The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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maximara:

LadyRhian:

maximara:

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

I just gotta say here, I remember an advertisement for one of the Lara Croft games (2, I think) in which it was heavily advertised "Lara gets more outfits this time!" I really don't recall that being a selling point for male characters in any game I can remember. It was like "Lara Croft Barbie"! Look, her clothes change!

Sounds like _Lara Croft: Tomb Raider - The Angel of Darkness_ a point Yahtzee said the series "died". The second game was likely the sequel _Tomb Raider: Legend_ which was made by a different team.

It must be remembered that the original team had tried the end the series ala Conan Doyle by killing off their creation but they quickly came under pressure to bring her back. We got the prequel "Hound of the Baskervilles" treatment in _Tomb Raider Chronicles_ followed by the above Angel of Darkness and we can see where that went.

So was this the fault of the developers who knew if they continued Lara would degenerate into cheesecake or the fans for demanding the character be effectively driven into the ground?

No, it actually *was* Tomb Raider II, and the commercials even had a runway-style part where Lara shows off her new costumes. So... ever seen a game with a male character that does that?

LadyRhian:

maximara:

LadyRhian:

I just gotta say here, I remember an advertisement for one of the Lara Croft games (2, I think) in which it was heavily advertised "Lara gets more outfits this time!" I really don't recall that being a selling point for male characters in any game I can remember. It was like "Lara Croft Barbie"! Look, her clothes change!

Sounds like _Lara Croft: Tomb Raider - The Angel of Darkness_ a point Yahtzee said the series "died". The second game was likely the sequel _Tomb Raider: Legend_ which was made by a different team.

It must be remembered that the original team had tried the end the series ala Conan Doyle by killing off their creation but they quickly came under pressure to bring her back. We got the prequel "Hound of the Baskervilles" treatment in _Tomb Raider Chronicles_ followed by the above Angel of Darkness and we can see where that went.

So was this the fault of the developers who knew if they continued Lara would degenerate into cheesecake or the fans for demanding the character be effectively driven into the ground?

No, it actually *was* Tomb Raider II, and the commercials even had a runway-style part where Lara shows off her new costumes. So... ever seen a game with a male character that does that?

Prince of Persia. The constantly showed him with less and less clothes as the commercial progressed. Devil May Cry 3 with Dante's lack of shirt AND underwear. And trust me. A lack of underwear is not for the sake of male power fantasy. Dante is fangirl bait and everyone knows it.

Ramzal:

"LadyRhian"
We (and Anita Sarkeesian) aren't saying there aren't any. We're saying there aren't enough of them.

Really? I will give a few more examples. *Clears throat... inhales.*

1)Titania: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance.
2)Mia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
3)Nephenee: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
4)Lethe: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
5)Lucia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
6)Jill: Fire emblem Path of Radiance
7)Princess/Queen Elincia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
8)Lyn: Fire Emblem Blazing sword
9)April Ryan: Longest Journey
10)Alyx Vance: Half Life 2
11)Ashe: Final Fantasy XII
12)Tifa: Final Fantasy VII
13)Quistis: Final Fantasy VIII
14)Edea Kramer: Final Fantasy VIII
15)Lightning: Final Fantasy XIII
16)Agrais: Final Fantasy Tactics
17)Beatrix: FInal fantasy IX
18)Lara Croft: Tomb Raider Anniversary (If you cannot see how humanized she is in this game, I can't help you.)
19)Claire: Resident evil
20)Jill: Resident evil
21)Sheva: Resident evil (Honestly, she's saved Chris's backside so many times. And is more capable than he is and can keep her head on straight easier)
22)Lucia: Chrono Trigger
23)Kidd: Chrono Cross
24)Sarah Lyons: Fallout 3
25)Hope's Mother: Final Fantasy XIII
26)Ruby: Wet
27)Amaterasu: Okami
28)Celes Cher: Final Fantasy VI
29)Samus: From every Metroid game OUTSIDE of other M. (She isn't portrayed very much in most games, however Metroid Fusion and the comics do a great job of doing so.)
30)Nel: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
31)Mirage Kaos: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
32)Maria Trador: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
33)Myuria Tionysus: Star Ocean The Last Hope

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

Honestly, that's 33 women I can think of in games off the top of my mind who are strong, capable, do NOT need a man around to save them and influential. Going so far as saying that there should be no shame in looking up to them.

I'll give you that I have heard of a few games on this list, and a few characters in some of those games. But, basically, what you seem to be saying is, "Japanese Games do fully realized female characters better than Western Games do." And that you had to list one Lara Croft game out of the - how many games starring her are there out there?- just makes it even better. And how many fully realized and believable male characters could you list off the top of your head?

For Western games, we have: Resident Evil, Half Life 2, One Tomb Raider Game, Fallout 3- and to be honest, I never heard of Longest Journey or Wet (I looked them up, and apparently, it's Rubi, not Ruby). So, from Western games (and I am counting the Norwegian-made "Longest Journey" as "Western") that's a grand total of six characters. Six. Versus how many male characters? And Lara Croft from one game out of Nine. That's pitiful.

Ramzal:

LadyRhian:

maximara:

Sounds like _Lara Croft: Tomb Raider - The Angel of Darkness_ a point Yahtzee said the series "died". The second game was likely the sequel _Tomb Raider: Legend_ which was made by a different team.

It must be remembered that the original team had tried the end the series ala Conan Doyle by killing off their creation but they quickly came under pressure to bring her back. We got the prequel "Hound of the Baskervilles" treatment in _Tomb Raider Chronicles_ followed by the above Angel of Darkness and we can see where that went.

So was this the fault of the developers who knew if they continued Lara would degenerate into cheesecake or the fans for demanding the character be effectively driven into the ground?

No, it actually *was* Tomb Raider II, and the commercials even had a runway-style part where Lara shows off her new costumes. So... ever seen a game with a male character that does that?

Prince of Persia. The constantly showed him with less and less clothes as the commercial progressed. Devil May Cry 3 with Dante's lack of shirt AND underwear. And trust me. A lack of underwear is not for the sake of male power fantasy. Dante is fangirl bait and everyone knows it.

Were they saying, "And look, ladies! He loses his clothing!"? And which Prince of Persia was this for? And which Devil May Cry? All the ads I have seen him in have him pretty fully clothed.

Edited to add: like this one:

I'm going out to pick up my Dad's medications from the grocery store now... try not to overwhelm the thread with replies to me before I get back.

Seneschal:
To those here that think Sarkeesian and Bob are raising a fuss over nothing, I urge you to use your imagination for just a second and imagine the following situation. I know this is challenging since the straight white man never has to step into the shoes of "the other", because society has unjustly pandered only to his whims, but please, for the sake of argument:

What if, hypothetically, every single mainstream video-game and facet of gamer culture was from the cultural perspective of gay males? Say, for example, the gay male version of Bayonetta would be a game with a dashing straight guy constantly forced into awkward homoerotic situations, that can only gain superpowers by kissing other men, and that needs to rip his shirt off, wear assless leather pants, and put on a ball gag just to use his special attacks. Imagine that there is no opposite to that - if you want a game from a straight male perspective, you're better of with neutered stylized casual games. This approach would not only be oppressive to straight males, by assuming that they exist only for the pleasure of gay men, but also to gay males, by assuming every single one in the audience is an exploitative, sex-crazed fetishist.

That is how females feel when playing 90% of modern mainstream games. They have every right to demand to be included and equally represented.

I have to be honest with you,that game sounds awesome and I would buy it in a heartbeat. Also I'm a white heterosexual male.

LadyRhian:

Ramzal:

"LadyRhian"
We (and Anita Sarkeesian) aren't saying there aren't any. We're saying there aren't enough of them.

Really? I will give a few more examples. *Clears throat... inhales.*

1)Titania: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance.
2)Mia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
3)Nephenee: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
4)Lethe: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
5)Lucia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
6)Jill: Fire emblem Path of Radiance
7)Princess/Queen Elincia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
8)Lyn: Fire Emblem Blazing sword
9)April Ryan: Longest Journey
10)Alyx Vance: Half Life 2
11)Ashe: Final Fantasy XII
12)Tifa: Final Fantasy VII
13)Quistis: Final Fantasy VIII
14)Edea Kramer: Final Fantasy VIII
15)Lightning: Final Fantasy XIII
16)Agrais: Final Fantasy Tactics
17)Beatrix: FInal fantasy IX
18)Lara Croft: Tomb Raider Anniversary (If you cannot see how humanized she is in this game, I can't help you.)
19)Claire: Resident evil
20)Jill: Resident evil
21)Sheva: Resident evil (Honestly, she's saved Chris's backside so many times. And is more capable than he is and can keep her head on straight easier)
22)Lucia: Chrono Trigger
23)Kidd: Chrono Cross
24)Sarah Lyons: Fallout 3
25)Hope's Mother: Final Fantasy XIII
26)Ruby: Wet
27)Amaterasu: Okami
28)Celes Cher: Final Fantasy VI
29)Samus: From every Metroid game OUTSIDE of other M. (She isn't portrayed very much in most games, however Metroid Fusion and the comics do a great job of doing so.)
30)Nel: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
31)Mirage Kaos: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
32)Maria Trador: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
33)Myuria Tionysus: Star Ocean The Last Hope

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

Honestly, that's 33 women I can think of in games off the top of my mind who are strong, capable, do NOT need a man around to save them and influential. Going so far as saying that there should be no shame in looking up to them.

I'll give you that I have heard of a few games on this list, and a few characters in some of those games. But, basically, what you seem to be saying is, "Japanese Games do fully realized female characters better than Western Games do." And that you had to list one Lara Croft game out of the - how many games starring her are there out there?- just makes it even better. And how many fully realized and believable male characters could you list off the top of your head?

Okay. Let me stop you right there. I never said "Japanese games do fully realized female characters better than Western games do." My game library has an 8:2 ration of Japanese games to Western games. I have not played every game in existence and frankly, I buy games off of what I think may interest me for one reason or another. I didn't put words in your mouth, please do me the favor and do not do it to me.

As far as Lara goes. Yes I do realize that, however I haven't played many of them past 1, 2, 3 and Anniversary. My wife has played them all, and said that while yes, she does have a body that shows--she informs me that she does in fact have a solid personality. Lara is highly intelligent, cunning, capable, brave, and a scholar. (Albeit a scholar with guns, but a scholar none the less.) I cannot comprehend why women hate a character who is as intelligent as Lara Croft. The woman knows over 13 languages. You can't be lacking and do that.

As far as males go? You want my honest answer? like... 7 of them.

1) Cloud: FInal fantasy 7.

Yes, he is emotional. However considering he lost his memory, lost his mother and his own hero that motivated his goals in life killed his mother---that gives him reason to be.

2) Dominic Santiago: Gears of war.

As someone who's been to war and I have a wife, I can understand Dominic fully. He is deep.

3) Squall: Final Fantasy 8

4) Ramza: Final Fantasy Tactics

5) Edge Maverick: Star Ocean the last hope.

He blew up an alternate Earth by trying to help prevent the world to falling due to nuclear warfare and his actions caused the explosion of that earth. And while everyone tried to state "It's okay, it's not your fault." He responded that his actions caused the deaths of every animal and human on a -planet- despite how well meaning it was and that he is responsible. This hung on him for a long time and he still never forgave himself, but he accepted it.

6) Ike: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance/ Radiant Dawn.

7) Solid Snake: Metal Gear/Metal gear Solid.

Truth be told, the majority of men in games tend to be idiotic. Doing the same actions at times without ever stopping and questioning why they are doing it in the first place, or considering what their actions are causing. Mainly just there to hit things half the time.

For Western games, we have: Resident Evil, Half Life 2, One Tomb Raider Game, Fallout 3- and to be honest, I never heard of Longest Journey or Wet (I looked them up, and apparently, it's Rubi, not Ruby. So, from Western games (and I am counting the Norwegian-made "Longest Journey" as "Western") that's a grand total of six characters. Six. Versus how many male characters? And Lara Croft from one game out of Nine. That's pitiful.

However, you are thinning the heard by separating western and eastern games. It's--and sorry to say this---a tad bit nit picky. I see a game as a game. My selection of games stem from what I am interested in rather than who developed it and where it came from.

LadyRhian:

Ramzal:

LadyRhian:

No, it actually *was* Tomb Raider II, and the commercials even had a runway-style part where Lara shows off her new costumes. So... ever seen a game with a male character that does that?

Prince of Persia. The constantly showed him with less and less clothes as the commercial progressed. Devil May Cry 3 with Dante's lack of shirt AND underwear. And trust me. A lack of underwear is not for the sake of male power fantasy. Dante is fangirl bait and everyone knows it.

Were they saying, "And look, ladies! He loses his clothing!"? And which Prince of Persia was this for? And which Devil May Cry? All the ads I have seen him in have him pretty fully clothed.

Edited to add: like this one:

I said devil may cry 3. 3. Not 1.

image

Note the lack of shirt and underwear.

without jacket:

image

And I am referring to Sands of Time prince of Persia. Throughout the commercial it switches to the prince with a shirt or the prince without a shirt. Even past that, this is a subject of subtlety and obvious. But let me throw a wrench in here. What if---some women liked seeing sexy revealing clothing as much as men did. And it is not impossible, my wife enjoys a lack of clothing on women more often than I do. And she can't be the only one out there.

Unless there is something wrong with bisexual women liking the sights on another woman now.

DeltasDix:

Seneschal:
To those here that think Sarkeesian and Bob are raising a fuss over nothing, I urge you to use your imagination for just a second and imagine the following situation. I know this is challenging since the straight white man never has to step into the shoes of "the other", because society has unjustly pandered only to his whims, but please, for the sake of argument:

What if, hypothetically, every single mainstream video-game and facet of gamer culture was from the cultural perspective of gay males? Say, for example, the gay male version of Bayonetta would be a game with a dashing straight guy constantly forced into awkward homoerotic situations, that can only gain superpowers by kissing other men, and that needs to rip his shirt off, wear assless leather pants, and put on a ball gag just to use his special attacks. Imagine that there is no opposite to that - if you want a game from a straight male perspective, you're better of with neutered stylized casual games. This approach would not only be oppressive to straight males, by assuming that they exist only for the pleasure of gay men, but also to gay males, by assuming every single one in the audience is an exploitative, sex-crazed fetishist.

That is how females feel when playing 90% of modern mainstream games. They have every right to demand to be included and equally represented.

I have to be honest with you,that game sounds awesome and I would buy it in a heartbeat. Also I'm a white heterosexual male.

As a dark brown heterosexual male, I would buy that game. If it has the same gameplay mechanics as Bayonetta, I would buy it as I enjoyed Sarah-Palin-Gone-Wild. And would take those actions has hilariously blown out of proportion but in stride due to it's wackiness. Like I do with Sarah Palin's Awesome Adventure.

Ramzal:

LadyRhian:

Ramzal:

Snip

Snip

Snip

I wanted to update the list a bit as well:

I do believe you mentioned most female characters, but have some more:

1. The Boss - MGS3
2. Yuna FFX
3. Terra FF6
4. Aerith FF7 + Crisis Core

Now, fully realized AND believable male characters:

1. MGS Snake / Big Boss.

2. Zack Fair - Crisis Core FFVII

3. Cloud Strife - FFVII

4. Squall - FFVIII

5. Ramza Beoulf - FFTWoTL

6. The guy from Silent Hill 2

7. that guy from Shenmue

huh, that's about it, for believable male characters that aren't just slabs of meat with guns or weapons.

Ramzal:

DeltasDix:

Seneschal:
To those here that think Sarkeesian and Bob are raising a fuss over nothing, I urge you to use your imagination for just a second and imagine the following situation. I know this is challenging since the straight white man never has to step into the shoes of "the other", because society has unjustly pandered only to his whims, but please, for the sake of argument:

What if, hypothetically, every single mainstream video-game and facet of gamer culture was from the cultural perspective of gay males? Say, for example, the gay male version of Bayonetta would be a game with a dashing straight guy constantly forced into awkward homoerotic situations, that can only gain superpowers by kissing other men, and that needs to rip his shirt off, wear assless leather pants, and put on a ball gag just to use his special attacks. Imagine that there is no opposite to that - if you want a game from a straight male perspective, you're better of with neutered stylized casual games. This approach would not only be oppressive to straight males, by assuming that they exist only for the pleasure of gay men, but also to gay males, by assuming every single one in the audience is an exploitative, sex-crazed fetishist.

That is how females feel when playing 90% of modern mainstream games. They have every right to demand to be included and equally represented.

I have to be honest with you,that game sounds awesome and I would buy it in a heartbeat. Also I'm a white heterosexual male.

As a dark brown heterosexual male, I would buy that game. If it has the same gameplay mechanics as Bayonetta, I would buy it as I enjoyed Sarah-Palin-Gone-Wild. And would take those actions has hilariously blown out of proportion but in stride due to it's wackiness. Like I do with Sarah Palin's Awesome Adventure.

I laughed through every second of that post, and I hope to god someone makes that game.

PercyBoleyn:
Then why do you care? The "trolls" are not the people you should be worried about if you want to have an actual conversation regarding her.

My experience has been that for the best conversation to take place, you need to remove the people who are more interested in screaming and being the winner than in arriving at an agreement.

What does generalizing malekind have to do with anything?

You wanted an explanation for why I said what I did. I provided it. Now you don't want it? I'm confused.

No, my problem is that she isn't transparent enough, that she lied to her audience and that she purposefully baited a community of trolls in order to paint herself as some sort of victim of male aggression in order to generate sympathy for her "cause". Did the other Kickstarters do that?

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. What do you want to see be done about this?

Dude she's not making a fucking documentary to be broadcasted to the general population, she's making a bunch of YouTube videos and in that regard she has WAY and I mean WAY fucking better equipment than 90% of the YouTube video makers. She got 160k to make a bunch of YouTube videos, this guy got 41k to make an actual documentary.

Allegedly, she's planning on expanding the project to make use of the excess funds. I've decided to take a position of, "Wait and see."

And what makes you think I don't have a problem with that? The fact that Kickstarter allows people this much freedom with the money fucking sickens me. It's one of the many fucking reasons why I'll never donate unless I know exactly where my money will be going towards.

Again, we're making progress. Legit complaint. Could you give me a quick shakedown of your overall opinion of crowdfunding in general.

"So you hate Hitler right?"
"Yeah, he's a fucktard"
"WELL WHAT ABOUT STALIN HMMMMMMMMMMM? HE ALSO KILLED PEOPLE AND HE WAS ALSO JUST AS BAD AS HITLER. YOU LOVE STALIN DON'T YOU HUH? YEAH I BET YOU DO BECAUSE IF YOU CRITICIZE HITLER YOU HAVE TO MAKE A BIG FUCKING LIST AND CRITICIZE EVERY SINGLE OTHER MASS MURDERER IN HISTORY OTHERWISE YOU'RE JUST SINGLING HIM OUT."

We can do without the histrionics, thank you.

Really? Who said that? Oh, right, YOU DID!

Alright. I have not seen anyone explicitly state this. It's a concern I had because I felt that people didn't appear to be taking the harassment as an issue. Some of them seemed to just want to vent about feminism, or their personal problems with Sarkeesian, and I worried that the thread of how abuse is not okay was getting lost. It started to feel as if people were apathetic toward the idea of online abuse, as long as it wasn't happening to them.

Over-reaction on my part? Could be. But please try to understand my concern.

Why are you so eager to absolve her of any and all responsibility? She went into a fucking lion's nest covered in meat and acted surprised when the lions fucking ate her. Of course, that analogy assumes she wasn't aware that the lion's were dangerous or that they would attempt to rip her to fucking shreds.

She baited 4chan to garner support for her project. That's the fucking truth, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, and you're letting her off the hook just like that. I wonder why? I mean, what she did was disingenuous and absolutely disgusting, it takes away any shred of integrity she and her "team" might have had and, instead of trying to address that issue, you're trying to switch the fucking goalpoast as if that would change anything.

No. It's just not a priority for me to go after it. If she wants to destroy her credibility, let the audience crucify her for it. I'm more disturbed by the fact that it was actually possible to spam a site and that kind of reaction would actually happen. What she did was wrong, I don't deny that. You're right that she was wrong to do so, and I agree. I'm just a bit frightened by the fact that such a reaction from 4chan could be expected.

SHE WANTED 4CHAN TO HARASS AND SILENCE HER. WAKE THE FUCK UP!

Again, please calm down. I'm trying to be polite and don't appreciate the constant histrionics.

DrVornoff:

Giant Snip

Just one thing, concerning 4chan:

A stranger comes to your favourite website and starts spamming it with a video begging for money.
You try to engage said stranger in a discussion, upon which the stranger starts calling you trolls, which is quite insulting, really.

The stranger still continues to spam.

What kind of reaction would one expect under such circumstances?

I do believe, that, since the stranger came to your site and started spamming and insulting you, hostility is not only to be expected but also justified.

If I was to log into a feminist forum and start spamming about men's rights and how I need money to make a documentary about men's rights and then proceeded to insult everyone seeking discussion with me, would still accuse the members of said forum of being misandrious if they finally gave in and started insulting me?

Ramzal:

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

You're confusing video game characters with actual people. Women who make conscientious decisions about their bodies and what to put on them are empowered. But video game characters don't make decisions about what they wear; the people designing them do, and those people are typically men. Too much emphasis on the sexuality of female characters is degrading to women.

maximara:

Hallowed Lady:
Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

E:

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

yeah about that:

image

DrVornoff:
My experience has been that for the best conversation to take place, you need to remove the people who are more interested in screaming and being the winner than in arriving at an agreement.

And that has to do with making wild unfounded claims about people you aren't even having a conversation with how?

DrVornoff:
You wanted an explanation for why I said what I did. I provided it. Now you don't want it? I'm confused.

But you didn't explain, you overgeneralized and failed to provide any evidence to support your claims. It's no different than what Blahb does and honestly, I considered you above him.

DrVornoff:
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. What do you want to see be done about this?

There's nothing that can be done. People were already tricked by her bullshit.

DrVornoff:
Allegedly, she's planning on expanding the project to make use of the excess funds. I've decided to take a position of, "Wait and see."

Expanding it how? She's still making fucking YouTube videos. She had equipment that FAR surpassed other YouTuber's. There was literally no fucking reason for her to need even a thousand dollars to make her video series.

DrVornoff:
Again, we're making progress. Legit complaint. Could you give me a quick shakedown of your overall opinion of crowdfunding in general.

Not a fan.

DrVornoff:
We can do without the histrionics, thank you.

Well, people DO single out Hitler when they talk about mass murderers do they not?

DrVornoff:
Alright. I have not seen anyone explicitly state this. It's a concern I had because I felt that people didn't appear to be taking the harassment as an issue.

She wanted to be harassed. Why should anyone take issue with it?

DrVornoff:
Some of them seemed to just want to vent about feminism, or their personal problems with Sarkeesian, and I worried that the thread of how abuse is not okay was getting lost.

Yeah, that's a bit of a strawman.

DrVornoff:
It started to feel as if people were apathetic toward the idea of online abuse, as long as it wasn't happening to them.

The reason people are "apathetic" towards the supposed "abuse" directed towards Sarkeesian is because she engineered it.

DrVornoff:
Over-reaction on my part? Could be. But please try to understand my concern.

No, I'm sorry, but I cannot understand your concern over what is essentially a disingenuous person trying to garner publicity for her pet project by playing the victim card.

DrVornoff:
No. It's just not a priority for me to go after it.

It should be.

DrVornoff:
If she wants to destroy her credibility, let the audience crucify her for it. I'm more disturbed by the fact that it was actually possible to spam a site and that kind of reaction would actually happen.

We're not here to talk about 4chan's problems, we're here to talk about hers and believe me, she has plenty.

DrVornoff:
Again, please calm down. I'm trying to be polite and don't appreciate the constant histrionics.

I'm being very polite with you considering the ammount of crap I had to endure from pseudo intellectuals and people with an overinflated sense of superiority in this thread.

PercyBoleyn:
And that has to do with making wild unfounded claims about people you aren't even having a conversation with how?

Could you be more specific? I can't apologize if I don't know what specific act I'm apologizing for.

But you didn't explain, you overgeneralized and failed to provide any evidence to support your claims. It's no different than what Blahb does and honestly, I considered you above him.

I provided the books I read that lead me to this conclusion. Do you want links too? I don't know how many online scholarly essays I can find, but I can give you a list of books you might be able to find at the library.

There's nothing that can be done. People were already tricked by her bullshit.

So where do you want this conversation to go?

Expanding it how? She's still making fucking YouTube videos. She had equipment that FAR surpassed other YouTuber's. There was literally no fucking reason for her to need even a thousand dollars to make her video series.

Allegedly, she wants to make a full documentary. And again, there's always room for improvement, so that's why I don't buy the argument that she never should have asked for money in the first place.

Not a fan.

Could you develop that thought? I'm curious.

Well, people DO single out Hitler when they talk about mass murderers do they not?

And this is making you look reasonable and mature how? Dude, I'm trying to repair the bridge. Please do not chuck stones at my head while I'm doing it.

She wanted to be harassed. Why should anyone take issue with it?

And you wonder why I thought people were saying the harassment was okay? Even if someone picks a fight, the doctor still patches them up and the people who beat the shit out of him still have to face aggravated assault charges.

There are intelligent people who are critiquing the content of Sarkeesian's videos. I don't care enough to do so myself, so I will leave that to them. There's another element to this debacle that I would like to talk about, and if I was being confrontational about that, then I apologize.

I'm not saying that anyone is innocent in this whole debacle. Apparently I just have a different idea of which is the more severe wrongdoing. I do however think that there is room for the both of us in this discussion.

Yeah, that's a bit of a strawman.

Not really. This was a genuine impression I had. I was not trying to deliberately mischaracterize people.

The reason people are "apathetic" towards the supposed "abuse" directed towards Sarkeesian is because she engineered it.

Doesn't mean I'm wrong to want to address it.

No, I'm sorry, but I cannot understand your concern over what is essentially a disingenuous person trying to garner publicity for her pet project by playing the victim card.

She's not the one I'm concerned about. What I worry about is the fact that this happened at all. The fact that you could spam 4chan and actually expect a reaction like this is pretty damn sad.

It should be.

You're already on the warpath and perfectly capable of articulating yourself. What do you need me for? My contribution can't possibly be that important.

We're not here to talk about 4chan's problems, we're here to talk about hers and believe me, she has plenty.

Who's we?

I'm being very polite with you considering the ammount of crap I had to endure from pseudo intellectuals and people with an overinflated sense of superiority in this thread.

Then work with me. I'm not your enemy.

cobra_ky:

Ramzal:

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

You're confusing video game characters with actual people. Women who make conscientious decisions about their bodies and what to put on them are empowered. But video game characters don't make decisions about what they wear; the people designing them do, and those people are typically men. Too much emphasis on the sexuality of female characters is degrading to womem.

That's a double standard. You are involving how women feel about created characters being shown but you cannot relate it to how normal women being dressed. You're kind of making a hole of bias that it only works one way. My point is that there are women who dress as revealing as women created in video games. Dressing yourself is part of self expression and self comfort.

Truth be told, if anything sends a message about women dressed scantily in games, it shows that the character herself is comfortable with herself and has no issue with wearing a certain kind of clothing around others. Think about that for a second. There has been at least more than once that everyone has stopped and said "You know what...? I don't think I want to wear this shirt out. It's not something I want to wear in public." It's a form of self consciousness.

I'm not confusing a video game character with a person. But a character is created to either mimic or give an incite on how a certain person is or can be. You can't make a double standard and say "Well, it's in a video game so it's different."

image

This is a picture of a woman walking down the street in her clothing. Yes, it is revealing. However she is smiling and is walking with an air of confidence. Is she degrading to women because she has more leg and breast showing than most women in public?

image

Or even this woman. She seems to like how she is dressed. Is she degrading to women because she is showing more leg and stomach than the average woman?

The problem I have with your argument is that fictional women dressing a certain way is degrading to women because "They don't have a choice." However a character is made to have their own sense of flair and character and what they wear is part of that. It's expression. Art in every sense of the word. If we demand a change in something like that, we are asking for censorship, judging, and downing women who DO wear revealing clothing.

What I find perplexing about this kind of debate is that it's a subject of what is acceptable for a woman to wear or not wear--or even a portrayal of what a fictional woman would wear because it degrades or brings shame to a group of people... which is the same so called "Suppressive ideology" that men in the middle east have so that women must wear burkas.

You can't just say "Well, I have an issue with fake women dressing that way, but real women, that's okay." That's the definition of a bias, unfounded, and restrictive double standard, ma'am.

Edit: Also, eyes over here people.

Due to many many people using this word incorrectly, I will address a constant "defense" if you will.

"This is degrading to women."

Degrading: Causing a loss of self-respect; humiliating.

In order for a video game character to cause a lack of self-respect, it would need to impact you to a point where you are humiliated personally. In order for all women to be degraded by a depiction of a video game character's portrayal, that character would need to undergo an action that would cause humiliation. However, the majority of these women who are "degrading" as many would put it--are in positions of power that supersede men in games. Princesses, Queens, bounty hunters, warriors, fighters, spies. Due to their positions in life and their professions and proficiencies, they serve as an example of a position to strive for in life.

I will give you an example of women being degraded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIg4j43Lqaw

This is degrading. Women in this restaurant are forced to eat beans without hands, and only their face in order to go home earlier. The actions of this person does give an image of cheapening women as nothing but a source of entertainment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvpGacNptzw

This is online gameplay of Ivy fighting Siegfried. During no point in this does this show any cheap or devaluing of women. She clearly is holding her own against him, on equal terms and is just as capable, if more more of a fighter than he is. So I ask you, how is this degrading? If she were wearing a business suit and had a pony tail styled hairdo, would that make it appropriate? In a game where there is a male character who is covered by nothing but two belts?

In the hooters example, it shows women without power being taken advantage of and humiliated. With the Ivy example, she's beating the living day lights out of a male who is bigger than her. Do you mean to suggest that if Ivy were in the hooters situation--dressed as she is--she would simply plow her face into a plate of beans. No, I think that manager would be the one who's face is in a place, while he's picking out his teeth from the beans.

I think your aggression is pointed the wrong way.

Ramzal:
This is online gameplay of Ivy fighting Siegfried. During no point in this does this show any cheap or devaluing of women. She clearly is holding her own against him, on equal terms and is just as capable, if more more of a fighter than he is. So I ask you, how is this degrading? If she were wearing a business suit and had a pony tail styled hairdo, would that make it appropriate? In a game where there is a male character who is covered by nothing but two belts?

Another thread brought up the idea that it feels a bit hollow because even though she's holding her own in the fight, any sense of threat is balanced out by the way she's dressed, which allows a man to think to himself, "I could still handle her (sexually)."

And I do find myself asking, "Wouldn't it be difficult to fight with those things jiggling all over the place?" My suspension of disbelief is pretty good, but it doesn't have the structural integrity of a sports bra.

Ramzal:
snip

I feel obliged to chip in here and thank you for making such a good, comprehensive argument on the topic at hand. Up until now, it's been looking kind of empty on this side of the issue.

DrVornoff:
Could you be more specific? I can't apologize if I don't know what specific act I'm apologizing for.

Apologize for what?

DrVornoff:
I provided the books I read that lead me to this conclusion. Do you want links too?

Do you honestly expect me to read an entire book? How about something more digestable, like a study?

DrVornoff:
So where do you want this conversation to go?

Making you understand that she's vile?

DrVornoff:
Allegedly, she wants to make a full documentary.

"Alledgedly"?

DrVornoff:
And again, there's always room for improvement, so that's why I don't buy the argument that she never should have asked for money in the first place.

Room for improvement where? Her equipment was way above what your average YouTuber had. Unless she's making a documentary there is absolutely zero reason she'd need top of the line equipment.

DrVornoff:
Could you develop that thought?

I think I've already stated my problems with crowd funding quite clearly. Certain issues can be solved through the use of a contract between the donors and the person receiving the money, like getting your money back after the project was funded for example, others cannot, like someone lying and deceiving others to get people to donate.

DrVornoff:
And this is making you look reasonable and mature how? Dude, I'm trying to repair the bridge here. Please do not chuck stones at my head while I'm doing it.

You asked me why I never brought up other Kickstarters, I pointed out that we're not talking about other Kickstarters.

DrVornoff:
And you wonder why I thought people were saying the harassment was okay?

This is completely different. She purposefully baited 4chan into harassing her in order to garner sympathy. If you want to talk about 4chan then sure, let's talk about 4chan.

DrVornoff:
Even if someone picks a fight, the doctor still patches them up and the people who beat the shit out of him still have to face aggravated assault charges.

Actually, they'd probably be acquitted on the count of self defense.

DrVornoff:
I'm not saying that anyone is innocent in this whole debacle. Apparently I just have a different idea of which is the more severe wrongdoing.

She knew very well she was going to get harassed. She did it on purpose in order to get people to donate. I'd say comitting fraud is a much more serious offense than having a bunch of teenagers calling you a slut.

DrVornoff:
Not really. This was a genuine impression I had. I was not trying to deliberately mischaracterize people.

Well then, you know, stop thinking that.

DrVornoff:
So what?

What do you mean so what? She comitted fucking fraud.

DrVornoff:
She's not the one I'm concerned about. What I worry about is the fact that this happened at all. The fact that you could spam 4chan and actually expect a reaction like this is pretty damn sad.

Again, this isn't a discussion about 4chan. That's an entirely different beast that I don't feel like tackling right now.

DrVornoff:
Who's we?

Me and my cat.

PercyBoleyn:
Apologize for what?

Well I got the idea that you believe I did something wrong and falsely accused people. If I did, then that would be bad and I'd like to own up to it.

Do you honestly expect me to read an entire book? How about something more digestable, like a study?

I'll do some digging. See what I can turn up. Ultimately, the books are the best sources of information. Most of them aren't nearly as specific as you might think. Volumes like Cialdini's "Influence" have broader use and I'd actually recommend it anyway for its practical value.

Making you understand that she's vile?

I won't be watching her videos, I never donated to her fund, and frankly I'm content to let her sink or swim on her own.

"Alledgedly"?

That's the claim that's going around. I'm going to wait and see how this pans out before I make a call.

Room for improvement where? Her equipment was way above what your average YouTuber had. Unless she's making a documentary there is absolutely zero reason she'd need top of the line equipment.

Other than wanting to keep improving the production values?

I think I've already stated my problems with crowd funding quite clearly. Certain issues can be solved through the use of a contract between the donors and the person receiving the money, like getting your money back after the project was funded for example, others cannot, like someone lying and deceiving others to get people to donate.

So your issue is the lack of regulation?

You asked me why I never brought up other Kickstarters, I pointed out that we're not talking about other Kickstarters.

The histrionics aren't helping.

This is completely different. She purposefully baited 4chan into harassing her in order to garner sympathy. If you want to talk about 4chan then sure, let's talk about 4chan.

I'd really like to talk about the fact that this kind of reaction doesn't shock us anymore and try to think of something we can do about it. 4chan are one part of a larger problem.

Actually, they'd probably be acquitted on the count of self defense.

Assuming he threw the first punch. If he was just being a dick to them and they decided to beat the piss out of him, not so much.

She knew very well she was going to get harassed. She did it on purpose in order to get people to donate. I'd say comitting fraud is a much more serious offense than having a bunch of teenagers calling you a slut.

I think fraud is a little strong a word, because it's not as if she's failing to deliver the product she said she would. Her method of garnering publicity was dishonest, but I wouldn't call this a felony.

Again, this isn't a discussion about 4chan. That's an entirely different beast that I don't feel like tackling right now.

Then perhaps we can agree that we don't see anyone as being an innocent party here, but we can't agree on who to go after first.

jmarquiso:

Hallowed Lady:

I'll also note that she has apparantly tried to review the amount of sexist in a game she didn't bother playing. That alone screams 'not taking this seriously' or at least trying to make a strawman arguement. If that is anything to go by, I doubt she'll put the research or effort into her series and it will be shallow and pointless. But I hope that I am wrong.

Technically she was criticizing the ad campaign, not the game, and I do agree she's too dismissive of the game itself.

That being said, the ad campaign for this game had the same effect on me - I found it distasteful and didn't want the game. Multiple reviews afterward said it was more than it was selling, and so that sparked my interest.

My mistake there, I hadn't seen the video, because I think it's been taken down.

maximara:

Hallowed Lady:

maximara:

But one of the writers involved was no less then Yoshio Sakamoto (one of the *creators* of Samus) "The game's story was definitely the product of Mr. Sakamoto at Nintendo. We definitely worked with them on the project, but that was all him." (G4 Media and Kotaku)

It was like what happened with Asprin and his MythAdventures series which after a nearly 10 years hiatus he returned to...and it simply didn't work. Even Conan Doyle had problems making his later Holmes stories consistent with what he had written earlier to the point that some would like to forget that things like "The Mazarin Stone" are part of the canon.

As EC said there were better ways for us to get up to speed with Samus--comm chatter would have been a vast improvement over that inane wooden monotone monologue we did get. It's worse than that Tauren (Kor'kron Primalist) in Warcraft that TotalBiscuit made a joke about.

I agree with all your points here, I know that he was involved but I thought there would be more than one writer. Yoshio Sakamoto kinda screwed up with Other M and there's no good way for saying it. Maybe one of the things to would have been to have her seem less obessed with Adam (I think that was his name), and show him in a better light.

To be fair to Yoshio Sakamoto as the EC video ("Learning from Other M") shows you also had the political pressures of Teen Ninja, D-Rocket, and Nintendo in the mix. So you have the "Bad Writing" situation of Yoshio Sakamoto having to write around whatever those three had planned for the game.

Then there is the fun issue of game mechanics butting heads with the writing. Sometimes as in WoW it can result in bizarre and sometimes silly situations--if you have ever taken a Worgen through Grizzly Hills you know what I mean. But in Other M this clash was a disaster and the lack of any comm chatter made this already bad situation worse. Instead of the strong independent Samus everyone was expecting we got a woman with seemingly nearly as many (though different) psychological hangups as Sylvanas Windrunner.

Whilst I don't play WoW, I do understand what you mean here. If they had managed to make the gameplay and plotline work together things would have been different.

Blade_125:

medv4380:
The entire sexism argument should be flatly ignored.

No progress is ever made and when push comes to shiv the only people left participating are the Women who want all me to die and the Men who think of women as Objects.

The biggest problem with the entire argument is that it is too subjective. The latest Sex Symbol in Japan is Nintendos Office Lady in their ads. Cultural boundaries are so erratic on what would be sexually exploitative of women would be anything and everything.

The ultimate result of the argument isn't any good ether.

Eastern Orthodox Catholics/Russian Catholics view Hair as Sexually Seductive. Therefor, women must wear head scarves.

Islam, any skin showing on a woman is too Sexually Seductive in public. Therefor, women must be fully clothed from head to toe.

Your argument ultimately falls to pieces, because you offer no valid solution, and can be pared down to Attractive Women Shouldn't Be Seen.

So which world do you want?

Do you want a world where women are free to exist as whatever tramp, harlot, stripper, engineer, teacher, or scientist they want to be?

Or do you want a world where women are not to be seen in public?

The path you're presenting Bob is the path that leads to women not being seen even though I know your intention is not to go that far. Your logic is the very logic that has been used to Oppress women the most.

How about a world were men can be trusted no to rape a woman because they see some hair or ankle and women are judged by the skill they bring to the job/issue/whatever and nothing else.

In order for that to happen you need to be aware of the problem. There is no "here is the way to fix this problem" solution aside frmo education and changing the perspectice of people. Bob's episode is a great example of this solution, so I completely disagree with your statement. If one young boy starts to question why he thinks less of women then this video was a success.

Wait, is this guy/girl saying men can't be trusted not to rape? I might have read (and re-read) it wrong but that's just - woah.

Jacob Texeira:
I just feel squeamish that a web series about sexism in gaming is by someone who may not be asking for fighting game characters to be more feminist, but for fighting games themselves to stop existing. And this producer may bend truth to do her attacks.

Hello old me. I've had time to think.

I'm guessing prominent media figures like Oprah (not that I know if Oprah herself is included) have had chances to attack video games, but they've never seemed to be able to eliminate any game that I would've liked to see. (except 6 days in Fallujah). So Ms. Sarkeesian isn't likely to become the Ragnarok of genres that I feared she'd once be. Could she the Ragnarok of adult women prefixes? Ms. doesn't feel as mature to me as Mr. Maybe Marcie from Peanuts was right when using sir as a unisex term.

Currently I'm doing writing for some video games I hope to make in the future, even if these games wind up solo projects. There will be playable female characters in these games, none of whom will have bouncing breasts, breasts higher than a D cup, breasts less than 100% covered, or non-flat footwear. I think I'll make some of them 26 years old, past "Christmas Cake".

DrVornoff:

She's not the one I'm concerned about. What I worry about is the fact that this happened at all. The fact that you could spam 4chan and actually expect a reaction like this is pretty damn sad.

That's the core of it though. It's not even a matter of 4chan being misogynistic, it's a matter of shaking a wasps nest, sticking it down your pants, and then pretending that being stung is proof that forests are misogynistic.

4chan/anon isn't misogynistic, they're pretty equal opportunity anti whatever aspect of you is recognizable. Identifying as female meant the attack was going to be misogynistic. Identifying as anything was going to make the attack anti-that. I'm pretty sure if Paul Elam spammed 4chan to drum up funding for AVfM, you'd see another hellstorm of hatred on your hands.

DVS BSTrD:
Now I really want to play Big Boob Panty Ninja 12.

I'd rather it be Pettanko Nopan Ninja. But, that's just me.

Oh wait, X-Blades was preeeetty close to that, even without a certain texmod.. *ahem*

Schadrach:

DrVornoff:

She's not the one I'm concerned about. What I worry about is the fact that this happened at all. The fact that you could spam 4chan and actually expect a reaction like this is pretty damn sad.

That's the core of it though. It's not even a matter of 4chan being misogynistic, it's a matter of shaking a wasps nest, sticking it down your pants, and then pretending that being stung is proof that forests are misogynistic.

4chan/anon isn't misogynistic, they're pretty equal opportunity anti whatever aspect of you is recognizable. Identifying as female meant the attack was going to be misogynistic. Identifying as anything was going to make the attack anti-that. I'm pretty sure if Paul Elam spammed 4chan to drum up funding for AVfM, you'd see another hellstorm of hatred on your hands.

That doesn't make me feel any better.

maximara:
After watching a few of her earlier videos I have to say the problem is with the messenger rather than the message.

One of the problems with her earlier videos is she has the comments is up for approval option on effectively stacking the deck and squelching any real meaningful comment--so those who have been suppressed for a long time got a chance to nuts and say stupid things egging on the trolls to add in their two cents and things quickly go down the tubes.

It doesn't help her "research" is at best laughable when it is not totally pathetic. For example, her portrayal of Captain Janeway as a *favorable* female lead character in her "The Smurfette Principle" shows she doesn't do anything even resembling research. Depending on the episode Janeway is either portrayed as crazier then Captain Garth and Janice Lester combined while being dumber then John Gill of TOS (a point reviewer SF Debris loves to bring up again and again) or Captain Mary Sue.

She seems to be avoiding a point that the Over Thinker brought up way back in "Mississippi Pwning 2" (E23)-the brass tax that encourages these tropes because most gamers are young white males. Then you have the whole "Video Games Come From Japan" problem with all that entails.

Yes there is a problem but this is not the person you want to bring up the issue because you _know_ the research is going to be so bad-one sided that everybody with sense will dismiss it as "feminist strawmen argument BS" and it will do the same amount of damage to the movement as the extremists who wanted 'policeman' turned into 'policeperson' and other totally off the wall nonsense.

On one of her videos where she points out Winnie the Pooh being applied to the 'smurfette rule' I tried to write a post explaining the reasoning behind the characters and just shortly after it appeared I left, and when I brought the page back up my post had been deleted, clearly she is only going to keep posts that glorify her as a victim.

EDIT: incidentally, surrounding my post were posts that either demeaned her or her work as a whole, so yeah, I do believe she is only going to use what helps her, not what helps pull her down

cobra_ky:

Ramzal:

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

You're confusing video game characters with actual people. Women who make conscientious decisions about their bodies and what to put on them are empowered. But video game characters don't make decisions about what they wear; the people designing them do, and those people are typically men. Too much emphasis on the sexuality of female characters is degrading to women.

maximara:

Hallowed Lady:
Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

E:

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

yeah about that:

image

Note I said *cheesecake* ie "scantily clothed attractive women"; Lara is *not* scantily clothed in the above.

The helium breast implant problem (which the above *is* an example of) goes back over a hundred years. The reference has a unintended double meaning as one of the common cheesecakes at the beginning of the 20th century was Dejah Thoris of Burroughs's Barsoom series (1912-1942) who was Princess of Helium.

I will buy big boob panty ninja 12, as long as it does not have regenerating health.

Chatney:

Ramzal:
snip

I feel obliged to chip in here and thank you for making such a good, comprehensive argument on the topic at hand. Up until now, it's been looking kind of empty on this side of the issue.

If you could help explain it to me at all, i'd appreciate it. The English isn't too great and frankly i can hardly understand what he's saying :/

oh well, i'll take a crack at a response tomorrow i guess.

maximara:

Note I said *cheesecake* ie "scantily clothed attractive women"; Lara is *not* scantily clothed in the above.

The helium breast implant problem (which the above *is* an example of) goes back over a hundred years. The reference has a unintended double meaning as one of the common cheesecakes at the beginning of the 20th century was Dejah Thoris of Burroughs's Barsoom series (1912-1942) who was Princess of Helium.

ok, sorry. i guess that is a slightly different form of sexual exploitation.

Ramzal:

"LadyRhian"
We (and Anita Sarkeesian) aren't saying there aren't any. We're saying there aren't enough of them.

Really? I will give a few more examples. *Clears throat... inhales.*

1)Titania: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance.
2)Mia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
3)Nephenee: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
4)Lethe: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
5)Lucia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
6)Jill: Fire emblem Path of Radiance
7)Princess/Queen Elincia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
8)Lyn: Fire Emblem Blazing sword
9)April Ryan: Longest Journey
10)Alyx Vance: Half Life 2
11)Ashe: Final Fantasy XII
12)Tifa: Final Fantasy VII
13)Quistis: Final Fantasy VIII
14)Edea Kramer: Final Fantasy VIII
15)Lightning: Final Fantasy XIII
16)Agrais: Final Fantasy Tactics
17)Beatrix: FInal fantasy IX
18)Lara Croft: Tomb Raider Anniversary (If you cannot see how humanized she is in this game, I can't help you.)
19)Claire: Resident evil
20)Jill: Resident evil
21)Sheva: Resident evil (Honestly, she's saved Chris's backside so many times. And is more capable than he is and can keep her head on straight easier)
22)Lucia: Chrono Trigger
23)Kidd: Chrono Cross
24)Sarah Lyons: Fallout 3
25)Hope's Mother: Final Fantasy XIII
26)Ruby: Wet
27)Amaterasu: Okami
28)Celes Cher: Final Fantasy VI
29)Samus: From every Metroid game OUTSIDE of other M. (She isn't portrayed very much in most games, however Metroid Fusion and the comics do a great job of doing so.)
30)Nel: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
31)Mirage Kaos: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
32)Maria Trador: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
33)Myuria Tionysus: Star Ocean The Last Hope

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

Honestly, that's 33 women I can think of in games off the top of my mind who are strong, capable, do NOT need a man around to save them and influential. Going so far as saying that there should be no shame in looking up to them.

Thank you sir.

You're confusing video game characters with actual people. Women who make conscientious decisions about their bodies and what to put on them are empowered. But video game characters don't make decisions about what they wear; the people designing them do, and those people are typically men. Too much emphasis on the sexuality of female characters is degrading to women.

Then more women should make games.

If feminism is equivilent to empowerment then let us seek what is more empowering. Lets also ask ourselves which one will get the job done more efficiently and faster.

Women taking control and making the videogames and characters they want to see?

or

Feminist journalists eyeballing and critiquing the work that your average male game developer makes. criticizing his work because it doesnt suit your vision of empowerment until said game you want to see is made.

And I dont want to hear about hiring practices and ea and such and such. The creators of braid and fez worked without having to have these accoutrements and if you are empowered; if you are in fact mine and the equal of every man out there making these games. then you should get out there and make some damn videogames.

cobra_ky:
If you could help explain it to me at all, i'd appreciate it. The English isn't too great and frankly i can hardly understand what he's saying :/

That is a childish and pointless thing to write. His English doesn't even border on unintelligible. If you don't have any arguments to make against his position then either take a break and come up with some or stay out of the discussion.

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