The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

It really isn't her fault. That's the way Kickstarter works. She asked for, what I will on sheer trust in decency assune was a reasonable amount to do the series she wanted (pease don't start with all that "but everyone can do a video for nothing today", production value and proper research still cost money), and then people decided to give her more money. Knowing full well she already had enough money, they wanted to give more. That's not ridiculous, that's awesome. If people want to give money let them, I know for a fact that Bob has a donate button on his blog, why is this different? She hasn't asked for this much to make the videos and hopefully she'll do somethng productive with the leftover money, but the point is people rose up and said that the way some people reacted to that video proved it was necessary, and they said it with their wallets. This is not the worst part, this is the best part.

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

"Basically Youtube videos"? You've seen them?

You're assuming that these videos will be the same quality as Big Picture, Extra Credits, etc. If that were so, then $150K would be plenty excessive. But she does have $150K. She's working with a pretty big budget and considerably more time than a week per video(I assume), so why assume that the videos themselves will be the same as shows working with weekly web show budgets?

I think you're missing the point of Kickstarter. She's not being paid all that money. People are giving her that money for the videos. Perhaps she could just use the $6000 she originally asked for and pocket the rest, I dunno, but she's clearly not doing that; when the funding started to way exceed the goal, what was originally would have been a 5-episode series along the same lines as her other FF videos expanded to a 12-episode series with a classroom curriculum and professional production values.

Monxeroth:
Oh and if there's something i have to say about this project that hasn't been said already
Well then i'll just leave this here and you can see for yourselves

So you're trying to say the douchebags are also making videos about the lady? K.

malestrithe:
Well, I agree withe the sentiment, and I'm glad this was placed before the backlash. Now, I'll get to see this rise to absurd numbers when the teenage white male demographic comes a knocking.

You might have the wrong forum for that.

Varya:
(pease don't start with all that "but everyone can do a video for nothing today", production value and proper research still cost money)

A fact all too often overlooked, and quite detrimental for professional videographers, photographers, and more than a few other professions that also exist as hobby.

If you're happy with whatever turd your cousin craps out and uploads to youtube, then good on you. If you want professional work, then don't start moaning when you're expected to pay a professional's rate.

I haven't seen her work, but what she's asking is on the lower side of what'd justify professional quality in both production values and research.

Couldn't agree more with the final word of this episode. I disagree with a ton of Anita Sarkeesian's points and dislike her way of expressing them but I still contributed $10 to her project because her right to do so should be unassailable. Having people being critical of the medium and issues like these is vital to pushing society forward and finding acceptable compromise.

Big Boob Panty Ninja 12 will never be as good as Big Boob Panty Ninja 7: Mystical Chainmail Thong. In all seriousness good video and I totally agree.

Does anyone already own a copyright to "big boob panty ninja"? If not I've got a game to make.

She'll be a female protagonist who needs to dress sexy to get close to her assassination targets because her voluptuous physique make all the sneaking around in the dark quite impossible for her. I'll also have her suffer from back problems and self esteem issues. I'll also give her a more realistic looking sister who is an all around better ninja (think protoman in relation to megaman when he is first introduced) that she want to be better than. This would probably make a good manga the more I think this out...

In all seriousness, I've always debunked the argument of the mountain of muscle argument as that is an obtainable goal if you put in the time an effort to get that buff. A female will not however (without surgery) ever be able to turn into Ayane; no matter how much time or effort they put in to transforming themselves. Both images are unrealistic but one is impossible for all but a few.

There's going to be a Big Boob Panty Ninja 12?
Did you find the secrete door at E3?

My problem with the whole argument is that overhauling the media and portraying all women with "regular" body types wouldn't fix anything.
The real problem here doesn't have anything to do with the media or uber sexy fake women. The problem is the biological imperative that guys think with their dicks. If there were no D-cup hourglass women in comic books, videogames, movies, etc the underlining problem wouldn't be any less prevalent.

Attacking all the hot bodied characters isn't really attacking the source, or even a symptom of the problem. It's just an easy target

Varya:

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

It really isn't her fault. That's the way Kickstarter works. She asked for, what I will on sheer trust in decency assune was a reasonable amount to do the series she wanted (pease don't start with all that "but everyone can do a video for nothing today", production value and proper research still cost money), and then people decided to give her more money. Knowing full well she already had enough money, they wanted to give more. That's not ridiculous, that's awesome. If people want to give money let them, I know for a fact that Bob has a donate button on his blog, why is this different? She hasn't asked for this much to make the videos and hopefully she'll do somethng productive with the leftover money, but the point is people rose up and said that the way some people reacted to that video proved it was necessary, and they said it with their wallets. This is not the worst part, this is the best part.

Also if she wants to use actual game characters and not just inspired look-a-likes she'll have to pay licensing fees.

Bara_no_Hime:

MovieBob:
Tropes vs. MovieBob

Debunking a recurring argument.

THANK YOU.

Oh, by the gods, thank you for this video. Now when I have this argument for the nth time, I can post your video and say "Look. This."

Seconded! This and Jim Sterling's article on the subject: http://www.gamefront.com/misandry-in-videogames-oh-grow-the-f-k-up/ really make me feel less disgusted with the internet

Can't wait till tropes takes a look at Samus and the Metroid prime games then looks at another M. The horror it burns usssss.

newwiseman:
Also if she wants to use actual game characters and not just inspired look-a-likes she'll have to pay licensing fees.

As I recall, you don't have to pay licensing fees to use limited amounts of copyrighted material for the purpose of criticism or parody. It goes under Fair Use or other international equivalents.

Given how I think that MovieBob has mishandled some more serious issues in the past, such as the absurd "double standard is OK because I say so"-episode, I was expecting to have disagreements with him in this video, and yeah, that's how it turned out.

My main disagreement however isn't with the points he makes, which are largely true, but rather that he focuses his entire attention on one argument, the debunking of which is pointless. Two wrongs do not make a right. The fact that men are idealised in video games doesn't make it any more or less valid that women are, too.

In other words, this video doesn't cover any of the important issues in this debate. Moreover, MovieBob goes from talking about video game characters with big boobs to talking about sexism in the workplace, as if the two are somehow related. They're results of the same problem but no one is sitting in an office chair thinking "well, if only she looked liked Ivy from that fighting game, I'd hire her."

This is a widespread cultural issue and the video game industry is not the cause of it. Claiming otherwise is just as absurd as that rather embarrassingly large group of people who think that Resident Evil 5 is racist. Equating a hate-based ideology that has caused and is still causing deaths and suffering to something as utterly trivial as a video game must be insulting to those who live to tell the tale.

Pointing out examples of "sexist" characters in media is easy and pointless. Rather than focusing our energy on trying to make our media somehow more fair and honest (which is in and of itself a laugh, just look at films and TV series) we should focus our attention on how women are actually treated, you know, the stuff that actually matters.

Xanthious:
I think I would rather have had the Jabberjaw episode this week. Is it too late for the Jabberjaw episode?

2 things:
A 00:47 I died laughing at that, I just about fell out of my chair.
and
B what this fellow said. If you read this bob, you should do that jabberjaw episode for real.

Ugh. Initially I was hoping this would be an episode about Tvtropes or, failing that, the Jabberjaw episode.

I've said it before and I'll probably have to say it again at some point: the backlash against this woman's entirely reasonable project is atrocious, though I could also do without ever hearing her banal analyses again.

Hopefully the commenters learn that their seething hatred has only made Sarkeesian's case stronger as well as given her more money. And hopefully Sarkeesian reads some more damn books instead of letting this fight go to her head; maybe picks up some queer theory too while she's at it so we can get an analysis of video games that is a little more nuanced than the severely dated second wave stuff she's put out so far.

I agree with bob when regarding that specific argument. But when you look at it, the male and female tropes in video games are both equally sexist. The only difference between the two is how they came into existence.

Now as we all know, Video Game Developers and big name Publishers are very slow to change. Much like Hollywood, they're stagnating and the quality of the games we are receiving is diminishing. Companies are far too afraid to make anything particularly ground breaking, with a few noted exceptions here and there. I'm 100% for more realistically portrayed characters on both sides. I also like my Super Turbo Panty Stripper style games, but that's between me and the game.

Anita is going about her videos in the wrong way. She presents them in an antagonistic light with regards to games. She immediately sets the US VS Them style as if there's some war to be fought. The reality is that there is no fight or war, only consumer response the the games that are being released currently. The best and most effective way to fight off sexism, racism and violence is through proper parenting and education. There is no other way.

TL:DR: I agree with bob, however Anita is going about attacking games in the same way Jack Thompson attacked violent video games and "Murder Simulators". She's certainly educating, but If I wanted to teach my kids about how to treat others in society, then it needs to be a collective effort from everyone to better educate our youth.

Closing Comments:

So what would a better education do to solve this particular predicament? Well the idea that video game art is inherently sexist is simply a matter of interpretation. When you educate someone about sex, and that person looks at porn, he/she knows that the porn isn't realistic. Through education we get better at analyzing the information we receive on a daily basis. In a society where violence, sexuality and racism are rampantly portrayed by media, it has become that much more important to address these difficult issues with our children. As long as parents and schools neglect these facts, sexism, racism and violence will exist in our society.

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

You'd think all those Hunger Games royalties could cover it. I'm thinking this kickstarter was done for one of two reasons: either as a way to incite a flame war and generate free publicity, or to prove that people are willing to hand over money to get this point across.

Off-topic: personally I don't really like fair haired-big bosomed women like Rachel or Ivy. Sure my body likes to look at them, but they're just too superficial for my tastes.

What I got from the video is that we need more fat / ugly female video game characters. I can get behind that.

Isn't it also offensive to men to assume they all want skimpily dressed big-boobed women (or, if we're looking at Japanese stuff, 10-year old girls)?

Not everyone finds the same kind of body-type sexy. For example, I like Ivy's over-the-top design, but she definitely isn't sexy to me. She looks too silly for that.

Female characters I find attractive tend to be more realistically proportioned, even fat by the screwed-up standards of videogames, and even more importantly, funny and smart and interesting characters.

Chatney:

Pointing out examples of "sexist" characters in media is easy and pointless. Rather than focusing our energy on trying to make our media somehow more fair and honest (which is in and of itself a laugh, just look at films and TV series) we should focus our attention on how women are actually treated, you know, the stuff that actually matters.

Isn't how an issue is portrayed in the media indicative on how it is viewed in society?
And how exactly does complaining about video-games (and I'd like to remind you that this is a video-game forum) somehow make it impossible to also focus on how women are treated in real life?

Besides, I'm a fan of video-games, and I'd very much like to have interesting realistic female characters in them.

Not the most important cause in the world, true, but it's not like whining about it on the net (or even playing video-games) is ALL I do with my life.

I generally agree with Bob's points but would like to add 2 things:

While there are plenty of feminist intellectuals who do perfectly fine critiques there are also activists who will just complain about anything to get the attention to their cause. (I don't know which category Tropes V video games lady falls into - I've not really looked, I will assume it's fine).

Secondly, while the United States has strong libertarian vibes and a constitution that takes an earthquake of political will to amend there are plenty of countries that just might get convinced to take away "Big-Boobed Panty Ninja". This is not meant as a knock down argument against critiques, just saying.

I've actually used the "it's not a gender specific issue, everyone is made to look prettier in games" argument in the past. Not that I'm in any way opposed to a better representation of women in pop-culture or anti-feminist in any way, it just seemed to make a certain amount of sense to me at the time. I'll admit, it's not nearly as strong of an argument as I thought it was.

Still, I don't think it's entirely invalid either. Problematic tropes and characters based on sketchy ideals, physical or otherwise, are worth raising an eyebrow at regardless of what gender they affect.

Wow, that was really good! Seriously, some great points that I'd never thought of. Thank you, Bob.

Monxeroth:
Oh and if there's something i have to say about this project that hasn't been said already
Well then i'll just leave this here and you can see for yourselves

Doctrine of relative filth: It's not as bad here as it is in other places so don't complain.

This is one of the worst put together argument videos I have ever seen. There can be valid counter arguments. This was not one of them.

templar1138a:
Thanks for pointing this crap out.

When I saw the trailer for the kick-starter, I remained as objective as possible, neither allowing myself to say "Oh god, not this again!" or "Oh god, she's so right!"

In the end, I thought about it and thought, "Yes, there's plenty of stereotyping and objectifying of women in video games. But what's this woman's agenda? There's something about her tone that I don't like. I get the feeling she has a certain sense of superiority to people around her. In a way, she reminds me of Michael Moore..."

I later read that she makes a point about still being a virgin. I have yet to confirm it, but if she does indeed make that as a point to try to validate herself, it says a lot about her agenda and her view of men.

But my ultimate realization came about when I saw the hateful responses to her kick-starter trailer. At first I just thought, "Oh great, the internet's at it again." But then I realized, "Wait a minute, she wanted this to happen. She wanted to be pelted with abuse and hate so attention would be drawn to her kick-starter and she'd get the funds she needs. Not only that, but she could possibly use that abuse as ammunition to push the extreme not-feminist idea that men are inferior to women (if that's her agenda, I honestly don't know, it only occurred as a possibility)."

And then, in my best Australian accent, "Clever girl!"

So from there, I decided to ignore this fiasco. Because the abuse is not being caused by the video games themselves, which I think she believes. The abuse is a symptom of larger problems within the gamer and geek cultures. Her video isn't going to change that in either direction, and she herself will be forgotten until she finds another powder keg of a demographic to set off.

And if you haven't noticed, I haven't addressed her by name. Because I don't remember it, even with it being mentioned in the kick-starter promo and this Big Picture episode. Because she is so small compared to the larger issue that is root of the misogyny that exists within gamer/geek culture.

Regardless of whether or not games or other forms of geek media are responsible for this behavior, it's the symptom of a culture that's formed around them, which at least means that there's something about this segment of the media that appeals to that kind of human being. The combination of the media itself, and the element that's drawn to those factors leads to a normalization of misogyny that could potentially even affect more rational people in a subtle, but still harmful way. In short, I think there is a valid point to be made that while video games might not cause the behavior they could play a role in perpetuating it.

As far as Anita Sarkeesian thinking that women are superior to men, I haven't seen anything in any of her videos that would lead me to believe that, and the idea that the whole thing was a pre-meditated act of flame-baiting is pure speculation on your part.

and deus ex has reduced women to breasts

/joking even when the street hooker rate is damn high

like i said before in another thread

rhizhim:

lets hope her 'series' are longer than that. i wonder what she is going to with all the money when her videos already have this kind of quality. she has now over 1/8 of a million dollars.
i hope they are researched a bit better and longer.

The entire sexism argument should be flatly ignored.

No progress is ever made and when push comes to shiv the only people left participating are the Women who want all me to die and the Men who think of women as Objects.

The biggest problem with the entire argument is that it is too subjective. The latest Sex Symbol in Japan is Nintendos Office Lady in their ads. Cultural boundaries are so erratic on what would be sexually exploitative of women would be anything and everything.

The ultimate result of the argument isn't any good ether.

Eastern Orthodox Catholics/Russian Catholics view Hair as Sexually Seductive. Therefor, women must wear head scarves.

Islam, any skin showing on a woman is too Sexually Seductive in public. Therefor, women must be fully clothed from head to toe.

Your argument ultimately falls to pieces, because you offer no valid solution, and can be pared down to Attractive Women Shouldn't Be Seen.

So which world do you want?

Do you want a world where women are free to exist as whatever tramp, harlot, stripper, engineer, teacher, or scientist they want to be?

Or do you want a world where women are not to be seen in public?

The path you're presenting Bob is the path that leads to women not being seen even though I know your intention is not to go that far. Your logic is the very logic that has been used to Oppress women the most.

MatParker116:

Best female video game character is Alyx Vance by the way.

False. How dare you find Alyx Vance better than GLaDOS! Vance is a close second though :-P

However, an argument can be made that GLaDOS is just as much an objectification of women as Big Boob Panty Ninja 12. Many people look at her and see a woman in bondage hanging upside down.

I think the problem with this specific case though is if she was actually as much of a champion of women's issues as she claims to be, why is she focusing on some imaginary woman with big boobs rather than the thousands of real woman who actually fall victim to outdated, sexist cultural ideals in certain parts of the globe every day. I don't see many people in our sheltered little existence being their champion right about now. So, actually, I'd say in relative terms this isn't an issue that really "needs" to be addressed like it's a matter of urgency, and it certainly doesn't require people to throw money at her which she will do nothing with.

The trouble is, while feminism is no doubt an admirable movement that, at it's heart, seeks a fairer society for all, the doesn't stop a lot of feminists from being idiots, in the same way that a lot of people period are idiots. However, in these enlightened times it seems you are unable to call someone who identifies themselves as feminist an idiot, without you being labeled a chauvinist pig, which is a large part what has led to the angry backlash against feminism in general. Does that make the comments on Youtube justified? Hell no, but who honestly cares about what Youtube trolls say anymore. If their opinions aren't worth noting then why are you acting like their petty insults are a big deal? They can spout all the unpleasant sexist comments they like and it will mean nothing because people know by now not to listen to Youtube.

Also, is it just me, or does her whining in her video's about how it's not fair that men get all the 'exciting' jobs in media and entertainment to be painfully immature. In the real world, these 'exciting' jobs, like fire-fighters and soldiers, get people killed, maimed for life and psychologically scarred. I'm not saying there shouldn't be more equality, quite the opposite, but she devolves the argument to 'we want to do all the cool shit too!' when, in the real world, the cool shit isn't cool at all, it's as messy as it comes. That argument, coming from a supposedly mature adult, really grates with me. I want equality, but on the basis of equality itself, not because it 'isn't fair' that more women don't get killed on battlefields or in burning buildings.

Chatney:

Pointing out examples of "sexist" characters in media is easy and pointless. Rather than focusing our energy on trying to make our media somehow more fair and honest (which is in and of itself a laugh, just look at films and TV series) we should focus our attention on how women are actually treated, you know, the stuff that actually matters.

This specific woman is treated with a deluge of mysogyny, anti-semitism, racism, and plain insults that beggars belief - all for proposing to make a series of videos on a tendency in video gaming that really is in dire need of an overhaul.

Even by your own arguments there is something preeetttty wrong here.

Hollyday:

Seconded! This and Jim Sterling's article on the subject: http://www.gamefront.com/misandry-in-videogames-oh-grow-the-f-k-up/ really make me feel less disgusted with the internet

Read the comments, the disgust will come pouring back

I noticed Bob conveniently ignored that men are indeed objectified in much the same way as women in things like trashy romance novels, daytime soap operas, TV shows like Desperate Housewives and Gray's Anatomy, or even movies like Twilight and I could go on. Last I checked there aren't hordes of men getting in line to buy soap boxes to stand on while they get all indignant on the internet about that though.

The thing is that sex sells. If you have a product aimed largely at men having scantily clad women in the mix somewhere is probably going to help you move product. Similarly if you your product is for women then having men with bodies that look to be chiseled of stone will probably be good for the bottom line. This isn't some huge social issue plaguing society, or even geek culture. It happens on both sides of the fence every single day.

Very well said Bob. Even though I never really understand what this segment is for, you do on occasion have a good thought provoking topic.

For everyone else, i would suggest watching a movie called Miss Representation, which doesn't limit itself to video games but shows how women are treated in all forms of media, and how men don't really have it much better because they are pushed to behave as the tough no feeling man which makes it hard to empathize and be a decent person.

I have always supported equality for all, but after watching this movie I realized how I had been raised to be the stong, emotionally dead type. I won't even give my nephew a hug, but instead had to give him a high 5.

Anyone who thinks women are treated equal, or even worse are one of those misandry is a big problem people, then are completely deluging themselves. It is nice to see people like Bob making statments like in this episode.

Kof has some female portrait variety





I know there's still Mai, Shermie, Blue Mary and Angel

Littaly:
I've actually used the "it's not a gender specific issue, everyone is made to look prettier in games" argument in the past. Not that I'm in any way opposed to a better representation of women in pop-culture or anti-feminist in any way, it just seemed to make a certain amount of sense to me at the time. I'll admit, it's not nearly as strong of an argument as I thought it was.

Still, I don't think it's entirely invalid either. Problematic tropes and characters based on sketchy ideals, physical or otherwise, are worth raising an eyebrow at regardless of what gender they affect.

That's certainly true, but totally unrelated to Sarkeesian's project. The premise of her series isn't inherently flawed just because there's also a related issue that she hasn't mentioned.

Why is this subject even that important anyways? Needless to say, if you are dumb enough to buy a game because of big boobie girls on the front, you are about as equal of a fool if you avoid a great game because a fake woman's giant chest. Cut the special attention play, people. If you are upset at a fake woman's rack or body structure, clearly your priorities in life are screwed. And if it really makes a woman upset that their body is out of proportion and (This is a sheer minority for an example I am giving in 3...2....1...) if you are among a group of women who feel like you are being objectified because you cannot measure up--then by all means, you may just have self confidence issues.

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