The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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Xanthious:
I noticed Bob conveniently ignored that men are indeed objectified in much the same way as women in things like trashy romance novels, daytime soap operas, TV shows like Desperate Housewives and Gray's Anatomy, or even movies like Twilight and I could go on. Last I checked there aren't hordes of men getting in line to buy soap boxes to stand on while they get all indignant on the internet about that though.

Last I checked, the people who make trashy romance novels aren't trying to market to both genders. And also last I checked, they aren't trying to avidly defend their portrayals of men as "fair."

It's not that things can't be geared toward one gender or another. It's that many games nowadays are trying to appeal to a gender-neutral audience, but they still greatly favor the male side of things, portraying women only as men want to see them. That is why there gets to be so much outrage about this stuff. The fact that they make something that clearly panders to a male audience, and then try to tell us women we should like it too. It's just insulting.

Apparently this fact is not really heard, so I'll keep repeating it. no, gaming does not have a problem with its treatment of women, society does. And focusing the attention on games, or 'tropes' in games, or whatever, serves to divert attention from the very real problem that is pervasive in society.

in addition, linking the objectification of women to sexism is a bit silly. You have already mentioned it yourself Bob, objectification of men is totally fine and they hardly ever have problem with sexism in the places where it matters, so apparently this objectification has little to do with anything. There is nothing inherently wrong with catering to your target audience and contrary to popular belief, most kids grow up in a social environment and will not be heavily influenced by the depiction of women in games, much in the same way they are not influenced by the depiction of men in said games.

This generalizing approach you call a 'community' but what is in reality a hobby shared by many people who differ widely in age, sex, background, etc. needs to die. 'Gamers' are not a homogeneous group, they do not have a central authority and noone carries any form of responsibility because of that hobby.

Change your argument to porn and the depiction of women there and you will suddenly sound like a prude, even though your argument would be exactly the same. Now I'm assuming you are totally ok with porn existing of course, but I hope that gets you thinking. People are fighting windmills here, innocent designers who just want to make some cash with tits and ass, while we should be fighting sexists, racists and whatnot, especially the ones that get away with it.

PercyBoleyn:

Matt_LRR:

Considering she's got a masters degree in social and political thought

Yeah those served her well. Here's a preview of her upcoming hit series.

Hey, she's making a video about the role of women in video games. I thought she needed at least six grand to do that? What the hell?!

She got her master's from York University, by the way. Interesting read.
http://www.yorku.ca/gradspth/

However, this is all a bit besides the point. My beef with her is the way she used Kickstarter to scam people out of their money. She is perfectly capable of making videos, why does she need 160 grand then?

Matt_LRR:
and her master's thesis was written on the topic of the representation of women in science-fiction and fantasy media

I'm going to ignore the obvious appeal to authority.

Matt_LRR:
between you and Anita Sarkeesian, who knows what they're talking about less?

I'm guessing you're implying it's me but I'm going to go with her on this one.

She asked for 6k, not 160k. People donated of their own free will to support a cause they believe in. And contrary to what you believe, making a video series--the capture, the writing, the research, the editing--is not free, especially if you are doing that instead of, say, freelance writing, which is what she's been making a living off of thus far.

And yes, someone who has actively been researching this stuff PROBABLY knows more than you do, which is obvious in your posts.

PercyBoleyn:
Hey, she's making a video about the role of women in video games. I thought she needed at least six grand to do that? What the hell?!

Yeah, how dare people profit off of projects that make use of their academic backgrounds.

PercyBoleyn:
She got her master's from York University, by the way. Interesting read.

You realize that York is among the top-rated universities in Canada, right?

PercyBoleyn:
However, this is all a bit besides the point. My beef with her is the way she used Kickstarter to scam people out of their money. She is perfectly capable of making videos, why does she need 160 grand then?

People GAVE her 160 grand. She asked for SIX. Six thousand dollars is pretty inline for the creation of a video series. Maybe a little low, actually. Funny enough, people liked the idea, and decided they wanted to pledge more support than that. Fucking supply and demand, man. Demand is apparent, and consumers evendently value the project far beyond the $6000 she asked for.

PercyBoleyn:

Matt_LRR:
and her master's thesis was written on the topic of the representation of women in science-fiction and fantasy media

I'm going to ignore the obvious appeal to authority.

1. An appeal to authority is not a fallacy when the authority being referenced is speaking in their field of expertise and their claim is non-controversial to other authorities in the same field.

2. It's not an appeal to authority to point out that someone is credentialed in a field when you call into question whether or not they're credentialed in that field.

yeti585:
How have we failed to define "modern masculinity"? Masculinity has not changed with time, neither has femininity.

Read "The Odyssey" sometime. Odysseus was a heroic, masculine man according to Classical Greek virtues. But in modern society, he would be considered a psychopath. Societal virtues and gender roles have changed.

I guess male superheros cannot be role models to you, or you know, all the other male role models. Anyone that claims that "[men] have to claim feminists are all out to get us" Is as blind as the small minority of men that actually claim that.

I said we don't have enough, not that they don't exist. Please do not deliberately misquote me.

And if the men who believe this are misguided, then shouldn't something be done about that?

Well, you should criticize Homer and "classic Greek" culture because many of our characters and archetypes are influenced and based around them. But, that is not what this discussion is about.

I'm going to read that as, "I've never actually read 'The Odyssey.'"

With this attitude you must have already forgiven Blizzard for the DRM in Diablo III or Electronic Arts for everything they have done. "Come on guys, you can't blame Electronic Arts for releasing the same game with minor tweaks! It's not like they're responsible for their work!"

image

Markus is marketed this way because that is the only way he can be marketed. Unless you want to create a commercial of Markus dancing through flowers in a pretty dress and then in the game he has to fight his way through hordes of monsters?

Really? He has to be portrayed as a snarling, one-note fuckwit who only cares about his own issues? He can only be marketed as a walking billboard for steroids?

JerrytheBullfrog:
if you read her updates, she's going to be doing it to turn this into a full time scholarly thing with funding research materials, etc.

Then case closed.

ad5x5:
Not saying physical appearance is the entirety of characterisation, but it does help.

Physical appearance is not characterization at all. It might tell you something about the character. But it isn't characterization. Characterization is how they feel about things. Batman's dead parents don't give him character. How he feels about that does.

And quite a lot of people agree with you, however some african tribes view having a long neck as an attractive thing so they wear rings round their neck to stretch them. Can't say I'd be moving heaven and earth for someone with a foot-long neck. /hyperbole

But suppose you set a game in such a setting where that was normal. Can we no longer empathize with a relationship between a male and female protagonist because of that aesthetic?

This is why female characters will be within the cultural norms, possibly with desirable physical characteristics emphasised. Some small and slight, others lithe and tall.
There won't be any that are too far from the accepted boundaries of attractiveness for a society.

If there characters are written well enough, it shouldn't matter. Most of my issues with gaming go back to, "We need better writing!"

I usually agree with you Bob. But if you think a good step towards equality is to draw the line deeper and cement it in (like what feminism does whether it likes it or not), then you're WROONG.

Also, stop saying "heterosexual" like it's an insult. I'm bi and basically aim to straddle as many gender and sex identity lines as possible, but as if anything would change if it was a "gay" boss? This is why people always feel like they're being picked on when feminism and sexism is bought up - usually because they are. And it's not a good way to handle these problems. I can't come up with anything better, sure, but something is not better than nothing.

PercyBoleyn:

Yeah those served her well. Here's a preview of her upcoming hit series.

I just want to touch one BIG thing that was completely omitted from her video. She didn't talk about the game being FUN.

You know the actual core of the product that if the product in question is actually FUN to play? She's too busy being outraged by the marketing(which was based in JAPAN) to which I should also comment that she is applying WESTERNIZED standards of culture to JAPAN in terms of what is socially acceptable.

If she is really does have a Master's degree you would think that she would be able to actually at the very least address the notion of how different societies and cultures find what is acceptable in terms of sexuality.

The hilarious part is that while she rambles on about the statistics she doesn't actually even in a positive light how companies are actually trying to STOP such acts to which people are still going to have free will and cannot be monitored 24/7.

Also the leap in logic that by looking at an advertisement is going to make a person a sexual predator is just the same leap in logic that playing a violent video game is going to make a video gamer violent to murder someone. We worked so hard to actually fight these leaps of logic and actually ensure that people should be held responsible for their own personal actions and not actually be held to represent "gaming culture".

Also of all those reports of groping and such does the report or does she find out how many of those men what their actual motivations were based upon? Cause I'd like to see the hard evidence that the core reason that looking at advertisements I can find in a sports illustrated ad would be the main causation for a man to grope a woman and completely ignore the individuals background from how they were raised by their parents, their own social interactions both negative and positive involving men and women and their actual work and social environment. All of that is completely overlooked and not addressed by someone who I should not take seriously cause she has a masters degree.

PercyBoleyn:

JerrytheBullfrog:
So novelists who get advances on their novels are scamming, too?

She's a novelist now?

JerrytheBullfrog:
So that they can eat/live/do stuff with their life while they work on their project?

Did she make it perfectly clear that part of the money would be used to pay for her living expenses?

JerrytheBullfrog:
Academic research takes time and money

I don't remember paying 160k the last time I bought a book.

JerrytheBullfrog:
and if you've actually bothered to look into things she's going to be doing stuff with the $152k she DIDNT ask for that might be worth the money.

If she din't need the excess money she could've either given it back or donated it to a charity. So far, she has done neither of those things. She does not need 160k to make a six part video series, in fact she didn't even need 6k.

JerrytheBullfrog:
But no, it actually was sexist misogynistic pigs who tried shutting her down before they'd even heard her arguments.

I'm guessing you didn't bother looking into this issue besides reading the Escapist' and Kotaku's articles on the matter.

DrVornoff:
Caveat emptor. If you don't like her videos, then don't watch them. You don't have to be tactless and crass to make your point.

You're either missing the point or being purposefully obtuse.

DrVornoff:
Also some people like her videos and wanted to donate.

And that somehow doesn't make this a scam how?

Wow, you could make a living selling to farms with all the straw you've got there.

(And I've looked into it a lot more than you have, as is evident by the fact that you don't know that she's said that she's looking into stuff to actually do with the $152k that she *didn't ask for*, whether it's charity or setting up education or just turning FeministFrequency into her full time job instead of doing it on the side while freelancing.

And no, you didn't pay $160k. I didn't pay Sarkeesian $160k either. I just paid $25. And what, pray tell, is the difference between a novelist getting a $6k advance on her fee so that she can live while she writes, and a videomaker getting the same thing?

May I assume that you will now be raging at writer Seth Godin for asking for $40k and getting over $200k to... write his next book? I mean, that's a scam, isn't it? Plenty of people write stuff on the internet for free.

No? You're not going to rage at him?

Oh, it's because he's not a woman criticizing your little male-dominated bubble. Got it.

I dont like her videos. She rubs me the wrong way in her kickstarter vid & her past videos. While this issue needs talked about, it should be talked about by someone else. Primarily anyone that's not going to arrogantly eye-roll their way through the video. Someone thats not going to feel as antagonistic about the matter. Frankly she should not have gotten this much publicity for being trolled. Its something that happens daily & something she combats in the comments of her videos already. Something seems odd that journalists just jumped to this as if it were something out of the ordinary. As for her qualification? well i think any qualification she MAY have had goes out the window with the fact she released a bayonetta video and flat out lied that molestation rates in the USA were at peak levels. FBI reports are showing a drop. Not to mention women only trains wont do fuck all to our rates because public transit is not big enough in the US & few of our sexual crimes take place in public, with only 7% taking place in vehicles. Its like this person is talking out of her ass. Still high rates but by no means peak, in fact we are at least 60% under our peak rates of sexual violence. So comparing east & west as similar on social levels & misrepresenting legal statistics. Good for her.

Now if you will excuse me, i have to take a vacation to this 'youtube comments' location. A mighty doom indeed. Should it fail to kill me, Bob had best be doing that Jabberjaw episode next week.

My main problem with Sarkeesian is the same issue I have with all feminists.

Good start to a misogynistic rant, eh?

But seriously. She, like all feminists, sees a different cause.

Feminism:
Misogyny, Stereotyping, Inequality, Sexism.

Me:
Gender Stereotyping, Inequality, Universal Sexism (as in, it goes both ways)

So I am totally and utterly happy for her to make her videos. Because I feel that they need to be made. Addressing tropes is a good thing and requesting 6 thousand dollars is not too insane to do so. But, like all feminists, in my eyes she fails to address the root of the problem, just one of its symptoms.

Although I would prefer it if it was "Tropes vs Everyone: People in Video Games".

MovieBob:

Mai Shiranui looking like she does is awesome. EVERYONE looking like she does is stupid.

And in two sentences (or one, depending on how you choose to transcribe it) Moviebob manages to state what usually takes me several paragraphs.

There is nothing wrong with sexy characters in and of themselves. Sexuality is natural, and fantasies are natural to have. The problem isn't in the existence of the characters, the problem is in the VOLUME of them. Cute bodies are only an issue because games act as if ALL women need to have cute bodies. I'm not against developing some strong female leads wearing full not-revealing-at-all combat gear. And I'm not against females having figures like Mario. I'm just against absolutely getting rid of the females built like supermodels, because that would be a breach on free speech, and a little bit of fantasizing is healthy. "Sexy" is not sexist by itself. "Sexy" is only sexist when it becomes the only option. And I think MovieBob is right when he implies that this is what concerns a lot of people: That fighting sexism in games is going to lead to the utter and complete removal of all sexy women ever. But he's right to tell us to chill. Even open-minded women will agree that you can't pass laws on what people can depict in fiction. So I don't think babes are going to go away.

Tenmar:
Snip.

Okay, so you've never watched any of her videos. Cool.

Not that Bob's wrong about the ongoing objectification of women in Western culture - and American culture in particular - but I have to confess it did seem more than a little weird hearing him preach to a throng of video-game-playing dweebs (present company included) that having something less than the athletic and pristinely hygienic look that is common among video game heroes, won't be a liability to them.

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

Whilst not really doing anything more than telling us what we already know mixed with some ill-informed nonsense.

By the way, the majority of the idiotic Youtube comments stem from the fact she and her lackeys spammed 4chan which is very well known to be the sexist, racist, pretty-much-everything-ist asshole of the internet where no self-respecting gamer goes with her Youtube video.

Don't believe me?

http://youtu.be/OExCdOImmVA?t=10m55s

See for yourself.

ThrobbingEgo:

Tenmar:
Snip.

Okay, so you've never watched any of her videos. Cool.

Way to go in ignoring my entire post and actually yes, I have watched ALL of her videos. To be honestly I actually got sick watching them cause of the massive amounts of leaps of logic she takes and holds her own opinion over the core of the issue or factors that would actually cause say said men who grope women to actually grope women.

Last I checked making posts like this is quite reportable.

EDIT:Hell watching her Suckerpunch movie review didn't really offer me anything more than the director was pandering to male fantasy. Yet if I watched Moviebob's review I actually find out the director was the same man involved in Watchman and 300. So is this "parasite" (using HER word there) really part of the "male driven backlash against women"?(once again her words)

Also note how just NEGATIVE she is. I'm sorry but being an actual critic means actually criticizing the actual content of the work and understanding the background and portfolio of the person involved. You get NONE of that with her video and learn NOTHING as well.

EDIT 2: Anyone else noticed that she is ALWAYS fixated on the age group 15-25 male children and adults are actually doing? You know the time where we as a society start to loosen and let go of the reigns and allow them to freely explore and take part in whatever activities they desire for better or for worse dealing with all the rewards and consequence? Shouldn't we as people be able to enjoy that freedom on what people would like to create and consume?

RazadaMk2:
My main problem with Sarkeesian is the same issue I have with all feminists.

Good start to a misogynistic rant, eh?

But seriously. She, like all feminists, sees a different cause.

Feminism:
Misogyny, Stereotyping, Inequality, Sexism.

Me:
Gender Stereotyping, Inequality, Universal Sexism (as in, it goes both ways)

So I am totally and utterly happy for her to make her videos. Because I feel that they need to be made. Addressing tropes is a good thing and requesting 6 thousand dollars is not too insane to do so. But, like all feminists, in my eyes she fails to address the root of the problem, just one of its symptoms.

Although I would prefer it if it was "Tropes vs Everyone: People in Video Games".

Yes, there are absolutely problematic portrayals of men in videogames. Yes, someone should make a video series examining the ways that tropes harm men, too (though really, often these are the other side of a coin that's sexist in portraying women - men are considered "disposable" protectors because women are weak and in need of protecting, for instance).

However, someone who wants to just make a series about women is under no obligations to make it about men, too. That should be our job, as men.

Ickorus:

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

Whilst not really doing anything more than telling us what we already know mixed with some ill-informed nonsense.

By the way, the majority of the idiotic Youtube comments stem from the fact she and her lackeys spammed 4chan which is very well known to be the sexist, racist, pretty-much-everything-ist asshole of the internet where no self-respecting gamer goes with her Youtube video.

Don't believe me?

http://youtu.be/OExCdOImmVA?t=10m55s

See for yourself.

You missed that this went way beyond YouTube comments, didn't you? People were defacing her Wikipedia page, trying to get her kickstarter shut down, etc.

Bull, moviebob. If someone refuses to hire someone "because they don't look like Lara Croft" they're retarded. Video games = fantasy. Very few people have problems with confusing fantasy and reality, so yeah, the portrayal of men and women in fantasy/fiction is unrealistic, but it has NO bearing on reality or how women are treated in real life. Unless someone is just a stupid asshole, but you can't really blame a video game for making someone that.

Video games don't make people suicidal or murderously violent. Video games do not make men sexist, and video games are not damaging to women in the slightest. They are fiction, they are fantasy and there's nothing wrong with that. Feminists be darned. I swear anything with an 'ist' in it is bad...for everyone.

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

Yeah but the thing is she didn't ask for that much. What should she do if people WANT to give her so much money?

PercyBoleyn:

JerrytheBullfrog:
So novelists who get advances on their novels are scamming, too?

She's a novelist now?

JerrytheBullfrog:
So that they can eat/live/do stuff with their life while they work on their project?

Did she make it perfectly clear that part of the money would be used to pay for her living expenses?

JerrytheBullfrog:
Academic research takes time and money

I don't remember paying 160k the last time I bought a book.

JerrytheBullfrog:
and if you've actually bothered to look into things she's going to be doing stuff with the $152k she DIDNT ask for that might be worth the money.

If she din't need the excess money she could've either given it back or donated it to a charity. So far, she has done neither of those things. She does not need 160k to make a six part video series, in fact she didn't even need 6k.

JerrytheBullfrog:
But no, it actually was sexist misogynistic pigs who tried shutting her down before they'd even heard her arguments.

I'm guessing you didn't bother looking into this issue besides reading the Escapist' and Kotaku's articles on the matter.

DrVornoff:
Caveat emptor. If you don't like her videos, then don't watch them. You don't have to be tactless and crass to make your point.

You're either missing the point or being purposefully obtuse.

DrVornoff:
Also some people like her videos and wanted to donate.

And that somehow doesn't make this a scam how?

Ooooh...OOOOOH. PICK ME!

1. Nope, but his point still stands and you neither refuted it nor attempted to show how one independent differs from the other.

2. No, its a given. As with any other project ever conceived by man, if costs are involved the persons living expenses are part of that. The issue here, in your regard, is inexperience or lack of adequate understanding.

3. Considering she only asked for 6000 to start with, said she would do more with the extra cash (up to 50,000) which included bonus videos and also a separate project, and is now discussing with her backers what she will do with the rest, its more then just research. But even if you think research amounts only to one book... well, at least we know where you lack of knowledge comes from.

4. Considering its only been a week since the funding ended, she now has to discuss possible uses of the cash with her backers. How about a little patience? She didn't expect to get this much (ironically, thanks to the trolls).

5. Nope his point is perfectly clear. Its their money, not yours. Its their risk, not yours. The only beef you have is that it exists and you think those people are stupid and she's manipulative (despite being as transparent as possible about progress).

6. It will only constitute as a scam if she doesn't meet all her promises and tactfully uses the cash funded. Therefore NO ONE can call it a scam. As of now, it is still in progress.

Also considering she is a public image, has her real name and her real image depicted in multiple places on the web, she can't make off with 150000 without getting some serious heat on her ass. Think logically.

JerrytheBullfrog:

Ickorus:

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

Whilst not really doing anything more than telling us what we already know mixed with some ill-informed nonsense.

By the way, the majority of the idiotic Youtube comments stem from the fact she and her lackeys spammed 4chan which is very well known to be the sexist, racist, pretty-much-everything-ist asshole of the internet where no self-respecting gamer goes with her Youtube video.

Don't believe me?

http://youtu.be/OExCdOImmVA?t=10m55s

See for yourself.

You missed that this went way beyond YouTube comments, didn't you? People were defacing her Wikipedia page, trying to get her kickstarter shut down, etc.

4chan and oh, I don't know.. 4chan.

That sort of shit is what they live for, being the asshole of the internet and all.

DrVornoff:
Read "The Odyssey" sometime. Odysseus was a heroic, masculine man according to Classical Greek virtues. But in modern society, he would be considered a psychopath. Societal virtues and gender roles have changed.

Odysseus was a hero. The Odyssey followed him on his "hero's journey". How would a soldier going to war be psychopathic today?

I said we don't have enough, not that they don't exist. Please do not deliberately misquote me.

And if the men who believe this are misguided, then shouldn't something be done about that?

Yes, something should be done about that.

Well, you should criticize Homer and "classic Greek" culture because many of our characters and archetypes are influenced and based around them. But, that is not what this discussion is about.

I'm going to read that as, "I've never actually read 'The Odyssey.'"

Because we don't have stories that follow the "hero's journey" archetype.

image

You must have missed the part about people taking credit and blame for their work.

Really? He has to be portrayed as a snarling, one-note fuckwit who only cares about his own issues? He can only be marketed as a walking billboard for steroids?

That's all you said he was, a flat character. Marketing him as anything else would be false wouldn't it?

JerrytheBullfrog:
She asked for 6k, not 160k.

As if that wasn't an outrageous demand anyways.

JerrytheBullfrog:
And contrary to what you believe, making a video series--the capture, the writing, the research, the editing--is not free, especially if you are doing that instead of, say, freelance writing, which is what she's been making a living off of thus far.

It isn't? She already had a video camera, you don't need cash to write a script and she already had an editing software. If she truly needed the funds to create this video series then she should have made it clear what the money would be spent on in detail. People were not donating to pay for her living expenses you know.

JerrytheBullfrog:
And yes, someone who has actively been researching this stuff PROBABLY knows more than you do, which is obvious in your posts.

You should watch her videos sometimes. Her mastery of the feminist arts truly shine there.

Matt_LRR:
Yeah, how dare people profit off of projects that make use of their academic backgrounds.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that she needed that money to pay for the the academic research that she can do for free at her local library, the video editing software that she already has and the video camera that she, also, already has. Nowhere in her Kickstarter page did she mention making a profit.

Matt_LRR:
You realize that York is among the top-rated universities in of Canada, right?

She only has a master's. That's not much.

Matt_LRR:
People GAVE her 160 grand. She asked for SIX.

And because people gave her 160 grand it's somehow OK for her to keep it all? If she only needed six grand she should have either donated the money to charity or give it back to the people who donated.

Matt_LRR:
Six thousand dollars is pretty inline for the creation of a video series.

On what might she spend those six grand considering she already has the equipment needed to produce said video series and, in fact, has already produced numerous videos on this subject.

Matt_LRR:
Funny enough, people liked the idea, and decided they wanted to pledge more support than that.

I'm not surprised considering just how much she lied.

Matt_LRR:
Fucking supply and demand, man. Demand is apparent, and consumers evendently value the project far beyond the $6000 she asked for.

Oh so she's running a business now?

Matt_LRR:
1. An appeal to authority is not a fallacy when the authority being referenced is speaking in their feild of expertise and their claim is non-controversial to other authorities in the same field.

Women in video games is not her field of expertise.

Matt_LRR:
2. It's not an appeal to authority to point out that someone is credentialed in a field when you call into question whether or not they're credentialed in that field.

I din't call her credentials into question, she did.

JerrytheBullfrog:

RazadaMk2:
My main problem with Sarkeesian is the same issue I have with all feminists.

Good start to a misogynistic rant, eh?

But seriously. She, like all feminists, sees a different cause.

Feminism:
Misogyny, Stereotyping, Inequality, Sexism.

Me:
Gender Stereotyping, Inequality, Universal Sexism (as in, it goes both ways)

So I am totally and utterly happy for her to make her videos. Because I feel that they need to be made. Addressing tropes is a good thing and requesting 6 thousand dollars is not too insane to do so. But, like all feminists, in my eyes she fails to address the root of the problem, just one of its symptoms.

Although I would prefer it if it was "Tropes vs Everyone: People in Video Games".

Yes, there are absolutely problematic portrayals of men in videogames. Yes, someone should make a video series examining the ways that tropes harm men, too (though really, often these are the other side of a coin that's sexist in portraying women - men are considered "disposable" protectors because women are weak and in need of protecting, for instance).

However, someone who wants to just make a series about women is under no obligations to make it about men, too. That should be our job, as men.

You misread me slightly.

I disagree with the whole notion of "Men doing men things" and "Women doing women things".

I think feminism does not go quite far enough. Gender equality in my eyes does not mean we should equalise the genders, it means we should abolish our current view on what gender is and any link it has to physical traits.

That is why I utterly support her videos and I think it is fucking brilliant what she is doing. And why I largely support feminism as a whole, because right now it is the only movement that is truly trying to equalise things.

But I would be much happier if instead of bringing women to the same level as men it was bringing men and women to the same, significantly higher, level.

I disagree that it is kneejerk because Extra Credits brought up the same issue and they weren't jumped for it. Although building up major brownie points before hand has more to do with it.

Diversity is a lovely thing. But I think this has less to do with the issues brought up, and more to do with the person behind it and the project goals. Which whole video parts will be made just to deconstruct certain archetypes. Which isn't AT ALL helpful towards the cause and will only get people to attack your movement as you're basically attacking what they love with no actual substance.

Tenmar:

ThrobbingEgo:

Tenmar:
Snip.

Okay, so you've never watched any of her videos. Cool.

Way to go in ignoring my entire post and actually yes, I have watched ALL of her videos. To be honestly I actually got sick watching them cause of the massive amounts of leaps of logic she takes and holds her own opinion over the core of the issue or factors that would actually cause say said men who grope women to actually grope women.

Last I checked making posts like this is quite reportable.

You're referring to the Japanese advertisement campaign for Bayonetta? Watch the video again without the rage. She didn't say the ad campaign caused people to grope women. She said this was alarming in context as an advertisement presented in a Japanese subway. That's like saying, "Thumbs up, molesters. Take a card."

The ad can't force anyone to do anything, but she has solid reasons to criticize it.

Go ahead and report me. I don't really care.

michael87cn:
Bull, moviebob. If someone refuses to hire someone "because they don't look like Lara Croft" they're retarded. Video games = fantasy. Very few people have problems with confusing fantasy and reality, so yeah, the portrayal of men and women in fantasy/fiction is unrealistic, but it has NO bearing on reality or how women are treated in real life. Unless someone is just a stupid asshole, but you can't really blame a video game for making someone that.

Video games don't make people suicidal or murderously violent. Video games do not make men sexist, and video games are not damaging to women in the slightest. They are fiction, they are fantasy and there's nothing wrong with that. Feminists be darned. I swear anything with an 'ist' in it is bad...for everyone.

It really must be nice living in the sheltered world you live in....

animehermit:

corrosiveblood:

Father Time:

Can't tell if trolling but "so she can do it only with your dirty musculine help!"

There is no video game character ever who can complete the game without the player's help. If it does we call it a movie.

Actual quote from developer:
"They're more like 'I want to protect her.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.'"

Actual butthurt from "female gamer"
"So lets see...let's remove Lara from being fully badass to weak 'Whedon-flavored female hero' bullshit because you know...that's exactly what I want to see in Lara. Not a confident badass fully aware of her sexuality. Nope, can't have that, might scare the boys are TARGET DEMO."

enjoy fully here
http://kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-to-protect-the-new-less-curvy-lara-croft

Ok, so I don't agree with what the developer said here, but the quote you used from a "female gamer" is even worse. Now we shouldn't have complex characters with flaws because females characters should have no flaws whatsoever.

and since when did 'Whedon-flavored female hero' become an insult? He's probably the best nerd icon at writing female charatcers.

In other news women disagree on what makes a good female character.

I honestly didn't know some of them liked the old Lara, but I've never played tomb raider so...

RazadaMk2:

JerrytheBullfrog:

RazadaMk2:
My main problem with Sarkeesian is the same issue I have with all feminists.

Good start to a misogynistic rant, eh?

But seriously. She, like all feminists, sees a different cause.

Feminism:
Misogyny, Stereotyping, Inequality, Sexism.

Me:
Gender Stereotyping, Inequality, Universal Sexism (as in, it goes both ways)

So I am totally and utterly happy for her to make her videos. Because I feel that they need to be made. Addressing tropes is a good thing and requesting 6 thousand dollars is not too insane to do so. But, like all feminists, in my eyes she fails to address the root of the problem, just one of its symptoms.

Although I would prefer it if it was "Tropes vs Everyone: People in Video Games".

Yes, there are absolutely problematic portrayals of men in videogames. Yes, someone should make a video series examining the ways that tropes harm men, too (though really, often these are the other side of a coin that's sexist in portraying women - men are considered "disposable" protectors because women are weak and in need of protecting, for instance).

However, someone who wants to just make a series about women is under no obligations to make it about men, too. That should be our job, as men.

You misread me slightly.

I disagree with the whole notion of "Men doing men things" and "Women doing women things".

I think feminism does not go quite far enough. Gender equality in my eyes does not mean we should equalise the genders, it means we should abolish our current view on what gender is and any link it has to physical traits.

That is why I utterly support her videos and I think it is fucking brilliant what she is doing. And why I largely support feminism as a whole, because right now it is the only movement that is truly trying to equalise things.

But I would be much happier if instead of bringing women to the same level as men it was bringing men and women to the same, significantly higher, level.

In an ideal world? Yes. Yes, we should. Perhaps one day we will even reach the point as a society where we can be truly post-racial and post-gender.

That is not this day. And suggesting "well why aren't you focused on the problems we ALL face" when someone is trying to focus on the problems faced by a marginalized group is derailing. Almost certainly well-intentioned derailing, but it doesn't help.

JerrytheBullfrog:
(And I've looked into it a lot more than you have, as is evident by the fact that you don't know that she's said that she's looking into stuff to actually do with the $152k that she *didn't ask for*, whether it's charity or setting up education or just turning FeministFrequency into her full time job instead of doing it on the side while freelancing.

So let me get this straight, people donated to her thinking she needed money to create a video series and she's going to use that money to make her website a "full time job"? And that doesn't sound fishy to you at all? The right thing to do would've been to either donate that money to charity, which she has yet to do even though her project was funded a week ago or give the excess money back.

JerrytheBullfrog:
And no, you didn't pay $160k. I didn't pay Sarkeesian $160k either. I just paid $25.

I don't remember talking about that.

JerrytheBullfrog:
And what, pray tell, is the difference between a novelist getting a $6k advance on her fee so that she can live while she writes, and a videomaker getting the same thing?

I already told you, she didn't make it clear that the money would be used to cover her living expenses. She isn't working with a fucking publisher here, she asked for donations to make a video series. There's a distinct difference between the two, one which I'm not too confident you'll realize.

JerrytheBullfrog:
May I assume that you will now be raging at writer Seth Godin for asking for $40k and getting over $200k to... write his next book? I mean, that's a scam, isn't it? Plenty of people write stuff on the internet for free.

If he doesn't make it clear what he's going to use the excess money for yes, that could also be labeled a scam. He still has a month to go though.

JerrytheBullfrog:
Oh, it's because he's not a woman criticizing your little male-dominated bubble. Got it.

Cool, a strawman. I'm guessing the idea that video games are sexist towards both genders is insane to you.

While I frequently disagree Anita and would never support here projects, I still see no reason for the back lash she's getting, she asked for money, she told people what is planned on doing with the money and gave them the option to pay. "Oh but she doesn't deserve to get money because she just sits in front of a camera" lots of people get payed to sit in front of cameras and talk out there ass, I don't see a mad hate-on for Joy Behar, Elisabeth Hasselbeck, Sherri Shepherd.

To be honest I didn't know any of this ever happened, mostly because as the one Crummy Bastard once said, "I live in a constant vegetative state of cannot be asked."

Anyway, I for one am inclined to agree with the idea that multi-media, and by extension video games, have a notoriously bad history with female characters. Ignoring the argument that we also have trouble writing just characters, let alone female or minority ones, I tend to agree with these claims. The super sexy costumes, the over abundance of needless love interests, the over used damsel in distress etc etc.

I still however do not care, again "cannot be asked".

But then again I am bothered by some of this when I'm accused of being a misogynist or associated with this as a consumer of supposed misogynistic materials.

I voted for Blond Shep in the Bioware ME3 redraw FemShep voting thing, I must be a sexist little boy with a skewed view of women. I as a male gamer tend to play a female avatar when given the option, I must be a control dominating freak driven by a fantasy of creating and ogling my perfect woman that has no connection to reality. I'm not bothered that a majority or roles for women are in the supporting nature to lead characters, surely that's because that's the only place I feel women aught to hold.

The point I mean to bring around by this is that, no I don't feel those things. I don't hate women, I don't want to pigeon hold them into the socially media constraints or whatever other terms you used to describe this portrayal of women. And I think most gamers and furthermore their creators feel the same way.

Which is why it feels so patronizing when the misogyny argument gets lobbied around. I get it that my media consumption of choice has problems, in fact we sometimes really suck, but there's a argument to be made that because one person didn't like something that doesn't make that something sexist or racist or whatever.

One other thing in this case in particular.

There's also in my viewings the unwilling to admit that feminism, in this specific case anyway, cannot be misguided. There's never the possibility that a single or group of feminists view of the media can be skewed for lack of taste, or poor judgment, or driven be their own ego or other self serving bullshit.

These things are all very real possibilities, with actual evidence and events to point out, and not for it being a feminist argument but just simply on the grounds that these are ideas put forth by humans. You know, those pinkish squishy creatures with brains that sometimes diverge off reason and accountability regardless of their race/gender/sexual preference.

You as a feminist possibly cannot see the irony of a joke, can miss the point of a character or story arc, can be driven by your own inflated sense of self worth, can overlook contradicting data to drive whatever point you're trying to make seem bigger and more prevalent then it actually is. Again, you do these things not because you're a feminist but because you're a human being with just as many faults and stupid thoughts as I have.

PercyBoleyn:

JerrytheBullfrog:
She asked for 6k, not 160k.

As if that wasn't an outrageous demand anyways.

JerrytheBullfrog:
And contrary to what you believe, making a video series--the capture, the writing, the research, the editing--is not free, especially if you are doing that instead of, say, freelance writing, which is what she's been making a living off of thus far.

It isn't? She already had a video camera, you don't need cash to write a script and she already had an editing software. If she truly needed the funds to create this video series then she should have made it clear what the money would be spent on in detail. People were not donating to pay for her living expenses you know.

JerrytheBullfrog:
And yes, someone who has actively been researching this stuff PROBABLY knows more than you do, which is obvious in your posts.

You should watch her videos sometimes. Her mastery of the feminist arts truly shine there.

Matt_LRR:
Yeah, how dare people profit off of projects that make use of their academic backgrounds.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that she needed that money to pay for the the academic research that she can do for free at her local library, the video editing software that she already has and the video camera that she, also, already has. Nowhere in her Kickstarter page did she mention making a profit.

Matt_LRR:
You realize that York is among the top-rated universities in of Canada, right?

She only has a master's. That's not much.

Matt_LRR:
People GAVE her 160 grand. She asked for SIX.

And because people gave her 160 grand it's somehow OK for her to keep it all? If she only needed six grand she should have either donated the money to charity or give it back to the people who donated.

Matt_LRR:
Six thousand dollars is pretty inline for the creation of a video series.

On what might she spend those six grand considering she already has the equipment needed to produce said video series and, in fact, has already produced numerous videos on this subject.

Matt_LRR:
Funny enough, people liked the idea, and decided they wanted to pledge more support than that.

I'm not surprised considering just how much she lied.

Matt_LRR:
Fucking supply and demand, man. Demand is apparent, and consumers evendently value the project far beyond the $6000 she asked for.

Oh so she's running a business now?

Matt_LRR:
1. An appeal to authority is not a fallacy when the authority being referenced is speaking in their feild of expertise and their claim is non-controversial to other authorities in the same field.

Women in video games is not her field of expertise.

Matt_LRR:
2. It's not an appeal to authority to point out that someone is credentialed in a field when you call into question whether or not they're credentialed in that field.

I din't call her credentials into question, she did.

Perhaps she wants a better camera or better software. Perhaps she wants to rent an actual studio space. Perhaps she wants better lighting. Perhaps she wants to do actual interviews or pay for costly academic materials. There are a thousand things she could be spending the money on.

But more to the point, you don't actually look at many Kickstarters, do you? Very few of them detail what they will be spending the money on so specifically. In fact, it is assumed that at least PART of it is going to be spent on basic living expenses while working on the project. You are holding her to standards that exceptionally few kickstarters are held to. Why? Gee, I wonder.

ThrobbingEgo:

You're referring to the Japanese advertisement campaign for Bayonetta? Watch the video again without the rage. She didn't say the ad campaign caused people to grope women. She said this was alarming in context as an advertisement presented in a Japanese subway. That's like saying, "Thumbs up, molesters. Take a card."

The ad can't force anyone to do anything, but she has solid reasons to criticize it.

Go ahead and report me. I don't really care.

Allow me to quote the VERY last thing she said in that video. Just listen to THAT cause there is the logical leap that you should be worried about.

While there is action being taken to try and curb this behavior such as the woman only passenger cars and the public service annoucements, right next door is this Bayonneta ad that is encouraging this predatory behavior

Just read that and tell me you don't see that logical leap she puts in at the end of the video.

DrVornoff:

ad5x5:
Not saying physical appearance is the entirety of characterisation, but it does help.

Physical appearance is not characterization at all. It might tell you something about the character. But it isn't characterization. Characterization is how they feel about things. Batman's dead parents don't give him character. How he feels about that does.

And quite a lot of people agree with you, however some african tribes view having a long neck as an attractive thing so they wear rings round their neck to stretch them. Can't say I'd be moving heaven and earth for someone with a foot-long neck. /hyperbole

But suppose you set a game in such a setting where that was normal. Can we no longer empathize with a relationship between a male and female protagonist because of that aesthetic?

This is why female characters will be within the cultural norms, possibly with desirable physical characteristics emphasised. Some small and slight, others lithe and tall.
There won't be any that are too far from the accepted boundaries of attractiveness for a society.

If there characters are written well enough, it shouldn't matter. Most of my issues with gaming go back to, "We need better writing!"

Physical appearance can be characterization - being fat indicating gluttony/laziness, scars indicating a predisposition/history to violence, jutting jaw indicating masculinity, hunched shoulders indicating introversion, etc

Agreed, if the characters are well written enough they will still be relatable. Look at Heavy Rain - I don't have kids, but did identify with Ethan.
However, the game has to appeal to people and keeping it closer to the mainstream increases the likely audience - making it less of a business risk.

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