The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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Darkmantle:
which is what she's doing to game designers isn't she? :/ that's all I was saying.

I don't know what you're saying because I wasn't addressing you directly. I'm just pointing out that it makes things a bit suspect that people are quick to tell Sarkeesian what to do with that excess money, but they never do that to anyone else. Look how much cash Steh Godin is raking in to publish a book. How many people do you think are calling him names and insulting him while telling him what to do with that extra money? How many people here do you think are going to do that?

PercyBoleyn:
I doubt it, she's basically clueless. She needs to give the money to someone who actually knows what they're doing instead of embarassing herself over and over again.

There's no law preventing people from saying something stupid. Shit, look at half this thread.

PercyBoleyn:

itsthesheppy:

How do you know how much she needs, exactly? I mean she could reasonably spend that money making a really kickass video series, right?

I doubt it, she's basically clueless. She needs to give the money to someone who actually knows what they're doing instead of embarassing herself over and over again.

Thanks to Poe's Law, I have no idea if you're being facetious or not. Because I'd prefer to think the better of people despite reasons to the contrary, I'll assume that was satire.

Darkmantle:

TAdamson:

Darkmantle:

The funny thing is, your last line, is what I like to tell people who complain about female stereotypes in games, and possibly what she should be doing with that money :P

just a thought eh?

Do movie critics need to make movies to critique movies?

And $150,000 while it may be enough to fund a couple of programmers for a year is hardly enough to make a game.

What she has been given tha money to do is critique. Unless you donated under the supposition that she would do something else that is all you can really expect.

The fact that the internet has given her a volume of ammunition further to critique is something that the community should subject to serious introspection.

Wow you really dialed it back from the post I got in my inbox, bravo. The problem here is that buddy I quoted is saying (and I quote, all pun intended) "Instead of abstractly telling her what she should be doing, why not go fucking make something yourself?" But the problem is that SHE is the one abstractly telling game designers what to do. So it's a hypocritical argument. I don't think anything along the lines of you have to make movies to criticise them, but that guys reasoning is terribly flawed.

Although honestly, after lara croft thing that's being going on, as a game designer I would be severely tempted to throw up arms and say, "you do it then".

Yeah I changed my argument a bit. I've learned to dial down my outrage lest it be misconstrued that I'm building a "straw man" just because I challenge ALL previous discussion topics that have come before.

I'm going to make this point ----> What is wrong with her abstractly telling game designers what to do?

A) She has the right to her opinion.
B) She has the right to free speech.
C) Game makers have the right to ignore her/their/opinion.
D) Game makers have the right to free speech.

I cannot imagine that Anita Sarkeesian would have any effect on video games any more than Jim Sterling or Susan Arndt or even Yahtzee Crowshaw. So how is her (Hard Feminist opinion that it is.) different from any other reviewer?

Except for the fact that she can be called an entitled Jewish princess cunt that should be raped....

(Note: No straw men here. I'm not suggesting that you would do that - but I am suggesting that you are subjecting this reviewer to deeper scrutiny than usual for whatever reason.)

PercyBoleyn:

TAdamson:
snip

Men are also judged by their appearance.

Hmmm.

Are sixty year old women judged by the same standard as sixty year old men?

What about similar standards for 40 year olds?

Now what about 30 year olds?

Are men judged by the same standard for their age?

Do get back to me on that one.

TAdamson:
Well he's complaining about discrimination because he's fat.

I disagree with him too, but I'm trying not to be a dick about it.

itsthesheppy:

Thanks to Poe's Law, I have no idea if you're being facetious or not. Because I'd prefer to think the better of people despite reasons to the contrary, I'll assume that was satire.

Why would I be joking? She's a clueless, disingenuous person. Someone with actual knowledge could put that money to better use.

TAdamson:
Are sixty year old women judged by the same standard as sixty year old men?

Yes.

TAdamson:
What about similar standards for 40 year olds?

Pretty much.

TAdamson:
No what about 30 year olds?

Yep.

TAdamson:
Are men judged by the same standard for their age?

Yearp.

PercyBoleyn:

itsthesheppy:

How do you know how much she needs, exactly? I mean she could reasonably spend that money making a really kickass video series, right?

I doubt it, she's basically clueless. She needs to give the money to someone who actually knows what they're doing instead of embarassing herself over and over again.

Yes, because those that liked her videos before this whole situation started to the tune of $24,000 are totally ignorant.

Don't they know that this Master of Social Studies doesn't know what she is talking about? It's outrageous that a person with a Graduate Degree dares talk about things that interest people on the internet and receives money.

What an embarrassment for feminism that a feminist would want to broadcast feminist musings on the internet. Especially that clueless bitch with a Graduate Degree.

itsthesheppy:

lord.jeff:

itsthesheppy:

Or, you know, making a really badass video series, with a higher budget. Funny how nobody seems to be suggesting that...

I don't think anyone's suggesting that because that's the current standing plan for the money, the kickstater was made to help finance the web show and she's way beyond what she needs for that.

How do you know how much she needs, exactly? I mean she could reasonably spend that money making a really kickass video series, right?

$6000 according to her original goal, if I was in her position I'd probably put $20000 into a set and equipment $30000 to live on so I could dedicate myself to my goals without a job in the way, 25000 on guest speaker and that's only if I'm doing them regularly, and $40000 web master, hosting, and advertising, that's a quick ideal budget that still only comes to 115000, which leaves around a 100000 to spend and well it's possible to spend that on the site and show, it'd be wasteful and she could help her cause in better ways like an indie game or a charity.

PercyBoleyn:

itsthesheppy:

Thanks to Poe's Law, I have no idea if you're being facetious or not. Because I'd prefer to think the better of people despite reasons to the contrary, I'll assume that was satire.

Why would I be joking? She's a clueless, disingenuous person. Someone with actual knowledge could put that money to better use.

TAdamson:
Are sixty year old women judged by the same standard as sixty year old men?

Yes.

TAdamson:
What about similar standards for 40 year olds?

Pretty much.

TAdamson:
No what about 30 year olds?

Yep.

TAdamson:
Are men judged by the same standard for their age?

Yearp.

Go back to r/mensrights.

They miss you.

lord.jeff:

itsthesheppy:

lord.jeff:

I don't think anyone's suggesting that because that's the current standing plan for the money, the kickstater was made to help finance the web show and she's way beyond what she needs for that.

How do you know how much she needs, exactly? I mean she could reasonably spend that money making a really kickass video series, right?

$6000 according to her original goal, if I was in her position I'd probably put $20000 into a set and equipment $30000 to live on so I could dedicate myself to my goals without a job in the way, 25000 on guest speaker and that's only if I'm doing them regularly, and $40000 web master, hosting, and advertising, that's a quick ideal budget that still only comes to 115000, which leaves around a 100000 to spend and well it's possible to spend that on the site and show, it'd be wasteful and she could help her cause in better ways like an indie game or a charity.

Given that she's clearly more into film than she is into video games, I find the constant suggestion that she make an indie game or something to be a little unfair. she's much more likely to put it into something film-related though, frankly, I don't care.

You don't know what she's going to put it towards so criticizing what you think she's going to use it for is just spinning wheels.

PercyBoleyn:

itsthesheppy:

How do you know how much she needs, exactly? I mean she could reasonably spend that money making a really kickass video series, right?

I doubt it, she's basically clueless. She needs to give the money to someone who actually knows what they're doing instead of embarassing herself over and over again.

I'm curious, would "asking for six thousand dollars and getting two hundred thousand dollars instead" be embarrassing to you? Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like she's winning.

I'd certainly feel like a winner if I made a kickstarter that made over 3,000% of what I'd set out to make, I'd feel like king of the world.

Perhaps... are you jelly, brah? You may be jelly. You look like you might be a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. With a banana in it, and the banana is also jelly.

See when ever someone says something might be sexist there is always a wave of anti-feminists and misogynists. Something I always find fascinating is how quick people are to fly the mission accomplished poster and say, yup everyone is equal problem solved. It's simply dishonest thinking, sexism still exists. It's less one way than the old fashioned father knows best of the 50s, and it something as a species we need to look at. There are still many men, largely gamers, who insult women as if they are inferior. A huge amount of our language is targeted at women, with a disproportionate amount of insults being based on females and their sexual organs. Men are victims too, women are still largely favored in rape cases and divorces, and many people still say men can't be raped, and if they are it's funny. Analyzing tropes in popular media, focused on females as her channel is, can only bring deeper understanding of societal pressures and make deeper more believable female characters. And that's something we all benefit from.

TL;DR understanding tropes leads to deeper understanding of characters and therefore better characters. This causes better and more believable examples in media, potentially increasing self esteem and other junk.

itsthesheppy:

lord.jeff:

itsthesheppy:

How do you know how much she needs, exactly? I mean she could reasonably spend that money making a really kickass video series, right?

$6000 according to her original goal, if I was in her position I'd probably put $20000 into a set and equipment $30000 to live on so I could dedicate myself to my goals without a job in the way, 25000 on guest speaker and that's only if I'm doing them regularly, and $40000 web master, hosting, and advertising, that's a quick ideal budget that still only comes to 115000, which leaves around a 100000 to spend and well it's possible to spend that on the site and show, it'd be wasteful and she could help her cause in better ways like an indie game or a charity.

Given that she's clearly more into film than she is into video games, I find the constant suggestion that she make an indie game or something to be a little unfair. she's much more likely to put it into something film-related though, frankly, I don't care.

You don't know what she's going to put it towards so criticizing what you think she's going to use it for is just spinning wheels.

Exactly.

The vast majority of her videos discuss Hollywood Film. So I am perplexed at the (Disgusting male) outrage at her turning her focus toward games.

Did she notably alter film with her opinions? As far as I can tell films are a misogynistic and shitty as ever.

Occasionally fun and misogynistic, occasionally shit and fun, occasionally misogynistic and shit. But never fun and shit........ It's weird something can be shit and fun but not fun and shit.

TAdamson:
Yes, because those that liked her videos before who gave money to her are totally ignorant.

Her donors are white knights with male guilt complex I'd say they're pretty ignorant.

TAdamson:
What an embarrassment for feminism that a feminist would want to broadcast feminist musings on the internet. Especially that clueless bitch with a Graduate Degree.

A self proclaimed pop culture critic who doesn't even bother to research the things she's criticising? Yeah, it's embarassing alright.

TAdamson:
snip

I don't go to reddit.

itsthesheppy:
I'm curious, would "asking for six thousand dollars and getting two hundred thousand dollars instead" be embarrassing to you? Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like she's winning.

Winning what?

itsthesheppy:
Perhaps... are you jelly, brah? You may be jelly. You look like you might be a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. With a banana in it, and the banana is also jelly.

Jealous of what?

TAdamson:

Darkmantle:

TAdamson:

Do movie critics need to make movies to critique movies?

And $150,000 while it may be enough to fund a couple of programmers for a year is hardly enough to make a game.

What she has been given tha money to do is critique. Unless you donated under the supposition that she would do something else that is all you can really expect.

The fact that the internet has given her a volume of ammunition further to critique is something that the community should subject to serious introspection.

Wow you really dialed it back from the post I got in my inbox, bravo. The problem here is that buddy I quoted is saying (and I quote, all pun intended) "Instead of abstractly telling her what she should be doing, why not go fucking make something yourself?" But the problem is that SHE is the one abstractly telling game designers what to do. So it's a hypocritical argument. I don't think anything along the lines of you have to make movies to criticise them, but that guys reasoning is terribly flawed.

Although honestly, after lara croft thing that's being going on, as a game designer I would be severely tempted to throw up arms and say, "you do it then".

Yeah I changed my argument a bit. I've learned to dial down my outrage lest it be misconstrued that I'm building a "straw man" just because I challenge ALL previous discussion topics that have come before.

I'm going to make this point ----> What is wrong with her abstractly telling game designers what to do?

A) She has the right to her opinion.
B) She has the right to free speech.
C) Game makers have the right to ignore her/their/opinion.
D) Game makers have the right to free speech.

I cannot imagine that Anita Sarkeesian would have any effect on video games any more than Jim Sterling or Susan Arndt or even Yahtzee Crowshaw. So how is her (Hard Feminist opinion that it is.) different from any other reviewer?

Except for the fact that she can be called an entitled Jewish princess cunt that should be raped....

(Note: No straw men here. I'm not suggesting that you would do that - but I am suggesting that you are subjecting this reviewer to deeper scrutiny than usual for whatever reason.)

Oh I don't think you are "strawman"ing me, I just think you are missing my point.

the poster I responded to was saying "don't tell her what she should do, instead go do it yourself."

I played devils advocate by basically responding with "well she should just go make a game then, because devs could say the same thing to her (go make a game with "good female representation yourself, instead of telling me what to do), if we accept that as a valid argument".

I wasn't so much making an argument as negating another. I don't think the devs or other people should use that argument, but I am also saying she (and her defenders) can't use that argument either.

make a bit more sense?

Darkmantle:

I played devils advocate by basically responding with "well she should just go make a game then, because devs could say the same thing to her (go make a game with "good female representation yourself, instead of telling me what to do), if we accept that as a valid argument".

I wasn't so much making an argument as negating another. I don't think the devs or other people should use that argument, but I am also saying she (and her defenders) can't use that argument either.

make a bit more sense?

"make a bit more sense?"

The argument appeared to be that she should make a game.

I can see how this argument could be whimsical but that still boils down to: "Ha if you're so smart why don't you make a game that isn't sexist?"

Anita Sarkeesian has no ability to make a game. Her expertise is in sociology so whether you agree with her view or not:

She's not a programmer, she's not a game designer.

But that does not disqualify her from being game reviewer nor commentator.

There are many commentators in the industry and in other mediums that have no technical expertise in the medium that that discuss. The fact that they have experienced the medium is enough.

The fact that she has a Postgraduate degree in Social Thought should give her a unique perspective on the subject and gamers should be honoured to have someone of that calibre display an academic interest in video games.

Honoured I say. Disagree with her? Absolutely! Do it civilly and you earn the mark of maturity.

Welcome women's studies into videogames. Welcome race studies into videogames. Welcome sociology into videogames.

Do these things and you welcome maturity into videogames.

PercyBoleyn:
A self proclaimed pop culture critic who doesn't even bother to research the things she's criticising? Yeah, it's embarassing alright.

Fail to do these things and you let people like PercyBoleyn rule video games.

It's up to you internet

TAdamson:

PercyBoleyn:
A self proclaimed pop culture critic who doesn't even bother to research the things she's criticising? Yeah, it's embarassing alright.

Fail to do these things and you let people like PercyBoleyn rule video games.

It's up to you internet

Or Bob. Or itthesheppy. Or... anyone else on this fucking thread, really.

PercyBoleyn:

itsthesheppy:
I'm curious, would "asking for six thousand dollars and getting two hundred thousand dollars instead" be embarrassing to you? Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like she's winning.

Winning what?

itsthesheppy:
Perhaps... are you jelly, brah? You may be jelly. You look like you might be a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. With a banana in it, and the banana is also jelly.

Jealous of what?

Winning: at life.

Jealous: of her winning.

PercyBoleyn:

itsthesheppy:

Thanks to Poe's Law, I have no idea if you're being facetious or not. Because I'd prefer to think the better of people despite reasons to the contrary, I'll assume that was satire.

Why would I be joking? She's a clueless, disingenuous person. Someone with actual knowledge could put that money to better use.

So she's either a mastermind gaming 4Chan and calling victimization, or she's a clueless person who doesn't know how to make a video.

Do you read what you write?

PercyBoleyn:

itsthesheppy:
Perhaps... are you jelly, brah? You may be jelly. You look like you might be a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. With a banana in it, and the banana is also jelly.

Jealous of what?

$150,000 dollars for a start.

Having a graduate degree.

I could suggest other things.

itsthesheppy:

Machine Man 1992:

itsthesheppy:

I would really suggest that you stop addressing me directly, as I'm not really reading your posts. If you want to re-engage me you might want to send me a PM and we can talk again on some amiable terms.

Ah, I see the resident misandrist is back to it's old tricks. I'm not even going to acknowledge your existence as a member of the human race out of fear that doing so would legitimize the fact you are using the noble cause of feminism as a front for your blatant hatred of men.

People like you aren't feminists. Feminists fight for gender equality, a world free of double standards and equal opportunity for men and women. People like you on the other hand use it as a means to attack men everywhere, knowing that any counter argument would lose credibility by sheer virtue of you being attached to the movement.

Get it? You are a coward.

I never claimed to be a feminist. I actually said outright that I did not count myself among their number.

I also don't hate men. I might not like you very much, but that has more to do with you being kind of a jerk, and nothing at all to do with your gender.

What I do is I take a stand against misogyny, and not just the blatant 'get back in the kitchen' fare you get in youtube comments. I am watchful, instead, for the type of casual, well-meaning sexism that is so rampant in gamer culture. This is a society I identify myself with, and I take some responsibility for its content. Unsurprisingly, standing up against male primacy hasn't won me a great many friends. I think I'll survive.

Me? A jerk? Surely you jest!

I mean it wasn't like I made an off hand suggestion on how she could further her goal only for some internet voice come out of the woodwork and deny my ability to comment on this by virtue of being male... OH WAIT.

itsthesheppy:

Winning: at life.

Jealous: of her winning.

How is she winning at life?

jmarquiso:

So she's either a mastermind gaming 4Chan and calling victimization, or she's a clueless person who doesn't know how to make a video.

Do you read what you write?

That was a joke.

TAdamson:

$150,000 dollars for a start.

Having a graduate degree.

I could suggest other things.

Why would I be jealous of that?

PercyBoleyn:

TAdamson:

$150,000 dollars for a start.

Having a graduate degree.

I could suggest other things.

Why would I be jealous of that?

Well if you have substantially more than $150,000 cash then I congratulate you sir.

There is also her Master's degree and her ability to market herself.

I also ask you why you give a fuck? You obviously hate her despite her doing no damage, and having no ability to do damage to your lifestyle.

So... Why do you give a fuck about this reviewer over others?

TAdamson:
Well if you have substantially more than $150,000 cash then I congratulate you sir. There is also her Master's degree and her ability to market herself.

Again, why would I be jealous of that?

PercyBoleyn:

TAdamson:
Well if you have substantially more than $150,000 cash then I congratulate you sir. There is also her Master's degree and her ability to market herself.

Again, why would I be jealous of that?

I ask you why you give a fuck? You obviously hate her despite her doing no damage, and having no ability to do damage to your lifestyle.

So... Why do you give a fuck about this reviewer over others?

TAdamson:

PercyBoleyn:

TAdamson:
Well if you have substantially more than $150,000 cash then I congratulate you sir. There is also her Master's degree and her ability to market herself.

Again, why would I be jealous of that?

I ask you why you give a fuck? You obviously hate her despite her doing no damage, and having no ability to do damage to your lifestyle.

So... Why do you give a fuck about this reviewer over others?

Maybe it's because he's 98% water.

Because he's jellyfish.

You also seem to think that women suffer no extra discrimination due to age.

This makes me feel that you do not inhabit reality. How is it in dimension Q?

itsthesheppy:

TAdamson:

PercyBoleyn:

Again, why would I be jealous of that?

I ask you why you give a fuck? You obviously hate her despite her doing no damage, and having no ability to do damage to your lifestyle.

So... Why do you give a fuck about this reviewer over others?

Maybe it's because he's 98% water.

Because he's jellyfish.

Ha!!! That's gold!!!

Golden jellyfish that is.....

PercyBoleyn:

TAdamson:
Well if you have substantially more than $150,000 cash then I congratulate you sir. There is also her Master's degree and her ability to market herself.

Again, why would I be jealous of that?

Do you have a Master's Degree? What is it in?

PercyBoleyn:

TAdamson:
Well if you have substantially more than $150,000 cash then I congratulate you sir. There is also her Master's degree and her ability to market herself.

Again, why would I be jealous of that?

Can you capitalize on the internet's hatred of women to the tune of $125,000?

Over a period of a couple of weeks?

And have the objection to you doing so also being, very ironically, the validation for you doing so?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Machine Man 1992:
Me? A jerk? Surely you jest!

I mean it wasn't like I made an off hand suggestion on how she could further her goal only for some internet voice come out of the woodwork and deny my ability to comment on this by virtue of being male... OH WAIT.

So how's the weather up on that cross you've nailed yourself too?

I hate to break it to some of you boys, but women are not in the position of privilege you think they are. There are a lot of women out there who only have a degree of power over men because those clueless man-children see a pretty girl and immediately become a lovesick puppy in the hopes of getting laid (which they won't).

TAdamson:

I ask you why you give a fuck?

Why do you care?

TAdamson:

You obviously hate her

I obviously know more about my opinion of her than you do.

TAdamson:

despite her doing no damage, and having no ability to do damage to your lifestyle.

You must have a lot of faith in her project then.

TAdamson:

So... Why do you give a fuck about this reviewer over others?

Probably because she's a woman.

TAdamson:

You also seem to think that women suffer no extra discrimination due to age.

They don't.

DrVornoff:

So how's the weather up on that cross you've nailed yourself too?

I hate to break it to some of you boys, but women are not in the position of privilege you think they are. There are a lot of women out there who only have a degree of power over men because those clueless man-children see a pretty girl and immediately become a lovesick puppy in the hopes of getting laid (which they won't).

What are you talking about?

PercyBoleyn:

jmarquiso:

So she's either a mastermind gaming 4Chan and calling victimization, or she's a clueless person who doesn't know how to make a video.

Do you read what you write?

That was a joke.

Oh, that was a joke.

You could take notes on internet communication from 4chan, they're much clearer about demonstrating their message.

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