Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

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Oh thank god for Jim..... I was so worried about watching this.

5ilver:
I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

Again, Dentistry can be justified. You dont NEED to go to a dentist.

Rape is not. There is no justification for Rape, period.

Well discussed. There are, already, some instances listed by other commenters when including the idea of rape or rapists isn't inappropriate in a game (thinking here of The Cheshire's comment about a game sequence of hunting down a criminal whose crime happens to be rape), but the rape of characters - or things like the upcoming 'almost' rape of Croft - is something I do think the industry shouldn't dabble in -- because it isn't something to be dabbled in. It's something that should be treated, when it is treated, with extreme gravity and sensitivity due to the excellent reason that you brought up in the video: there are victims of rape who may end up facing their trauma in such games, they are still alive to do so where murder victims do not have that problem. I think this applies equally to kidnapping and torture in the sense that victims of such acts need to be considered as potentially part of the audience and their well being as consumers and human beings must then be considered when addressing that subject. I don't think the industry and the medium is really well-rounded and mature enough to manage that properly yet, which means they shouldn't do it at all until they are in my opinion. Or, if they are going to have to under some "practice will make perfect" argument, then the content should be walled and optional to players who want to explore that development process, but not inflicted on the whole audience or snuck in without warning on unsuspecting potentially adverse players.

I, personally, don't want it in games I play. That's my opinion, my preference. Others may differ, that is their right. I would be very disappointed if it became the 'it' thing to put in games to show off their maturity or dark fantasy or whatever trends, because then the ability to avoid it, as I wish to do, would be diminished.

And because this thread is already moving in a direction I don't fancy getting a migraine over - rape is not comparable to a paper cut - I will leave it at that and be on my way. Well done Jim, thank gods for you.

I really like it when Jim shows his more humble side. It shows that he is more than his persona which he projects for laughs and entertainment value. It shows us that he really is very intelligent and understands the nuances of these kind of discussions.

I think most of this video is spot on and I agree that rape is far more reprehensible that murder. My main reason isn't really about all the stuff to do with power fantasies and stuff like that, but after a rape a person's life can be completely destroyed. They have to live with that utter horror for the rest of their lives, while with murder the pain ends fairly quickly. It's a fate worse than death in my eyes.

But I don't agree that there's no "grey area". While I'm not in any way trying to say that justification for rape is okay in any circumstance, or blaming anyone for getting raped, there is more to it than just a monster forcing himself upon another person. Like when someone is intoxicated. The person made the choice to be in that state, and knew that if they continued to drink (or do whatever) once they had started, that they would become increasingly unable to defend themselves against some kind of attack. That doesn't make the attack okay in any way, but they must have been aware of the consequences of their actions and what that could potentially lead to. There's also the possibility of the accusation of rape being used to selfish ends. It is rare, and does not excuse real rape in any way, but it does happen. Some people consent and then afterwards claim they were raped so they can sue someone or use it for some other selfish malicious goal.

Was Dave Chapell talking about rape or prostitutes BTW?

I agree with Jim's overall statement of Rape in video games, however there are two things issues I have with his presentation.

1. He states that Women are unlikely to rape men. While based on definition this is true based on the FBI standards of Rape( Forced Penetration Sex). That does not remove women from doing never molesting or forcefully erecting a man. Women have and are capable of molesting and sexually violating males, but Women can not rape. They don't have the tools to do so.

2. Dave Chapell was a horrible excuse for Rape, almost to the point where it was a strawman argument. The whole joke was women dressing like sluts and men drooling about them. That joke was not about a man forcing a woman down, but simply being a pig or disrespectful to one. It's a related issue, yes, but it weaken Jim's case for something that was almost a guarantee slam dunk.

Great video, but one thing I disagree with is the idea that we should be telling rapists not to rape rather than victims not to be victims. I don't mean it's the victim's fault, I just think that rapists can't be convinced otherwise by being told not to, whereas victims may be able to take measures against being raped.

Jimothy Sterling:

lord.jeff:

Also I want to point out the giving a villain his just deserts for defense of murder falls apart when playing games like Saints Row and God of War.

I never said it always is justified. I said it CAN be, which is the difference-maker between it and rape.

Yeah I actually show your defense to a similar statement in the post above mine right after posting. It just seem weird to start your argument with your weakest point.

You make very good points. However, I'm confused as to whether you think that it's just rape as an objective in games that is beyond justification (to which I would agree), or that no depictions of rape at all, by anyone, towards anyone, should ever appear in games (to which I would disagree).

wizzy555:
Was Dave Chapell talking about rape or prostitutes BTW?

He was talking about treating women differently for dressing that way, which is a dangerous attitude to influence. It's why I said it was "indirect." He wasn't specifically talking about rape, but the argument rings so true to some justifications for rape that it's a fairly troublesome attitude to espouse.

Of course, your mileage may vary and I'm certainly not saying "BAN THIS SICK CHAPELL FILTH" or anything.

lord.jeff:

Jimothy Sterling:

lord.jeff:

Also I want to point out the giving a villain his just deserts for defense of murder falls apart when playing games like Saints Row and God of War.

I never said it always is justified. I said it CAN be, which is the difference-maker between it and rape.

Yeah I actually show your defense to a similar statement in the post above mine right after posting. It just seem weird to start your argument with your weakest point.

I like to build to a crescendo. I'm the opposite of Nintendo's E3 press conferences in that way.

At the start of the video when you suggested there might be a shit storm, I got worried about what your opinion would be, but thankfully it was the view of a normal, well balanced, non-rapist. So yeh, the only people who should disagree with you are those seeking attention.

Keep up the good work mate, Long time fan.

Captcha: Fish On, You know me too well, captcha.

Hrm, tough subject. Not just for video games, but other medias like music, books, and films touch this issue carefully.

I think Jim is right with his analysis between rape and murder: The latter is something finite and, while it does end a life, that life no longer goes through any suffering. Plus there is the context for the latter (murder) to consider as there are times in our society where it is justified: Capital punishment, times of war, or self-defense cases are examples where murder is necessary.

For the former, its almost like torture, something that is also rare in video games and other entertainment media. In fact, I think this is a form of violence that is similar to rape but we don't get to see so much, or actually do, in video games. I'm talking about a game where we have to actually apply rusty, surgical equipment to a person bound to a chair (their gender is pointless), and we score points by inflicting great deal of pain to the person through various instruments to make them talk or raise our "excitement/combo" meter. Its like using the mechanics of "Guitar Hero" or any rhythm based game, but instead of seeing flashy colors, we're seeing how we horribly mutilate a person.

I think this is why things like torture and rape are more common actions performed by a villain in a media, to establish that they are a villain. It works fine in the typical Hero's Journey structure Western media has since it could serve as a reason why the villain has to go down. Unlike murder, its hard to come up a reason why a "hero" in any kind of media would be justified in raping/torturing anyone.

However, I think video games are in a tough scenario about this since most want to give the option of being 'evil' in their games. The "Fable" series are a good example of this where they state you could be a bad guy--but you can never be as evil as torturing or raping a victim in these games. Games like "Bioshock" could also try easing that disturbing feeling of being a villain in these games by making the little sisters you violently murder a "fade to black" scene, after seeing her attacking and acting like an animal when you grab her and made your choice. Its like the game saying, "Okay your the bad guy but we'll try not to make you feel so bad for being evil. We'll just cover up the part where you violently end the life of an innocent while making them look less human."

Denitsts, really, except maybe for a really bad dentist, it's not traumatic. Also if you actually at least take care of your teeth a little it shouldn't be painful, except again if it's a bad dentist. And although it's not my favorite thing to do I don't hate it, so not everyone hates it, the way you put it, you could argue that anything that isn't done for enjoyment, or cause joy, should be hated, say washing the dishes, if you don't enjoy it for some reason, is a chore, but i doubt most people would say they hated it, except maybe as a casual exaggeration.
Also the circumstances of rape and killing are rather different, killing is an act that can happen under many different circumstances, from accidental manslaughter to assassination and genocide, while rape has a rather narrow set of circumstances in comparison, yes the story around it may vary, but the broad central dynamic remains, there is one or more victims and one or more aggressors, like there is no such thing as accidental rape, it might happen when the aggressor isn't in their right mind, but it's still a conscious, more or less, decision. For example, in a fight, not to the death, one fighter may kill the other due to an unlucky blow or lack of experience whilst using some potentially lethal move. But the act of rape, if uninterrupted, lasts usually until the aggressor is satisfied, which is longer the few seconds that it required that fighter to accidentally kill his opponent.

Although I agree with most of what you said Jim, I wouldn't say Rape is more primal, or however it was you put it, then murder as both have been happening since the damn of time. Animals kill each other and very will often try to mate with another that doesn't want to. Be it for dominence reasons or simply because their in heat, animals just don't tend to have the same thaught plain as us so handle it better... or something, I don't know. Either way Humans DON'T HAVE TO think like animals and should know better, there really is no excuse for rape.

Rape jokes on the other hand, I put in the same catagory as cancer or orphan jokes. I may laugh but I always feel bad 3 seconds later.

The amount of balls it takes to say this stuff makes me understand why he stays hunched behind a large podium.

Kuth:

1. He states that Women are unlikely to rape men. While based on definition this is true based on the FBI standards of Rape( Forced Penetration Sex). That does not remove women from doing never molesting or forcefully erecting a man. Women have and are capable of molesting and sexually violating males, but Women can not rape. They don't have the tools to do so.

Ah, thanks for commenting on that phrase, i was a little bit confused. In my country penetration is also needed for a deed to be considered rape, however it is not important if the penetrator is the victim or the rapist. So women are, by that definition, able to rape.

I loved it. Good for you Jim. Excellent piece.

I do disagree with some of what you said. I think the problem isn't that rape isn't wrong, it's just the grey areas that occur in many of the scenarios. There are circumstances where there is a question of what occurred being classified as rape or not.

The problem we have with killing is what the justification is for killing. The problem we have with rape is not justification, because there isn't any. The problem is whether what occurred can actually be classified as rape. Since we cannot justify the action, we aren't able to attach a redeeming quality to the action. We don't have this problem with killing as we see killing in combat, self defense and such as justified.

In fact, I think we have the same objections in both cases. We object to being the villain and victimizing the innocent and defenseless. People even had issues when

I would argue that this is more akin to the rape situation than most of the killing that goes on in the video game industry. This is also why it caused such a fuss. People were uncomfortable with that, and the victims were impersonal. Rape would be much more intimate and personal.

Well said Jim. Your reasoning was articulate and thorough, like a 23-hit combo to the dick of every detracting moral relativist out there.

Thank God you're here.

One thing that you sort of touched on, but sort of missed is how most games never force you to murder someone. In assassin games like Hitman and AC they always make the villians evil enough for justification. And while games like GTA and Fallout allow for outright murder of innocents, it is never really forced, except police officers which would fight you in GTA, but even then in 4 they wouldn't even really die unless you get a head shot. But you brought up a lot of war games which isn't really murder. Even MW2 didn't force you to shoot those civilians. You didn't show like Condemned where it is actual murder. At least, I think that all murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. If you shoot a guy shooting at you, you didn't really murder him. If you don't kill you die. But yeah, either way, I have to agree rape is worse than death.

Also fun fact: You can be raped in Fallout 2 on at least 2 occasions(one occasion is only for women characters)

GOOD VIDEO JIM! THANK GOD FOR YOU!

I'd also like to point out, that while the discussion of rape and murder are discussed, the subject of Torture isn't brought up either, and is something that may give validity to the argument.

You see in many videogames the character can brutally eviscerate their enemies. Look at Kratos from God of War, how often he doesn't just simply and quickly kill enimies, he takes the time to slowly, and painfully murder them. Ripping off their heads from their sholders, cutting into their brains or yanking off limbs. Much like Rape, Torture takes pre meditation and conviction to accomplish, where as killing can be a reflect or a drive to survive.

I can point out several games that the main focus isn't to simply kill a bunch of bad dudes, but make them suffer as well. Mortal Kombat for one, or any fighter that has a fatality system. Manhunt, Grand Theft Auto, and even Saints Row.

Torture can happen to both good, bad, and innocent people, but it still is usually one sided, with a victim. On the grand scale of things, rape still rates higher as a cardinal sin then torture. I've played games where I've murdered characters brutally, many of us have, but it may be the only true argument against rape in videogaming culture, when an argument like this comes up.

wizzy555:
Was Dave Chapell talking about rape or prostitutes BTW?

He was talking about women who dress in sexy clothing and I don't think it should be taken as seriously as Jim suggested.

I always thaught 'look but don't touch' was the standard but thats just me.

5ilver:
I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.

You're equating being raped to a trip to the dentist? Really? If you were sodomized against your will and I compared it to being splashed with water by a car driving through a puddle, would that be a fair comparison, or would I be an asshole belittling your pain?

When rape is used to some kind of narrative or dramatic effect, and handled with some maturity and understanding, I have no problem with it. When it's used solely to make something "gritty", or as a sick method of titilation, or constantly being used to motivate a female protagonist because for some reason so many male writers can't think of a motive for female characters other than sexual trauma, then you're better off not using it at all. Leave it for better writers.

5ilver:
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Ghost stories notwithstanding, beyond death is also beyond caring. Yeah, the dead might have wounds to heal and wrongs to set back right, but it doesn't matter to them anymore. Whereas the rape victim has to live with it for the rest of her days.

Hmm, come to think of it, Jim covered most of this in his video. Did you even bother to watch it?

Rabidkitten:

I don't know the legality of the issue, but rape should land you a life sentence as with murder imo.

The reason they don't do that is because if murder and rape get you the same jail time, a rapist might just kill his victims when they're done, since they'd have little more to lose. That's the rationale anyway. Of course, the answer is to make the sentence for rape+murder worse than either one individually, but that's hard to pull off with the death penalty off the table.

Anyway, good video Jim, keep up the good work. Thank God for you and all that.

I'm pro rape-in-fiction but damn, you made a great argument, thoug I admit that a game about raping is not a game, it's porn.

You didn't mention that a rape victims have a small chance of geting over it and rebuilding their lives.

If a rape victim plays a japanese game named tentacle bento then they bring to themselves reliving the event.

Also, sex drive is a strong natural irational force so you could argue that killing is done more by willing decision and thus a murderer more accountable for his actions, kind of when in a trial the defendant pleads mental disstress.

I think while these reasons are logical, I think it's not necessarily healthy for our society to put rape on a negative pedestral as some super-special unearthly level of unspeakable horror.

It just makes it harder for victims to come to terms with it. For thousands of years, rape was considered a crime for damaging the father's husband's "property", and it was hard on victims because of that. Now we are starting to put this BS behind us, but maybe it is not much better to tell rape victims that if their own right to their body being violated, that is a huge tragedy, and worse than death, and that it will be a traumatic experience.

Though entirely *trivializing* rape would also be a bad idea, because then just more of it would happen, and I doubt that a culture where no one is troubled AT ALL by getting raped is possible. But at least making it less of a taboo and just treating it as a shitty thing that sometimes happens, would surely help. Maybe a move towards rape fetishists being able to openly enjoy such games, would be a right step towards it.

[Sidetrack]
Jim reads Black Company...?

My already high appreciation for your videos and work has just been augmented by that..

*brofist* More people need to read those books! So good!... >__> *ahem*..
[/sidetrack]

<Topic>
Very good video Jim! On a very tough topic.. pretty well balanced and thought out ramble.. :)
</Topic>

I was going to bring up the point "Killing can involve suffering, but when someone is killed, they are dead, no more pain or suffering. Rape is pure unending suffering, and suffering is bad, so that is why rape is so bad", but you brought it up almost immediately when I thought of it, so thanks lol.

Now I am going to sit back and see if this turns into a flame war.

Edit: I think you handled this issue very well and covered all your bases. This being the internet, someone is going to be offended by what you said, but that is nothing new. Great video, thank god for Jim.

Rabidkitten:
Murder is part of the human condition, rape is not.

I'm not sure I agree. It would be nice to write off rape as an act that only a small handful of imbalanced people would actually commit, but given rape's wide prevalence, even in today's 'civilized' world, it may be that there is something in the human (male?) psyche that has tendencies for rape. An ugly, disheartening part, to be sure.

Rabidkitten:
Hamlet debates murdering his uncle, not raping him.

????

Top Hat:
Great video, but one thing I disagree with is the idea that we should be telling rapists not to rape rather than victims not to be victims. I don't mean it's the victim's fault, I just think that rapists can't be convinced otherwise by being told not to, whereas victims may be able to take measures against being raped.

Except that it works. Because a lot of rapists don't realize they're rapists.

One of the most insidious things about rape is its use in film. A lot of filmmakers have talked about their financiers asking them to put in explicit rape scenes specifically for the titillation of the male audience. There's a whole genre of films such as I Spit on Your Grave that revolve around a really lurid, prolonged rape sequence that tacks on an obligatory revenge sequence only to be able to claim "they didn't get away with it" as some kind of "justification". Even stepping outside of rape, there are so many films which use the device of "male boss asking a potential female employee to show him her breasts" and if she does, it's shown on camera (which implies the audience wants what the boss wants). It really muddies the whole issue when one considers how sexual abuse is being exploited for audience gratification.

There's a rather disturbing chapter in the webcomic Dominic Deegan about an orc price, who in order to protect a woman that he used his royal rights to protect a recently orphaned woman from death was forced to follow a different tribe's policy that a marriage was required to be consummated immediately after the ceremony. By invoking his right to marriage, he was required to rape her.

It's a rather tragic story, and he basically did it only as an experiment to see what the reaction to the character would be. Most of the feedback was unsurprisingly saying it was terrible thing to do. The only positive feedback he got was from a small handful of women, who were rape victims.

AxelxGabriel:

5ilver:
I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

Again, Dentistry can be justified. You dont NEED to go to a dentist.

Rape is not. There is no justification for Rape, period.

it's called the cycle of abuse not that it justifies rape but if child is raped over x amount years by a predator then turns around and does the same because he or she never got help for the abuse then it goes in cycle that needs to addressed. No there is never a just cause for rape however given a person's weak state of mind and enduring amount of abuse he or she might of took it's understandable why the person would repeat the cycle, to make some-one hurt or feel bad as they do.

It's quite simple to me. We've all had a desire to hurt someone at some point, maybe not kill, but hurt is immensely common. Now, very few people have a desire to rape people, fortunately.

That's my primary concern, who is playing these games and most importantly why are they playing them.

Another thing is the interactivity of it. In a book, rape can demonstrate how evil a character is but the reader is separated from that action, even if it's described in detail. If a game actually has the player rape people in the game there isn't that wall of separation between character desires and player desires and that's just creepy.

I rather enjoyed Jim's opinion on this matter; this is a rather sensitive topic so it's rare to see any manner of discussion brought up from it.

My only real issue here is that while he goes into great detail differentiating rape from murder he doesn't quite bring it back into the centre frame of the gaming medium. We can argue whether one is worse than the other as much as we want, but here we never really explore the implications of the simulacra of rape in an interactive medium, and if the rules of simulated violence extend to that of simulated rape.

And that, in of itself, is another very interesting discussion because most people will have the knee-jerk reaction of saying that those rules -don't- extend to simulated rape when in reality the answer isn't that clear, and in that you can see a reflection of how the non-gaming community might have a similar rash response to violence in video games.

Of course, the implication of my last statement suggests that I'm trying to say that rape and violence are one and the same, but for clarity I'll point out that I honestly don't know the answer to a question like that, and I'm more interested in expanding the scope of the discussion.

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