The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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Tropes vs. MovieBob

Debunking a recurring argument.

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I say we blame Boris Vallejo and Julie Bell's artwork.

I'm giving Bob props for doing this entire video without mentioning Leisure Suit Larry.

Now I really want to play Big Boob Panty Ninja 12.

Bu usually when it comes to women in the workplace: it's not the rack, but the sack, that they lack that's holding them back.

DVS BSTrD:
Now I really want to play Big Boob Panty Ninja 12.

As do I my friend. As do I.

OT - Well said Bob.

I think I would rather have had the Jabberjaw episode this week. Is it too late for the Jabberjaw episode?

AWWWW I wanted an episode about Jabberjaw

OT: I started to not buy games with characters with unrealistic sexual characteristics. It really feels like pandering to the lowest common denominator. Team Ninja is the most obvious offender of this in the games industry but other devs do it too.

I'm not really sure what to say other than this is a very professional way of dealing with the subject at hand.

The next question is what do we do about it?

MovieBob:
Tropes vs. MovieBob

Debunking a recurring argument.

Watch Video

I think your final point is the most relevant (even though your others were equally true).

The Culture of Power (in this case, white heterosexual male) wants, perhaps subconsciously for some, to guarantee that games continue to be marketed toward them. That means every character must be "as viewed from My Cultural Frame."

The musclemen appeal to what we (as men) culturally believe (on average) that the ideal male hero should look like. What's more, their exaggerated features serve to highlight their viability as heroes. Big muscles = stronger, and so on.

Female characters are designed to appeal to what we (as men) culturally believe (on average) the ideal women should look like. What's more, their exaggerated features serve to highlight their viability as sexual creatures. Nice boobs are great, but have no real bearing on combat ability.

The established culture wants everything to be built around its own archaic specifications. It really has nothing to do with some agenda to keep women down, objectify them sexually, or any kind of mustache-twiddling evil scheme. It's just plain selfishness.

Seriously, it'd be like going to a buffet restaurant and insisting that everything on the buffet be made of chicken, because I like chicken. It has nothing to do with hating vegetables or anything... but it's clear I don't view vegetable-liking folks as equal to myself, as I'm too focused on what I like.

So, were you just attempting to foreshadow the fact that you might do DBZ next week? Because that would be awesome.

DVS BSTrD:
Now I really want to play Big Boob Panty Ninja 12.

you do know that Big Boob Panty Ninja is a guy and his popularity in the 12. iteration baffles audiences, both internationally and in his native Absurdistan.

OT: i kinda have to agree with everything Bob said here and that unusual for me. well maybe not both pictures representing games as a whole had to be Nintendo-related.

I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

Whilst I do stand by my opinion she could self fund (I saw some videos and they seemed pretty decent and the thing you can do at home) I am rather annoyed at the backlash. Whilst I get that the unrealistic body's are a staple among Popular Jargon for a good millennial, woman were used as a representation of the ultimate goal in life. We do get story's about the bravery of woman, as we do with men, but as time progresses we get to the cultural point were the female body was scene less as a temple (Even if the woman herself wasn't seen as anything special) and began to degrade into the over-sexualised fantasy that are presented before you. Lara croft is good once in a while but when most female characters are Double D nymphomaniacs it gets rather annoying. I liked silent Hill 3 for the protagonist, who reacted like any person would to being thrown into a violent world that's out to get her. The new Tomb raider looks promising as they focus on Lara's transition from a scared society girl to a tough female character. Like a bowl of butterscotch it is good once and a while in-between you balanced diet but everyday is just bland and boring. So yes I support the woman who wants to make the series views, even if i do not agree with them, and, whilst unable to pay for the Kick-starter, I do support the idea of this video.

Blunderboy:

DVS BSTrD:
Now I really want to play Big Boob Panty Ninja 12.

As do I my friend. As do I.

OT - Well said Bob.

no no no, Big boob panty ninja 11 has highly overrated. i'll pass.

Well, I agree withe the sentiment, and I'm glad this was placed before the backlash. Now, I'll get to see this rise to absurd numbers when the teenage white male demographic comes a knocking.

There hasn't been a good Big-Boobed Panty-Ninja since VII. And Big-Boobed Panty-Ninja X-2: More Panties was the worst idea ever. They should just quit now.

...and we still live in a world where the majority of gamers use the word "rape" casually and offensively. There is quite a way to go guys...

Oh come ON now! I agreed with almost everything, but I just have to say...

Big-Boobed Panty Ninja 7 was by far the jewel in the crown, The series has just gone so far downhill at this point they're actively mining.

MovieBob:
Tropes vs. MovieBob

Debunking a recurring argument.

THANK YOU.

Oh, by the gods, thank you for this video. Now when I have this argument for the nth time, I can post your video and say "Look. This."

There are times when I disagree with what you have to say Bob, but today is not one of those days. Today is one of the days when I want to stand up and give you an 80s movie slow clap and a high five. Good on you sir.

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

So what? That's all she said she was gunna do. If people want to give her money for that it's fine by me, not like a 5 minute video about a videogame trope ever hurt anyone.

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

She asked for $6k to produce the entire series. The $144k came as a bonus because people really wanted to back her up. She had no control over 96% of the money that was donated to her. Nobody was compelled to donate and since she was basically asking for donation to produce videos in much a similar vein as the ones she's already produced, it's pretty safe to say she's not scamming anyone.

Moviebob and Yahtzee, etc., are compensated for the work they do. They're not producing these videos free of charge. I dunno if they make the same money, more, or less, but it's not for free. And producing videos is expensive, especially if you contract out talent for effects or editing or whatever.

So, check your rage. Nobody's asking you to donate anything or even watch the videos. You're free to ignore it and move on.

Can we have a Jabberjaw episode now? No.. ok, then how about a preview of Big Boob Panty Ninja 12?

Thanks for pointing this crap out.

When I saw the trailer for the kick-starter, I remained as objective as possible, neither allowing myself to say "Oh god, not this again!" or "Oh god, she's so right!"

In the end, I thought about it and thought, "Yes, there's plenty of stereotyping and objectifying of women in video games. But what's this woman's agenda? There's something about her tone that I don't like. I get the feeling she has a certain sense of superiority to people around her. In a way, she reminds me of Michael Moore..."

I later read that she makes a point about still being a virgin. I have yet to confirm it, but if she does indeed make that as a point to try to validate herself, it says a lot about her agenda and her view of men.

But my ultimate realization came about when I saw the hateful responses to her kick-starter trailer. At first I just thought, "Oh great, the internet's at it again." But then I realized, "Wait a minute, she wanted this to happen. She wanted to be pelted with abuse and hate so attention would be drawn to her kick-starter and she'd get the funds she needs. Not only that, but she could possibly use that abuse as ammunition to push the extreme not-feminist idea that men are inferior to women (if that's her agenda, I honestly don't know, it only occurred as a possibility)."

And then, in my best Australian accent, "Clever girl!"

So from there, I decided to ignore this fiasco. Because the abuse is not being caused by the video games themselves, which I think she believes. The abuse is a symptom of larger problems within the gamer and geek cultures. Her video isn't going to change that in either direction, and she herself will be forgotten until she finds another powder keg of a demographic to set off.

And if you haven't noticed, I haven't addressed her by name. Because I don't remember it, even with it being mentioned in the kick-starter promo and this Big Picture episode. Because she is so small compared to the larger issue that is root of the misogyny that exists within gamer/geek culture.

I totally heard that he said "big boob ninja party 12"
to me, sounds a lot marketable than "big boob ninja panty 12"

"Society judges women based on their appearence rather than their ability"
A valid argument yes and realistic enough to be taken seriously, but there's always two sides to a coin.

If you really want to get to the root of the problem, ie, why women have their general value based on the exterior, is to ask the right question.

Is it ONLY because society and heterosexual white males judge them by their appearence
OR
could it be the fact that some women really don't help that problem at all by simply, oh i dunno
PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS IF THAT IS ALL THEY HAVE TO OFFER

seriously, i don't see this argument as valid if it comes from someone who only posts cleavage pictures of themselves on facebook and tweets about all the money they spend on cosmetic bullshit, then you are not entitled to have this argument with me.
If women would like to be judged by their abilities, then show it, make me believe you would actually want that rather than spending countless hours and resources on perfecting your appearence, thats not going to help at all, thats just making it worse for the kind of women who already have it bad and are actually suffering from this problem.

Too often do women expect to get handed everything and not be judged by their ability, because they think their appearence is enough.
So both parts imo have to do their parts in the sense that

Some women need to stop focusing on their appearence and using that as an excuse to
get what they want, and also stop presenting themselves as if the appearence was the most important thing to them.

While some men and society and general needs to stop making these retarded demands from women and portray them in one specific way in media and so on.

This is not a problem to solely blame on society and the heterosexual male ;)

I hope you realize that now many people will expect a Jabberjaw episode sometime in the future. You can't open that pandora's box and not have to deal with the contents.

As for this week's box. Well said, though the issue of the appearance of female characters is one that hits in every media, as was touched on. And it seems to be a societal problem that can't really be fixed in this or that media representation, rather it's a solution that must be overarching, across all forms of entertainment.

I think the main problem is that, even among women (it seems, I make absolutely no claims to know what an individual thinks) is that no one wants to play as someone that just looks conventionally ugly. Even Mario who's a short, fat, hairy guy is a stylized short, fat hairy guy and thus still looks appealing, a real life Mario would probably be less so. Even ugly characters are generally designed to look "badass" and thus fulfill a fantasy.

And I've mentioned it before on this site, and again I don't want to make any assumptions but isn't being beautiful a fantasy for women like being a badass is for men?
And if that is the case, couldn't that also contribute to why nearly every female character has a super model appearance, even the ones who don't dress like they run their clothes through a lawnmower?

I can respect what Anita in her video is saying. I 100% agree with her (and you, Bob) that women have not had a lot of diversity in video games (or any media) like men do. I'll even add on to this video that men are often portrayed hypersexualized as a sign of power of desire to satisfy our primordial desire to be powerful and express power to relieve stress where we feel we don't have power (such as bullied kids playing a round of "Mortal Kombat" to relieve their stress from school at a day). However, I think this statement that there are sexist views in video games, from a Feminist perspective, is handled poorly.

Gamers have faced discrimination and insulting stereotypes directed toward them as well. You could say that its not as bad or as LONG as have women suffered. But when you consider that we had to go through a Supreme Court case just to defend the art-value of video games a few years ago; are sometimes mixed with the "D&D Nerd" stereotype Hollywood uses in their films for slasher films; and China/Korea are leading a campaign to express how dangerous "Internet addiction" is from youths playing too much video games, I think it shouldn't be surprising that gamers would get defensive. So I respect what the Feminists are saying--but being as nice (or as snobbish and jaded as Bob is here) as possible when saying this to gamers than, well, how are you surprised again that gamers would retaliate like this?

I'm not defending the sexist statements from gamers to Anita--I find it repulsive and a sad image of what represents me. However, I think this should call for a different method of "fixing this problem" than just telling us it is a problem, regardless of how nice (or comical/jerk-like) it is told to us. PETA makes a statement of how, they believe, animals are treated by making a game that is playable to prove a point; and unfortunately, Racist White Supremacists make games as well to establish how "evil" any other race that is not their own is. Sure these games are heinous, horrible, and insulting--but they also are made because this group wants to express their message in the target media they believe "has a problem."

Why are we not seeing games made from Feminists? I'm not talking about a triple-A, "Goddess of War" kind of game to rival Kratos (Kratala?), but something made in their image that they can distribute. Release it as a Flash game on Newgrounds or as an Indie game on Xbox Live Arcade. SUPPORT game designers fresh out of College or laid off by hiring them to help you make the game YOU want!

This is not me challenging or saying Feminists are lazy, but as a person looking into game design as a career, turning towards them and saying, "Okay, you want a game? Let's work together and make one."

Well said, Bob. I was personally embarrassed by the comments on this site about Feminist Frequency. So many people were desperately racing to excuse away the little shits on Youtube while taking any stabs at Anita Sarkeesian they could get.

DVS BSTrD:

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

So what? That's all she said she was gunna do. If people want to give her money for that it's fine by me, not like a 5 minute video about a videogame trope ever hurt anyone.

And if people think her videos are going to be worth the $12.5k she gets for each one (rather than the $834 per video she was aiming for originally)... so be it.

Methinks Eri should wait to judge until the videos are actually out.

I find it slightly depressing that the best examples of female playable characters I can think of the top of my head are:

The Dragonborn
The Warden
The Champion
Commander Shepard
Noble Six
Samus

Five Blank Slates and one who has a "Zero Suit".

Best female video game character is Alyx Vance by the way.

I honestly can't hear the whole "but men are depicted with unrealistic bodies, just like women!" without thinking about this Penny Arcade comic.

Oh and if there's something i have to say about this project that hasn't been said already
Well then i'll just leave this here and you can see for yourselves

I got into one argument on YouTube with a guy saying feminists aren't allowed to complain about these games because it specifically doesn't appeal to them. When I tried to say it's a more general problem with games, he brushed it off bring up Angry Birds and a bunch of other games that don't really fit into my argument. I'd like to use this video to help with my argument, but I don't think it'll help any.

There's also the fact that, more often then not, the more rational people on the Internet say she's badly equipped for this kind of project, in that she barely tries with addressing female tropes, usually reading off of TV Tropes and saying what the problems are, rather than how to fix them or some Jazz. I really don't know how to argue with that, since I haven't seen all of her videos, but even stuff, resorting to what's gone down on the comments page of that YouTube video... Not classy at ALL!

Loop Stricken:
Oh come ON now! I agreed with almost everything, but I just have to say...

Big-Boobed Panty Ninja 7 was by far the jewel in the crown, The series has just gone so far downhill at this point they're actively mining.

PPFF!!!! BBPN6 was better!!

but your right, they hit bottom and started digging awhile ago

OT:as i watched this i couldn't help but think 'and people wonder why i want a female character that looks like a capable warrior and not a super model', guess that's the one thing D3 did right eh?

anyway, good ep, even if the subject tends to make me sigh in disappointment due to the 'neanderthals' open their mouths

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