The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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It's nice that you are using female from a Japanise fighting game. You could also use hentai game, or any sex game, to further prove your point. I'm glad you have unbiased, smart opinion on this matter.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/igXz_hXKUcE
This video says it all about these "documentaries".

Colour-Scientist:
What I don't understand is the outrage over how much money she received and the amount of people saying that she should give it to charity.
When Extra Credits started a similar campaign, people donated generously and they received more than their target amount. Where was the anger then? Why weren't people telling EC that there were children starving in Africa?

The amount she got annoys me a bit.

I gave EC a dollar (would'a probably gave 5 if they didn't already hit their mark), because I loved their videos, they actually needed it (injury) , and I trusted them to do something good with the excess.

What she got is 3/2 what EC got, and watching some of her videos, it doesn't seem she's all that insightful to deserve it. I highly doubt most of her money is from people who watched her videos and deciding that she is either. I feel she got so much money just for being a female saying "I'm going to make some videos against sexism in videogames". I guess she could prove me wrong...I just don't see it happening though, and you sorta have to put it into scope how much $150k is. That's more than the vast majority of people make in a year.

However, I think any actual outrage is unjustified and she definitely doesn't deserve any flak for money she got that she didn't even ask for(I know I sure as fuck wouldn't turn down $158k, even if I was going to have to use it all and couldn't pocket it), and it's not as if everyone who gets large amounts of money deserves it in this society and I don't see outrage that NFL players aren't giving away their generous pays to charity.

I always get a kick when people say this holds women or men back. Does anyone really expect a women to be a DD cup star athlete. Or a man to be able to hold a job down raise a family and have the rock hard body of greek god. If so point and laugh at them.

The rest of us work in the real world and use games as an escape from it. i will use one of those girls now as a point Julie from lolliepop chain saw. Most guys would be tired of here by the weeks end.

Please let it go people who are doing this don't care about real women. No there in it for fast money and attition. If it bugs you so much don't play it. The promblem is the second you try to stop someone else from playing it. You become a new promblem. Plus even if she makes this video the only people who will watch it are already in her camp.

corrosiveblood:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/igXz_hXKUcE
This video says it all about these "documentaries".

I dont know who the person wanting to make this series is, and i'm really not against it.... But yeah, asking for money to do it is outrageous. There are plenty of series on Youtube that are free, this really does come across as a horrible con-job to get money for doing near to nothing. If you support this type of thing, then good, but in this case, sorry but you're getting suckered out of your cash plain & simple.

Just in case nobody linked this video yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QE6YtkbjGw

Whenever sexism issues are brought up, this is the first thing that comes to my mind! ;)

Xanthious:
I noticed Bob conveniently ignored that men are indeed objectified in much the same way as women in things like trashy romance novels, daytime soap operas, TV shows like Desperate Housewives and Gray's Anatomy, or even movies like Twilight and I could go on. Last I checked there aren't hordes of men getting in line to buy soap boxes to stand on while they get all indignant on the internet about that though.

It's because men generally accept their objectification. Don't really know why, though.

OT: The problem doesn't lie in how women are portrayed, but about how women WANT to be portrayed. I find it silly to be honest.

Bob's argument builds upon men idealizing muscles and brawn, which isn't really the case looking at the kind of hate games like Gears of War gets. It specifically show that men (at least the gamer part) aren't able to look past the aesthetics. I don't really get that either, that people somehow can't accept that it's a fantasy they are looking at. It doesn't really matter who's fantasy, just that it IS a fantasy.

Why would I escape from a world where women/men are not fantasized? I wouldn't. I get enough of my realistic interaction with both genders in my daily routine.
Wouldn't it be logical to escape into a world (game in this case), and away from that reality. Isn't this one of the complaints, when people complain about realistic games? This realism encompasses anything in life, including realism.

People already get their daily dose of realism from, well...life. Fantasy builds upon escapism, so I really don't understand why someone would find it a problem that there are fantasies in media. I mean, men don't hate Twilight, because of how it establishes female fantasies, but rather that it is a shitty book series.
The ONLY real problem would be, if you expect your reality to live up to your fantasy. Though, that is a problem not to blame on the game, but on the society and individual.

Edit: Apparently, I'm not gamer or a geek, since I'm not misogynistic or sexist.

I think we maybe taking a turn for the better with the new tomb raider game which from what i can tell is the pretty much gonna be like uncharted but with a female lead. I love that they even redid lara's character design to make her for one more realistic and more human

Also can we all please stop with women in games are portrayed sexist. Thing is if you play games designed 12 years old, and then complain about sexism that's like watching a teenage movie (American Pie, ect.) and say its sexists. Instead look at games designed for for a more mature audience such as neverwinter night (1,2), baldur's gate (1,2), Wither, mass effect and the list goes on.

I really wish he had done the other subject he initially started out with...

Also don't agree on many points he makes on this video.
His whole Kratos comparison just doesn't make sense.

Any male character that is fat is usually always portrayed as dumb or silly, just like his reference picture, Rufus.

I'm so tired of this subject and people trying to say that it's not OK for women to be objectified in games because it doesn't happen to men, which it clearly does. Why do people always try and use that same old argument, which doesn't even hold water?

You know, if you're a middle aged, white, average size and weight, Christian or atheist, heterosexual male you really have nothing to say in this world and are to blame for virtually everything just by virtue of what you are.

Chatney:

Falseprophet:
Oh yes, the old "Don't you have more important things to worry about?" fallacy. AKA a cheap way of not responding to the argument present, or more simply, a cop-out.

Had you not taken what I said out of context and acted as though it was my entire case rather than a closing suggestion, I would've said you have a point. As it stands, however, you're just ignoring my arguments.

Please read my post again and respond to it in full, rather than acting as though all I did was suggest that we focus our attention elsewhere.

Tada!

Okay, from your original post, I've read it over and basically concluded three things about your argument:
1 - Bob concentrated on an argument that was pointless
2 - The Videogame Industry is not to blame for sexism, which apparently Bob claims it is
3 - Instead of pointing out "easy" targets in media, we should be concentrating on real societal issues with regards to sexism.

My response:
1 - I have to disagree here. I feel that this argument does need debunking because I see it used as a defence all too often. The whole "men are objectified too" thing is extremely problematic to me and I could really do with seeing it less. Plus, Bob only has five minutes for these. He had to concentrate on one issue or he'd barely have time to make a coherent argument.

2 - No, the videogame industry is not to blame for sexism. Nobody ever said it was. It does however, feature a great deal of it in the content it produces, and that is a problem that should be addressed. Something "as utterly trivial as a videogame" is the keystone for a huge amount of youth culture, and the kids and teenagers raised playing these games will draw information about the world from them, as well as how to react to the world. This is why kid's shows have anvilicious aesops - to make sure the kids don't get taught how to be dicks.

3 - Media is, was and always will be reflective of the culture that produces it. Furthermore, media since its inception has in turn affected society. If there is a problem in the media industry, then it is reflective of a problem or is exacerbating the problem. Either way, addressing a format that reaches millions of people and altering its content for the better is a much stronger way to combat sexism than say, kicking one solitary misgynist in the nuts. It's just the way our culture works.

If I've misunderstood any of your points, let me know.

Sorry if this seems antagonistic, it isn't meant to be.

mrhateful:

animehermit:

Shirokurou:
Let's start a kick-starter on how Twilight is sexist to men, vampires, werewolves and native Americans.

Also, that Jabberjaw ep is a must now, Bob.

Actually Twilight is more sexist to women than anything. Being written by a female doesn't make something less sexist.

If that is true then either all the women who saw it and loved it are: 1 stupid, 2 sexist themselves and shouldn't have any right to call out games or 3 twilight was not sexist and just a movie designed for women.

It's the number 1 more than anything.

Any reasonably intelligent woman would hate twilight for the message it portrays.

Sorry Bob but work place discrimination exists on an absurd number of levels and at the end of the day the only avenue through all of it is having connections.

You can't get a job if you're old. You can't get a job if you're young, or rather inexperienced. But no one will ever tell you how much is enough. You can't get a job if you're ugly enough- yes even men. Women statistically have higher standards for what makes a male look good than the other way around. You can't get a job if you're not personable enough. If you look too good then you're perceived to just be a bag of air masquerading as a human. If you're too fat you're regarded as a liability, and if you're too skinny then you're just anorexic. Hell, you can't find a job for the simple fact that you've been unemployed long enough.

At the end of the day the things I find so irredeemable about the Tropes project is the simple fact that she's asking for money, apparently can't work her head around how the business works, and has to focus on this over legitimate feminist issues. It's quaint that depictions of women in video games undercuts her self image, but most people can look at that sort of thing, recognize the target audience and move on. It's bad enough that she can't even spot contradictions in her own argument as you see with one of the rewards being stickers of female characters heads photo-shopped (poorly) onto male characters when she also recognizes the female-who's-just-a-guy-with-boobs trope. Then again, she probably can't recognize IP infringement either. You don't off Scot free because you Photoshopped something you didn't create onto something else you didn't create.

Things could be better but when women are so fixated on the pay gap (an ironic myth when you actually study employment demographics. Women make less money yet the ten most dangerous jobs in the US are still dominated by men, men work longer hours, and men in leadership positions still value profit over a good working environment) I have a hard time taking employment discrimination seriously. Employers discriminate over everything. Welcome to life.

5ilver:
Darn, Moviebob, here I was thinking my opinion of you couldn't drop any lower.
Probably the most painful part of the clip was "women won't get a job because they look mediocre but men will because who cares about what men look like". Idk how it's like in the good ol us of a, but here in the EU, it's pretty much identical.
You don't look as fit as an underwear model(either male or female)? Gratz, you just lost out on a TON of job opportunities.

The entire thing just stank of double standards and white knight nonsense to me and I'm not even anti-feminist :(

Don't know about the example, but I agree with the sentiment.

Male distaste for feminists isn't a videogame based phenomenon, men aren't annoyed because women are lobbying for Lara to have smaller breasts. Believe it or not...it goes deeper.

I haven't watched much Feminist frequency, because...she seems like a bit of a prat, by my reckoning. I will plug girlwriteswhat as someone who speaks about gender issues that is worth listening to.

http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat

She is awesome.

Tokokizora:
I think we maybe taking a turn for the better with the new tomb raider game

no we don't, because:
- In this game you get to rape lara if you won't help her! And they make her weak, so she can do it only with your dirty musculine help!
Somehow femitists don't like new lara either

Blade_125:

Rednog:
I still face-palm when I hear talk about the whole And yes before anyone goes "oh but there are much bigger problems with this controversy," I know. But if she can complain about something like Legos when there are huge human rights violations in the world in regards to females, I can complain about parts of her nonsense.

If we can't fix sexism here how can we hope to fix it elsewhere. Your argument doesn't hold up. There are millions starving in other countries so I shouldn't give money to the local food bank?

I never understand why so many people use the doctrine of relative filth. Maybe because it's easier than trying to fix the problems. It's worse somewhere else so why should I bother fixing something not as bad but closer to home.

You kind of missed the point, I put that there because I anticipated someone excusing her bs and saying oh you should over look her faking being a gamer and her baiting 4chan, she's doing it for feminism as a whole. I didn't condemn her for choosing to do an insignificant topic like Legos when there are much larger problems in the world. I'm condemning her presentation of her topic, not the topic itself. There is a big difference.

1: The portrayal of sexes in video games is no different than the portrayal of sexes in any other form of storytelling over the course of human existence, right back to the earliest identifiable "humans". Since the beginning, men have always been about ability over appearance, and women about appearance over ability. And for the longest time, keeping this distinction has been very important for the survival of the human race; it is only the last couple hundred years that society has advanced to the point where the distinction between the two sexes may no longer be relevant. Thus our storytelling reflects it. Expecting our storytelling to somehow do a 180* almost overnight in this kind of time frame is beyond crazy; these things take time and effort, and the cultural/social situation must stay stable in a way that supports that change for a very, very long time.

2: We all understand what the issue they have is. But you know what? From all intents and purposes, women as a whole don't seem to give a flying fuck about putting themselves in a position to change things. They seem content to direct the men to change things, and when we try and fail or admit we don't know how because we're not women and we don't know how you think, what you want and haven't had the same life experiences as you have, it does nothing but make women more angry.

But instead of actually trying to fix the problem themselves, women seem content to just yell and pout more about the issue, and threaten not buy games - which really has no effect, since you're usually not an important part of the market of the game you're boycotting anyway.

3: It think most of the legitimate rage that she got was that she made $150,000 dollars for something that many of us could've done in 1 episode FOR FREE. As a matter of fact, didn't you, Moviebob, do an episode of Game Overthinker that addressed exactly what she is talking about.....for free?

Yay an episode of The Big Picture which relates slightly to the... Big Picture. (not that I'm complaining about the random movie & comics info but the title is horrendously misleading most of the time).

News flash: Women are people too.
Next week: Politicians lie, bears shit in the woods and the Pope etc.

The only difference between women are people and the rest up there is that sadly we(ie the people with the power) keep forgetting that fact and need reminding.

Anyway gaming needs to analyze this shit more and stop being so fucking defensive ALL THE FUCKING TIME and moderate its response... there is a difference between a few odd comments... and half of them >:|
Internet I am disappoint.

So...

Valve is doing pretty awesome then. A Physics Phd is saving the world in a suit to boost his survivability being assisted by a multiracial group of rebels with a main female lead who has realistic body proportions and is a total badass. The only stereotype might be that goatees make you awesome.

The game industry needs more Gordon Freeman's and Alyx Vance's.
imageimage

Paragon Fury:
for free?

On a weekly commission :)
I wouldn't call that "free" but yeah he has the luxery of choosing his job and decided to takle this issue as he had an opinion and a way to voice it... in over 140 characters :P

This is a 5:40 video. If he had gone out of his way to do double (or pushing towards that limit as the Escapist gets pissy about longer vids) hence double his demanded workload then I'd have considered it free ;)
If he has done it elsewhere then you can call that publicity which creates demand for his commissions which, (you get the idea).

Rednog:
[quote="Blade_125" post="6.379179.14858158"][quote="Rednog" post="6.379179.14858131"]You kind of missed the point, I put that there because I anticipated someone excusing her bs and saying oh you should over look her faking being a gamer and her baiting 4chan, she's doing it for feminism as a whole. I didn't condemn her for choosing to do an insignificant topic like Legos when there are much larger problems in the world. I'm condemning her presentation of her topic, not the topic itself. There is a big difference.

Appologies Rednog, I misunderstood your post. I am not a believer in the ends justify the means. I haven't watched her lego video, although I saw a snip in her promotional video and thought it a bit unfair to be negative on the amle firefighters. To be a firefighter the requirement is how much weight can you carry, so of course it will be predomenantly male.

However I do think the argument over the controller not being on to be a rather silly argument (I didn't even notice when I watched as I was listening to the arguments). We don't know what was going on and it could have been poor editing. Even if it isn't we don't know if she is a fake gamer or not based on what we saw. Most likely it was simply trying to act for the video.

Amaror:

Eri:
I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

WHAT? It got to 150.000?
I thought it was pretty manipulative of her to ask for much money (6000) just to talk about a topic she knew quite a few people cared about.
I predict that the videos will not be well researched, well made, or all in all good.
I am not saying the sexism anger thrown towards her is justified or anything, but i do thing that she's using the fact that many people care about this topic to make some quick money.

Go watch the vids. You will find that you are completly correct in your prediction of the vids being poorly researched. They are pretty much just lists ripped from TV tropes, with the occassional factual error thrown in. The vids show no sign of the methodology or objectivity and are presented in a hostile and militant manner (women are refered to as "we"/men refered to as "men").

Kickstarter, man. One of the greatest tools for exploitation the internet has ever seen.

pyro42:

mronoc:

This is a world view completely lacking in any sense of nuance, there's no reason everything has to be one extreme or the other. Expecting people to be prudent and responsible in their behavior and in the creative works they produce isn't advocating censorship.

Censorship is a cold, binary thing, "Material X contains content Y, content Y is inappropriate, material X is banned." This is a call for conversation: Rather than deciding that something is objectionable based solely on content, we should be looking at the context of that content, and what the overall works says about that content, and then not ban something if we decide that what it's saying is objectionable, but simply be aware of the potentially harmful messages to which we're being exposed.

As far as a solution to objectification, that should be fairly obvious: Creators should treat female characters as they would any other, give them fully developed personalities, and have them act (and dress) logically within that personality. Objectification doesn't come from sexualization, but through sexualization lacking any other context, i.e. a female characters with no defining characteristics beyond their body and their sexuality.

i do agree with you to a point, first off yes i think we tend to go way to far one way or the other with issue, and i completely agree that censorship is one slippery slop. i really wish we, as humans, could find middle points on these issue, but looking at things like Foxs News and well pritty much any other 24 news channel i relise that there will always be crazys and they always have to loudest voice.

however, as my lit. teacher once said, for the most part, men suck at making good female charioteers, now there are exceptions but for the most part he is right, i think it's because most of us men don't know what motivates women, that is why i think the real solution is to bring is women writers, have story conferences, hash out motivations, wants needs, and the like. really i think most of the sexism in video games is laziness. just my thoughts on the matter

I think the real issue is the assumption that what motivates women is so different than what motivates men. People should just start writing humans, obviously gender informs who a characters is in regards to how they respond to expectations society places on them based on gender, but it doesn't define a person more than any other singular aspect. It would seem to me that if a writer can't understand how expectations based on gender shape the outlooks of female characters in contrast to male characters, they he's probably glazing over that aspect in regards to male characters as well, in which case it wouldn't matter whether or not he understood gender from a female perspective, because all characters would effectively be genderless, but then male writers assumes that the female character have to behave differently, because they're female, and they end up producing an effort comes across as false and arbitrary.

Totally agree on the laziness idea, but really that just means it's more important to be aware of what we're consuming. It's a lot easier to subconsciously normalize ideas when no one realizes it's happening. If someone's intentionally saying something insidious about gender, it's pretty easy to pick out.

4RT1LL3RY:
So...

Valve is doing pretty awesome then. A Physics Phd is saving the world in a suit to boost his survivability being assisted by a multiracial group of rebels with a main female lead who has realistic body proportions and is a total badass. The only stereotype might be that goatees make you awesome.

The game industry needs more Gordon Freeman's and Alyx Vance's.
imageimage

I'd say it needs less Alyx Vance.

She doesn't do anything, is basically useless, the only person who listens to her is a person who is PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of refusing her or talking back, and the only helpful thing she has done is make a robotic dog that occasionally saves you and occasionally lifts a heavy object for you and could easily be replaced by A: More Bullets and B: The Gravity Gun.

She basically the "girl next door" trope personified.

Gaming needs more Dr. Hasley/Cortana (Halo), Pre-Other M Samus Aran(Metroid), Bayonetta and Lightning (FFXIII).

Blade_125:

Fusioncode9:
I don't care that she's making these videos, I care that she asked money for them. Plenty of people have done these kind of videos for free, but she needed 6,000$ to do them. And thanks to the internet she now has over150,000$ to put in her pocket. Wonderful job guys, no I'm sure she'll spend every cent of that on the tropes videos.

It really irks me that you earn as much money as you do. I don't think you deserve that much, and even though that doesn't impact me in the slightest I am still going to complain about it.

LOL

.... Earn....... Priceless.

OT: You're incredibly naive if you don't think men aren't judged on their appearance in the workplace. We may not be expected to look like Kratos but the ideal body image for a male is just as unhealthy as it is for a female.

3quency:

Chatney:

Falseprophet:
Oh yes, the old "Don't you have more important things to worry about?" fallacy. AKA a cheap way of not responding to the argument present, or more simply, a cop-out.

Had you not taken what I said out of context and acted as though it was my entire case rather than a closing suggestion, I would've said you have a point. As it stands, however, you're just ignoring my arguments.

Please read my post again and respond to it in full, rather than acting as though all I did was suggest that we focus our attention elsewhere.

Tada!

Okay, from your original post, I've read it over and basically concluded three things about your argument:
1 - Bob concentrated on an argument that was pointless
2 - The Videogame Industry is not to blame for sexism, which apparently Bob claims it is
3 - Instead of pointing out "easy" targets in media, we should be concentrating on real societal issues with regards to sexism.

My response:
1 - I have to disagree here. I feel that this argument does need debunking because I see it used as a defence all too often. The whole "men are objectified too" thing is extremely problematic to me and I could really do with seeing it less. Plus, Bob only has five minutes for these. He had to concentrate on one issue or he'd barely have time to make a coherent argument.

2 - No, the videogame industry is not to blame for sexism. Nobody ever said it was. It does however, feature a great deal of it in the content it produces, and that is a problem that should be addressed. Something "as utterly trivial as a videogame" is the keystone for a huge amount of youth culture, and the kids and teenagers raised playing these games will draw information about the world from them, as well as how to react to the world. This is why kid's shows have anvilicious aesops - to make sure the kids don't get taught how to be dicks.

3 - Media is, was and always will be reflective of the culture that produces it. Furthermore, media since its inception has in turn affected society. If there is a problem in the media industry, then it is reflective of a problem or is exacerbating the problem. Either way, addressing a format that reaches millions of people and altering its content for the better is a much stronger way to combat sexism than say, kicking one solitary misgynist in the nuts. It's just the way our culture works.

If I've misunderstood any of your points, let me know.

Sorry if this seems antagonistic, it isn't meant to be.

This is one of the more intelligent Comments I saw this whole thread.

mrhateful:
Also can we all please stop with women in games are portrayed sexist. Thing is if you play games designed 12 years old, and then complain about sexism that's like watching a teenage movie (American Pie, ect.) and say its sexists. Instead look at games designed for for a more mature audience such as neverwinter night (1,2), baldur's gate (1,2), Wither, mass effect and the list goes on.

MonkeyPunch:
I really wish he had done the other subject he initially started out with...

Also don't agree on many points he makes on this video.
His whole Kratos comparison just doesn't make sense.

Any male character that is fat is usually always portrayed as dumb or silly, just like his reference picture, Rufus.

I'm so tired of this subject and people trying to say that it's not OK for women to be objectified in games because it doesn't happen to men, which it clearly does. Why do people always try and use that same old argument, which doesn't even hold water?

You know, if you're a middle aged, white, average size and weight, Christian or atheist, heterosexual male you really have nothing to say in this world and are to blame for virtually everything just by virtue of what you are.

Yes Video games is a small part of a larger society but video games is a reflection of that society's collective mentality. There are over sexualized females in games because people will buy it not the other way around. We as a society are teaching the wrong lessons on how young boys view females and female sexuality. That women are not sex objects they are people.

Maybe it is time for an heterosexual male to approach the feminist and tell them I agree with your message (if not the whole message than some of the points that are needed to be made).

Maybe it is time for us men to MAN-UP and agree that the over sexualization of women is getting out of hand.

Real men are not intimidated what a feminist wants to say, a real man would take the time to listen and hear EVERYONE out. And only after listening to the others argument would make a intelligent reply of what we think and feel in a mature and constructive way. And maybe you come to say as a actual man "hey you make some valid points" or "I do not see that this is the case because of ..." Not name calling or making a witch hunt out of the issue.

I am not saying tropes is correct, but if we over react you only proving her point.

Djinn8:
Kistarter, man. One of the greatest tools for exploitation the internet has ever seen.

I'll just remind you, Kickstarter is competing with pornography (pissed off partner) and sexual abuse videos... and little children getting sexually exploited infront of a camera...

You will find that like violence, the internet offers many means for its own end. Kickstarter being... fairly small fry. Expensive but not human life destroying.

Paragon Fury:
[quote="4RT1LL3RY" post="6.379179.14859158"]Gaming needs more Dr. Hasley/Cortana (Halo), Pre-Other M Samus Aran(Metroid), Bayonetta and Lghtning (FFXIII).

"Dr. Hasley/Cortana" - too smart also white and straight
"Pre-Other M Samus Aran" - too strong also white and straight
"Bayonetta and Lghtning" - too sexy also white and straight
Sorry, future pro-LGBT, pro-feminist gaming don't need them.

I think that rather than making loose generalisations, Bob should look at the studies on the effects of unrealistic body imagines for men in the media. You know, the thing Bob said totally doesnt matter:

http://news.ufl.edu/2010/02/17/muscle-2/
http://www.casapalmera.com/articles/manorexia-men-with-eating-disorders-on-the-rise/

MonkeyPunch:

Also don't agree on many points he makes on this video.
His whole Kratos comparison just doesn't make sense.

Well, the thing about Bob is that he usually uses strawmanen arguements and hyperbole to make his points.

OT: Im not bothered by the documentary being made, and Im pretty appauled at the responses she got from people. But Im bothered by the amount of money she got, and what she will do with it.

Monxeroth:

Windknight:

Monxeroth:

could it be the fact that some women really don't help that problem at all by simply, oh i dunno
PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS IF THAT IS ALL THEY HAVE TO OFFER

I've lost the link, but a woman in her 40's/50's was elected to a very high role in the american judicary on the merit of her abiliteis and knowledge.

An article on their being elected was awash with comments to he tune of 'what an ugly b****' and 'I ain't taking the opinion of anyone that bad looking seriously.'

yepp, and thats the other side of the coin which is also equally fucked up
women only presenting their appearence as their only worthy aspect
and men/society in general only looking at the appearence to be the one thing of value

You could make a point that after generations of women being judged solely or mostly on their looks, that some young women have internalized the message so much that they believe that their looks is all they have to offer and thus, try to make the most of that. I'm not saying it's right, but hey, some women think that looking good is all they can aspire to- because that's the only way to make themselves stand out. And does that inspire the "women are only there to be eyecandy" or is it an outgrowth of just that attitude?

Just to check. Are these the three arguments?

1: Portraying female video game character's bodies as unrealistically sexy is bad because women some times lose out on jobs because they don't look enough like Lara Croft. Also, nothing like this happens to men.

2: Portraying female video game characters as *only* unrealistically sexy is obviously bad because... it's unfair? Guys are empowered by tubby male characters in video games?

3: Portraying female video game character's bodies as unrealistically sexy is bad because heterosexual guys get off on it, and games are made for heterosexual guys. Portraying *male* video game character's bodies as unrealistically sexy is unproblematic because guys don't get off on it.

Provided I've understood his arguments, here's what I think:

1: I would like to see a source for that. I googled around a bit and couldn't find any clear study showing that this is a bigger problem for women than for men. It's different, sure. Women face discrimination based on weight, while men face it based on height. I also don't see a link between video games and this kind of discrimination.

2: I don't really feel like disagreeing with this. Actually, I'd love to see more body types in video games.

3: I would say that both are problematic, for reasons that have more to do with expectations and body image -- for the person playing the games, and their views on others. In and of itself, don't see anything wrong with getting off on characters in video games.

Comando96:

Djinn8:
Kistarter, man. One of the greatest tools for exploitation the internet has ever seen.

I'll just remind you, Kickstarter is competing with pornography (pissed off partner) and sexual abuse videos... and little children getting sexually exploited infront of a camera...

You will find that like violence, the internet offers many means for its own end. Kickstarter being... fairly small fry. Expensive but not human life destroying.

Fair enough, I was being a bit hyperbolic. Kickstarter is probably lagging somewhere in the region of daytime TV phone-in quizes and lottery tickets in terms of explotation.

templar1138a:
Thanks for pointing this crap out.

When I saw the trailer for the kick-starter, I remained as objective as possible, neither allowing myself to say "Oh god, not this again!" or "Oh god, she's so right!"

In the end, I thought about it and thought, "Yes, there's plenty of stereotyping and objectifying of women in video games. But what's this woman's agenda? There's something about her tone that I don't like. I get the feeling she has a certain sense of superiority to people around her. In a way, she reminds me of Michael Moore..."

I later read that she makes a point about still being a virgin. I have yet to confirm it, but if she does indeed make that as a point to try to validate herself, it says a lot about her agenda and her view of men.

But my ultimate realization came about when I saw the hateful responses to her kick-starter trailer. At first I just thought, "Oh great, the internet's at it again." But then I realized, "Wait a minute, she wanted this to happen. She wanted to be pelted with abuse and hate so attention would be drawn to her kick-starter and she'd get the funds she needs. Not only that, but she could possibly use that abuse as ammunition to push the extreme not-feminist idea that men are inferior to women (if that's her agenda, I honestly don't know, it only occurred as a possibility)."

You had me up to here. She's using it as ammunition that games are so terrible and sexist and blah blah blah. Youtube is not a gaming community and this video was spammed to 4chan (also not a gaming community).

And besides the whole thing was about women in video games not how real people react to her so even if every person giving her grief is a gamer it doesn't prove any of her points.

Blade_125:

Fusioncode9:
I don't care that she's making these videos, I care that she asked money for them. Plenty of people have done these kind of videos for free, but she needed 6,000$ to do them. And thanks to the internet she now has over150,000$ to put in her pocket. Wonderful job guys, no I'm sure she'll spend every cent of that on the tropes videos.

It really irks me that you earn as much money as you do. I don't think you deserve that much, and even though that doesn't impact me in the slightest I am still going to complain about it.

Thanks but at least I EARNED it. I didn't go begging on the internet to make a few internet videos which I could have easily done for free like so many others have.

I guess everyone forgot that video games are for fun, and to not see Joe or Sally McNormalGuy at every turn. I find big breasted super thin women in video games more funny than anything. Besides if there is a single woman---if you exist from this explanation and I hope you don't---and you feel like no one likes you because you have shoulder length brown hair with a B cup and you are overweight by 10 pounds, no one doesn't like you because Lara is thinner and has bigger breasts, they don't like you because you have self confidence issues. If a video game is enough to bring down women to an objectified level and feel less than they are worth, then women need to get more self confidence and not let imaginary people destroy their lives.

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