Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

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Rape vs. Murder

Why is it so much better to take a life than to rape somebody in fiction? Why can videogames allow us to get away with killing thousands of our fellow humans with swords and guns, yet a game like Rapelay drowns in scorn before finding its sales restricted? Is it hypocritical for games to approve murder and shun rape?

It's a topic that comes up with some frequency, and naturally The Jimquisition has all the correct answers ... even if they're probably terribly wrong.

Watch Video

You don't rape in self-defense.
I could defend a game with rape IN it but not a game that is ABOUT rape.

Good points about the victim issue in the case of rape vs. murder.

DVS BSTrD:
You don't rape in self-defense.

So that's why I got kicked out of that self-defence class . . .

*stands up*

*starts slow clap*

Bravo, Jim. Bravo.

It really is something to see a politically-incorrect-on-purpose persona take such a hard stance for a good cause. Bravo.

EDIT: And, of course, thank god for you.

Thank you! I've been driven mad by people claming they don't see harm in rape-jokes when murder-jokes are OK. What's been making me livid is the fact that I haven't been able to express why they are not only wrong, but the implications of making rape-jokes OK are kinda scary. So thank you Jim, and thank God for you!

Well, only because you said "please", Jim.

Um... yes, I agree with your points Jim, but you are missing a part: what about a game that features rape story wise but is not about that? Should that be taboo too? For example, the first quest in Game of Thrones involves chasing a rapist (he raped another dude) and killing him. No problem there, in my book. A rape attempt happens in Heavy Rain too, I don't think it's crossing the line either (well, I didn't fail that QTE).

Of course, a game about raping women is something different to all of that.

Huh. I wasn't aware this was being discussed. But I'm not surprised.

But you've articulated your points very well and I agree completely. Rape should only exist as a carefully-used plot device, not a central game mechanic.

I think you brought up some good points. Where killing a bad guys most people pay more attention to being a hero then how many people they kill. Where rape is you are the bad guy. Murder can be justified, rape cannot.

Varya:
Thank you! I've been driven mad by people claming they don't see harm in rape-jokes when murder-jokes are OK. What's been making me livid is the fact that I haven't been able to express why they are not only wrong, but the implications of making rape-jokes OK are kinda scary. So thank you Jim, and thank God for you!

Well Jim has highlighted some of the cultural and emotional difference between the two things. I don't think he's necessarily proven that one is OK and the other is wrong.

Well I never thought I would say it but. . .

Thank GOD, for Jim!

The first point is kinda invalid by there being lots of games that allow murdering a bunch of unarmed civilians in unnecessarily cruel ways.

But otherwise I agree.

I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

Please bear in mind that my video's intent is not to discuss the right/lack of right of any of these games to exist, at least outside of the throwaway comment near the end. I'm talking about *why* the two subjects are handled differently, not the right/wrong in *how* they are handled. While I may discuss that subject in a future video, it would be too much to discuss it in the same video as this one.

Just wanted to draw the distinction before we get too many more folks trying justifying the use of a rape in a game. In interesting discussion with a LOT of complex and dangerous arguments, and one I may indeed cover later.

When I drink enough to get the nerve!

The other thing that you didn't touch on is that in a video game, killing someone is generally very fast. You shoot them in the head, and down they go. You cut off their limbs, down they go. You fight with someone, maybe tussle with them, snap their neck and down they go. You do it quickly, and then it's over. Rape is a prolonged event. Murder in video games can be easily discarded as irrelevant because it's done and over with very quickly, but rape is something you'd have to stay focused on and actively continue to do. I'll be honest, if I was playing a game that required me to rape someone in order to progress the plot, I'd snap the disc in half and throw it out. Not only is it something I'm not prepared to do, but I don't want anyone else to have to do it either.

Same thing in multiplayer games. If I'm playing Diablo and someone kills me, I restart in town and carry on. I entered the game knowing that I might get killed, and it happened, and yes it kind of sucks but in the end it's not really that bad. If I'm playing a game and another character actually rapes me, it means the other player has to actively continue doing things to me, and I have to sit there and watch it happen, or else try to resist. Again, being killed is pretty much the way of things and it's fast, but being raped is almost exactly the opposite of that.

The irony, of course, is that the word rape has been firmly ensconced in the gamer vernacular for quite some time. Offensive or not, it's there, and odds are it always will be. And that only makes the conversation all the more confusing and awkward.

More perverse in rape. Its attacking innocent people, which in games you dont do. Rape has to many anti civilised things against it. Also i dont want to have to rape a girl or guy to continue a game. I can kill tons because its mostly the enemy or in GTA its shoot a guy. Its dead. Rape is more so, there is more emotional reasons to it and control and everything else. Its horrible and in a game, we can easily shoot a granny than rape them.

We had killing stuff for years, way back to centipede on the atari. Its BANG points regardless if its 3D. Rape is to much negativity emotionality. Unless your a rapess, we cant identify with them. Its more so mentally than killing a pixalated character.

Yes, a villian can do it. Make you hate him and kill him. But i wouldnt want to do it in a game. Its socially abhorrent.

I think another important difference is how killing is shown vs rape in games like rapeply (sp?) in rape games there seems to be an intent that ones gets off to rape while that is not quit the same thing with murder. I don't think I am supposed to be sexually excised by killing a bunch of people in a game. I think George R.R. Martin dose a good job drawing that line. His rape scenes are always horrible, and never containing any detail that could be considered erotic.

Alterego-X:
The first point is kinda invalid by there being lots of games that allow murdering a bunch of unarmed civilians in unnecessarily cruel ways.

But otherwise I agree.

That subject is brought up a little later in the video, though.

My point wasn't to say that in-game killing is ALWAYS justified, more to say that, unlike rape, it at least CAN be justified within the fiction. I was simply drawing a distinction between the two concepts rather than presenting that first point as an absolute.

The one issue with this otherwise fine video is the complaint that whilst theres plenty of advice for women on how not to get raped theres little telling men not to. Its kinda like saying theres plenty self defence advise but nothing telling people not to kill each other, we dont really need to be told and if you were to tell men specifically not to rape, as if they were children or didnt know right from wrong, then it feels like your treating men as if they would rape without being told not to. Ive seen people make the same complaint and it feels a bit like characterizing all men for the actions of few.

Thank god for Jim

DiMono:
The other thing that you didn't touch on is that in a video game, killing someone is generally very fast. You shoot them in the head, and down they go. You cut off their limbs, down they go.

Blink and you can miss it, but I did point out that murder can be impersonal while rape really can't be. It was VERY quickly made though, because I have less than ten minutes of video time (any more would be egregious) and so can't cover everything in detail.

I'm okay with rape being evil but games have gone further then just stopping rape but stopping sex from being in games all together remember the first Mass Effect controversy and hot coffee from San Andreas, we haven't just labeled rape as taboo, we've labeled almost any actual sex as taboo and that's the real problem to me.

Also I want to point out the giving a villain his just deserts for defense of murder falls apart when playing games like Saints Row and God of War.

Yes, I agree with you 100% on every point.

All that being said though, I'm still looking forward to the new Tomb Raider. If any game looks like it could handle the subject matter well it's that one.

Play through Earthbound, see a boss inspired by a child's experience viewing a rape scene, maintain composure, never bring up this stupid, misinformed argument again.

Simple steps to breaking ignorance on this issue.

Stripes:
we dont really need to be told

The fact that quite a few rapes happen seem to suggest otherwise.

And let's not forget, there are instances where rape is so insidious that even the rapist might not realize what he's doing. There have been instances of a man having unwanted sex with a woman and not even figuring that it was unwanted. Or having sex with someone drunk, on drugs, or asleep, and thinking it's okay.

Rape isn't always (often isn't) a violent back-alley thing like we see in movies. I think it would behoove society to make us all more aware of that, and understand that just because we're not forcing someone to do something at knifepoint, we still may be making someone do something they don't want to do, and that it could severely affect them emotionally.

Stripes:
Its kinda like saying theres plenty self defence advise but nothing telling people not to kill each other, we dont really need to be told and if you were to tell men specifically not to rape, as if they were children or didnt know right from wrong, then it feels like your treating men as if they would rape without being told not to. Ive seen people make the same complaint and it feels a bit like characterizing all men for the actions of few.

The problem is that there are way too many people who think that what the victim wore or did in a period before the rape is relevant to the rape, and it's not. Anyone who's first reaction to rape is to question all the victims actions needs to be told why this is wrong. This is why this phrase is said, even if it sounds reductionist at first.

ldgoodpobad:
I think another important difference is how killing is shown vs rape in games like rapeply (sp?) in rape games there seems to be an intent that ones gets off to rape while that is not quit the same thing with murder. I don't think I am supposed to be sexually excised by killing a bunch of people in a game. I think George R.R. Martin dose a good job drawing that line. His rape scenes are always horrible, and never containing any detail that could be considered erotic.

You hit the nail on the head. Murder in games is seen as a means to an end. You shoot and move on. Where as rapelay is taking way more interest in the raping and the negativity in that.

Way i see it, all rapists deserved kill. Fact we all have mothers, so why would we do anything that we would hate to happen to our mums. Your George Martin quote was great....making a game where you, the player, is taking pleasure in what your doing is wrong. Actually the person that would play such a game is wrong.

My captcha says Kiss me.

For a moment... I thought he was going to defend rape. I'm pleased he did not.

Rape is universally bad... but what I don't get is the "Murder vs Sex" in video games argument.

I don't know if i understood you right there but did you say rape is something
"Women just can't physically do", which is just wrong, of course they can force someone to sex as much as a men can do it.
Your next point however, that for the most part only women fear being raped and that it happens a lot more to women is true though.

lord.jeff:

Also I want to point out the giving a villain his just deserts for defense of murder falls apart when playing games like Saints Row and God of War.

I never said it always is justified. I said it CAN be, which is the difference-maker between it and rape.

Well done Jim, and yes, I'm sure someone will go off the deep end just by seeing the title but the blog is very insightful. Keep up the great work.

Seems correct.

I think murder is something that almost every human can be driven to perform. Given the circumstances, if it's you or them. You're probably going to choose to kill. Rape on the other hand is not something the vast majority of people could be driven to perform. There is no, its you or them scenario.

While ethically a game that features digital rape is on the same level as digital murder. I
think culturally its just not going to fly. And you would probably shrugg off a person who plays a Call of Duty, but some one who plays a rape simulator. You should be afraid of. Murder is part of the human condition, rape is not.

Hamlet debates murdering his uncle, not raping him.

I don't know the legality of the issue, but rape should land you a life sentence as with murder imo.

I agree. Rape is definetly on a whole other level than murder in terms of evil.

Stripes:
The one issue with this otherwise fine video is the complaint that whilst theres plenty of advice for women on how not to get raped theres little telling men not to. Its kinda like saying theres plenty self defence advise but nothing telling people not to kill each other, we dont really need to be told and if you were to tell men specifically not to rape, as if they were children or didnt know right from wrong, then it feels like your treating men as if they would rape without being told not to. Ive seen people make the same complaint and it feels a bit like characterizing all men for the actions of few.

Thank god for Jim

My thoughts exactly. Instead of trying to demonize the other gender, we should simply sit down like adults and have a healthy and logical discussion.

One game that I know of that isn't a hentai, that deals with a victim of rape, is I have no Mouth and I Must Scream. In there is one of the 5 protagonists, Ellen, who is the last woman on earth. Her story deals with her trauma of being raped in an elevator, and the psychological horror that reflects the incident.

Jimothy Sterling:

DiMono:
The other thing that you didn't touch on is that in a video game, killing someone is generally very fast. You shoot them in the head, and down they go. You cut off their limbs, down they go.

Blink and you can miss it, but I did point out that murder can be impersonal while rape really can't be. It was VERY quickly made though, because I have less than ten minutes of video time (any more would be egregious) and so can't cover everything in detail.

I'm not sure we're both talking about the same facet of the discussion here, but I'm also not sure I can explain where I think the difference is without it seeming unnecessarily pedantic. I may come back to this later.

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