The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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After watching a few of her earlier videos I have to say the problem is with the messenger rather than the message.

One of the problems with her earlier videos is she has the comments is up for approval option on effectively stacking the deck and squelching any real meaningful comment--so those who have been suppressed for a long time got a chance to nuts and say stupid things egging on the trolls to add in their two cents and things quickly go down the tubes.

It doesn't help her "research" is at best laughable when it is not totally pathetic. For example, her portrayal of Captain Janeway as a *favorable* female lead character in her "The Smurfette Principle" shows she doesn't do anything even resembling research. Depending on the episode Janeway is either portrayed as crazier then Captain Garth and Janice Lester combined while being dumber then John Gill of TOS (a point reviewer SF Debris loves to bring up again and again) or Captain Mary Sue.

She seems to be avoiding a point that the Over Thinker brought up way back in "Mississippi Pwning 2" (E23)-the brass tax that encourages these tropes because most gamers are young white males. Then you have the whole "Video Games Come From Japan" problem with all that entails.

Yes there is a problem but this is not the person you want to bring up the issue because you _know_ the research is going to be so bad-one sided that everybody with sense will dismiss it as "feminist strawmen argument BS" and it will do the same amount of damage to the movement as the extremists who wanted 'policeman' turned into 'policeperson' and other totally off the wall nonsense.

PercyBoleyn:
Because you were obviously addressing that to the people who are/were criticising her.

No, I'm going after the people who are saying shit like, "Get back in the kitchen!"

Did you at any point say that?

That's certainly what you meant.

No it wasn't.

"You dare criticize my glorious beautiful waifu? TO THE GALLOWS WITH YE!"

You're only making this harder.

You made a claim, not an argument. Saying that you made an argument implies you have some sort of evidence to support your statements, which you do not. You cannot ask me to prove your claims, that's your job.

I presented the reasoning why I think the way I do. You made no attempt to actually refute it. You just told me I was an asshole because you thought I was talking about you, which I wasn't.

I'd say Anita and her relentless hordes of White Knights.

Okay, what specifically has she done that pisses you off. And please, lay off the personal attacks. It's getting very tiresome to have to tell you that my statements about misogyny did not apply to you.

Riobux:
Feminists like Oakley, yes, people take their feminist ideals as serious as Doomsday prophecies. However, this particular video that is going to be produced apparently is taken seriously enough to not only get serious funding but also has been used in classrooms and by parents to their children. This isn't just "oh god, someone has an opinion I disagree with", this is people being taught about the importance of very particular plights (complete with delightful villains) with the disregarding of others. The seriousness people are taking this video (admittedly I am, but I'm thinking more of a non-critical stance) is my problem.

And what do you plan to do about it?

Machine Man 1992:
Really, if the woman was dumb enough to provoke 4chan, a wretched hive of scum and villainy devoid of any sense of conventional morality, infamous both for its boundless stupidity and endless capacity for lulz, then she reaps what she sowed.

Should the people who harassed her be let off the hook?

maximara:
After watching a few of her earlier videos I have to say the problem is with the messenger rather than the message.

One of the problems with her earlier videos is she has the comments is up for approval option on effectively stacking the deck and squelching any real meaningful comment--so those who have been suppressed for a long time got a chance to nuts and say stupid things egging on the trolls to add in their two cents and things quickly go down the tubes.

It doesn't help her "research" is at best laughable when it is not totally pathetic. For example, her portrayal of Captain Janeway as a *favorable* female lead character in her "The Smurfette Principle" shows she doesn't do anything even resembling research. Depending on the episode Janeway is either portrayed as crazier then Captain Garth and Janice Lester combined while being dumber then John Gill of TOS (a point reviewer SF Debris loves to bring up again and again) or Captain Mary Sue.

She seems to be avoiding a point that the Over Thinker brought up way back in "Mississippi Pwning 2" (E23)-the brass tax that encourages these tropes because most gamers are young white males. Then you have the whole "Video Games Come From Japan" problem with all that entails.

Yes there is a problem but this is not the person you want to bring up the issue because you _know_ the research is going to be so bad-one sided that everybody with sense will dismiss it as "feminist strawmen argument BS" and it will do the same amount of damage to the movement as the extremists who wanted 'policeman' turned into 'policeperson' and other totally off the wall nonsense.

While I disagree with your assessment of Sarkezians work, I kind of agree with your Janeway comment. Janeway was terribly written, which was a shame because Kate Mulgrew did a decent job at portraying her. I read that she didn't know how to play a character so badly written so she eventually settled on portraying her as a high-functioning schizophrenic.

Which, if you go back and watch Voyager, actually kind of works.

maximara:

Yes there is a problem but this is not the person you want to bring up the issue because you _know_ the research is going to be so bad-one sided that everybody with sense will dismiss it as "feminist strawmen argument BS" and it will do the same amount of damage to the movement as the extremists who wanted 'policeman' turned into 'policeperson' and other totally off the wall nonsense.

While I agree - and keep in mind most of the those addressing this have said something like MovieBob's "I may have some issue with some of her past episodes..." - it doesn't take away from the fact that this is obviously an unwelcome point of view to the point of harassment. On the one hand we have backers willing to hear her out to the tune of 150,000 (not nearly the only webseries that has been overfunded to such an extent), and on the other a very vocal group who have harassed her privately and publicly for having this project.

While I may disagree with her - and, like Bob, I do disagree with a few things in her past videos, while agree with others - I am worried that another feminist voice, or even a female voice, will receive similar treatment.

Hallowed Lady:
Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

maximara:

Hallowed Lady:
Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

Point taken on the first bit.

The writers didn't seem to understand the main character they were working with, or any of the other characters for that matter.

jmarquiso:

maximara:

Yes there is a problem but this is not the person you want to bring up the issue because you _know_ the research is going to be so bad-one sided that everybody with sense will dismiss it as "feminist strawmen argument BS" and it will do the same amount of damage to the movement as the extremists who wanted 'policeman' turned into 'policeperson' and other totally off the wall nonsense.

While I agree - and keep in mind most of the those addressing this have said something like MovieBob's "I may have some issue with some of her past episodes..." - it doesn't take away from the fact that this is obviously an unwelcome point of view to the point of harassment. On the one hand we have backers willing to hear her out to the tune of 150,000 (not nearly the only webseries that has been overfunded to such an extent), and on the other a very vocal group who have harassed her privately and publicly for having this project.

While I may disagree with her - and, like Bob, I do disagree with a few things in her past videos, while agree with others - I am worried that another feminist voice, or even a female voice, will receive similar treatment.

Again this goes back the earlier point I had earlier on in the above post--her previous videos and now the kickstarter one have the 'comments is up for approval' option on which can be used to stack the deck as well as squelch any real meaningful discussion.

This creates resentment!

As for agree with some points let me grace you with a quote:

"We have faith in the rights of our people, the rights which have existed time out of mind. We protest against the view that every other nation should have rights - and we have none. We must learn to make our own this blind faith in the rights of our people, in the necessity of devoting ourselves to the service of these rights; we must make our own the faith that gradually victory must be granted us if only we are fanatical enough. And from this love and from this faith there emerges for us the idea of hope."

Those sound like ideas that a lot of modern people would agree with.

Now here is the sting in the tail as it were--those words were spoken in Munich on May 1, 1923 by none other than Adolf Hitler!

Remember my point was messenger vs message--the message may be good but take a careful look at the messenger giving you that message. Is the *entire package* good or are the good parts used to couch something you don't agree with and if made separately you would violent disagree with?

That whole go to 4chan to effectively *attract* the trolls stunt makes me seriously question her motives.

DrVornoff:
No, I'm going after the people who are saying shit like, "Get back in the kitchen!"

You honestly consider 4chan trolls the most representative members of the people who criticize her?

DrVornoff:
No it wasn't.

Then explain who you're addressing more clearly next time.

DrVornoff:
You're only making this harder.

She's not your husbando is she?

DrVornoff:
I presented the reasoning why I think the way I do. You made no attempt to actually refute it. You just told me I was an asshole because you thought I was talking about you, which I wasn't.

No, you made a claim. You stated that group Y is X because Z, except you forgot to include the Z.

DrVornoff:
Okay, what specifically has she done that pisses you off. And please, lay off the personal attacks. It's getting very tiresome to have to tell you that my statements about misogyny did not apply to you.

Read Tenmar's posts.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.379179-The-Big-Picture-Tropes-vs-MovieBob?page=5#14858873 <--- First post he made in this thread, keep going from there.

DrVornoff:
Should the people who harassed her be let off the hook?

That's the most convoluted bullshit you've ever said. Stop changing the fucking goalpost and face facts. This woman PURPOSEFULLY spammed her videos on 4chan, the most vile fucking website on the internet. She knew VERY WELL what the consequences of doing so would entail. BESIDES, when 4chan first got a hold of her videos no one called her a slut or made death threats, people tried to have a discussion with her. She called them trolls and played the victim card so people gave up.

Should the people who made death threats be left off the hook? No, but should SHE be left off the hook for doing what she did? Also no.

As I recall, the same sexism stands for every other medium as well. Even in books, I'm sure people imagine the heroines to be attractive, because that's just what people want to see. And what's the difference between a man idealized for men and one idealized for women? Maybe I don't know too much about women, but I feel like they're not too different from us.

PercyBoleyn:
You honestly consider 4chan trolls the most representative members of the people who criticize her?

Didn't say they were.

She's not your husbando is she?

You're not helping.

No, you made a claim. You stated that group Y is X because Z, except you forgot to include the Z.

If you want it to be clearer, I provide a detailed explanation on page 2 of the Feminism Ad Nauseum thread over at R&P.

Read Tenmar's posts.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.379179-The-Big-Picture-Tropes-vs-MovieBob?page=5#14858873 <--- First post he made in this thread, keep going from there.

Okay so your problem is that she didn't need the money. Matt from LRR pointed out based on the photo of her studio space that the initial estimates on her lighting and computer were probably excessive. There is in fact room for improvement.

It was also pointed out by jmarquiso that this is not that unusual. A lot of projects get funded excessively to make things they were already doing for free. Is it the concept itself that bothers you? Or just this one case? And if the latter, why her specifically?

What I see a lot of people saying when they get angry that Sarkeesian got so much funding, but never bring it up regarding anyone else in similar circumstances, is the possibility that some of them are just pissed off that a project they don't like was successful. But if we're going to support crowdfunding, we have to accept the fact that projects you don't like are going to succeed as well. That's my concern.

That's the most convoluted bullshit you've ever said. Stop changing the fucking goalpost and face facts. This woman PURPOSEFULLY spammed her videos on 4chan, the most vile fucking website on the internet. She knew VERY WELL what the consequences of doing so would entail. BESIDES, when 4chan first got a hold of her videos no one called her a slut or made death threats, people tried to have a discussion with her. She called them trolls and played the victim card so people gave up.

Should the people who made death threats be left off the hook? No, but should SHE be left off the hook for doing what she did? Also no.

First of all, I wasn't talking to you. Second, my concern is that people seem to think that the spamming of 4chan absolves these people of any guilt. Spamming is a dick move. But I see harassing people and trying to silence them as worse, so that is the problem I'm going to go after first. If you would like to address the spamming first, go ahead. I'm not going to stop you. I just don't want this to turn into a round of, "Someone has to win and someone else has to lose, because fuck you."

Hallowed Lady:

maximara:

Hallowed Lady:
Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

Point taken on the first bit.

The writers didn't seem to understand the main character they were working with, or any of the other characters for that matter.

But one of the writers involved was no less then Yoshio Sakamoto (one of the *creators* of Samus) "The game's story was definitely the product of Mr. Sakamoto at Nintendo. We definitely worked with them on the project, but that was all him." (G4 Media and Kotaku)

It was like what happened with Asprin and his MythAdventures series which after a nearly 10 years hiatus he returned to...and it simply didn't work. Even Conan Doyle had problems making his later Holmes stories consistent with what he had written earlier to the point that some would like to forget that things like "The Mazarin Stone" are part of the canon.

As EC said there were better ways for us to get up to speed with Samus--comm chatter would have been a vast improvement over that inane wooden monotone monologue we did get. It's worse than that Tauren (Kor'kron Primalist) in Warcraft that TotalBiscuit made a joke about.

DrVornoff:

Machine Man 1992:
Really, if the woman was dumb enough to provoke 4chan, a wretched hive of scum and villainy devoid of any sense of conventional morality, infamous both for its boundless stupidity and endless capacity for lulz, then she reaps what she sowed.

Should the people who harassed her be let off the hook?

I never said that, but two points:

1. 4chan is a hive mind. All it takes to bring down the shitstorm is little momentum from a few determined individuals. Anonymous has no face or gender or race. It simply IS. It's less a collection of people and more a force of nature.

2. I know your going to call me out for this sounding like a rape metaphor, but she really was asking for it. This the equivalent of walking into a lion's preserve covered in meat and steak sauce and then acting surprised they attacked you. Trolling feminists is one thing anonymous loves more than bitching about furries.

Machine Man 1992:

DrVornoff:

Machine Man 1992:
Really, if the woman was dumb enough to provoke 4chan, a wretched hive of scum and villainy devoid of any sense of conventional morality, infamous both for its boundless stupidity and endless capacity for lulz, then she reaps what she sowed.

Should the people who harassed her be let off the hook?

I never said that, but two points:

1. 4chan is a hive mind. All it takes to bring down the shitstorm is little momentum from a few determined individuals. Anonymous has no face or gender or race. It simply IS. It's less a collection of people and more a force of nature.

2. I know your going to call me out for this sounding like a rape metaphor, but she really was asking for it. This the equivalent of walking into a lion's preserve covered in meat and steak sauce and then acting surprised they attacked you. Trolling feminists is one thing anonymous loves more than bitching about furries.

The simple fact that you're willing to devote more words to excusing away 4chan and accusing Sarkeesian of provoking them, rather than actually condemning the people who sent the rape and death threats, says a lot about you as a person. There is no context in which the words, "She was asking for it," does not make you sound inhumane. The reason the people on 4chan and Anonymous get away with shit like this is because people like you enable them.

jmarquiso:

Beardly:

TAdamson:
I think you may have this a bit back-to-front boy. While she may have spammed 4-chan she made her target well before any controversy. Indeed she made $24,000 before the animalistic hoard descended upon her (Figuratively I mean.)

If the sexist comments of a few enabled her to leverage another $125,000, well what the bleeding hell did they expect? Sexist attacks on a feminist web-saavy blogger kickstarter? Gold!

How do you not see something wrong with goading a group of known internet misogynists so that she could stir up controversy and play the victim?

As I said earlier - if she was sincere and didn't expect the backlash, they posted terrible misogynistic comments and stirred up the controversy.

If she was baiting them and they took the bait, they posted terrible misogynistic comments and stirred up the controversy.

Either way - they posted terrible misogynistic comments and stirred up the controversy.

Misogyny still happened, and it isn't tempered by the possibility that they may have been baiting them.

I'm not arguing that the misogynistic comments weren't wrong. My point is that if she was baiting them, which seems more likely than her having no idea that 4chan was the way it is, she was doing it so that she could draw sympathetic publicity to her project by looking like a victim.

As I said earlier, what she did is like throwing a rock at a bees' nest so that people will feel bad that you got stung by bees.

Yep, It is clearly unattractive women in movies, games and comics who will save the culture from degradation!
You know what, let's as a protest just will not consume the media, which shows the appeal sexy images. 'K? After all, sex and violence is so unnatural for a human been, right?
Avengers? Oh, sorry, all movies with Scarlett Johansson prohibited from now on. Sorry, too hot, can't help you.
Say no to boobs! Take for a job most ugly candidates regardless of their aptitudes! Everything to prove that you do not think by your dick! Because you constantly have to prove it, yeah.

blalien:

Machine Man 1992:

DrVornoff:

Should the people who harassed her be let off the hook?

I never said that, but two points:

1. 4chan is a hive mind. All it takes to bring down the shitstorm is little momentum from a few determined individuals. Anonymous has no face or gender or race. It simply IS. It's less a collection of people and more a force of nature.

2. I know your going to call me out for this sounding like a rape metaphor, but she really was asking for it. This the equivalent of walking into a lion's preserve covered in meat and steak sauce and then acting surprised they attacked you. Trolling feminists is one thing anonymous loves more than bitching about furries.

The simple fact that you're willing to devote more words to excusing away 4chan and accusing Sarkeesian of provoking them, rather than actually condemning the people who sent the rape and death threats, says a lot about you as a person. There is no context in which the words, "She was asking for it," does not make you sound inhumane. The reason the people on 4chan and Anonymous get away with shit like this is because people like you enable them.

What do you want me to do about it? They are called anonymous for a reason! As in, they have no identity, no central leadership, nothing that I can point at and call them assholes for.

Yes, sending death threats and rape threats is the very definition of not okay, but how the fuck am I supposed to police a group that crashes corporate servers? All I'm saying is that Anons have a (relatively) coherent set of morals and triggers: posting a video of you abusing a cat will cause them to come down on you like the fist of an angry god, posting a video where you bitch about something that can easily be summarized as "15-25 year-old males are the core consumers of video games" will make them bitch right back at you. Combined with the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory, and you have the recipe for sexist shitstorms like this.

Really the argument could be made that anonymous are cowards, owing to the zebra-esque hide-amongst-endless-identical-individuals defense tactic they employ.

maximara:

Hallowed Lady:

maximara:

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

Point taken on the first bit.

The writers didn't seem to understand the main character they were working with, or any of the other characters for that matter.

But one of the writers involved was no less then Yoshio Sakamoto (one of the *creators* of Samus) "The game's story was definitely the product of Mr. Sakamoto at Nintendo. We definitely worked with them on the project, but that was all him." (G4 Media and Kotaku)

It was like what happened with Asprin and his MythAdventures series which after a nearly 10 years hiatus he returned to...and it simply didn't work. Even Conan Doyle had problems making his later Holmes stories consistent with what he had written earlier to the point that some would like to forget that things like "The Mazarin Stone" are part of the canon.

As EC said there were better ways for us to get up to speed with Samus--comm chatter would have been a vast improvement over that inane wooden monotone monologue we did get. It's worse than that Tauren (Kor'kron Primalist) in Warcraft that TotalBiscuit made a joke about.

I agree with all your points here, I know that he was involved but I thought there would be more than one writer. Yoshio Sakamoto kinda screwed up with Other M and there's no good way for saying it. Maybe one of the things to would have been to have her seem less obessed with Adam (I think that was his name), and show him in a better light.

Too all who say there are no strong, reasonable female figures in video games I present this:

image

Admit you are wrong.

blalien:

Machine Man 1992:

DrVornoff:

Should the people who harassed her be let off the hook?

I never said that, but two points:

1. 4chan is a hive mind. All it takes to bring down the shitstorm is little momentum from a few determined individuals. Anonymous has no face or gender or race. It simply IS. It's less a collection of people and more a force of nature.

2. I know your going to call me out for this sounding like a rape metaphor, but she really was asking for it. This the equivalent of walking into a lion's preserve covered in meat and steak sauce and then acting surprised they attacked you. Trolling feminists is one thing anonymous loves more than bitching about furries.

The simple fact that you're willing to devote more words to excusing away 4chan and accusing Sarkeesian of provoking them, rather than actually condemning the people who sent the rape and death threats, says a lot about you as a person. There is no context in which the words, "She was asking for it," does not make you sound inhumane. The reason the people on 4chan and Anonymous get away with shit like this is because people like you enable them.

Lol. The FBI has trouble doing anything about these people and you're asking "Machine Man 1992" to shoulder some responsibility for them. I'd say he took that nonsense pretty well, maybe that says something about the guy.

Some things are so obviously wrong that it's more-or-less redundant to keep re-stating that they're wrong...rape and death threats certainly fall in that category, this would be an even longer and more boring thread if we all had to say it, lest we be accused of not thinking it...

I've seen her do a video about porn-ads on bit-torrent sites. She's not unfamiliar with the internet.

Hallowed Lady:

maximara:

Hallowed Lady:

Point taken on the first bit.

The writers didn't seem to understand the main character they were working with, or any of the other characters for that matter.

But one of the writers involved was no less then Yoshio Sakamoto (one of the *creators* of Samus) "The game's story was definitely the product of Mr. Sakamoto at Nintendo. We definitely worked with them on the project, but that was all him." (G4 Media and Kotaku)

It was like what happened with Asprin and his MythAdventures series which after a nearly 10 years hiatus he returned to...and it simply didn't work. Even Conan Doyle had problems making his later Holmes stories consistent with what he had written earlier to the point that some would like to forget that things like "The Mazarin Stone" are part of the canon.

As EC said there were better ways for us to get up to speed with Samus--comm chatter would have been a vast improvement over that inane wooden monotone monologue we did get. It's worse than that Tauren (Kor'kron Primalist) in Warcraft that TotalBiscuit made a joke about.

I agree with all your points here, I know that he was involved but I thought there would be more than one writer. Yoshio Sakamoto kinda screwed up with Other M and there's no good way for saying it. Maybe one of the things to would have been to have her seem less obessed with Adam (I think that was his name), and show him in a better light.

To be fair to Yoshio Sakamoto as the EC video ("Learning from Other M") shows you also had the political pressures of Teen Ninja, D-Rocket, and Nintendo in the mix. So you have the "Bad Writing" situation of Yoshio Sakamoto having to write around whatever those three had planned for the game.

Then there is the fun issue of game mechanics butting heads with the writing. Sometimes as in WoW it can result in bizarre and sometimes silly situations--if you have ever taken a Worgen through Grizzly Hills you know what I mean. But in Other M this clash was a disaster and the lack of any comm chatter made this already bad situation worse. Instead of the strong independent Samus everyone was expecting we got a woman with seemingly nearly as many (though different) psychological hangups as Sylvanas Windrunner.

Nope.
Bob seriously underestimates the importance of looks. As someone who's been ripped and fat I can tell you the difference is disgusting. I'm a man and when I was fatter than Mario I was easily and readily dismissed many times for many things, little things. Dumb things. Being slimmer/better looking makes an obscene difference and a prettier person will do better, male or female. Dismissing that so out of hand was ridiculous of Bob.

However he's on the money at the end and I think that's the big issue, both portrayals are fantasies but both are male fantasies, empowerment or sexualisation. Those are the offers on the table for guys.
That does need to be addressed and I think we're getting there.

I know this stuff has already been said plenty in the hundreds of comments here, but I think I'll kinda consolidate a few things that people really need to think about here. First of all, Anita Sarkeesian would not be wrong for raising money for a series that aimed to address certain issues of sexism in video games and explore how these problems can be rectified. The problem is, she doesn't do that. All she does is promote the idea that feminists are all angry bitches that hate everything involving men or any implications that men and women are different, which is something that very much gets in the way of civil rights discussion. In essence, she's turning herself into a walking cliche more than constructively talking about female video game tropes, ironically.

Second of all, her entire reason for doing all of this is very obvious. It's very very clear that all she's doing is exploiting her own idiotic opinions, as well as the droves of people that are apologetic towards the previously-mentioned stereotypical feminists that do more to promote feminine dominance than equality of any kind. She's been making videos for quite some time, and her production value will almost certainly not improve now that she's asking for money to do something that she previously did for free. She already had a FRIGGEN STUDIO SETUP with an HD camera! You cannot tell me that she didn't have money, and I seriously can't even begin to understand what she needed $6,000 dollars for anyways. Also, she already has 6 videos in the Tropes VS Women series, with the first one being from March 22, 2011 (and it is bad).

Overall, Sarkeesian is just exploiting the internet, her dumb opinions, and her sexuality to make a quick buck by doing something that hundreds of people have been doing without asking for any money for years now. People that professionally talk into a camera generally aren't asking for large sums of money to increase the "production value" that hasn't been clearly defined as anything specific (eg. lights, better camera, hiring crew members), without offering anything in return.

PercyBoleyn:

PhiMed:
And yes, class privilege was predominant early in our society. Nobody is saying that class, race, health, even beauty privilege don't exist, and they have existed for centuries.

It's still predominant. Class privilege has existed since the dawn of society.

PhiMed:
But as bad as it was to be a poor serf man living at the whim of his feudal lord, it was WORSE to be a poor serf woman

It was? How so? The serf had to do an excruciating ammount of work every day and then go die in whatever war his liege started.

PhiMed:
And just as it's bad to be a short, gay, poor black man with a limp today, a short, gay, poor black woman with a limp is even more disadvantaged. It's how it all intersects.

A short, gay, poor black woman with a limp would have been just as disadvantaged as a short, gay, poor black man with a limp.

PhiMed:
And nobody has made any videos about the masculine issues yet. I'm just saying, there is a right way to go about doing a set of videos that is a COMPLEMENT and not trying to silence Sarkeesian, and then there is the douchebag misogynist way.

So basically, they video makers either glorify her or they're misogynistic pigs. How does that work exactly?

PhiMed:
It's cute that you think that I feel guilty about anything. Somebody doesn't understand privilege.

Men are not priviledged. In fact, women are more priviledged than us in every single way. A white woman born to a middle class family has much more chances to succeed in life than a white male born in the same family. A white woman on the streets has more chances of surviving than a white male on the streets.

In the past it was fairly similar. Go back a hundred years and women generally spent their time taking care of kids and doing household work whilst men were forced to work agonizing hours under the scorching son for hours on end. Men fought for women, hell entire wars were started over them. Imagine how many men died just for that. A woman could advance her social position by marrying a lord, a male could not advance his social position by marrying a lady.

Both genders had it bad and both genders had it good in one way or another. Both genders were subjugated by gender roles and it's only recently that females have managed to break free of it whilst males have remained trapped. Saying that men had it worse than women is simply wrong.

Please edit your post. You've edited me into multiple quotes that are not mine.

DrVornoff:

PhiMed:
When she didn't get the desired reaction IMMEDIATELY, she spammed /b/ so that she could drum up the trolls.

Do you have proof of that?

Multiple screen shots of spammed requests asking for views, yes. It is, of course, anonymous, as you know, so it would take computer skills beyond mine to search the archives for ips to prove it definitively.

Machine Man 1992:
1. 4chan is a hive mind. All it takes to bring down the shitstorm is little momentum from a few determined individuals. Anonymous has no face or gender or race. It simply IS. It's less a collection of people and more a force of nature.

Doesn't mean it should be excused.

2. I know your going to call me out for this sounding like a rape metaphor, but she really was asking for it. This the equivalent of walking into a lion's preserve covered in meat and steak sauce and then acting surprised they attacked you. Trolling feminists is one thing anonymous loves more than bitching about furries.

Yeah, but if the guy survives the lions long enough for help to arrive, he's still taken to the hospital.

DrVornoff:

Machine Man 1992:
1. 4chan is a hive mind. All it takes to bring down the shitstorm is little momentum from a few determined individuals. Anonymous has no face or gender or race. It simply IS. It's less a collection of people and more a force of nature.

Doesn't mean it should be excused.

2. I know your going to call me out for this sounding like a rape metaphor, but she really was asking for it. This the equivalent of walking into a lion's preserve covered in meat and steak sauce and then acting surprised they attacked you. Trolling feminists is one thing anonymous loves more than bitching about furries.

Yeah, but if the guy survives the lions long enough for help to arrive, he's still taken to the hospital.

He's not excusing it. He's only saying that a known quantity is a known quantity.

This is becoming beyond ridiculous.

maximara:

Hallowed Lady:
Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

I just gotta say here, I remember an advertisement for one of the Lara Croft games (2, I think) in which it was heavily advertised "Lara gets more outfits this time!" I really don't recall that being a selling point for male characters in any game I can remember. It was like "Lara Croft Barbie"! Look, her clothes change!

Ramzal:
Too all who say there are no strong, reasonable female figures in video games I present this:

image

Admit you are wrong.

We (and Anita Sarkeesian) aren't saying there aren't any. We're saying there aren't enough of them.

LadyRhian:

maximara:

Hallowed Lady:
Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

I just gotta say here, I remember an advertisement for one of the Lara Croft games (2, I think) in which it was heavily advertised "Lara gets more outfits this time!" I really don't recall that being a selling point for male characters in any game I can remember. It was like "Lara Croft Barbie"! Look, her clothes change!

Sounds like _Lara Croft: Tomb Raider - The Angel of Darkness_ a point Yahtzee said the series "died". The second game was likely the sequel _Tomb Raider: Legend_ which was made by a different team.

It must be remembered that the original team had tried the end the series ala Conan Doyle by killing off their creation but they quickly came under pressure to bring her back. We got the prequel "Hound of the Baskervilles" treatment in _Tomb Raider Chronicles_ followed by the above Angel of Darkness and we can see where that went.

So was this the fault of the developers who knew if they continued Lara would degenerate into cheesecake or the fans for demanding the character be effectively driven into the ground?

Beardly:

As I said earlier, what she did is like throwing a rock at a bees' nest so that people will feel bad that you got stung by bees.

Again, whether she did it or not, it still happened, and that is a problem.

She may share some responsibility in the whole ordeal, sure. However, that's not the problem. When it happened, what did people do about it? They excused them. "That's 4Chan" "I'm tired of this topic." "Why does she need so much money?" What could they have done? "You know what, that's not okay." Those that have done that are accused of being white knights.

In a free society we need views we disagree with. Yes, even misogynist views. I think we are perfectly allowed to do so. The place for criticizing the ideas is after the product is created, not from an intro video - you know like people have been doing with her Bayonetta video. Dissecting these existing videos is perfectly acceptable. I may disagree with their analysis, or may even disagree with her video, but you know what? There are thousands of youtube channels and podcasts I can listen too. When I disagree with something and feel compelled to talk about it, I do my best to write them in a way that's not abusive and make my point. I may fail at some point, but you win some and you lose some.

My own criticism of her videos so far is that they take ideas further than reality, and is dismissive and snarky - something she shares with the rhetoric of the genre of "youtube vlog". I want to shout to the screen, "drop the sarcasm and snark, you're an academic, educate!" In other words, she goes about her work in a way I don't like, but it obviously attracts an audience. So yes, I disagree with her on many points, too. I also agree with her in others. I'm not going to change her wiki page to express that.

Some brought up Extra Credits, Zero Punctuation, and the Game Overthinker himself - all of which have been paid or eventually been paid by an entity. Some began free, and were picked up eventually. Extra Credits even ran a crowdfunded fundraiser of their own.

As for "exploiting her opinions", well, that's how Kickstarter works. People provide a project that other people want to see, and they donate money - no - they "invest" money in exchange for various products and services that represent their contribution. Or do you not believe people should give to a product that they value? You basically said - "She's exploiting the people who want what she's selling."

Me, I'm not a contributor to her project. I do contribute to ideas I like or products I want to see the light of day.

There are so many projects on Kickstarter I don't like, are beating dead horses, and have opinions I really dislike. When the product is finished I would probably do a point by point blog post dissecting why it's bad, or finding out that I may even agree. I'll give them that chance.

1) Misogyny happened through harassment, threats, and the like. If that's not okay, express disgust at that.

2) You disagree with her points, fine. IN an article discussing her views OVER an article discussing the response is a more appropriate place to talk about it. MovieBob says himself - IN THIS VIDEO - that he watched her videos and there are some points he may take issue with.

3) While I may sound like I'm advocating restricting free speech, I'm talking about the best way to handle it. To make her views the issue over the harassment - in a thread about the harassment - may make it sound like you're defending the harassment.

Hallowed Lady:

I'll also note that she has apparantly tried to review the amount of sexist in a game she didn't bother playing. That alone screams 'not taking this seriously' or at least trying to make a strawman arguement. If that is anything to go by, I doubt she'll put the research or effort into her series and it will be shallow and pointless. But I hope that I am wrong.

Technically she was criticizing the ad campaign, not the game, and I do agree she's too dismissive of the game itself.

That being said, the ad campaign for this game had the same effect on me - I found it distasteful and didn't want the game. Multiple reviews afterward said it was more than it was selling, and so that sparked my interest.

DrVornoff:
Didn't say they were.

Then why do you care? The "trolls" are not the people you should be worried about if you want to have an actual conversation regarding her.

DrVornoff:
You're not helping.

Hey, I've got nothing against having husbando's so no worries here mate.

DrVornoff:
If you want it to be clearer, I provide a detailed explanation on page 2 of the Feminism Ad Nauseum thread over at R&P.

What does generalizing malekind have to do with anything?

DrVornoff:
Okay so your problem is that she didn't need the money.

No, my problem is that she isn't transparent enough, that she lied to her audience and that she purposefully baited a community of trolls in order to paint herself as some sort of victim of male aggression in order to generate sympathy for her "cause". Did the other Kickstarters do that?

DrVornoff:
Matt from LRR pointed out based on the photo of her studio space that the initial estimates on her lighting and computer were probably excessive. There is in fact room for improvement.

Dude she's not making a fucking documentary to be broadcasted to the general population, she's making a bunch of YouTube videos and in that regard she has WAY and I mean WAY fucking better equipment than 90% of the YouTube video makers. She got 160k to make a bunch of YouTube videos, this guy got 41k to make an actual documentary.

DrVornoff:
It was also pointed out by jmarquiso that this is not that unusual. A lot of projects get funded excessively to make things they were already doing for free.

And what makes you think I don't have a problem with that? The fact that Kickstarter allows people this much freedom with the money fucking sickens me. It's one of the many fucking reasons why I'll never donate unless I know exactly where my money will be going towards.

DrVornoff:
Is it the concept itself that bothers you?

If you had actually bothered to read all of Tenmar's posts you would've been aware of the fact that there are numerous reasons why I, and numerous other people on the web, have a problem with her Kickstarter.

DrVornoff:
Or just this one case? And if the latter, why her specifically?

"So you hate Hitler right?"
"Yeah, he's a fucktard"
"WELL WHAT ABOUT STALIN HMMMMMMMMMMM? HE ALSO KILLED PEOPLE AND HE WAS ALSO JUST AS BAD AS HITLER. YOU LOVE STALIN DON'T YOU HUH? YEAH I BET YOU DO BECAUSE IF YOU CRITICIZE HITLER YOU HAVE TO MAKE A BIG FUCKING LIST AND CRITICIZE EVERY SINGLE OTHER MASS MURDERER IN HISTORY OTHERWISE YOU'RE JUST SINGLING HIM OUT."

DrVornoff:
First of all, I wasn't talking to you.

Whelp, guess my post doesn't apply then.

DrVornoff:
Second, my concern is that people seem to think that the spamming of 4chan absolves these people of any guilt

Really? Who said that? Oh, right, YOU DID!

DrVornoff:
Spamming is a dick move.

Why are you so eager to absolve her of any and all responsibility? She went into a fucking lion's nest covered in meat and acted surprised when the lions fucking ate her. Of course, that analogy assumes she wasn't aware that the lion's were dangerous or that they would attempt to rip her to fucking shreds.

She baited 4chan to garner support for her project. That's the fucking truth, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, and you're letting her off the hook just like that. I wonder why? I mean, what she did was disingenuous and absolutely disgusting, it takes away any shred of integrity she and her "team" might have had and, instead of trying to address that issue, you're trying to switch the fucking goalpoast as if that would change anything.

DrVornoff:
But I see harassing people and trying to silence them as worse, so that is the problem I'm going to go after first.

SHE WANTED 4CHAN TO HARASS AND SILENCE HER. WAKE THE FUCK UP!

4chan didn't even harass and "silence" her at first. People actually tried to converse with her but apparently she wasn't in the mood for that and called everyone trolls. Then she started spamming her stuff on /v/ and shit hit the fan. I guess if you can't get what you want from the more respectable boards and you're too afraid to spam /b/ because they might ruin your life you might as well go for the board that's half /b/tard and half fourteen year old kids trying to act cool.

Bob,
Being page 26-ish of the comments means the chance of you personally reading this may be low, but I'd like to take a moment to write this as if it was to you personally, and not the general forum audience.

Firstly, I am one of those people who is anti-feminist, and unfortunately, my reasons for being such would turn this into a silly argument, so take it on faith that though I am anti-feminist, there is a good reason for it, and I cannot be dissuaded by *ahem* rational argument... yeah, not going to go there.

Anyway, the point is, your last point in the video is dangerously wrong, and falls on assumptions of fair play and generosity that just do not exist in the present modern day. Unfortunately, video games with a disproportionate view on women are going out of style, mostly due to actions like this one. 'Mature' publishers will not use sexualized female characters for any reason, reducing them to bland characters with no character flaws. This last point is important, in that they will also not show women who are fat, lazy, or stupid, as female gamers are just as offended by a lack of competence in their female 'role-models'. This overwhelmingly approved-of opinion is reducing the variety of female roles, not enhancing it.

Meanwhile, as you may have guessed by my dislike of the feminist agenda, I like panty raider 12, and I would like to see it come out. But this is in jeopardy! The above point, that female characters cannot be sexualized without a lasting negative impact in a large market segment(and yes, females are a large market segment, this is something we all have to acknowledge. Even if they are about 10% or so, and I am pulling that number out of thin air, and low-balling it massively, that demographic still has a large buying power, more than that of the 30-something white males who grew up playing mario, </digression>). Back on point, this action can cause studios to change games, and even close shops.

Warning, this next paragraph is decidedly R rated, foul language, and reference to wikipedia pages.
I have always been a fan of Illusion. From the name, most feminists would object to Battle Raper 2, which I know 90% of the audience will never try from the name, was actually a surprisingly competent fighting game, which, though the AI was braindead, required a surprising amount of skill to master. During the Rapelay controversy, I was aghast(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay#Controversy). How could feminists pull a game from the shelves, especially one by a company I enjoyed. Not only that, this was the work of the American feminists, attacking the game industry of a foreign country, and removing not only a game, but in the end, the whole genre. Again, to repeat this, the genre around this game basically unraveled over night, including legislation against it. The feminists can, and have, passed legislation moderating the content of games, and will do so in our country if a sufficiently polarizing issue presents itself. And unfortunately, I'm unable to believe that a group of angry feminists will truly consider the qualities of a game like AG2*(lookit up if you want to know) before trying to get it removed, not from their own game libraries, but from our homes.

The important point to this, Bob, is that feminists can in fact destroy panty raider 12, and they already have; just not here. Our feminists, not theirs, have already removed a genre, and the effects they've had on female video game characters in the US is both massive and disruptive. Free market forces may balance the sexism war, but only once people stop rocking the boat, forcing the market to do perverse things to its characters to satisfy what is basically a standing order to boycott. All I would like is that *some* games be allowed to sexualize women, but in this political climate, and especially with voices like yours, this will not happen, and can not happen. Until we, as a culture, male and female, stop putting restrictions on the freedoms of developers, this wacky system will continue, and I will never be able to see the day DoA:X3 is released, as the female portion of the market says this game should not exist.

-Anon
----------------------------------------

I'm always a lurker, as I usually agree with the majority opinion, and I take a long time to write one of these, usually several hours looking over the various spelling and grammar issues, and making sure my tone is correct. But I had to make this point very clear, as I apparently hate people being wrong on the internet so much I wasted two hours of my time writing a reply to a video.
-I registered to make this point

*AG2 was one of my favorite games of all time. AG3, not so much.
Feel free to beat me up in the comments below, I don't plan on ever checking this forum again.
and if at this point, you still don't know why I take personal offence at the National Organization of Women, as well as Women's Forum Australia, and wish I could destroy everything they stand for, you haven't been reading.

"LadyRhian"
We (and Anita Sarkeesian) aren't saying there aren't any. We're saying there aren't enough of them.

Really? I will give a few more examples. *Clears throat... inhales.*

1)Titania: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance.
2)Mia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
3)Nephenee: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
4)Lethe: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
5)Lucia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
6)Jill: Fire emblem Path of Radiance
7)Princess/Queen Elincia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
8)Lyn: Fire Emblem Blazing sword
9)April Ryan: Longest Journey
10)Alyx Vance: Half Life 2
11)Ashe: Final Fantasy XII
12)Tifa: Final Fantasy VII
13)Quistis: Final Fantasy VIII
14)Edea Kramer: Final Fantasy VIII
15)Lightning: Final Fantasy XIII
16)Agrais: Final Fantasy Tactics
17)Beatrix: FInal fantasy IX
18)Lara Croft: Tomb Raider Anniversary (If you cannot see how humanized she is in this game, I can't help you.)
19)Claire: Resident evil
20)Jill: Resident evil
21)Sheva: Resident evil (Honestly, she's saved Chris's backside so many times. And is more capable than he is and can keep her head on straight easier)
22)Lucia: Chrono Trigger
23)Kidd: Chrono Cross
24)Sarah Lyons: Fallout 3
25)Hope's Mother: Final Fantasy XIII
26)Ruby: Wet
27)Amaterasu: Okami
28)Celes Cher: Final Fantasy VI
29)Samus: From every Metroid game OUTSIDE of other M. (She isn't portrayed very much in most games, however Metroid Fusion and the comics do a great job of doing so.)
30)Nel: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
31)Mirage Kaos: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
32)Maria Trador: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
33)Myuria Tionysus: Star Ocean The Last Hope

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

Honestly, that's 33 women I can think of in games off the top of my mind who are strong, capable, do NOT need a man around to save them and influential. Going so far as saying that there should be no shame in looking up to them.

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