Should The Avengers Be at the Oscars?

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Perhaps the better question should be "Do we need to have award shows at all?"

Why does it matter if one movie is judged better than another. Am I so insecure that I need validation of why I liked a movie?

The Dark Knight was one of the best movies I have seen. Great action, effects, story, characters, acting, I could go on. Not winning an oscar doesn't change all those great points about the movie.

Too many people get caught up on "offical" recognition. Maybe we can all agree that the Avnegers was a great movie, and if someone else doesn't think it was then good for them. It's all opinion anyway.

metaldemonj:
Well, to name one plot hole, the story around the Hulk didn't make any sense. In the middle of the movie he was treated like he was ticking and everyone spoke softly because they were terrified the Hulk would appear, go berserk, and kill everyone. Then, magically, at the end of the movie the Hulk was in control of himself and a valued member of the team.

That's not really a plot-hole either. First off, of course most people are going to tread softly around Banner, he has a reputation for going insane and destroying anything and everything that gets within arms reach of him. Secondly, he didn't 'magically' gain control at the end of the movie. When we first see him, Black Widow outright says that it's been quite a bit of time since his last episode, suggesting he has at least some measure of control. This is further evidenced when Stark pokes him with that little electric thingy, and the most we see is a slightly annoyed "Ow." Throughout the whole movie, the only time he lost control was in the middle of that heated argument when the floor exploded, which, I think you'll agree, is a reasonable time to lose your composure.

Silverspetz:

Ignoring my earlier rebuttal are we? Oh well, I guess I can debunk these complaints just as easily.

1) I already covered this, it has less to do with hubris and more to do with the fact that Loki's illusion power isn't so convenient that he can just whip one up in a millisecond. The Hulk just started throwing him around like a rag-doll before he could do anything (his little rant that got interrupted was probably an attempt at buying time). After that he was too bruised to even get up so why is it a plot-hole that he didn't just walk away?

2) And if you aren't great diplomats and capable of such bargaining? Fury did try to calm him down with words and not guns. As I recall they only pulled guns on him when it looked like he was already at the breaking point. Again, that is pretty much all they CAN do at that point and hope it will do some good.

3) It kinda does, I already explained it to you that being always angry means that he is always close to becoming the Hulk. The Hulk is always a part of him and that is why he can be part of the Hulk too. And he doesn't control the Hulk as much as he just "aims" him. He still rage-smashes everything he fights, just now he is enough Banner to keep away from his allies (most of the time, he might still sucker-punch them apparently).

4) Already explained this too. Widow and Hawkeye are the only ones skilled enough with conventional weapons to do any good against the enemies with them. Normal shield agents can't shoot aliens moving at high speed on a hover-scooter out of the sky with a handgun or bow. Hawkeye can. They also can't battle their way through hordes of them without being overrun after taking down at most 2 or 3 soldiers, but Widow can. There is also that little problem of the Hellicarrier being understaffed after the attack on it. They probably couldn't have sent out much help anyways.

Forgive me, there's kind of been a lot of rebuttals but none of them have been very satisfactory. With yours:

1: They've never fully defined his powers. (He can take control of people, but only sort of cause they can still build a fail-safe. He can make a clone, but who knows how long he needs to do that. He can shoot lasers, maybe.) But, judging from the earlier encounter with Thor and Coulson while he was escaping, it looks like he can make that duplicate without being seen and fairly quickly. Either that or he knew Thor AND Coulson were both coming, but then that would be another undefined power, in which case it's not a plot hole so much as another example of the lazy comic book writing: "his powers are defined by whatever the plot calls for!"

2: Once again, that's bullshit. "It's the only thing we CAN do!" Doing something once is called experimentation; doing the same thing twice and expecting different results is idiocy; and doing the same thing over and over and over again is fucking delusional bordering on madness. This is the whole shared continuity universe Marvel is going for, so not only do we have Bruce's word that swallowing a fucking bullet won't kill him, but we've also seen in the previous movie that even fucking tank shells can't kill him. It's not even about bargaining at that point, it's about making sure the environment around the guy is as stress-free as possible, and it's made much more stressful by having lots of people with guns pointing said guns at him. There's no logic behind it. It's just done because it looks cooler than Fury giving Banner a stress ball and a massage while soothing music plays over the loudspeaker.

3: Except he doesn't. He actively saves Iron Man. He just stands around watching while everyone hopes Stark revives, (or he hits him, I can't remember, in which case he actively works to save him twice). And he does that pose with the rest of the group when Loki wakes up, actively NOT rage-smashing everyone. Always being angry doesn't make you better at controlling your anger. Just ask anyone with anger management issues. They're set off at the drop of a hat, and they have to actively fight that urge to give in. But when they do give in, it doesn't make them anymore "in control" of their actions.

4: This one has been the most poorly explained of all of them (although it didn't help everyone assumed I meant they should've sent out those experimental weapons). You don't need soldiers to repair a damaged ship. You need technicians and skilled workers, of which aircraft carriers have more than enough of on support staff. A carrier is essentially a city, I promise, there's no shortage of either soldiers or workers.
As for the military prowess of Widow and Hawkeye as compared to the other soldiers, hey, they may be the very best of the best. But supposedly elite soldiers are still more than enough to take on aliens that apparently have no problem rushing headfirst at enemies rather than any sort of tactical advance. For fuck's sake, I don't even recall Black Widow ever taking cover, and she doesn't even have powers. Hell, even Captain America's greatest asset is a small circle that stops everything. His powers of being "super-strong" amount up to precisely dick if an alien with any sort of marksmanship decides to aim outside that tiny circle with his laser.
You can't seriously tell me that one woman with two pistols (they're not even very big pistols) can hold back an army of aliens, but a squad of soldiers with machine guns, assault rifles, grenades, rockets, etc. can't do jackshit against that same army of aliens. You know what's better than a guy who's really really really good with a bow? About twenty guys who are only really good with weapons that can spit rounds at supersonic speeds (that's most guns) and sometimes from a mile away (that's sniper rifles, which is a type of gun).

Jeff Gibson:

metaldemonj:
Well, to name one plot hole, the story around the Hulk didn't make any sense. In the middle of the movie he was treated like he was ticking and everyone spoke softly because they were terrified the Hulk would appear, go berserk, and kill everyone. Then, magically, at the end of the movie the Hulk was in control of himself and a valued member of the team.

That's not really a plot-hole either. First off, of course most people are going to tread softly around Banner, he has a reputation for going insane and destroying anything and everything that gets within arms reach of him. Secondly, he didn't 'magically' gain control at the end of the movie. When we first see him, Black Widow outright says that it's been quite a bit of time since his last episode, suggesting he has at least some measure of control. This is further evidenced when Stark pokes him with that little electric thingy, and the most we see is a slightly annoyed "Ow." Throughout the whole movie, the only time he lost control was in the middle of that heated argument when the floor exploded, which, I think you'll agree, is a reasonable time to lose your composure.

He's talking about the Hulk NOT crushing everything and everyone (civilians, other superheroes, etc.) at the very end. Like how the Hulk actually goes out of his way to save some of the others. And even stands there side-by-side, not killing, the others when Loki wakes up. You're just giving us examples of him not turning into the Hulk. He has at least some measure of control over turning into the Hulk yes, but there's no explanation of how he controls his alter-ego aside from the whole "meditation" thing at the end of Incredible Hulk.

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:

Silverspetz:

See, this is exactly the kind of attitude that some of us thinks need to change. The one that can't see past the film and that it is "just entertaining" and instead look at what an achievement this "popcorn movie" really is. How much actual effort went into it and how well it succeeded on every level that it was trying to accomplish something on, not to mention being a landmark in film history for trying and succeeding in adapting comic-book style continuity. If you can pull a "toll of war" message out of Return of the King, then surely we can all pull a message about "traditional one-man heroism in today's day and age" out of The Avengers.

Not saying it should get a spot mind you (lots of movies coming out before the Oscars, though even with the ones you mentioned there will be room for more), but snubbing it off because it is "a popcorn flick" is just narrowing your view and holding the awards back from seeing the big picture in my book.

Sorry, but where in my post did I complain about popcorn movies being shit?

I enjoy popcorn movies. But I enjoy them for the shallow, mindless entertainment they are. And shallow, mindless films do not Best Picture Oscars deserve.

The "one man heroism" message you're talking about in The Avengers is the exact same 'message' that every blockbuster of the last decade has been yammering on about. It's a generic message, delivered in a fun way.

Again, there is nothing wrong with enjoying popcorn entertainment. But taking a well-done yet ultimately generic superhero movie, and saying it should be put on the pedestal along side the works of Ken Loach and Wes Anderson is just ignorant. Every year, films are made that are intelligent, thought-provoking, and rich in thematic content. These sorts of films are what are supposed to be recognised as 'Best Picture' types, not films that simply make a billion dollars and provide a bit of spectacle.

If you enjoyed the Avengers, good for you. That doesn't mean it's a film worthy of being put alongside The Hurt Locker, Schindler's List or Million Dollar Baby.

I think you are missing the point. I didn't say you called popcorn movies shit. I'm saying it is narrow-minded to brush popcorn movies off as "shallow" solely based on what they are, and not looking past what's on the screen. Awards exist to merit achievements, and a movie doesn't need to be complex or thought provoking to be an achievement. It doesn't need those things to be a good or even fantastic movie. The Avengers is a well-acted, well-scripted and VERY well-directed film. But people like the academy folks ignore that because "it's a popcorn flick". Even if those things aren't enough to win an Oscar or even get nominated for one when the time comes, it still deserves recognition and not just be brushed aside as unimportant because it happened in a movie meant to be just "dumb fun".

Considering the effort the Academy has made to make itself irrelevant to the eyes of most film-goers, I have to ask, "Why is this important?"
The Avengers is awesome. The people who put effort into making this film already got their reward by the turnouts at the box office. That is all a person should really require. Anymore these days, that gold statue means nothing. I do hope Joss Whedon gets recognition by his peers for this, but it doesn't have to be through the Academy.

Screw the Oscars. The Avengers already stands higher than any fluff they might consider to be "relevant."

irishda:
Forgive me, there's kind of been a lot of rebuttals but none of them have been very satisfactory. With yours:

1: They've never fully defined his powers. (He can take control of people, but only sort of cause they can still build a fail-safe. He can make a clone, but who knows how long he needs to do that. He can shoot lasers, maybe.) But, judging from the earlier encounter with Thor and Coulson while he was escaping, it looks like he can make that duplicate without being seen and fairly quickly. Either that or he knew Thor AND Coulson were both coming, but then that would be another undefined power, in which case it's not a plot hole so much as another example of the lazy comic book writing: "his powers are defined by whatever the plot calls for!"

2: Once again, that's bullshit. "It's the only thing we CAN do!" Doing something once is called experimentation; doing the same thing twice and expecting different results is idiocy; and doing the same thing over and over and over again is fucking delusional bordering on madness. This is the whole shared continuity universe Marvel is going for, so not only do we have Bruce's word that swallowing a fucking bullet won't kill him, but we've also seen in the previous movie that even fucking tank shells can't kill him. It's not even about bargaining at that point, it's about making sure the environment around the guy is as stress-free as possible, and it's made much more stressful by having lots of people with guns pointing said guns at him. There's no logic behind it. It's just done because it looks cooler than Fury giving Banner a stress ball and a massage while soothing music plays over the loudspeaker.

3: Except he doesn't. He actively saves Iron Man. He just stands around watching while everyone hopes Stark revives, (or he hits him, I can't remember, in which case he actively works to save him twice). And he does that pose with the rest of the group when Loki wakes up, actively NOT rage-smashing everyone. Always being angry doesn't make you better at controlling your anger. Just ask anyone with anger management issues. They're set off at the drop of a hat, and they have to actively fight that urge to give in. But when they do give in, it doesn't make them anymore "in control" of their actions.

4: This one has been the most poorly explained of all of them (although it didn't help everyone assumed I meant they should've sent out those experimental weapons). You don't need soldiers to repair a damaged ship. You need technicians and skilled workers, of which aircraft carriers have more than enough of on support staff. A carrier is essentially a city, I promise, there's no shortage of either soldiers or workers.
As for the military prowess of Widow and Hawkeye as compared to the other soldiers, hey, they may be the very best of the best. But supposedly elite soldiers are still more than enough to take on aliens that apparently have no problem rushing headfirst at enemies rather than any sort of tactical advance. For fuck's sake, I don't even recall Black Widow ever taking cover, and she doesn't even have powers. Hell, even Captain America's greatest asset is a small circle that stops everything. His powers of being "super-strong" amount up to precisely dick if an alien with any sort of marksmanship decides to aim outside that tiny circle with his laser.
You can't seriously tell me that one woman with two pistols (they're not even very big pistols) can hold back an army of aliens, but a squad of soldiers with machine guns, assault rifles, grenades, rockets, etc. can't do jackshit against that same army of aliens. You know what's better than a guy who's really really really good with a bow? About twenty guys who are only really good with weapons that can spit rounds at supersonic speeds (that's most guns) and sometimes from a mile away (that's sniper rifles, which is a type of gun).

1: He can brainwash people so that they believe following him is the right thing, but they will still act like themselves in any other respects. Hence why Selvig made a fail-safe because when you are building a very dangerous machine, having a fail-safe is pretty smart. You can see this in how the brainwashed characters talk about how they feel. They are not mindless zombies that blindly obey they have just been completely convinced that they are doing the right thing by following Loki. And he may be able to do make a clone fairly fast but he was still given more time with Coulsson than with Hulk, and Coulsson didn't smash him through a window at high speed first either.

2: So they are just going to take Banners word that shooting him won't do anything to the Hulk and give up? Like I said they apparently only pulled guns on Banner when they believed he was already about to turn (at which point calming him down won't help much) or against the hulk at which point they are panicked and will probably shoot to distract him if nothing else. I don't really recall anyone trying to use a gun on the Hulk actually. Widow and the agents just ran away and Thor tried to subdue him with strength (and was semi-successful at it). There was also that guy in the helicopter-thingy but he at least used massive miniguns.

3: I still wouldn't call that "being in control" seeing how he still has minimal intelligence and massive rage. His "control" only extends so far that he can go from "crush everything" to "crush those guys, help these guys".

People with anger-management issues are people who can be set off by anything. That is not what Banner has. His problem is that when he DOES get angry he gets REALLY freaking angry and dangerous. In cases like that, being angry in a subdued way all the time helps him to not let other things bother him as much and push him over the edge.

4: And again, what makes you think they HAVE that many soldiers to send out after they just got their asses handed to them by Loki's followers? Even if they still have tons of technicians to spare they can't send those guys out to fight alien hordes now can they?

Yes, I can tell you that a woman with handguns can do that but a dozen agents can't. You know why? Because while the soldiers will fire their machine-guns straight into enemy lines only to have the bullets bounce off their armor 9 times out of 10 (rockets and grenades would work, but they can't fire those constantly), the Widow will fire precision shots with her small handguns that ALWAYS hit their target all while jumping around, dodging (because some cover is gonna work sooooo well against weapons that can cassulay blow cars sky-high) and using takedowns on the aliens in order to take their own weapons and use them against their owners.

Meanwhile, Hawkeye is good enough with a bow to fire an arrow across three blocks and have it twist and bend around obstacles before finally nailing the target moving at high speed in the eye and make it crash into three other enemy vehicles. Those dozen guys with rifles and their supersonic bullets can't even begin to compare.

Do you get it yet? Widow and Hawkeye are there because their skill at handling conventional weapons make them one-man/woman armies compared to regular soldiers. You seem to think that they are only slightly better than top-class and that a few armed men will be just as good or even better than they are.

Oh, and Cap did take a plasma blast to the gut and got up again. He doesn't just stand like a statue with his shield and hope that the enemies won't get the idea to aim outside of the bullseye.

TKretts3:

As for my personal Oscar hopes? Les Miserables. :)

It's directed by the dude who directed King's Speech, is it not? If so, will probably get a lot of nominations, as bad as that sounds (but the film does look pretty damn good!).

Avengers should get best screenplay. Say what you want about the film, but you can't deny the script was superb, pure Joss Whedon.

Plus, it was the love child of 4 great franchises. Surely the success of it MEANS something?

V TheSystem V:

TKretts3:

As for my personal Oscar hopes? Les Miserables. :)

It's directed by the dude who directed King's Speech, is it not? If so, will probably get a lot of nominations, as bad as that sounds (but the film does look pretty damn good!).

Avengers should get best screenplay. Say what you want about the film, but you can't deny the script was superb, pure Joss Whedon.

Plus, it was the love child of 4 great franchises. Surely the success of it MEANS something?

Since it is the combination of those different franchises, would it fall under Best Original Screenplay, or Best Adapted Screenplay? Also, I do think it deserves recognition in the special effects department, at least from the current lineup of movies from this year.

Silverspetz:

1: He can brainwash people so that they believe following him is the right thing, but they will still act like themselves in any other respects. Hence why Selvig made a fail-safe because when you are building a very dangerous machine, having a fail-safe is pretty smart. You can see this in how the brainwashed characters talk about how they feel. They are not mindless zombies that blindly obey they have just been completely convinced that they are doing the right thing by following Loki. And he may be able to do make a clone fairly fast but he was still given more time with Coulsson than with Hulk, and Coulsson didn't smash him through a window at high speed first either.

I don't think anyone really talked that much under the effects that I can recall. Hawkeye never said much, and Selvig only said like a sentence or two. Again, they're both just hazily defined powers with the purpose of the writers being able to do with them whatever the plot calls for.

2: So they are just going to take Banners word that shooting him won't do anything to the Hulk and give up? Like I said they apparently only pulled guns on Banner when they believed he was already about to turn (at which point calming him down won't help much) or against the hulk at which point they are panicked and will probably shoot to distract him if nothing else. I don't really recall anyone trying to use a gun on the Hulk actually.

They pulled a gun on him every time his voice went above a quiet tone. He bangs his hands on the table, and Widow freaks right the fuck out with a gun in his face. Thank god he was just proving a point to her. So yeah, I definitely thought it was ridiculous that they would automatically jump to that point. And if no one TRIES to use a gun on him, then what was the point of even threatening to use them? You can't intimidate the Hulk. All they're doing is escalating the tension, and since the Hulk is an unstoppable killing machine, escalating the tension is the LAST thing you want to do, regardless of how close he is to turning.

3: I still wouldn't call that "being in control" seeing how he still has minimal intelligence and massive rage. His "control" only extends so far that he can go from "crush everything" to "crush those guys, help these guys".

It's not "being cool as ice" control, but being able to identify friend from foe definitely says control. Intelligence is not a requisite for control, and, if his massive rage is easily directed or held in check, then it minimizes his characterization as a monster and the necessity for his isolation.

4: And again, what makes you think they HAVE that many soldiers to send out after they just got their asses handed to them by Loki's followers? Even if they still have tons of technicians to spare they can't send those guys out to fight alien hordes now can they?

Yes, I can tell you that a woman with handguns can do that but a dozen agents can't. You know why? Because while the soldiers will fire their machine-guns straight into enemy lines only to have the bullets bounce off their armor 9 times out of 10 (rockets and grenades would work, but they can't fire those constantly), the Widow will fire precision shots with her small handguns that ALWAYS hit their target all while jumping around, dodging (because some cover is gonna work sooooo well against weapons that can cassulay blow cars sky-high) and using takedowns on the aliens in order to take their own weapons and use them against their owners.

Meanwhile, Hawkeye is good enough with a bow to fire an arrow across three blocks and have it twist and bend around obstacles before finally nailing the target moving at high speed in the eye and make it crash into three other enemy vehicles. Those dozen guys with rifles and their supersonic bullets can't even begin to compare.

Do you get it yet? Widow and Hawkeye are there because their skill at handling conventional weapons make them one-man/woman armies compared to regular soldiers. You seem to think that they are only slightly better than top-class and that a few armed men will be just as good or even better than they are.

Oh, and Cap did take a plasma blast to the gut and got up again. He doesn't just stand like a statue with his shield and hope that the enemies won't get the idea to aim outside of the bullseye.

An aircraft carrier typically has a complement of 5000 troops on board. That includes all support personnel, soldiers, pilots, officers, etc. Now lets say just 1/10th of that number is dedicated solely to soldiers. That's 500 troops. Loki's attack was like 20 guys, and it was only in one section. So let's be generous, and say Hawkeye killed a ton of people that we didn't see and there's only 200 people left. That is still a company worth of soldiers.

Now, as for their effectiveness, I'm very glad that Hawkeye and Black Widow have gone far and beyond normal people's abilities because of the ability to defy physics and accurately put small caliber rounds into alien physiology while jumping around. And I missed the part in Captain America where super strength translates to plasma no longer melts all of your tissues, or how being super agile means your arm won't get ripped off at the socket if you leap onto a super fast hover bike by planting your knife into an alien's back.

As for their high-caliber rounds bouncing harmlessly off armor, apparently small-caliber pistol rounds work just as effectively when fired into non-vital areas of the aliens' anatomy (I'm assuming they armored their vital areas), so there's no reason an Mk 48 can't just spit out a wall of bullets and take at least two or three down.

Face it dude, movies have plot holes. Every movie has plot holes. And comic book movies especially have plot holes because the source material likes toeing the line between what looks cool and the downright ridiculous. It doesn't mean this movie is any less fun to watch; and it doesn't mean that this movie is more perfect than anything else that came before it. Get over it.

TKretts3:

V TheSystem V:

TKretts3:

As for my personal Oscar hopes? Les Miserables. :)

It's directed by the dude who directed King's Speech, is it not? If so, will probably get a lot of nominations, as bad as that sounds (but the film does look pretty damn good!).

Avengers should get best screenplay. Say what you want about the film, but you can't deny the script was superb, pure Joss Whedon.

Plus, it was the love child of 4 great franchises. Surely the success of it MEANS something?

Since it is the combination of those different franchises, would it fall under Best Original Screenplay, or Best Adapted Screenplay? Also, I do think it deserves recognition in the special effects department, at least from the current lineup of movies from this year.

It'd be Original Screenplay, since it's an amalgamation of a lot of different stories and not a lift from a single source.

Original screenplay's probably gonna go to Detachment or Moonrise Kingdom, maybe Prometheus. But the Academy loves the dramatic and the quirky (hipster-quirky) when it comes to screenplays. They don't really care about one-liners and quips. Hell, I think the only action movie that's ever even won was Pulp Fiction, and that's not even action.

Adapted screenplay's definitely going to either Les Miserables or The Great Gatsby whether or not they deserve. The academy eats that classic shit up.

irishda:

Silverspetz:

1: He can brainwash people so that they believe following him is the right thing, but they will still act like themselves in any other respects. Hence why Selvig made a fail-safe because when you are building a very dangerous machine, having a fail-safe is pretty smart. You can see this in how the brainwashed characters talk about how they feel. They are not mindless zombies that blindly obey they have just been completely convinced that they are doing the right thing by following Loki. And he may be able to do make a clone fairly fast but he was still given more time with Coulsson than with Hulk, and Coulsson didn't smash him through a window at high speed first either.

I don't think anyone really talked that much under the effects that I can recall. Hawkeye never said much, and Selvig only said like a sentence or two. Again, they're both just hazily defined powers with the purpose of the writers being able to do with them whatever the plot calls for.

2: So they are just going to take Banners word that shooting him won't do anything to the Hulk and give up? Like I said they apparently only pulled guns on Banner when they believed he was already about to turn (at which point calming him down won't help much) or against the hulk at which point they are panicked and will probably shoot to distract him if nothing else. I don't really recall anyone trying to use a gun on the Hulk actually.

They pulled a gun on him every time his voice went above a quiet tone. He bangs his hands on the table, and Widow freaks right the fuck out with a gun in his face. Thank god he was just proving a point to her. So yeah, I definitely thought it was ridiculous that they would automatically jump to that point. And if no one TRIES to use a gun on him, then what was the point of even threatening to use them? You can't intimidate the Hulk. All they're doing is escalating the tension, and since the Hulk is an unstoppable killing machine, escalating the tension is the LAST thing you want to do, regardless of how close he is to turning.

3: I still wouldn't call that "being in control" seeing how he still has minimal intelligence and massive rage. His "control" only extends so far that he can go from "crush everything" to "crush those guys, help these guys".

It's not "being cool as ice" control, but being able to identify friend from foe definitely says control. Intelligence is not a requisite for control, and, if his massive rage is easily directed or held in check, then it minimizes his characterization as a monster and the necessity for his isolation.

4: And again, what makes you think they HAVE that many soldiers to send out after they just got their asses handed to them by Loki's followers? Even if they still have tons of technicians to spare they can't send those guys out to fight alien hordes now can they?

Yes, I can tell you that a woman with handguns can do that but a dozen agents can't. You know why? Because while the soldiers will fire their machine-guns straight into enemy lines only to have the bullets bounce off their armor 9 times out of 10 (rockets and grenades would work, but they can't fire those constantly), the Widow will fire precision shots with her small handguns that ALWAYS hit their target all while jumping around, dodging (because some cover is gonna work sooooo well against weapons that can cassulay blow cars sky-high) and using takedowns on the aliens in order to take their own weapons and use them against their owners.

Meanwhile, Hawkeye is good enough with a bow to fire an arrow across three blocks and have it twist and bend around obstacles before finally nailing the target moving at high speed in the eye and make it crash into three other enemy vehicles. Those dozen guys with rifles and their supersonic bullets can't even begin to compare.

Do you get it yet? Widow and Hawkeye are there because their skill at handling conventional weapons make them one-man/woman armies compared to regular soldiers. You seem to think that they are only slightly better than top-class and that a few armed men will be just as good or even better than they are.

Oh, and Cap did take a plasma blast to the gut and got up again. He doesn't just stand like a statue with his shield and hope that the enemies won't get the idea to aim outside of the bullseye.

An aircraft carrier typically has a complement of 5000 troops on board. That includes all support personnel, soldiers, pilots, officers, etc. Now lets say just 1/10th of that number is dedicated solely to soldiers. That's 500 troops. Loki's attack was like 20 guys, and it was only in one section. So let's be generous, and say Hawkeye killed a ton of people that we didn't see and there's only 200 people left. That is still a company worth of soldiers.

Now, as for their effectiveness, I'm very glad that Hawkeye and Black Widow have gone far and beyond normal people's abilities because of the ability to defy physics and accurately put small caliber rounds into alien physiology while jumping around. And I missed the part in Captain America where super strength translates to plasma no longer melts all of your tissues, or how being super agile means your arm won't get ripped off at the socket if you leap onto a super fast hover bike by planting your knife into an alien's back.

As for their high-caliber rounds bouncing harmlessly off armor, apparently small-caliber pistol rounds work just as effectively when fired into non-vital areas of the aliens' anatomy (I'm assuming they armored their vital areas), so there's no reason an Mk 48 can't just spit out a wall of bullets and take at least two or three down.

Face it dude, movies have plot holes. Every movie has plot holes. And comic book movies especially have plot holes because the source material likes toeing the line between what looks cool and the downright ridiculous. It doesn't mean this movie is any less fun to watch; and it doesn't mean that this movie is more perfect than anything else that came before it. Get over it.

1: You can still get a lot from those few lines. Selvig at one points walks up to Loki and thanks him for "showing him the truth", indicating that he is still himself but he has been brainwashed the same way a sect member might be. That is, into believing their "master's" cause is just and worth supporting. They are loosely defined but they never contradict themselves at any point so it can't really be called bad or even lazy writing since they never really use this looseness to change the rules at any point. I repeat, Selvig setting up a fail-safe was simply a smart thing to do from a construction standpoint, regardless of which side he was working for.

2: Honestly, that time with the Widow is the only time I can clearly remember anyone pulling a gun on Banner (not the Hulk). And she did that because he was slamming the table and screaming his lungs out, which is a pretty strong indicator that he has already lost it. Other than that I recall Fury trying to reason with Banner and explaining why they had a cage for the Hulk when he was raising his voice. And maybe putting his hand on the holster when Banner picked up the staff.

3: So it is just partial control then. Still doesn't really negate the point that his desensitization to anger helps help him control it. And as he displayed on the Helicarrier, he can still be quite dangerous and loose control if something extreme happens that sets him off. It is apparently only when he lets the Hulk out willingly that he can retain some control. Makes sense to me at least.

4: Aren't you assuming a bit much with how many soldiers there "should" have been on the carrier? I mean, we only ever saw a few dozen, maybe even a hundred soldiers at any time. And if there could have been more of them that we didn't see. Then the same could be said for Loki's group. And as I recall Shield's job at this point was mainly to support the Avengers because Loki's stunt at their base had left them weakened, so it makes sense that they wouldn't have had that many soldiers to begin with. And if they were only 20 guys against 500 then the battle would have been over much ssoner, with or without hawkeye.

Yes, Hawkeye and Widow are ridiculously skilled. That is why they are members of a superhero team for Christ's sake, it doesn't make it a plothole. Small calibers only work because Hawkeye and Widow are skilled enough to place them into the weakspots that are ridiculously difficult to hit, like the eyes and joints.

CapA's powers isn't just that he is "super strong". He is a perfect physical specimen of the human species. His strength, speed, agility and durability have all been raised to the maximum for the human body's potential and then some. And according to one scene in his own movie, he also has a healing factor. His suit probably had something to do with it too.

Face it, your plot-holes are really just nitpicks that you blow out of proportion.

Silverspetz:

Face it, your plot-holes are really just nitpicks that you blow out of proportion.

And your defenses are weird leaps of logic. "Desensitization to anger"? That's not a thing. You can't become desensitized to an emotion, because an emotion is a response. Either you have the response or you don't. His body is perfection doesn't stop fucking plasma. The really buff guys at the gym still take a bullet the same as the rest of us, and when that bullet is a superheated state of matter that's the temperature of the sun, he's got a lot of muscles doesn't quite cut it. We don't even see the healing factor in action. And other people's exceptional skills don't diminish the abilities of others. Even if Hawkeye and Widow are so awesome they can shit bullets while dodging lasers with superhuman precision, that doesn't mean any soldiers with at least some measure of competency can't be utilized at all.

Widow and Hawkeye's inclusion forced the writers to grant them powers that crossed the border to absurdity a long time ago (No look arrow shot FTW!). Plus, now there's no real threat of danger to the actual superheroes, because after all, if a girl with two pistols and a guy with a bow can fight off the aliens (without even a scratch too I might add), then what are the super-soldier, the flying one-man army, the demi-god, and the mean, green wrecking machine worried about? That in itself isn't necessarily a plot hole, just bad writing. But combined with the exclusion of everyone else with a weapon, and there's no reference for how badass these aliens are supposed to be. Either they're superawesome warriors that have torn up much more technologically advanced societies, in which case Hawkeye and Widow really are absurd pinnacles of human martial prowess that make Captain America look lazy for needing "super-steroids", or the chitauri are just paper tigers that have pretty much won through overwhelming force, in which case the government and Fury are grossly incompetent for not bringing more troops to bear to protect the people.

The movie made a lot of choices based on what looked cool, because most of the people that go to watch action movies, especially comic book action movies, go to see something that looks cool. I'm sorry dude, but The Avengers is meant to look cool, and it mostly succeeds (seriously fuck that no-look shot), not follow logic.

irishda:

Silverspetz:

Face it, your plot-holes are really just nitpicks that you blow out of proportion.

And your defenses are weird leaps of logic. "Desensitization to anger"? That's not a thing. You can't become desensitized to an emotion, because an emotion is a response. Either you have the response or you don't. His body is perfection doesn't stop fucking plasma. The really buff guys at the gym still take a bullet the same as the rest of us, and when that bullet is a superheated state of matter that's the temperature of the sun, he's got a lot of muscles doesn't quite cut it. We don't even see the healing factor in action. And other people's exceptional skills don't diminish the abilities of others. Even if Hawkeye and Widow are so awesome they can shit bullets while dodging lasers with superhuman precision, that doesn't mean any soldiers with at least some measure of competency can't be utilized at all.

Widow and Hawkeye's inclusion forced the writers to grant them powers that crossed the border to absurdity a long time ago (No look arrow shot FTW!). Plus, now there's no real threat of danger to the actual superheroes, because after all, if a girl with two pistols and a guy with a bow can fight off the aliens (without even a scratch too I might add), then what are the super-soldier, the flying one-man army, the demi-god, and the mean, green wrecking machine worried about? That in itself isn't necessarily a plot hole, just bad writing. But combined with the exclusion of everyone else with a weapon, and there's no reference for how badass these aliens are supposed to be. Either they're superawesome warriors that have torn up much more technologically advanced societies, in which case Hawkeye and Widow really are absurd pinnacles of human martial prowess that make Captain America look lazy for needing "super-steroids", or the chitauri are just paper tigers that have pretty much won through overwhelming force, in which case the government and Fury are grossly incompetent for not bringing more troops to bear to protect the people.

The movie made a lot of choices based on what looked cool, because most of the people that go to watch action movies, especially comic book action movies, go to see something that looks cool. I'm sorry dude, but The Avengers is meant to look cool, and it mostly succeeds (seriously fuck that no-look shot), not follow logic.

Sorry for the late reply, I have been busy moving.

Where are the leaps in logic? Because my line of thinking goes like this:

1: The Hulk comes out when Banners blood-pressure goes above a certain level.
2: Your blood-pressure goes up rapidly if you are suddenly exposed to a lot of stress or emotional turmoil.
(1+2 = Banner needs to avoid things like serious stress or extreme emotions)
3: You CAN be angry and not let it raise your BP (Heck, I'm kinda pissed at you right now for being so stubborn about this, but I'm not turning red with rage or flailing my arms around because of it). This is called subdued anger.
4: If you are constantly a little bit angry, your body gets used to the elevated BP and has an easier time not letting it get any higher (it is not particularly healthy to always have a slightly more elevated BP mind you). This is where the desensitization comes in. I suppose it wasn't correct of me to say that he is desensitized to ANGER per-se but rather that he has become desensitized to things that MAKE him angry or stressed. That is a case of semantics however and not something to get hung up on.

Yes, their skills are absurd, no shit Sherlock they are super heroes. And I would like to think that just because those guys can take out a great number of footsoldiers by themselves, it doesn't lessen the threat the other heroes feel from the giant dragon-robots, the motherships, not to mention the imminent reinforcements numbering in the thousands that are about to pass through the portal.

Cap isn't lazy just because he needs something to overcome the MASSIVE handicaps he was born with. He has plenty of other skills like leadership and strategizing, while Widow and Hawkeye have more combat skills that most people simply aren't talented enough to gain through training. This is a case of how the writers give the characters DIFFERENT skill sets and abilities to make them more diverse. I would consider that GOOD writing.

I will give you that we lack a frame of reference for how strong the enemies are, but we can at least tell that they have superior technology and firepower than we do. Plus their numbers alone is a pretty intimidating factor, especially since they could just appear on Earth in a highly populated area. I'm curious as to how you would expect the military to mobilize that fast when they just found out minutes ago where the portal was going to open. One advantage of a small team is that it is quicker to move and get into action.

The Avengers IS made to look cool, but it also makes sense inside its own set of logic which applies to the universe that the writers have created. And that is really all that matters for a movie.

Silverspetz:

1: The Hulk comes out when Banners blood-pressure goes above a certain level.
2: Your blood-pressure goes up rapidly if you are suddenly exposed to a lot of stress or emotional turmoil.
(1+2 = Banner needs to avoid things like serious stress or extreme emotions)
3: You CAN be angry and not let it raise your BP (Heck, I'm kinda pissed at you right now for being so stubborn about this, but I'm not turning red with rage or flailing my arms around because of it). This is called subdued anger.
4: If you are constantly a little bit angry, your body gets used to the elevated BP and has an easier time not letting it get any higher (it is not particularly healthy to always have a slightly more elevated BP mind you). This is where the desensitization comes in. I suppose it wasn't correct of me to say that he is desensitized to ANGER per-se but rather that he has become desensitized to things that MAKE him angry or stressed. That is a case of semantics however and not something to get hung up on.

Because you're changing identifiers to suit the logic. It's an exercise in hyperbole that's now so colored our language, it's impossible to escape when talking about emotions. But emotions have physiological symptoms that are readily identifiable. One of the ones for anger is increased BP as the heart rate accelerates in preparation for flight or fight. If his heart rate isn't increased (or yours for that matter) than neither of you are actually angry. You're just saying you are to get a point across. You might be annoyed or perhaps frustrated. But as I said, it's not such a cool turn-of-phrase if Bruce turned around and said, "You wanna know my secret? I'm always annoyed."

Yes, their skills are absurd, no shit Sherlock they are super heroes. And I would like to think that just because those guys can take out a great number of footsoldiers by themselves, it doesn't lessen the threat the other heroes feel from the giant dragon-robots, the motherships, not to mention the imminent reinforcements numbering in the thousands that are about to pass through the portal.

But you just contradicted yourself, hence the lazy writing. If normal people, even normal people with absurd powers, can take out a great deal, then why should the demi-god with a hammer the destroys almost everything, indestructible armor, and the pretty much invincible green monster worry? Hell the green guy broke one of the giant dragon-robots right off the bat with a single punch.

Cap isn't lazy just because he needs something to overcome the MASSIVE handicaps he was born with. He has plenty of other skills like leadership and strategizing, while Widow and Hawkeye have more combat skills that most people simply aren't talented enough to gain through training. This is a case of how the writers give the characters DIFFERENT skill sets and abilities to make them more diverse. I would consider that GOOD writing.

And hell, they're DIFFERENT skill sets all amounted to punching/shooting stuff to varying degrees. And before you say, "Widow's a spy and the best at infiltration, while Captain is the strategist. Banner and Stark are scientists, and Thor is...Thor" bear in mind a few things. Widow didn't infiltrate jack-shit (I'm refusing to count her hijacking a scooter and just flying to the tower cause that's not infiltration, that's just going somewhere on the battlefield). Captain America was the worst strategist I've ever seen, since all of his strategies were pretty much common sense. "Hey cops, get off the street! Hulk, do what you probably would do anyways! Hawkeye, get on that roof and spot for us, even though Iron Man has radar and you'll be trapped on a giant, collapsible building! Everyone else, hit stuff!" Banner and Stark actually did some science stuff, so I'll give 'em that. But in the end, all their "diverging" skills really still just amounted to beating shit up.

I'm curious as to how you would expect the military to mobilize that fast when they just found out minutes ago where the portal was going to open. One advantage of a small team is that it is quicker to move and get into action.

Well ever since pretty much the Cold War, the government's had contingency plans for rapid large-scale deployments in the case of invasions. Jet fighters alone would've been there in minutes if the national guard had been alerted when Fury found out. And with the importance of New York City, you better believe a large force of the National Guard would be there pretty quick, not to mention SWAT elements of the police force and FBI.

Like I said, every story has plot holes to varying degrees. It's an inevitability in order to maintain dramatic value, or to keep focus on specific characters. If they're not apparent to you, fine, I don't begrudge you for not looking for them and just enjoying the movie. That's perfectly acceptable. But the bottom line is Avengers ain't so special that it's the first story ever to not have a single plot hole, and I'm sorry if you don't buy that.

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