The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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Yoshi Bibi:
EPIC SNIP

Great, I agree, we need more good female characters, now how do we do that?

Because it certainly isn't railing against the "patriarchy" and saying it's all white male teenager's fault. And honestly, if I were a developer, I would be heavily disillusioned after some of the recent Lara Croft controversy.

People complained making her boobs too big objectified her, so they reduced their size. And I swear to god I read on this very forums someone complaining that reducing Lara's bust size was sexist and demeaning to woman, especially large-breasted women.

my mind was blown.

anyway, I say the heart of the problem is analytics based game design, where (as I've before somewhere in this thread IIRC) marketers try and guess what their "target" audience wants and then get developers to put it in their games. The problem seems to be supply side here.

Darkmantle:

Yoshi Bibi:
EPIC SNIP

Great, I agree, we need more good female characters, now how do we do that?

Because it certainly isn't railing against the "patriarchy" and saying it's all white male teenager's fault. And honestly, if I were a developer, I would be heavily disillusioned after some of the recent Lara Croft controversy.

People complained making her boobs too big objectified her, so they reduced their size. And I swear to god I read on this very forums someone complaining that reducing Lara's bust size was sexist and demeaning to woman, especially large-breasted women.

my mind was blown.

anyway, I say the heart of the problem is analytics based game design, where (as I've before somewhere in this thread IIRC) marketers try and guess what their "target" audience wants and then get developers to put it in their games. The problem seems to be supply side here.

The "problem" is that video games are a product, sold to make money. As long as the white heterosexual male is still the core consumer of video games (always has, always will be), then we will continue to have big-titted action babes, muscle men, and the like.

Besides, isn't gaming moving toward a less sexist environment already? Look at the backlash to the Hitman: Absolution trailer with the battle nuns. A few years ago, having BDSM nuns be beaten up by a scary man would be par for the course, but instead, gamers decried the trailer as violence porn.

Darkmantle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knXHUQ2A1J4&feature=g-user-u
times are a changing. Both genders have real issue with sexual assault, it's time to address the problems of today, not the 80s or 90s

Well, for one, female inmates are twice as likely as men to experience inmate-on-inmate sexual assault.

For two, I would argue this is getting more into the atrociousness of the American prison system. This Guardian article raises a good point; both genders experience a dramatic rise in the chances of being a victim of sexual assault, mainly because prison rape is viewed as part of the "justice package." American society dehumanizes its inmates - regardless of gender - to a sickening degree.

Darkmantle:

If you take out CEO earnings the pay gap drops to a notorious 2-3 percent, and I'm hesitant to believe even that. Most of those studies do it by total, not job by job, and that's a big flaw with the stats.

Um, no.

Check this out:

One year out of college, women working full
time earn only 80 percent as much as their male colleagues
earn.

Even in a female-dominated field like education, men earn more than women, by 5%. Ludicrous, is it not?

But, I mean, even that you need to do something like "take out CEO earnings" - is that not in itself kinda disturbing that not only are the vast majority of men are CEOs, but that they earn so much more than women?

Darkmantle:
but there are indeed laws! That's what you don't get! we've dealt with those issue because of prejudice in the past. you CANNOT use those instances to prove anything about the situation of today. You would hold this generation responsible for the pasts mistakes. It was unfair back then, I know, but vengeance isn't a good policy.

You miss my point; that there even need to be laws in the first place is what bothers me - that and they're constantly under attack (cf. Wisconsin and Michigan).

I have no idea where you're getting vengeance from. Nonviolent solutions are totes awesome, imo.

Darkmantle:

it's that the industry is built entirely to please "you", the young single white male. Unrealistic depictions of men and women are there because the industry majority believes that its entire userbase is young men who want to save Ms. Triple-D Tits with their six pack abs and twelve-inch raging erections. That's a problem for both genders

yeah, that is the problem for both genders, and you are never going to be able to fix it unless you ADDRESS both genders. Do you think I liked to be stereotyped by the industry as you have described? that all it takes to please me are big tits and stupid wide shoulders? I try to avoid games like that, because I don't want that.

The Patriarchy Hurts Everyone. Ironically, even when it tries to help.

Darkmantle:

Men as a rule have it easier than women in all arenas

Nope. Prison rates, male dominated. Suicide rates, up for men. Workplace deaths, up for men (by a lot mind you). Majority of soldiers sent to die over seas, men again. Domestic violence, about even. Child custody cases, men lose.

Ok, sloppy wording, my apologies. What I meant was that men have more resources available to them in general than women. Better employment rates, higher salaries, etc. Acting like men aren't disadvantaged ever - that's dishonest. Male nurses have it pretty fucking rough, for one.

Anyway, going to take your claims one-by-one.

1. Yep, male-dominated, and the majority of them are African-American and Hispanic. This is an interesting place for discussion, but again this gets into the American judicial/prison system (also intersectionality! yay intersectionality)

2. Men successfully commit suicide more, but three times as many women attempt suicide. I remember reading a study some time ago that correlated certain suicide methods with gender - women were more likely to choose nonviolent methods, like swallowing a lot of pills, whereas men were more likely to choose violent methods, like shooting themselves. That would probably explain the gap (pills are definitely more recoverable than gunshot wounds to the head) but I can't back that up.

3. A legitimate problem, I agree with you, directly related to the fact that the most dangerous jobs in America (mining, agriculture, forestry, fishing, and construction industries) are all male-dominated. I would wager this is due to how we socialize these jobs by gender.

4. Oh, I'm actually in the Army, this'll be fun. You do know that the military deploys units, not individuals, right? Women's representation in the military is in the teens, and beyond that, women in the military are subject to the Combat Exclusion Policy, which prevents them from working in combat roles below the battalion level (used to be brigade, but the pentagon opened it up to battalion a few months ago). Women are not authorized to serve in a fifth of the armed forces.

Speaking of women's representation in the military, did you know that the majority of senior officers come from career branches that women aren't allowed to join? We've actually seen the first female 4-star general in the Army and Air Force in the past four years.

Here's something else that's cool - there has been exactly one woman who's gotten the Medal of Honor, and that was over 100 years ago. Oh, and we've only had two women get a Silver Star since WWII, one during the war in Iraq and one during the war in Afghanistan.

5. General domestic violence, yes. Domestic violence between intimate partners - women are by far worse off.

6. Interesting, that. The argument is that women are "expected" to be the nurturing one in a relationship, which is an outlook that benefits women in custody cases. I agree, it's a legitimate problem as well.

Darkmantle:
P.S. Not man hate, man stereotyping, just like I'm sure they don't systematically hate women either, they sure do use stereotypes though. the problem is analytics based game design, where clueless marketing people try to guess what should be in the game to make it sell.

The stereotype being, for depictions of both genders, that "this is what men want to see". It's the difference between a man's dilemma of "I'm not being catered to correctly," versus a woman's dilemma of "I'm not being catered to at all."

But, once again, The Patriarchy Hurts Everyone.

Father Time:

my_ledge_ends:

Men as a rule have it easier than women in all arenas.

Including nursing, being a teacher for small children, other fields dominated by women, divorce procedures, and the draft?

Ack, sloppy wording. What I meant is that men have more resources at their disposal.

...Wait, the draft? Really, man? We haven't had a draft in over forty years, and it's probably never coming back. Our military prides itself on being an all-volunteer force. I should know - I'm in the Army.

Father Time:

my_ledge_ends:

That's why it's so important to unpack representations of women - the best way to break down the patriarchy is to show genuine support for the gender it's trying to push down.

So how do we know when this patriarchy is dead?

When there's gender parity in every category - pay, job representation, etc. Also, things like rape culture will be gone. I mean, there are concrete goals to feminism; a lot of them, in fact. Too many for me to list in one place.

Father Time:

my_ledge_ends:

Conversely, fixing men's issues won't grant women a reprieve from the patriarchy, it'll just make the patriarchy more liveable for men.

And fixing women's issues won't necessarily make life easier for men. There is no powerful group of people making all/most game designers design men a certain way and design women another way. They do that on their own free will. If there were no more patriarchy then what would stop people from making more degrading games? Even if the audience for it becomes niche they could still do it.

Hey, free speech man, if I were a private citizen I could make a Nazi flag and fly it in my front yard. Thing is, I'd be called out for it, and rightfully so.

That's the end game here - misogyny in video games would be called out without people (i.e. Sarkeesian wiki vandals) freaking the fuck out.

And actually, fixing women's issues would help, for one by stopping the degradation of traditionally "feminine" things. Men who enjoy, say, being a nurse would see quality of life improvements.

my_ledge_ends:

Father Time:

my_ledge_ends:

Men as a rule have it easier than women in all arenas.

Including nursing, being a teacher for small children, other fields dominated by women, divorce procedures, and the draft?

Ack, sloppy wording. What I meant is that men have more resources at their disposal.

...Wait, the draft? Really, man? We haven't had a draft in over forty years, and it's probably never coming back. Our military prides itself on being an all-volunteer force. I should know - I'm in the Army.

Well men still have to register and it the draft is still on the table so there's a small chance it could be used.

my_ledge_ends:

Father Time:

my_ledge_ends:

That's why it's so important to unpack representations of women - the best way to break down the patriarchy is to show genuine support for the gender it's trying to push down.

So how do we know when this patriarchy is dead?

When there's gender parity in every category - pay, job representation, etc.

So wait are you saying there needs to be a 50-50 split in every field? If that's what you mean I think that's arbitrary.

my_ledge_ends:

Also, things like rape culture will be gone.

It seems like no matter what happens feminists could still say that thing X supports a rape culture so...

my_ledge_ends:

Hey, free speech man, if I were a private citizen I could make a Nazi flag and fly it in my front yard. Thing is, I'd be called out for it, and rightfully so.

That's the end game here - misogyny in video games would be called out without people (i.e. Sarkeesian wiki vandals) freaking the fuck out.

I know Sarkesian isn't the only one who's been trolled but she (or someone pretending to be her), spammed 4chan until they bit back.

Anyway I see people calling out game series for being pandering all the time. It doesn't seem to stick but people are still doing it (I'm not saying everything that needs to be called out gets called out, but we still have booth babes and preposterous jiggle physics in a few games despite the complaints).

Yoshi Bibi:
snip

I've debated this woman's bullshit more than enough and I don't feel like getting into another one, sorry.

I'm just saiyan that if Bob dedicates an episode to DBZ, I will have a full on hardcore nerdgasm since I know he's a fan of the franchise since he's made other DBZ references in the past. But I think he put the saiyans in there since they could also appear to be sexual self image fantasies for male viewers/readers like me. (But in that case, DBZ doesn't really have many over exploited female characters besides Bulma in early DB but by DBZ she has a kid)

"Society judges women based on their appearence rather than their ability"
A valid argument yes and realistic enough to be taken seriously, but there's always two sides to a coin.

If you really want to get to the root of the problem, ie, why women have their general value based on the exterior, is to ask the right question.

Is it ONLY because society and heterosexual white males judge them by their appearence
OR
could it be the fact that some women really don't help that problem at all by simply, oh i dunno
PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS IF THAT IS ALL THEY HAVE TO OFFER

seriously, i don't see this argument as valid if it comes from someone who only posts cleavage pictures of themselves on facebook and tweets about all the money they spend on cosmetic bullshit, then you are not entitled to have this argument with me.
If women would like to be judged by their abilities, then show it, make me believe you would actually want that rather than spending countless hours and resources on perfecting your appearence, thats not going to help at all, thats just making it worse for the kind of women who already have it bad and are actually suffering from this problem.

Too often do women expect to get handed everything and not be judged by their ability, because they think their appearence is enough.
So both parts imo have to do their parts in the sense that

Some women need to stop focusing on their appearence and using that as an excuse to
get what they want, and also stop presenting themselves as if the appearence was the most important thing to them.

While some men and society and general needs to stop making these retarded demands from women and portray them in one specific way in media and so on.

This is not a problem to solely blame on society and the heterosexual male ;)

Let's round up a few complains not only about her as a person, but the video and its messege.

1. Yes, we see that you're a "gamer" and this is the first thing you state: Im a gamer, im also a girl, and i've played a lot of games featuring girls in the content.

Remember that episode abour racism when Bob debunked the argument of: Hey, i know a black guy, and he doesnt think it's racist.
That is the same kind of argument as this one, you're a gamer but playing games and noticing how women are depicted in these games, does not make you an expert on the subject and it doesnt make your opinion anymore valid. Anyone who starts their arguments in such a way will never be taken seriously by anyone with a functioning brain.

2. Presenting the argument of feminism that ONLY women can be "true" feminists.

Rebuttal: No because your "true" feminism was never about equality in gender. Regardless if you are a woman, a man, or whatever in between, you can be a feminist, or as i like to call myself, a humanist. It doesnt require you to be a woman and it doesnt add to your argument if you are a woman. Feminism can come from anyone and it should always be ABOUT anyone, about both sides of the coin. Yes a woman has bigger risk of getting raped by the opposite or even the same sex as herself, than say, a man does. That however, doesn't exactly trivialize the counterpart does it?
Small thing to add before i close up this: Feminism is an action, an activity, something that you do and not something you define yourself as.

Mikeyfell:
There's going to be a Big Boob Panty Ninja 12?
Did you find the secrete door at E3?

My problem with the whole argument is that overhauling the media and portraying all women with "regular" body types wouldn't fix anything.
The real problem here doesn't have anything to do with the media or uber sexy fake women. The problem is the biological imperative that guys think with their dicks. If there were no D-cup hourglass women in comic books, videogames, movies, etc the underlining problem wouldn't be any less prevalent.

Attacking all the hot bodied characters isn't really attacking the source, or even a symptom of the problem. It's just an easy target

Oh thank God I finally found someone who makes sense!!! I thought I would have to spend hours searchhing.

Femnist frequency: Hey do you know that games are sexist!!!

Me: yes we know it's a problem, now tell us something we don't know.

Group A: OUR SAVIOUR HAS COME!!! A TIME OF SALVATION IS COMING!!! ALL HAIL THIS VIDEO!!!

Group B: WHAT THIS IS F*&*ING RETARTED, THERE IS NO WAY THAT THIS WILL SOLVE ANYTHING AND IS JUST PLAIN STUPID

Me: Guys could you shut up your making me a bit upset

Journalist: SEE THE GUYS AT GROUP B ARE EVIL, SEXIST, MYSONGINISTIC BUNCH OF ENTITLED BRATS, WHY DON'T YOU LEAVE THIS POOR GIRLS ALONE AND GO BACK TO 4CHAN!!!

Me: Ok you win the argument, now can we please stop this and fix this problem already?

Group B: HAH SEE THAT!!! YOU GUYS SUCK AND YOUR ALL TO IMMATURE TO ACCEPT THAT THE MEDIUM CAN BE CRITICISED AND THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AT ALL

Me: Ok now would you please shut up so we can figure out how to adress this issue!

Group A: NU UH WERE RIGHT BECAUSE OF THE FOLOWING REASON...

Me: Guys, all this caps are hurting my eyes.

my_ledge_ends:
Quote="Darkmantle" post="6.379179.14911376"]

But, once again, The Patriarchy Hurts Everyone.

you know, this is probably one of my main problem with feminist arguments.

so lets try something, please, define patriarchy for me, because it seems to me that what I think it means, and what you think it means, are totally different. And we are not going to get anywhere by talking passed each other on it.

EDIT: Yeah this section wasn't really relevant, just some things I was thinking about, I'd rather focus on the main point.

my_ledge_ends:
. General domestic violence, yes. Domestic violence between intimate partners - women are by far worse off.

Okay give me a break on this will you? I'd say about half don't even mention male vs female rates, so are not relevant to this particular topic, and almost all of the rest state they are even, here, examples.

calls it basically even, men a bit more physical. I agree

numbers basically the same again.

calls them the same again.

the only study that backs up your point that I can see from a casual scan is the very first one. No doubt that was put on top on purpose too. You can't cherry pick the one study that agrees with you.

hanzkidz:
Femnist frequency: Hey do you know that games are sexist!!!

Me: yes we know it's a problem, now tell us something we don't know.

Group A: OUR SAVIOUR HAS COME!!! A TIME OF SALVATION IS COMING!!! ALL HAIL THIS VIDEO!!!

Group B: WHAT THIS IS F*&*ING RETARTED, THERE IS NO WAY THAT THIS WILL SOLVE ANYTHING AND IS JUST PLAIN STUPID

Me: Guys could you shut up your making me a bit upset

Journalist: SEE THE GUYS AT GROUP B ARE EVIL, SEXIST, MYSONGINISTIC BUNCH OF ENTITLED BRATS, WHY DON'T YOU LEAVE THIS POOR GIRLS ALONE AND GO BACK TO 4CHAN!!!

Me: Ok you win the argument, now can we please stop this and fix this problem already?

Group B: HAH SEE THAT!!! YOU GUYS SUCK AND YOUR ALL TO IMMATURE TO ACCEPT THAT THE MEDIUM CAN BE CRITICISED AND THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AT ALL

Me: Ok now would you please shut up so we can figure out how to adress this issue!

Group A: NU UH WERE RIGHT BECAUSE OF THE FOLOWING REASON...

Me: Guys, all this caps are hurting my eyes.

You do know that there aren't just two groups with the same opinions, right? There's hardly an issue to address. It's a subject that's inflated for no reason. Your "Group A" are trying to do something right but losing sight of the fact that not all women are objectified. Or even that they themselves have objectified women at times. Be it if you'd call a woman a whore, a skank, a slut but think one is only good for their body. And truth be told, there isn't a straight or bisexual person on this planet that hasn't seen a great figure and undressed them with their eyes.

Same goes for women who do the same to mean. And as for your "Group B" it's a matter of realizing that it still does happen. Granted, not as much as Group A claims but it still does happen at times. However often it hard to prove. Seeing as how your could-have-been boss will NOT outright say "You know what? Your breasts aren't big enough. Next!" Sometimes people fill in that gap of "You treat me this way because I'm a woman/man/black/Eskimo!" But not everyone does.

Honestly the solution to this minimal issue is simply seeing people as people. Sure women are women and men are men, but we are one people. You may want to chill a bit with the troll posts.

I have to say, bob, your lecture videos are definitely improving. There's many good points coming across and less of a vibe of you being judgmental. The thing I've noticed most in feminist arguments is the more judgement the person conveys, the more defensive the person becomes. This appears to be the case with the Tropes vs. Women videos. I think people are more compelled to agree if the viewer, male viewer, doesn't feel like he's labeled the bad guy by default. The benefit of the doubt, so to speak.

Obviously, it doesn't guarantee the there won't be dicks on the internet, but it can reduce the intensity of the backlash. Hell, it could increase the number of male listeners in feminist issues. Isn't a good goal to have? This can apply to any topic, not just feminism.

Well I am happy to see that being a liberal hipster doesn't stop you form ignorant moralizing Bob. Keep it up you.

1. She pisses people off because her videos are basically her ranting about her agenda and picking and choosing only things that will prove her point... and not even picking that well, i may add. She also frankly does not have a good tv presence in the charisma department and comes off as seriously annoying (as in i wanna smack her in the face real bad, woman to woman)

2. Women are often (but by no means always) represented as extremes, BUT SO ARE MEN. I hate this argument that "well it's ok that the men are because it's for the men blah blah." NOPE that does not change the fact that men are also very much presented in a skewed way.

And finally... 3. Women LIKE playing sexy video game female characters just as much as men like playing hunky male video game characters and for the same reason. Women don't want to play some average looking down to earth girl. Video games are a fantasy land where people (women and men) want to be something they really are not. And woman who complain about this probably are not playing too many video games. I am a woman and i always rush forward to play the games with the sexy women as main characters faster then any guy out there. If you don't believe me that this is the case then consider this. How are women portrayed in media designed for women? (ie, women's magazines, romance novels, celebrities women look up to) Yup, all those are generally sexy attractive women who most of us couldn't measure up to. There's your proof. If feminists want to bash the female image they should first look at the media GEARED towards women! If they got anyone to bitch at it's women for wanting that shit.... oh no.. but they won't do that will they? cuz women are delicate and blameless and soooo prosecuted and need defending. And that right there just proves their hypocrisy. They make women out to be more fucking defenseless and in need of help then any men do.

And one final thought. know what MEN do when a game isn't to their liking? THEY MAKE A MOD FOR IT. So... Feminists, how about you quit bitching at men and learn to program and make mods of down to earth non sexualized women for some games. WHAT? DID THAT NOT OCCUR TO YOU?

I lost out on a really good job because a less qualified, but more attractive, woman was given it over me (confirmed by a friend who works at the company). Are video games to blame?

Also, Lucca, Misty, Azel, Jade, Alyx, Zoey, Orta, Lammy, Alis, etc...

I'm only going to say it once so listen up Bob; getting on board the feminist band wagon will not, I repeat will NOT get you laid. Please. Stop. Now. Unrealistic body images are not going to get sorted out on the internet, what you are doing here is turning up to an earthquake with a dust pan and shovel.

image

I'll just leave this here for now, call it a day and do a
/Thread

Nice try though, Bob, and everyone else trying to whiteknight Anitas bullshit scam.

Monxeroth:
Nice try though, Bob, and everyone else trying to whiteknight Anitas bullshit scam.

*sigh*...the irony...it burns...

nice one bob, as usual i cant find any arguments with that video.

and i personally think that BBPN8 was the highlight of the entire serious.

If women really want to see a greater variety of depictions, shouldn't they be writing to magazines like, say, Cosmopolitan, requesting they invest in video games specifically targeted at women? Or contacting women in other forms of media (television, books, and of course, video games) to do more to represent themselves?

I feel damning men for playing games targeted at men, giving what men want, is rather pointless and counter productive.

It's also further bizarre that women somehow feel threatened by visually perfect women like Lara Croft or whoever, when at the same time go out of their way to spend as much time and money on products to make their faces seem as perfect as possible, going to the gym or going on diets, because magazines and books for women, written BY women, tell them too.

However, one point I really disagree with anyone on is that men are apparently not sexualised as much, or in the same way. This may be true in the case of the game industry, but in the media as a whole, I may even argue men are sexualised more.

All I ever hear at work from my predominantly female team are that they watch tv shows, buy magazines, listening to musicians, etc, because a fit, shirtless man is involved somehow. And this tends to be the case in bars I've been to, and my predominantly female family also.

Ironically, on jobs I've been to with male colleagues, or my male friends, I've very, VERY rarely spoken about the kind of women we're attracted to, and often when we do, it's more about their character than their visual appearance.

Call me shallow, weak, intimidated, or having little in a way of self-esteem, but I often I feel I can't compete with the expectations of most women out there. And yet, here I am, on a forum catered for my tastes, telling me I'm a bad person because I play Dead or Alive. Am I really the minority here. I'm I really a bad person for not allowing it to be acceptable for women to self indulge in their physically perfect man, but I'm not allowed to do the same for women?

Agree... Bu-u-u-u-ut. And this is a stinky but, "feminism is a philosophy that focuses only on problems of one gender". So, in today's world, can we please go for everyone being equal in law? So, women must go to the army too and can be drafted (example).

"Call me shallow, weak, intimidated, or having little in a way of self-esteem, but I often I feel I can't compete with the expectations of most women out there. And yet, here I am, on a forum catered for my tastes, telling me I'm a bad person because I play Dead or Alive. Am I really the minority here. I'm I really a bad person for not allowing it to be acceptable for women to self indulge in their physically perfect man, but I'm not allowed to do the same for women?" - Terramax

you, good sir, just wrote my thoughts!

hooksashands:

Yoshi Bibi:
MovieBob is not trying to explain why women are the only ones with a case; he is explaining why women have a stronger case. He goes over this in the video.

Except women don't have a stronger case. More accumulated examples, maybe. But the fact is almost every male character created within the last nine years falls into similar territory, representing one or more of the following archetypes:

-Obscenely muscular, swearing beefsoldier.
-Androgynous manboy with unlimited supply of wangst.
-Average build guy who must have an obligatory scar to show he's still badass.
-Short brown hair mary sue.
-GAY AND FEELING FAAAABULOUS
-Goth prettyboy swordsman who is entirely too serious.
-Comic relief fat guy. Loves to eat.
-Irritating thief dude. Greedy and a womanizer.

I could keep going but what's the point.

Yoshi Bibi:
You're allowed to have whatever reaction to video games you desire. If you want to get a boner at the near-nude characters male or female, go right ahead. If you want to feel diminished at the near-nude characters male or female, go right ahead.

No shit? Thanks for pointing out my options as far as the obvious is concerned.

Yoshi Bibi:
Your door can swing whichever way you like.

Hence the double-hinge.

Yoshi Bibi:
The point bob is addressing is the trend in video games as well as the obvious primary intent behind those aspects. He is not addressing you as a single person with personal reactions to the video games.

No, he specifically discourages men from sharing the same outrage because "omg wemen hav it so much worss u dun undarstandz!", then goes into turbo bullshit mode by telling men that they are cultivating both an unrealistic body image for women (to make them feel bad) and the same for themselves (to feel more confident, somehow). By extension of your logic, women who get pissed off about this are just having a "personal reaction."

In your face, Bob!!!

Ramzal:

hanzkidz:
Femnist frequency: Hey do you know that games are sexist!!!

Me: yes we know it's a problem, now tell us something we don't know.

Group A: OUR SAVIOUR HAS COME!!! A TIME OF SALVATION IS COMING!!! ALL HAIL THIS VIDEO!!!

Group B: WHAT THIS IS F*&*ING RETARTED, THERE IS NO WAY THAT THIS WILL SOLVE ANYTHING AND IS JUST PLAIN STUPID

Me: Guys could you shut up your making me a bit upset

Journalist: SEE THE GUYS AT GROUP B ARE EVIL, SEXIST, MYSONGINISTIC BUNCH OF ENTITLED BRATS, WHY DON'T YOU LEAVE THIS POOR GIRLS ALONE AND GO BACK TO 4CHAN!!!

Me: Ok you win the argument, now can we please stop this and fix this problem already?

Group B: HAH SEE THAT!!! YOU GUYS SUCK AND YOUR ALL TO IMMATURE TO ACCEPT THAT THE MEDIUM CAN BE CRITICISED AND THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AT ALL

Me: Ok now would you please shut up so we can figure out how to adress this issue!

Group A: NU UH WERE RIGHT BECAUSE OF THE FOLOWING REASON...

Me: Guys, all this caps are hurting my eyes.

You do know that there aren't just two groups with the same opinions, right? There's hardly an issue to address. It's a subject that's inflated for no reason. Your "Group A" are trying to do something right but losing sight of the fact that not all women are objectified. Or even that they themselves have objectified women at times. Be it if you'd call a woman a whore, a skank, a slut but think one is only good for their body. And truth be told, there isn't a straight or bisexual person on this planet that hasn't seen a great figure and undressed them with their eyes.

Same goes for women who do the same to mean. And as for your "Group B" it's a matter of realizing that it still does happen. Granted, not as much as Group A claims but it still does happen at times. However often it hard to prove. Seeing as how your could-have-been boss will NOT outright say "You know what? Your breasts aren't big enough. Next!" Sometimes people fill in that gap of "You treat me this way because I'm a woman/man/black/Eskimo!" But not everyone does.

Honestly the solution to this minimal issue is simply seeing people as people. Sure women are women and men are men, but we are one people. You may want to chill a bit with the troll posts.

And this is why I prefer to read other people comment rather post one myself, there are always people who are smarter than you.

I think my last comment is probally the equivalent of watching a noob Dota player who already played 5 or more matches thinking that he knows everything about the game only to get owned by someone who knows alot more than he does.

"The issue of the media promoting grotesquely unrealistic body standards for women is a problem, because those standards are still actively used against women all the time."

Bull$#it!

And that's also what I was screaming at my screen when I heard this.

When it comes to Bob and Anita I just can't help to see how monstrously wrong they are about understanding the issue at hand.

I'm not denying that there aren't women who aren't getting hired because they don't fall into a particular category of a beauty standard, especially when the person who is supposed to hire them is a man. But the FACT those two willingly tend to overlook is that this also applies to men when the hiring is done by a woman.

There are also standards of beauty set to men. You can't point to a male boss who hires a voluptuous female assistant and call "Foul!" when a female boss also hires a 6-foot tall good looking dark-skinned guy with a six-pack as her assistant (or whatever the beauty standard that female sets to her assistant happens to be). If you're the 5-foot bald fat guy (which gladly I'm not) you can kiss your job goodbye. Just because there are more male bosses in the workplaces than there are female, doesn't give anyone the right to call foul here.

The issue here is that it has NOTHING to do with particular stereotypes in some stupid video game and EVERYTHING to do with what our brains consider to be beautiful. Pretty people like to be surrounded by other pretty people (or things). Ugly people want it even more so. All the movies, games, magazines - yes, they are filled with pretty women, but there are also pretty men in them. This is just how our brains work. Trying to struggle or fight against this is like trying to empty an ocean with a bucket. Anita is just building a giant straw man argument here and hopes to revel in the admiration of her sycophantic fans once she knocks it over.

The thing is that some women, like Anita, LOOOOVE to make it personal.

They see a particular female stereotype in a video game/TV series/movie/fashion magazine and they automatically think that this is somehow a comment addressed to them over how they should look or behave - when in fact it is not. The video games she plans to "review" are purposely aimed at psychologically adolescent male audiences. They are bound to have these ridiculous female stereotypes in them, because that's what the audience is paying for. To make a video and then complain about how unrealistic these stereotypes are, while ignoring this fact, is disingenuous to say the least. And then to suggest that these stereotypes should be positive representations of (what she thinks) a true female should look like - because that is exactly what she is going to do - is cretinous beyond belief and just feeds her narcissism. You don't see me complaining that men in romance novels are not true representations of REAL men.

And comparing Kratos with Mario/Link is disingenuous on Bob's part, since those characters are also geared toward different audiences - that's why Princess Peach and Zelda aren't scantily clad and their tits aren't falling out of their top. That "short fat hairy guys" audience is made up by 12-year-olds (those who think girls give you cooties), many are females.

Pointing out that the buff male body types in these games are self-image fantasies for men playing these games is reaching the boundries of Captain Obvious. Of course they are - that's what the target audience is. Suprisingly there are none in Super Mario games. Gee, I wonder why?

You might not have to look like Kratos, but considering the generousness of Bob's waistline I bet that he probably wouldn't get hired as a construction worker. You see it has nothing to do with the fact that Bob doesn't fall into a particular category of a perceived stereotype of Kratos and everything to do with the fact that he is unsuitable for the job. Women make it personal*, while men look for another job.

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiEOd7Ks8xk

These buff chests and huge boobs games are being made because there is a demand for them and a male audience willing to pay. Games with strong and complex female characters, like Beyond Good and Evil and Mirror's Edge, fail because they lack the audience. Market dictates the demand. It's as simple as that.

100 years ago women had no right to vote. Before that women were being used as bargaining chips by men to make peace between families, pay off debts, or climb higher in the society. Soon there will be as many women in high-income workplaces and executive positions as men. But there won't be any Male-Anita Sarkeesians complaing that the men are being objectified or not treated fairly. And Movie Bob will be fired by her female boss and replaced by Julio from South-America who looks like Enrique Iglesias.

From now on, Bob, please stick to movies.

Side point: I don't know what Bob is trying to say with the picture of bouncer and women wanting to get into a club, but I'm going to preemptive strike him and say, that the reason almost any man can get into almost any club is because men are the ones paying for the drinks. That is not chauvinist, that is just a fact of capitalism.

Side point: there are some excellent posts on previous pages dealing why Anita is wrong on so many issues. The posters that I agree with - Katya Topolkaraeva, Ramzal, Terramax, maximara, and probably a few more whose posts I didn't have time to read.

While I agree that women today are often judged based on their looks and not by their abilities, I do feel the need to point out that the argument of men and women being portrayed unrealistically is a little over simplified. The thing is that is a style of art called Idealism, and it is commom across comics, videogames, movies etc. A good artist to view Idealism in a "nerd culture" manner is Luis Royo. He will create these unrealistically beautiful women and use that as a contrast to dark or horrifying images and themes. The same affect could not be achieved with men because men culturally are not viewed as beautiful. Men are usually portrayed in these mediums as being grotesque or powerful but never beautiful and rarely sexy.

The question though is does this form of Idealism cause sexism or hinder the feminist movement in real life? Well maybe, but when done right it is still art. You can like, you can hate it, you can ignore it but it does evokes emotion and isnt that the point? The whole debate reminds me of the similar "Does violence in games, movies, etc. cause violence in reality?". While it is possible violence could do that to a small percentage of our population the rest of us enjoy a cool gun battle in a movie for what is. Maybe the next time we pick up a game with an overly sexualized women deflecting bullets with a sword and killing legions of warriors we should just chill out and say "Wow that's cool" or "No I don't like it". If it isn't your thing great, work towards making entertainment or art that you are into but dont condemn other people for enjoying their particular pieces of the fiction pie.

Unattractive people of both genders lose jobs cause someone better looking applied.

Know this bob. You owe me (and I imagine nany others) that Jabberjaw episode you teased at the beginning of this. You have yet to deliver, bob!

vxicepickxv:
I'm not really sure what to say other than this is a very professional way of dealing with the subject at hand.

The next question is what do we do about it?

Short answer, wait.

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