioncode9:
I really should try out this game, but it's so hard putting down Diablo 3.

You like bland, repetitive, DRM gear grinds too?!?!

KiKiweaky:
Max Payne is an alcoholic who has also been abusing painkillers for years, his wife and child were horribly murderred how can he be any thing but a broken mess?

There is a thing called "moving on" and he did just that in MP2. Really, from what I've seen and heard so far, the character development of Max Payne has been completely disregarded to make this cash-cow of a game.

CaptainOctopus:
Another game fallen victim to the "-We must make more 'mature' and 'serious' titles!" bullshit trend we seen far too often the last couple of years. Max Payne 1 & 2 had not only great gameplay but also for its time a fantastic story and atmosphere. A gritty neo-noir mixed with excellent writing, humor and satire, filled with interesting characters and a protagonist you actually care about.

All of this of course ironically makes the older Max Payne games a lot more mature, memorable and not to mention much more enjoyable than the new game ever could be, even though or perhaps because the old games were kinda silly and didn't take itself too serious.

Extra credit brings this issue up perfectly in their latest episode where they also compare the difference between the old and new Max Payne games. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/hard-boiled

What are you talking about, at least MP3 suceeds at this compared to other games. It is mature and serious and just as playable as the old ones. The whole tone is a bit different but it`s still Max Payne. Since the focus is more on Max and his inner struggle i care even more about him. The humor is a bit toned down but it`s still there.

Edit: Just watched extra credit. They bring up good points with the difference that all those points don`t cling good with MP3. Compared to other games it doesn`t feel forced in MP3. The whole game works because it all feels like it belongs there.

All in all watching this episode looks more of a personal rant of someone who is disapointed because he didn`t get to play his Remedy remake of MP1-2.

mad825:

KiKiweaky:
Max Payne is an alcoholic who has also been abusing painkillers for years, his wife and child were horribly murderred how can he be any thing but a broken mess?

There is a thing called "moving on" and he did just that in MP2. Really, from what I've seen and heard so far, the character development of Max Payne has been completely disregarded to make this cash-cow of a game.

Moving on? You try 'moving on' after your wife and child have been murdered, despite getting the pre pay thingy on steam I never played max payne 2... woops :|

JokerboyJordan:
Totally agree with the lack of a likeable character in Max, I honestly didn't understand his appeal in the previous games. He's such an emo wanker.

Anyway, that was partly the reason I didn't buy the game, as the interesting setting had also gone, leaving nothing new.

I find he did have a lot of appeal in the serious games. Provided you were a fan of Film Noire, which the series satirized a lot.

He always came across like a mix of Humphrey Bogart meets John Mclane to me. A decent guy caught in a bad place at the right time, always brooding, but the way the games were written (down to the occasional fourth wall breaking where they actually admit they're in a game, before going back and attributing that thought to Max allucinating) always kept the line between the serious tone and the slight tongue in cheek satire which for me was always on the right spot. The story was certainly serious, but it did allow for some levity to shine through, something that Rockstar games always excelled at.

Here, I can see your criticism, but on the original games, the game was too self aware to descend into gears of war level po facedness. Max did whine, but no more than what we'd expect from someone whose wife and child were brutally murdered.

NuclearShadow:
I think those who dislike Max's character simply do not like a humanized character. Not every hero has to be a macho brute with no emotions but anger. Max was a common man who was deeply emotionally scarred because of the events that took place, he became a addict and shows true humanity in him. He is flawed and that is his appeal.

The game-play criticism is fair enough but I think Yahtzee was just looking for something to complain about beyond that and targeted the character. He also seems to fail to realize that we are suppose to judge Max in our own way. So whether you find Max to be a tragic character that you sympathize with or one that you think is over emotional and looked down upon, the character worked perfectly as intended. It's a shame to see him express his dislike against the stereotypical macho characters in the past and then position himself against the very opposite of that here.

So in closing, either Yahtzee just needed another complaint and attacked the well developed character or Yahtzee really just doesn't understand the arts.

No it's more accurate to say that people don't like one dimensional characters like the new Max.

He will be known ad Max Complayne from now on, thank you very much.

Funny how Yahtzee got this wrong again.

No, you don't work for the bad guy.
You work for his brother Rodrigo.

Yes Max has a motivation. He let Fabiana, his boss' wife, get kidnapped. He doesn't want another woman to die because of him, so he sets out to rescue her.

If you want to criticize something, at least try to get it right.

KiKiweaky:

mad825:

KiKiweaky:
Max Payne is an alcoholic who has also been abusing painkillers for years, his wife and child were horribly murderred how can he be any thing but a broken mess?

There is a thing called "moving on" and he did just that in MP2. Really, from what I've seen and heard so far, the character development of Max Payne has been completely disregarded to make this cash-cow of a game.

Moving on? You try 'moving on' after your wife and child have been murdered.

Erm...okay...
...
If you didn't 'move on' you would end-up tying a noose round your neck. At the end of MP1, he slaughtered everyone at the Asair corporation to avenge his family's death and was willing to suffer any punishment from the police but Alfred made him get off scot-free. He was happy, he was happy at the end of MP1 (kind of) and got even happier at the end of MP2. He had accepted for what had happened.

I have to agree that the story was bullshit, especially because the game had such a heavy focus on the story. Through out the entire game, Max would have me believe that there was no light at the end of the tunnel, and yet the game has a really abrupt, fairly happy ending.

Honestly, the entire story was a mess. But Max does have some great lines, even though each one was more depressing than the last. It was a fun shooter, though.

Max Payne 3 was great. Finished the story 2 days ago. Max has some good moments and I feel as if he kinda finally got over all the bad shit in his life at this point. I also liked the ending on the beach. I hope this is the final Max Payne game though because being retired and living on the beach is cliche but a nice ending for a great character.

The story wasn`t a mess. You`re in the position of Max himself, collecting clues and trying to find out what the hell is going on, while you don`t understand portuguese. A few things get explained over the clues, or other characters and there`s still place for guesses. I liked it and i liked the change of mind in the second half of the game.

So God is a mustached cat? Interesting....

JokerboyJordan:
Totally agree with the lack of a likeable character in Max, I honestly didn't understand his appeal in the previous games. He's such an emo wanker.

Anyway, that was partly the reason I didn't buy the game, as the interesting setting had also gone, leaving nothing new.

I actually thought it was a more interesting setting, I have seen a million hardboiled cop in new york/new jersey it is kind of rare to fight though these cool glitzy high rises and poor down trodden favellas(although that seems to be becoming a shooter staple).

Anoni Mus:

MP2 was noir, this isn't, this is normal story with violence and an emo as main character.

Kinda of incorrect as you don't need New York for noir. In fact one of the most notable noir films is Brazil (though is kinda bit sci-fi).

Character wise MP3 is very noir and the noir was first coined to refer to use of lighting in 1920s arthouse films. Also you didn't mention MP1 does that mean you consider MP2 the only noir one of the triology?

canadamus_prime:

Bloodstain:

canadamus_prime:
Ah, so it's another one of those stories where the main antagonist hires the main protagonist to stop all the bad stuff he's trying to carry out from some whacked out bizarro reason.

Thanks.
You should have used spoiler tags.

Huh? What spoiler? I haven't even played the game. I was just guessing based on Yahtzee's description of the plot.

Ah. I thought you just spoilered that your employer is also your secret twist-revealed end boss. I didn't listen to the part when Yahtzee said "Okay, this now may be considered a spoiler", so I thought that "employer is enemy" thing you told was exactly the spoiler Yahtzee was about to say.
If that isn't the case: I apologise.

Bloodstain:

canadamus_prime:

Bloodstain:

Thanks.
You should have used spoiler tags.

Huh? What spoiler? I haven't even played the game. I was just guessing based on Yahtzee's description of the plot.

Ah. I thought you just spoilered that your employer is also your secret twist-revealed end boss. I didn't listen to the part when Yahtzee said "Okay, this now may be considered a spoiler", so I thought that "employer is enemy" thing you told was exactly the spoiler Yahtzee was about to say.
If that isn't the case: I apologise.

Nope, I pretty much just reiterated what Yahtzee said.

canadamus_prime:

Bloodstain:

canadamus_prime:

Huh? What spoiler? I haven't even played the game. I was just guessing based on Yahtzee's description of the plot.

Ah. I thought you just spoilered that your employer is also your secret twist-revealed end boss. I didn't listen to the part when Yahtzee said "Okay, this now may be considered a spoiler", so I thought that "employer is enemy" thing you told was exactly the spoiler Yahtzee was about to say.
If that isn't the case: I apologise.

Nope, I pretty much just reiterated what Yahtzee said.

Hahahahahahahahahaha.

OT: I can't say I found Max annoying. In fact he has a nice bit of character development about mid-way through the game.

Some of his lines are very funny and demonstrate a great deal of self-awareness.

I always thought God was a leopard with a moustache, now Yahtzee has confirmed this I can die happy.

alrekr:

Anoni Mus:

MP2 was noir, this isn't, this is normal story with violence and an emo as main character.

Kinda of incorrect as you don't need New York for noir. In fact one of the most notable noir films is Brazil (though is kinda bit sci-fi).

He never mentioned a location?
So why are you drawing how "You don't need New York for noir", It's not about New York, it's about the setting.If i was in some random city during the night i would have no problems with it, but its about random locations in Brazil switching from rich area to poor area and day to night.

Lighting is the most important thing if you want to create a Film Noir game.
Look at Mafia II, game looks fantastic during the night and adds a lot to the immersion and atmosphere of the setting.
Same thing in GTA IV (Needs a bit of changing in Display settings with colors and brightness) looks incredibly Noir-ish during the night, try it while driving around with Fusion FM/JNR/The Journey on the radio.
General quietness in most games help too.

The game seems really...meh to me. I don't think I'd be picking it up anytime soon.

While I agree with most of Yahtzee's vids, and even when i don't still LOL, as someone who recently bought Max 1&2 on Steam to get myself in the mood for Max 3 i have to say if you remember Max 1 he has a VERY good reason for being messed up, he was literally about 10 seconds too late to save his wife and newborn baby, actually hearing the shots that killed them as he ran up the stairs.

Whether or not you think someone could get over that without years of therapy is one thing, accepting that would seriously mess someone up is quite another. I had forgotten how truly cold and vicious the backstory in Max 1 was until I played it again but knowing that just five minutes would have changed your life HAS to mess you up. I know Waylon Jennings ended up in a mental hospital because he flipped a quarter with Buddy holly for a seat on the plane and the thought that if it would have landed tails he'd be dead drove him bonkers, but to have something as trivial as "if you ran that last stop sign your family wouldn't be dead" would have to seriously mess up your mind.

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