The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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Tenmar:

ThrobbingEgo:

In context that's not a logical 'leap.' The advertisement is encouraging passersby to strip a representation of a woman, on a subway, where thousands of women a year get harassed or molested. She points out that there is action taken to attempt to curb this behavior, and this ad directly runs counter to it.

Note: encouragement. Not "instruction," "compulsion," or "heartfelt endorsement."

So then by logic then all the people who state video games cause violence and whenever I see a violent ad for a movie, video game, or novel would encourage me a person walking down the street to cause a random act of violence upon another person.

Sure, if you ignore context. The problem is you're thinking in the black and white dichotomy of "hypodermic needle" or no effect at all. (Personally, I'd support the right of free speech (even speech I disapprove of and criticize) even if it had such power.)

What you can't ignore is that the ad is located in a subway train where molestation occurs. The ad encourages such behavior with a nude girl, in that location, which you can strip. It's not that the content or the audience's participation will make people decide that they should start stripping real women. It's that the ad is part of a culture that implicitly tells customers that molesting people is something that is approved, normal, and welcome.

Another thing to keep in mind: The difference between a work of fiction and an ad is that an ad always IS trying to encourage you to do something.

Hope that clears things up.

DrVornoff:
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought you said earlier that you don't like her videos. If I confused someone else, you could just correct me. No need to get hostile.

I thought you were referring to her Tropes vs Women project. I have nothing against someone creating a video series based on that general idea but I dislike the way the project has been handled up until now.

I don't particular like her videos, mainly because she exagerates, engages in pseudo-intellectualism etc. Watch her bayonetta "review", I posted it here a couple of pages back.

DrVornoff:
Sheesh, you used to be cool...

I haven't slept since my cat got spayed which was Monday evening I think.

DrVornoff:
She said she's going to use the windfall to make a full scholarly project. And please, call me Doc.

That's not what I read.

DrVornoff:
So none then? Pity.

I eat meat.

PercyBoleyn:

JerrytheBullfrog:
They're less damaging, sure, because men have the institutional power

How does that work exactly? I'm less inclined to care about the unreasonable high standards the media has set about my looks because I rule the world from my one bedroom appartment? Newsflash: Men aren't a hivemind. We were treated just as bad throughout history as women.

JerrytheBullfrog:
but they absolutely exist, and *should be examined*. I would absolutely fund a Kickstarter that aimed to examine and dissect harmful male tropes like "All Men are Killers" or "Disposable Man" in games, provided it was a complement to this and not trying to argue her down.

CRITICISM IS BAD BECAUSE EVERY CRITIC IS A TROLL GAWDAMNIT KOTAKU SAYS SO.

JerrytheBullfrog:
But these tropes are also a reaction to sexist ideas of women. They can't exist in a vacuum.

Then make yourself a kickstarter and have fun arguing for masculism whilst holding a fundamentalist feminism point of view.

I'm done arguing with your strawmen re: it being a scam of any sort, but

"We were treated just as bad throughout history as women."

Are you serious? are you actually serious? Holy shit I cannot comprehend ignorance of this magnitude.

(And btw, criticism of her actual points, which we haven't seen yet, is totally legit. Making a video about BAWW POOR MEN LOOK AT HOW DISADVANTAGED WE ARE IN OUR VIDEOGAME PORTRAYALS, THAT FEMINIST BITCH DOESNT KNOW WHAT SHE'S TALKING ABOUT is not.)

If I had any talent for video editing or thought I'd be presentable in front of a camera, I absolutely would :) I think it's an important conversation to have as men, from a feminist perspective, which all men should fucking be because it's just decent.

But anyway, I'm done with you. I don't have the energy to waste on moving ignorant mountains.

So, uh, not going to mention that it has well over $150k to do something that she's already been doing for no money whatsoever? Something that she obviously already has the equipment and tools for? Well okay then Bob, suit yourself.

PercyBoleyn:
I don't particular like her videos, mainly because she exagerates, engages in pseudo-intellectualism etc. Watch her bayonetta "review", I posted it here a couple of pages back.

I've seen some of her videos. Agree on a few points, disagree on others. I think she tends to overreach her points too much. Hardly anything though that justifies the bizarre intensity of the overreaction against her by so many people.

That's not what I read.

What did you read?

I eat meat.

So do I. What does that have to do with reading things you may or may not agree with?

ThrobbingEgo:

Sure, if you ignore context. The problem is you're thinking in the black and white dichotomy of "hypodermic needle" or no effect at all. (Personally, I'd support the right of free speech (even speech I disapprove of and criticize) even if it had such power.)

What you can't ignore is that the ad is located in a subway train where molestation occurs. The ad encourages such behavior with a nude girl, in that location, which you can strip. It's not that the content or the audience's participation will make people decide that they should start stripping real women. It's that the ad is part of a culture that implicitly tells customers that molesting people is something that is approved, normal, and welcome.

Another thing to keep in mind: The difference between a work of fiction and an ad is that an ad always IS trying to encourage you to do something.

Hope that clears things up.

Here is the problem I have with your argument. You are honestly saying that adults like yourself and I are just so weakminded that simply given the situation of seeing an ad like the movie "The Town" at my local bank has so much power over people that we are going to be encouraged to rob the bank.

I see an ad for scream while walking the city streets of LA and suddenly I am encouraged to kidnap someone and torture and murder them.

Do you really and honestly think people are so weakminded to let an ad control their actions as the SOLE reason upon their actions compared to more important factors like how each person was raised by their parents, their social interactions with men and women growing up, their work environment? One of the problems is that you say that people have NO control of their will once they are encouraged by advertisements. Might as well go buy some Wheat Things and interject myself into conversations cause Alex Trebek does it.

The other problem is that you are saying and she is saying that the Japanese culture actually finds molestation, groping and rape acceptable. I'm sorry but last I checked those are still crimes in that country and people get arrested. So how is it that while there is a clear cut LAW that forbids such acts that puts people in jail it is culturally acceptable. If the acts of molestation in trains was acceptable wouldn't that mean there wouldn't be a law against it? Are you honestly saying that what a minority does is culturally acceptable compared to the majority and governments that actually enforce the law and go out of their way to make a system like women only trains? I'm sorry but that argument falls apart right there. I don't see any group here trying to change the law in Japan to make molestation legal, do you? Cause until I see in Japan or in the USA that the law states that it is perfectly legal to molest women in trains it is NOT going to be cultural standard of that country.

My problem with the proposal to make this video is this: There's already such a heavy force against poor portrayal of females in video games that yet another video about it is just pointless. The fact that she has made a lot of videos like this already (which are free) and now expects to be paid using costs that she fabricated from no where is only one of many reasons I feel generally disgruntled about the affair. I'll admit I'm part of the school of thought that men have their disadvantages in video games as well (which, in yet another feminist video, they're portrayed as the bad guys in this exploitative relationship), but I also believe that there are other groups that face extremely negative stereotypes in video games. The idea that she, like the rest of the swarm of self-righteous feminists (which continue to exist in sociology, my main academic field which ironically pushes the idea of equality), pushes the "flight of the female" without considerations of male problems as well as other problems. In terms of race problems, I can name pretty much the same amount of female protagonists as black protagonists, Far Eastern Asians are incredibly rarely protagonists, usually end up being sour characters who are antagonists and are usually stereotyped as knowing martial arts always and I can't name a single Middle Eastern character that has really been portrayed in a positive light. Not to mention there are sexuality problems where excluding characters that give you the choice of sexuality, I can name only one game that gives people with an alternative sexuality a positive image: Persona 4. Every other game, not only sexuality but transsexuality, is usually treated as either absolutely not mattering in any sense (where the character's sexuality is less of part of who he is and rather just more like a badge sown onto his backpack) or as comic relief by exaggeration.

That's what gets to me. If people want to fight for equality, I support them. I love it when I'm able to play or witness a female character who is genuinely interesting and strong. I've happily played female characters over male characters because the strength in them is more interesting rather than what feels like another trudge of "me man win combat". A case in point is Mount & Blade: Warband. I willingly play a female character who has to combat sexism in her direction by showing she's not only a soldier but also a leader worthy of not only owning her own land but also creating a kingdom. It's amazing to enjoy it. However, and this is something that happens academically in sociology, feminists over-state their plight over everyone else's plight. It's annoying and it's selfish to fight for your own rights and not for the equal rights of everyone. Not to mention, the fact she wants to make a Kickstarter disguised as a "I need money to make this program happen", when considering her history of making the program already shows she's just looking to be paid for her work via Kickstarter rather than say DVD sales is just downright pathetic. As harsh as it sounds, she seems like another Glenn Beck-esque individual, bantering and complaining just to make money rather than for any real purpose.

Edit: Add to that, the irony of feminism is they can be at times incredibly sexist but yet still taken seriously academically is revolting. Keep in mind, this is the same academic (that's the key word) area that would pretty much crucify you if you uttered a racist, homophobic or sexist-towards-female remark.

Meh, I'm fine with the project. The discourse around it has clearly devolved into cries of 'sexist!' and 'feminazi!' however. I certainly don't care for Sarkeesian's work, I feel it's poorly analyzed and researched (she also seems to deliberately fail to contextualize examples to support her agenda as well). But I'm all for the idea of fan-backed content, and since her last update confirmed that the funds are going to her continued production of videos through full-time employment (which I see as consistent with the idea of 'investing' in projects) I see no problem.

That being said, just because I support her project existing, doesn't mean I won't criticize the shit out of the actual content of the videos.

big boob panty ninja is the breast best line of this video

PercyBoleyn:

JerrytheBullfrog:
You are factually wrong.

No idea what part of my comment you're addressing. However, considering she's basically stating that she's going to take the money and use it as a salary for her and her "team" my predictions were correct.

Fine, I'll waste one more post on you.

At her not telling us what the money is used for. Let's go back to the beginning, shall we?

From the initial post.

Creating these videos take a lot of time and money to produce. I will be researching and playing hundreds of titles from across the gaming industry (including some truly awful games that I wouldn't wish upon anyone!). Your support will go towards production costs, equipment, games and downloadable content.

What this money is being used for - check.

Update #1:

Since the funding has happened faster then I could have imagined and there seems to be an enormous amount of interest, here's what I'm going to do, for every $1,500 dollars I raise above my goal I'll do another one of the trope videos on my extended list. Some of these additional tropes are a bit more complicated and will require some more time and finesse to explain clearly. Check out the new tropes and goals below:

Yep, what the money is being used for.

Update #2:

$20,000 - Let's bump up the production quality!
I did factor in some minor tech upgrades and improvements into my original goals but with so much excitement around and attention on this video series I'd like to really bump up the quality and the professionalism as much as I can. It may not seem like it but FemFreq videos have been a little bit of a fly by night operation up until this point where the equipment is concerned. I've tried to use all the DYI tools and tricks out there to push my cheaper end equipment to get the best quality possible. With more funding I'll be able to increase the professionalism and quality of FemFreq productions for this series and future videos.

Some of the upgrades I'd like to invest in are: a wireless lavallière microphone (which will vastly improve the audio quality), a better studio lighting kit (so I will look less orange), a current generation editing computer/system, harddrives with expanded storage capacity (HD video takes up a lot of bytes), and I would also like to integrate some small After Effects animations to make the videos even more engaging. Achieving this stretch goal will help make this series even more awesome.

If we reach this production quality stretch goal, I will do another update with details on a few more ways that we can expand the Tropes vs Women in Video Games series including the possibility of creating a curriculum for teachers to use in classrooms.

Wow! That's a lot of telling people what this money is being used for!

Update #3:

$24,000 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games Curriculum
I believe that video games and gaming in general should be integrated into classrooms and educational institutions to a much larger degree. With this in mind, I will create a curriculum with teaching guides and classroom activities to accompany this Tropes vs Women in Gaming video series. My hope is that this curriculum can serve as a small example of how discussions around gaming can be an important part of media literacy education. These mini-lesson plans and classroom exercises focusing on female representations in video games will offer teachers an easy way to encourage critical thinking, enhance media literacy skills and promote conversations about gender representations in the mass media with their students. This curriculum will be Creative Commons licensed making it available for anyone to download and use with their schools, organizations or families.

$26,000 - Bonus Video #2 - The Top 10 Most Common Defenses of Sexism in Games (and how to respond)

Creating a classroom curriculum? That almost sounds like she's going to be using the money for that!

The next three updates are all about the controversy and backlash, and response to that.

Update #7: (for backers only, it turns out)

But in between all that we've been discussing some exciting ideas for how to use the additional funds to expand the project in a really meaningful way. My team and I are going to take a few days to process everything that's happened and figure out exactly what the extended scope of this project will be.

The team is still discussing how to use a good portion of the new funds. Well, that's not a SPECIFIC, so--

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to work off the assumption that this type of backlash is going to continue throughout the project as I release each video in the series so with that in mind, I'm going to use some of the extra funds to beef up my online infrastructure by completely rebuilding and redesigning the Feminist Frequency website with security in mind.

Ah, there we go. Spending money to redo the site and beef up its security to protect against the backlash.

So here, we see that

1.) She has actually explained what the money will be going towards up to the point she planned for,

2.) She is trying to figure out what to do with all the money since it wildly exceeded her stretch goals, but they're speaking with backers for ideas,

3.) You clearly didn't actually look into this at all, did you? This was all right there on the goddamn Kickstarter page.

Imp Emissary:

PunkRex:
Once again I find myself kind of torn, both sides seem to be JUST as loud and obnoxious as each other. Its like the way both sides of the Mass Effect ending just completely ignored or looked down on the other side while the few actually making a good bloody argument were overshadowed.

Some people are dicks, im not surprised some reacted like they did, their dicks, but why so many have a problem with a women who does this sort of media study just looking at tropes in games, WHICH ARE THERE, seems so pathetic. However, why she needs SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much bloody money dispite the resources she already has seems greedy, people do this sort of thing every day for free afterall...

PunkRex, meet Blade 125. He has what I believe is a good conversation on if (I don't remember her name, but none of us are using our real names.....I hope. So lets call her...) Mrs.Tropes should or shouldn't get the donated money. So it's not just you guys talking, I'll say that I think that we should wait and see what she does with what's left after the videos are done. Then we can judge her by her actions. Ex. Well she A.Use all the money for the videos making them way to high quality to just be a Youtube video(no offence Youtube) B. Donate the money to a worthy&related issue. Or C. Buy a new CAR!
I am guessing B, but we will see.

Funny enough, shortly after posting I said to myself "Why am I bothered what OTHERS do with their money?". If shes honest it could be a very interesting look on gaming and if not... well im sure SOMEONE on the internet will give her what she deserves... somebody... im not gonna say who. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if folks give her money but what she does with it, personally I would coincider paying her for her work IF I got a sort of demo/sneak peek. I love a good discussion/debate between people proberly alot smarter then me but as I have no experience with her past work im unsure if it would be worth my time.

As you said, lets wait and see if she sucks.

Matt_LRR:
Uh, the average videography contract with a publisher pays better than that.

Maybe she should have considered a publisher then.

Matt_LRR:
Yeah, actually, they were. Producing video content takes time. Time spent doing something for free is time spent not making money on something.

I'm sorry, I must've boarded the wrong plane. Since when did her pet project turn into a business?

Matt_LRR:
If you want to devote a substantial amount of time to a project, you need to be able to finance other aspects of your life as well.

She was perfectly capable of doing that without crowd funding. Many people were actually. In fact, there are numerous video series on YouTube regarding a large number of subjects, all for free.

Matt_LRR:
If she decided this was a project she wanted to do, and valued out her time to make it and came to the conclusion that between production cost and lost earnings from, it will take about 6000$ to produce this series while continuing to eat and pay rent, that's what the series costs to produce.

She didn't seem to hit that little snag with her previous 33 videos and numerous posts on her blog.

Matt_LRR:
This is exactly how music labels and book publishers work, except that the cash forward is being crowd sourced rather than fronted by a single corporation. Labels and publishers give creators money to cover their costs of living and production expenses while they create, because the time spent creating is time that the creator isn't making money.

Poor thing must've lost a fortune. Quick, setup a Kickstarter to pay her back for all the videos she's done for free until now. She might starve!

Matt_LRR:
This is not a new business model. Literally the only difference is that the public is funding the cash advance rather than a publishing company, and the revenues end up in the hands of the creator. That's not a scam. That's democratization of content creation.

I do remember that model working a little bit differently. Firstly, it's a for profit venture. Secondly, the writer has to pay back the advance. Anita's series is not for profit and the donors are not likely to see a return on their investement because they didn't invest. It's a very different model and you can't exactly compare it to the relationship between publisher and writer.

Matt_LRR:
Her grasp of feminist theory is actually pretty sound.
Shes not even terribly radical in her positions.
Past Tropes vs. Women videos have pretyy straightforwardly identified sexual stereotypes in media, and her positions on those stereotypes are not at all controversial to anyone with half a grasp of the fundamentals.

You didn't watch her videos.

Matt_LRR:
I'm not actually crazy about the quality of her product, but she's not wrong.

She is wrong actually. Not on every level but she gets numerous things wrong.

Matt_LRR:
So here's a question for you: how do you expect content creators to continue to live while also creating content? As a content creator, this question interests me. Is our time just magically infinte and free?

The same way she's lived up until making her Kickstarter project. Your situation and her's are not comparable.

Matt_LRR:
Oh yeah, what's six years of higher eduacation at a high-rated school and a research thesis really?

Two years.

Matt_LRR:
YES. the fact that she was over-funded was never an unknown quantity. The level of funding is presented right there on the donation page. People gave her money knowing FULL WELL that she had more than she needed. That money is now HERS.

Well I'm sorry but that's not how it works. She entered into a contract with her donors. That money isn't hers to do however she wishes, it's still the donors. They paid her for a product and she's probably going to end up pocketing a part of that money, even though nowhere did she state she would use part of the funds for personal means.

Matt_LRR:
As long a the video series gets made in line with the production goals she set and published on her kickstarter page, thereby honoring her obligations to her backers, that money can go any and everywhere, including up her nose if that's what she wants.

Okay, so we've gone from trying to justify her using the cash for personal gain to acknowledging that she's going to do so. That's a good thing.

Matt_LRR:
Again. This is identical to the music and publication industries. The only difference is that the money was raised from individual investors, not from a corporate entitiy.

It's not.

Matt_LRR:
Name ONE.

Matt_LRR:
Whethershe does this as a non-profit venture, or turns a profit on residuals, or uses the money to live off while she makes the series with equipment she already has access to doesn't matter. As long as she delivers the project she has promised, she has engaged in no deception or lapse of ethics.

Well, actually, yes she has. I'd find it quite dishonest if the money people thought would contribute towards a series of videos is instead pocketted by her, especially since she didn't make it clear that it would happen.

Matt_LRR:
Women in media is.

No I don't think so she hasn't shown herself to be particularly knowledgeable on the subject of women in the media.

Matt_LRR:
Uh huh.

I'm not the one who embarassed myself on camera by attempting to critique a female charater in a video game without knowing anything about the character or the video game. She digged her own grave, i'm just calling her on it.

Riobux:
Edit: Add to that, the irony of feminism is they can be at times incredibly sexist but yet still taken seriously academically is revolting. Keep in mind, this is the same academic (that's the key word) area that would pretty much crucify you if you uttered a racist, homophobic or sexist-towards-female remark.

I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to discover that there are still ivory tower polemics in academia! This is the fifth monocle this week I've lost due to the sheer volume of such discomfiting revelations.

I'm suddenly reminded of that scene in "Friends". You know, the one where Rachel picks the hot male secretary instead of the qualified woman. With that illustration I'd like to point out that women are just as likely to pick employees based on superficial qualities as men are. And, although I agree with Bob that women don't often find themselves in those leadership positions, the ones who do can be just as amoral as men.
And when we find ourselves in a society in which both sexes have equal opportunities, women will have become emancipated at the cost of their image as the humble sex. The biases in employment will exist to the same degree; they just won't be gender specific anymore. I think that to solve the job issue we need to become more tolerant as society as a whole, should we want to see any discernible change in that scenario.

Tenmar:

ThrobbingEgo:

Sure, if you ignore context. The problem is you're thinking in the black and white dichotomy of "hypodermic needle" or no effect at all. (Personally, I'd support the right of free speech (even speech I disapprove of and criticize) even if it had such power.)

What you can't ignore is that the ad is located in a subway train where molestation occurs. The ad encourages such behavior with a nude girl, in that location, which you can strip. It's not that the content or the audience's participation will make people decide that they should start stripping real women. It's that the ad is part of a culture that implicitly tells customers that molesting people is something that is approved, normal, and welcome.

Another thing to keep in mind: The difference between a work of fiction and an ad is that an ad always IS trying to encourage you to do something.

Hope that clears things up.

Here is the problem I have with your argument. You are honestly saying that adults like yourself and I are just so weakminded that simply given the situation of seeing an ad like the movie "The Town" at my local bank has so much power over people that we are going to be encouraged to rob the bank.

I see an ad for scream while walking the city streets of LA and suddenly I am encouraged to kidnap someone and torture and murder them.

Do you really and honestly think people are so weakminded to let an ad control their actions as the SOLE reason upon their actions compared to more important factors like how each person was raised by their parents, their social interactions with men and women growing up, their work environment? One of the problems is that you say that people have NO control of their will once they are encouraged by advertisements. Might as well go buy some Wheat Things and interject myself into conversations cause Alex Trebek does it.

The other problem is that you are saying and she is saying that the Japanese culture actually finds molestation, groping and rape acceptable. I'm sorry but last I checked those are still crimes in that country and people get arrested. So how is it that while there is a clear cut LAW that forbids such acts that puts people in jail it is culturally acceptable. If the acts of molestation in trains was acceptable wouldn't that mean there wouldn't be a law against it? Are you honestly saying that what a minority does is culturally acceptable compared to the majority and governments that actually enforce the law and go out of their way to make a system like women only trains? I'm sorry but that argument falls apart right there. I don't see any group here trying to change the law in Japan to make molestation legal, do you? Cause until I see in Japan or in the USA that the law states that it is perfectly legal to molest women in trains it is NOT going to be cultural standard of that country.

Again, that's not my argument. I'm not arguing that people are powerless in the face of media. I'd argue that media can reinforce existing behavior by acting as part of a larger hegemony. To deny that would be to claim that all human beings are totally rational actors who only respond to the laws of the land and aren't in the least bit swayed by what other people (are represented to) think, say, or encourage.

It'd be just as absurd as the position you're trying to shoehorn me into.

JerrytheBullfrog:
Are you serious? are you actually serious? Holy shit I cannot comprehend ignorance of this magnitude.

Neither gender had it good. We were all slaves to whatever form of priviledged upper class had a sway on the particular piece of land we settled.

JerrytheBullfrog:
Making a video about BAWW POOR MEN LOOK AT HOW DISADVANTAGED WE ARE IN OUR VIDEOGAME PORTRAYALS, THAT FEMINIST BITCH DOESNT KNOW WHAT SHE'S TALKING ABOUT is not.)

Nobody made that video. Strawman.

JerrytheBullfrog:
I think it's an important conversation to have as men, from a feminist perspective, which all men should fucking be because it's just decent.

Hey now, tunnel vision doesn't lead to equal rights. There's nothing wrong with being male and frankly, your male guilt is a bit unsettling.

JerrytheBullfrog:
But anyway, I'm done with you. I don't have the energy to waste on moving ignorant mountains.

That's to be expected, people often cower infront of new ideas.

THANK YOU MOVIE BOB. FUCK.
It blows my mind how often men will bring up that they are unrealistically portrayed in games too, and conveniently forget that their unrealistic portrayal was a power trip on their part, not some masturbation bait stuck in for someone else's benefit.

Smilomaniac:

Catrixa:

Things I said.

A sober, respectful and thoughtful reply. If Feminist Frequency had this tone instead of the accusatory one, it'd be a lot less bashed by the mindless idiots out there, a thought heavily ignored by most it seems.

Kudos to you for explaining it far simpler and giving good reasons to why abundant sexualization might not be that appealing to a female audience.

What you just said might give artists and designers a reason and ideas to implement more choices for people, who want to customize their character and not look like a total bimbo, while giving those who do want that look, the same options.
The 150.000 would be far better spent on you, rather than the upcomming onesided "Tropes" series.

Thank you! To be perfectly honest, I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about this sort of thing and, to be completely fair, am not the first to come to this conclusion (there was an article awhile back about it, can't remember where it is, though). It seems to me that the real issue everyone forgets is that it all comes down to choices: there aren't a ton of games to choose from with strong female protagonists/characters (this is usually not a huge deterrent for me, but I hear it come up a bunch), and there (sometimes--definitely only sometimes; I've seen some utterly insane customization in games before) aren't a ton of in-game choices for not looking silly.

As far as whether or not Feminist Frequency is worth $150,000: maybe if she included a whole ton of interviews with industry experts/members/analysts and actual solutions to the issue? I haven't watched any of her stuff, but I've heard she's pretty biased. I dunno, I'd love me a good $150,000, but I think it would be better spent on the same issue with the Extra Credits guys. They've got a lot of connections and really good ideas.

Besides, I'd just blow it on video games, comic books, Magic cards and maybe an art degree (seriously, $150,000 is a freaking bucket of money) so I can stop sucking at art xD.

DrVornoff:

I've seen some of her videos. Agree on a few points, disagree on others. I think she tends to overreach her points too much. Hardly anything though that justifies the bizarre intensity of the overreaction against her by so many people.

She's clueless and often doesn't playing the game/s or bother reading about the character/s she's criticizing. I fail to see how someone who treats this subject matter the way she does is qualified to make a vido series about sexism in video games.

DrVornoff:

So do I. What does that have to do with reading things you may or may not agree with?

No idea. I actually tried rare meat once, it tasted wrong.

DrVornoff:

What did you read?

"Over the past three years I've been dedicated to making Feminist Frequency videos whenever I could but its still essentially been a passionate side project between freelance jobs. This is such an exciting moment because my team and I can now commit full time to Feminist Frequency and to producing this collection of engaging, in depth and critical videos that will contribute to the ongoing conversation about women's representations in video games."

This an excerpt from one of her blog posts or whatever. Anyways she's paying for her living expenses using the money she received to use on the videos.

LazyAza:
The thing most anti-feminism arguments always gloss over as far as I can tell isn't that women don't want big boobed male appealing media to exist and they don't want to take it away, all they want is more balance, more options, more diversity.

You're right, but there are quite a few faulty arguments on both sides.

The biggest thing these feminist arguments gloss over is that we live in a free-market society. If there's someone willing to buy the product then someone will make it. You can't just blame the supply-side of the industry, the demand side is equally culpable, if not more so. It may be the case that many of the developers are chauvinist meat-heads and are biased in what they create. But it only takes one break-away game that appeals to the female audience in order for producers to see there's money in it and then hire less meat-headed developers to capitalize on this fact. People are kidding themselves if they think the people heading up EA give a crap about promoting a male chauvinist agenda. All they care about is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

There is no point in people protesting and writing in letters that they want more games (or what-have-you) geared towards them if there isn't enough of a market for those games. The fact of the matter is that the greasy sex-obsessed teenage boys make up a significant amount of the market, which is why the industry panders to them. And I hate to say it, but the free-market is pretty much amoral. Blaming the economic system for a social problem isn't going to get you anywhere. Overall a (properly regulated and trust-free) capitalist system is a tremendous source of good. The real problem with America isn't capitalism (which is only an economic system): it's consumerism (which is a destructive value system).

(Well, that and our politicians are corrupt and thus the government does not regulate the system enough to prevent trusts from forming. But one could argue that the spread of consumerism has amplified this indirectly in that it has eroded the intelligence and values of the American public to the point that they are easily manipulated by the aforementioned corrupt politicians and their superpacs. But that's a story for another time.)

SLIGHTLY MORE OT:

I'm sick of hearing these tirades from people like Bob. It isn't because I disagree. Video games are CLEARLY sexist, and it isn't the same for men as it is for women.

I'm sick of hearing it because all it is is a bunch of whinny complaining that offers no tangible solution. These people like to make these videos because they're addicted to the feeling of righteous indignation and the implicit feeling of moral superiority that accompanies it. They don't really even care about a solution, all they want to do is complain so they can hear themselves speak. Their proposed answers are always something wishy-washy like "we need to keep spreading the word and enlighten people". In other words: "WE NEEDZ TO COMPLANEZ MORRRRRR!" Ugh.

While it may be true that people like Bob do not want to take away the sexist crap and just want more products geared towards women, I'm afraid that's exactly what these companies will perceive them as saying when most of what they do is complain about the sexist crap. They need to stop focusing on complaints and pointing out instances of what not to do, and start telling producers what they should be doing.

Here's an idea: perhaps effort would be better spent on getting out a positive message that it's okay for girls to play video games. Maybe then there will be enough of a female demographic to counteract the sexism. Many women don't play games because they perceive it as a male activity. Granted, the tremendous amount of sexist crap made to appeal to teenage boys doesn't help this, but you'll never be able to limit this crap; there's just too much of a demand for it. (Best of luck trying to get horny teenage boys to stop objectifying women, LOL!)

Instead of complaining about the sexist crap, I think feminist-inclined gamers would be better off if they petitioned theses companies for a game that appeals to women. When you start off by complaining about a company's products you'll immediately put the company on the defensive, which is not a very good way to get what you want. If enough people wrote in they might actually realize that there's more than just one demographic. I don't know what the percentages are, but if there really are enough women who take offense at this stuff and want more games geared towards them then companies will start making games for them when they come to realize this.

How about instead of making a video pointing out all of the sexist tropes in games, this woman sets up a website and invites all female gamers to send in what they want to see in games? Maybe this website can have a lively forum for female gamers to exchange ideas. Maybe they can even establish a Female Gamer Manifesto and send it out to developers and producers, challenging them to make a game that accomplishes the things they have laid out.

But no, people will just keep on complaining because it's easier.

ThrobbingEgo:

Again, that's not my argument. I'm not arguing that people are powerless in the face of media. I'd argue that media can reinforce existing behavior by acting as part of a larger hegemony. To deny that would be to claim that all human beings are totally rational actors who only respond to the laws of the land and aren't in the least bit swayed by what other people (are represented to) think, say, or encourage.

It'd be just as absurd as the position you're trying to shoehorn me into.

Except that is the problem with your argument. You are saying that media reinforces existing behavior. So by that logic violence in video games will cause people to be violent who were already violent...oh wait see the problem?

Your entire argument is built upon the other factors that I have mentioned and not the actual advertisements or media exposure. If anything you are saying those are the triggers or spark that cause that tipping point to which people who have been involved with organizations like the ECA when it comes to going up against the canard "people become violent by playing video games" that it actually took the SUPREME COURT to actually rule in our favor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Entertainment_Merchants_Association

NOTE: This entire legal proceeding was under Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger but the real spearhead of this case was bought upon by State Senator Leeland Yee. Not trying to be partisan here just wanna state the actual person responsible.

Having an ad in the subway is never actually going to be the trigger for a person to actually molest a woman or rob a bank or commit an act of violence. Nor is the environment they actually see the ad. The problem will always be upon each individual and their own personal background and social interactions and their own personal beliefs which often stems from their parents, friends, co-workers and other social activities they take part in. It isn't the media or marketing that is ever going to be that spark cause if it was then Leeland Yee would of won the case and we would be in a very different world of video games and censorship.

The Japanese culture clearly does not encourage molestation as it has a law against it so clear as a culture they aren't being taught actively that molestation is acceptable.

ReiverCorrupter:
The biggest thing these feminist arguments gloss over is that we live in a free-market society.

Oh yeah. The Free Market never does anything wrong. Corporations always act in the best interests of their customers. What the public wants is always right.

(It's not like there has ever been public supported racism or genocide anywhere, ever.)

Ah, I needed a good laugh.

---

Also she can criticize limiting portrayals of women AND provide other outlets for change. Or not. It's her call. I liked her pitch and previous work enough to back her project. If you don't like it, well, that's another victory of the free market.

PercyBoleyn:
She's clueless and often doesn't playing the game/s or bother reading about the character/s she's criticizing. I fail to see how someone who treats this subject matter the way she does is qualified to make a vido series about sexism in video games.

It's a Kickstarter. It's their money. I can't really be fucked to care.

"Over the past three years I've been dedicated to making Feminist Frequency videos whenever I could but its still essentially been a passionate side project between freelance jobs. This is such an exciting moment because my team and I can now commit full time to Feminist Frequency and to producing this collection of engaging, in depth and critical videos that will contribute to the ongoing conversation about women's representations in video games."

This an excerpt from one of her blog posts or whatever. Anyways she's paying for her living expenses using the money she received to use on the videos.

If she uses this as start-up funds to monetize her site, then whoop-dee-doo. It's still not worth being offended. If this offends someone who has pledged, they can ask for a refund. You can do that.

JerrytheBullfrog:
What this money is being used for - check.

Production on her video series has already started. When will she find the time to properly play and research those hundreds of titles?

JerrytheBullfrog:
Yep, what the money is being used for.

The donations are not there to pay her a salary. She could have easily done those videos without needing more money. However, she felt the need to ask for more because maintaining a camcorder costs thousands or something.

JerrytheBullfrog:
Wow! That's a lot of telling people what this money is being used for

I still fail to see why she would need more than 20k to upgrade her equipment. She's not exactly making a movie here. I mean, by the looks of it, this is tops 3 thousand dollars unless...

JerrytheBullfrog:
Creating a classroom curriculum? That almost sounds like she's going to be using the money for that!

She needs 24k to create an optional classroom curriculum that will probably never be used?

JerrytheBullfrog:
The team is still discussing how to use a good portion of the new funds. Well, that's not a SPECIFIC, so--

""Over the past three years I've been dedicated to making Feminist Frequency videos whenever I could but its still essentially been a passionate side project between freelance jobs. This is such an exciting moment because my team and I can now commit full time to Feminist Frequency and to producing this collection of engaging, in depth and critical videos that will contribute to the ongoing conversation about women's representations in video games."

Yeah she's totally clueless on what to do with the money.

JerrytheBullfrog:
Ah, there we go. Spending money to redo the site and beef up its security to protect against the backlash.

Do you even know anything about how websites work?

JerrytheBullfrog:
She has actually explained what the money will be going towards up to the point she planned for,

nope.

JerrytheBullfrog:
She is trying to figure out what to do with all the money since it wildly exceeded her stretch goals, but they're speaking with backers for ideas,,

They're speaking with backers for ideas? Where? When? I want to see. Also, what team? Who's part of that team? How much are they getting paid? Are the donors also paying for her teams living expenses? Besides the living expenses, is she also giving herself and her team a salary? How much of that money will truly go towards the actual project?

JerrytheBullfrog:
You clearly didn't actually look into this at all, did you? This was all right there on the goddamn Kickstarter page.

I did read and, as I've pointed out, it's bullshit.

DrVornoff:

Riobux:
Edit: Add to that, the irony of feminism is they can be at times incredibly sexist but yet still taken seriously academically is revolting. Keep in mind, this is the same academic (that's the key word) area that would pretty much crucify you if you uttered a racist, homophobic or sexist-towards-female remark.

I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to discover that there are still ivory tower polemics in academia! This is the fifth monocle this week I've lost due to the sheer volume of such discomfiting revelations.

Indeed *adjusts new, plastic monocle*, quite.

DrVornoff:
It's a Kickstarter. It's their money. I can't really be fucked to care.

I'm not particularly fond of people scamming others for money.

DrVornoff:
If she uses this as start-up funds to monetize her site, then whoop-dee-doo. It's still not worth being offended. If this offends someone who has pledged, they can ask for a refund. You can do that.

The project is already funded. No you can't.

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

She only asked for $6000, but people still felt she deserved their money. Everyone who donated knew how much had already been given to her, but chose to donate anyway. Lord knows what she will do with all of it - I imagine she'll end up giving most away to charity or some such. It doesn't really matter though, does it?

PercyBoleyn:
The project is already funded. No you can't.

Caveat emptor then.

Tenmar: I could continue arguing with you but, I'd wind up CTRL+C CTRL+Ving my previous arguments too. If you didn't persuade me that media effects theory and hegemony criticism were the same thing the first time, you're not going to persuade me or anyone else who actually studied communications theory the thousandth time.

Keep it real.

PercyBoleyn:
Maybe she should have considered a publisher then.

Or, considering she was trying to fund a small project to host on her own website, maybe she should have used a crowd-sourcing system like kist-OH WAIT.

PercyBoleyn:
I'm sorry, I must've boarded the wrong plane. Since when did her pet project turn into a business?

Why are you so hung up on this "business" point. She is trying to create a project. Projects cost time and money to make. Projects are also sometimes profitable to the person who undertakes it.

SO WHAT?

PercyBoleyn:
She was perfectly capable of doing that without crowd funding. Many people were actually. In fact, there are numerous video series on YouTube regarding a large number of subjects, all for free.

Maybe she could have - but so what? There are systems (like kickstarter) that exist for the sole purpose of allowing people to generate funding for projects they want to create. Apparently people were more than willing to pay her to make it. Why shouldn't she make use of that?

PercyBoleyn:
She didn't seem to hit that little snag with her previous 33 videos and numerous posts on her blog.

Again: So what?

PercyBoleyn:
Poor thing must've lost a fortune. Quick, setup a Kickstarter to pay her back for all the videos she's done for free until now. She might starve!

This isn't an argument against making money on it now. I did LoadingReadyRun for five years for free before we got picked up by The Escapist. Now I make money on it. If the Escapist hadn't picked us up, i'd still have done it for free, but given the option between doing it for free, and doing it for a paycheque, I'll take the paycheque.

PercyBoleyn:
I do remember that model working a little bit differently. Firstly, it's a for profit venture. Secondly, the writer has to pay back the advance. Anita's series is not for profit and the donors are not likely to see a return on their investement because they didn't invest. It's a very different model and you can't exactly compare it to the relationship between publisher and writer.

No, you pretty much can. the difference is in the terms of the agreement, not the structure of it.

PercyBoleyn:
You didn't watch her videos.

Actually I did. I'm not sure you actually know the difference between what might be cast as "radical feminist ideas" and the generally non-controversial ground covered by FF.

PercyBoleyn:
She is wrong actually. Not on every level but she gets numerous things wrong.

Her feminist arguments aren't wrong, they sit pretty much in line with accepted feminist theory.

PercyBoleyn:
The same way she's lived up until making her Kickstarter project. Your situation and her's are not comparable.

Bullshit they're not. I work a full tuime job because my work with LRR pays a little, but not enough to actually live off of. If I had a series idea, with sufficient interest and financial backing to support undertaking it, I'd drop my day job like a sack of rocks.

PercyBoleyn:
Two years.

On top of four years undergraduate study.

PercyBoleyn:
She entered into a contract with her donors. That money isn't hers to do however she wishes, it's still the donors. They paid her for a product and she's probably going to end up pocketing a part of that money, even though nowhere did she state she would use part of the funds for personal means.

She entered into a contract with her donors to produce a video series with a clearly identified set of deliverables. As long as those deliverables are delivered, she's not in breech.

PercyBoleyn:
Okay, so we've gone from trying to justify her using the cash for personal gain to acknowledging that she's going to do so. That's a good thing.

"Gone from"? From minute one, I've contended that that money is hers, and can be used however she deems fit in the course of producing this video series.

PercyBoleyn:
It's not.

Yeah it is.

PercyBoleyn:
youtube video

That is neither "lying" nor is it in any way related to deception while generating funds for this project.

PercyBoleyn:
Well, actually, yes she has. I'd find it quite dishonest if the money people thought would contribute towards a series of videos is instead pocketted by her, especially since she didn't make it clear that it would happen.

PEOPLE DON'T LIVE FOR FREE. COSTS OF LIVING ARE PART OF THE EXPENSE OF CONTENT PRODUCTION.

PercyBoleyn:
No I don't think so she hasn't shown herself to be particularly knowledgeable on the subject of women in the media.

Except for, you know, the Master's degree she has in it. And the Published thesis she did on the topic. And the fact that she's spent yers working as a well respected writer, blogger and videographer on the subject.

Thank christ you are not grand arbiter of what qualifies as "knowlegable".

PercyBoleyn:
I'm not the one who embarassed myself on camera by attempting to critique a female charater in a video game without knowing anything about the character or the video game. She digged her own grave, i'm just calling her on it.

There's one person who's dug themselves into an embarassing hole here, and it sure as hell isn't Ms. Sarkeersian.

-m

Edit: I've wasted far to many words on you at this point. Have a great night.

ThrobbingEgo:

ReiverCorrupter:
The biggest thing these feminist arguments gloss over is that we live in a free-market society.

Oh yeah. The Free Market never does anything wrong. Corporations always act in the best interests of their customers. What the public wants is always right.

(It's not like there has ever been public supported racism or genocide anywhere, ever.)

Ah, I needed a good laugh.

---

Also she can criticize limiting portrayals of women AND provide other outlets for change. Or not. It's her call. I liked her pitch and previous work enough to back her project. If you don't like it, well, that's another victory of the free market.

You've taken what he was saying and twisted it into a bizarre absolute... that didn't even have anything to do with what he was talking about... just, wow.

DrVornoff:

LazyAza:
The thing most anti-feminism arguments always gloss over as far as I can tell isn't that women don't want big boobed male appealing media to exist and they don't want to take it away, all they want is more balance, more options, more diversity.

Behold! Someone who has actually made an effort to understand feminist theory. It's not hard, guys. You have Google.

...except that there have certainly been feminist driven "kill it with fire"-style campaigns in the past. So it's not "feminists don't want to actively destroy media that offends their ideological sensibilities" it's "feminists don't want to actively destroy quite all media that offends their ideological sensibilities." Because there have certainly been examples where "feminists attempt to actively destroy media that offends their ideological sensibilities", such as that non-explicit tentacle hentai themed card matching game or "online feminism vs Penny Arcade."

If there's one piece of feminist theory I can't understand, it's rape culture. It just seems to use underpants gnome logic, and for the life of me I can't see why it doesn't apply to any other topic, why if rape culture supposedly is a thing that "murder culture" or "auto theft culture" aren't, by following precisely the same train of thought (with presumably the same mysterious "2. ???").

Rape Culture

1. Someone makes a joke about rape, a joke that references rape, or refers to rape in literally any non-feminist approved manner.
2. ???
3. Rape is considered normal and trivial, and therefore more people rape.

if that makes sense, then why doesn't

Murder Culture

1. Someone makes a joke about killing, or a game in which countless human characters will be killed directly by the player, especially if normal civilian people.
2. ???
3. Murder is considered normal and trivial, and therefore more people murder.

Also, it amazes me that she posted the video, prewarned about the trolling, then went and poked the wasps' nest at 4chan (spam flooded her video there), and then acted as if it were an unprovoked attack on her because of her feminist opinions. There aren't a lot of things that you can poke 4chan with that don't cause exactly this, and blaming the "gaming community" as a whole for it is ridiculous.

Great video I agree with everything Movie Bob said. He's right this just is not a big of an issue for men as it is woman.

Tenmar:

ThrobbingEgo:

Tenmar:
Snip.

Okay, so you've never watched any of her videos. Cool.

Way to go in ignoring my entire post and actually yes, I have watched ALL of her videos. To be honestly I actually got sick watching them cause of the massive amounts of leaps of logic she takes and holds her own opinion over the core of the issue or factors that would actually cause say said men who grope women to actually grope women.

Last I checked making posts like this is quite reportable.

EDIT:Hell watching her Suckerpunch movie review didn't really offer me anything more than the director was pandering to male fantasy. Yet if I watched Moviebob's review I actually find out the director was the same man involved in Watchman and 300. So is this "parasite" (using HER word there) really part of the "male driven backlash against women"?(once again her words)

Also note how just NEGATIVE she is. I'm sorry but being an actual critic means actually criticizing the actual content of the work and understanding the background and portfolio of the person involved. You get NONE of that with her video and learn NOTHING as well.

Not only does she not really say anything of value in her videos, but the only entertaining thing about them is just how dense she is. Sucker Punch was a satire and after she makes a review proving that she did not get it someone posted a comment informing her that it was a satire and her response was that it failed to be a satire because she did not get it and then she blocked all further comments about it being a satire. The fact it went over her head proves that she does not pay any attention to what she is criticizing because at one point the a character yells "Stop!" and the movie stops while the character explains that this is a satire. Also look at her criticism of old Christmas songs, a song from 1951 has gender stereotyped toy suggestions, no shit it was 1951.
There are lots of problems with how society and media portray females but she has no idea what they are.

ReiverCorrupter:
The biggest thing these feminist arguments gloss over is that we live in a free-market society.

We don't really live in a 'free market' society though. A market society, yes, but not really a 'free market'. I'm not holding the free market up as utopia, but there is a distinction.

That being said, there's plenty of other criticisms that can be thrown at Sarkeesian's work, particularly her poor research and contextualization skills.

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