Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

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At the risk of sounding like an ignorant moron I pose my thoughts on the subject:

Rape in my eyes is equally heinous as murder and torture.

What I've never gotten is the clothes argument. Of course you shouldn't tell a victim something to the effect of: "You silly, wearing tight jeans is what got you raped." But wearing certain kinds of clothes can titillate rapists. A friend of mine got catcalled in public because she was wearing shorts and the whole disgusting debacle may have been avoided if she was wearing baggy pants. This is not to say that wearing a Burka completely prevents rape, but dressing conservatively might help you avoid unwanted attention, still I am not one to dictate how women dress. (This is ignoring rape cases were the perpetrator and the victim know each others or were the victims were children)

Of course you can flame me away, have fun!

Contrary to popular belief woman can rape man
BUT
all known techniques to do so are lethal to man
So it will be less about rape and more about killing

Besides that
Yeah, don't rape, just, don't, please!

Very well done.

Before watching this, I was fully on the side of "Murder is worse. Why shouldn't we have rape?", and in 8 minutes you had me fully convinced.

Gotta say Jim, you don't often do that...

So killing in video games is OK so long as it's justifiable in the fiction, such as being the hero and defending yourself in a war game?

And "We all know murder is wrong and are secure in the knowledge we won't shoot someone"? I don't like rape, I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what rape is and we are all secure in the knowledge we know "no means no" and have no inention of drugging a woman (or a man if you swing that way)

What about being the bad guy or the villain? You really can't rationalize walking down the street in GTA games and just blowing the brains out of some innocent person, or driving down the sidewalk, slaughtering dozens before killing off hundreds of police officers trying to stop your rampage. That technically would be unacceptable by this particular argument and GTA 5 would have to be stopped. There are people that like playing an evil son of a bitch in the KOTOR games and MMO, are they bad people for choosing the bad options to execute and extort innocents?

In the end, people need to stop being outraged over the fiction they personally don't like while then playng out horrible acts in the fiction they do like because that's all it is: Fiction. It's not real, it's all the same virtual death, murder, rape, torture, etc, only our opinions on the fictional and illegal acts in the entertainment are different (which is why so many games have the 'moral choice' system btw)

So yes, it is hypocritical when someone complains about "killable children" mods in Fallout 3 and Skyrim to add realism when you can beat the homeless man dying of thirst outside towns to death with a pipe in Fallout 3 and don't say a word about how horrible that act is.

We're trying to apply real world morals, logic, thinking and laws to things that don't exist, which is insane to begin with and it only ends up giving a mob of people the idea they can start dictating what fictional things people can and can't create, which is already happening. I don't like rape either, but I ignore it if it isn't reality because I can, such as not going near those hentai rape games. All the complaints about those games did was advertize for them.

We need a "National Day of No Outrage". I'm starting to shut off anything that has anyone being offended about anything the last year or so.

image

I consider Rape, along with the murder of Children, both actions that shouldn't be used in a game yet. As Jim stated, Rape leaves the victim with no means of self defense, as does attacking a child. However, I think games should be able to include both. Not necessarily as an action that your character commits, but as perhaps part of the narrative. A protagonist who was sexually abused could not only be an interesting new perspective (if handled correctly of course), but could also be a helpful tool in allowing real victims of the crime to feel represented in our medium.

Even if you're killing someone in a war or in self defence, it will most definately have a tremendous effect on the dead guy's family. Killing is worse than rape, but as this video pointed out, you can't really justify rape.

Do I believe playing a video game were you rape someone is worse than playing a video game were you kill someone?
Not really.

Varya:
Thank you! I've been driven mad by people claming they don't see harm in rape-jokes when murder-jokes are OK. What's been making me livid is the fact that I haven't been able to express why they are not only wrong, but the implications of making rape-jokes OK are kinda scary. So thank you Jim, and thank God for you!

Well... he was talking about rape in video games, not jokes. I hate to break it to you, but the whole point of murder, rape, dead-baby, racist, etc. jokes is that they aren't okay. What people find funny about them is their very offensiveness itself: they are enjoyable because they are taboo. So... I don't really see what you're getting at. I don't think anyone actually holds that they are socially acceptable. Are you saying that people should be punished if they make these jokes in public? Pretty sure you can contact your HR department at wherever you work and get people in trouble for making any sort of the above mentioned offensive jokes.

I doubt any one type of offensive joke is more damaging to society than any others. If people are telling rape jokes in a fraternity and the members commit rape, this is probably due to the nature of the fraternity, of which the rape jokes are merely one small symptom. The only time a joke can actually reinforce a behavior is when it results from an already predominant social structure that reinforces that behavior. Attacking the jokes is a waste of time, they are merely a symptom of the disease. All you'll end up doing is eroding freedom of speech.

If you're saying that people should be banned from online services for making these types of jokes, then sure, the companies can ban whomever they want for whatever reason they want. Free speech isn't guaranteed on Xbox live. That shit's up to M$. Hell, they can ban you for getting into political discussions if they wanted to. They could ban you for having "Obama/Romney 2012" in your profile. In order to play on these services they have you sign a ridiculous license agreement that has you give up all of your rights. Of course, it works both ways. You can't really demand jack squat from these companies. If they thought that banning certain types of jokes would hurt their sales they probably wouldn't do it. It's up to them.

I'm going to take an unpopular stance here:

I believe that rape and murder are wrong.

*exhale* There. Now, I know some of you out there may disagree with that sentiment, but I feel that it's an opinion of marginal to great value, particularly in this day and age. I do, however, feel that this deserves clarification; I'm referring to actual cases of either occurrence.

As those things pertain to fiction... I don't care. At all. None of these characters actually exist. There is no trauma being inflicted on the parties involved. There is no long term effect of whatever happens, because they cease to exist in that state once power to the particular screen or device they're connected to is shut off. There is no victim.

I've known several people who've been the victim of rape. Dear friends and, actually, family.

It's horrific. I make a point of not dwelling on it due to the inherent sense of helplessness that it brings, yet I know that they don't have the luxury of doing so.

That said; I'll end with another controversial opinion.

Real life and video games are not comparable.

One thing that isn't really addressed by these arguments is times where people kill innocent people. Take the scene in Modern Warfare 2 where you kill random people in an airport (that scene actually did make me feel sick by the way). They are helpless, they have no way to protect themselves, and none of them did anything to deserve it. I'd say that's a much worse situation than say, having the villain command the PC to rape someone, although I'm sure if that happened in the game it would get much more backlash than it did. Another example is Fable, and other similar games where you can kill anyone you want. There's plenty of unarmed bystanders who you can just take out on a whim.

Of course, rape is never good and killing can be acceptable, but I have to say that killing can be much worse. You have to live with the consequences of having been raped, but people can move past it (I'm not saying that everyone is able to, but there are people who have)and even if they can't, they still get the enjoyment of living the rest of their life. Someone who is killed doesn't have that option.

For that matter, what about torture? Playing a game like Amnesia, or Fallout, you don't see the explicit acts, but you see the results and methods of the torture. And while rape is an awful act, and I'm not trying to devalue its impact, some of the methods that were used in both of those games are much worse, approaching the worst acts that I could possibly fathom. Yet those hardly garnered attention at all.

I will agree with the grey area point however. People have desires to have sex, and usually have it with it being acceptable, while killing is seen as almost always being wrong. I think the difference is that sex is something that is circumstantially unacceptable while killing is something that's circumstantially acceptable. I guess both that, and the fact that people have a desire to have sex makes it more difficult for people to instantly recognize it as wrong. Although I think that another large part of why it isn't addressed is how sex is a much more uncomfortable subject to people than killing. A rating for a movie will be boosted much more from sex than from killing.

EDIT:

ReiverCorrupter:
*snip

I agree with you on this. If anything I see the jokes as a reinforcement of just how unacceptable the acts are. I mean seriously, you don't see anyone make a fuss about how people who make dead baby jokes think it's acceptable to kill babies. It's a completely unacceptable topic, and the absurd levels of cruelty in it is what makes it funny.

blackrave:
Contrary to popular belief woman can rape man
BUT
all known techniques to do so are lethal to man
So it will be less about rape and more about killing

Besides that
Yeah, don't rape, just, don't, please!

Explain? Tying him down with viagra will kill him or it won't work? Or just fucking him with a strap-on ?

Falseprophet:

Top Hat:
Great video, but one thing I disagree with is the idea that we should be telling rapists not to rape rather than victims not to be victims. I don't mean it's the victim's fault, I just think that rapists can't be convinced otherwise by being told not to, whereas victims may be able to take measures against being raped.

Except that it works. Because a lot of rapists don't realize they're rapists.

Huh. I stand corrected. I was not aware that so many people didn't know what rape was...

Fair points, but I still disagree...

1) there's a difference between killing and MURDER. Murdering someone in cold blood gives the victim no chance to retaliate. See the Hitman series, where the whole point of the game is actual murder of people you never heard about, using quite distasteful methods.

2) I bet that if someone close to you died in a tragic way and you see the same action in a videogame, you'll have issues with that either.

3) And frankly, rape in general is a grey area IRL as well. If a woman wants to destroy a man, nothing easier than to seduce him and then blame him of rape. Or just 'change her mind' later or blame it on alcohol or something. No I'm not saying it's happening often, but let's not pretend this doesn't exist. And in this case, a man has no way to defend himself either unless he videotaped her agreement to have the intercourse.

So okay videogames may not be mature enough to tackle the subject... But when are they going to be?

mike1921:

blackrave:
Contrary to popular belief woman can rape man
BUT
all known techniques to do so are lethal to man
So it will be less about rape and more about killing

Besides that
Yeah, don't rape, just, don't, please!

Explain? Tying him down with viagra will kill him or it won't work? Or just fucking him with a strap-on ?

Uhhh no, women can rape a man wihtout lethality.

Didn't you read that story about the Russian woman who had a shop someone tried to rob her? Instead she karatekicked him to the head, chained him to a radiator, fed him viagra for 3 days while raping him to teach him a lesson. And being a nice sport she gave him cab-fare when she released him.

And before you start going 'niiiiiice' like a couple of south park figures: He was apparantly so pissed off that he pressed charges (despite the humiliation and probable prison term that came with it).

Sgt. Sykes:

3) And frankly, rape in general is a grey area IRL as well. If a woman wants to destroy a man, nothing easier than to seduce him and then blame him of rape. Or just 'change her mind' later or blame it on alcohol or something. No I'm not saying it's happening often, but let's not pretend this doesn't exist. And in this case, a man has no way to defend himself either unless he videotaped her agreement to have the intercourse.

To be fair, I'm sure that more damage would be done to someone by accusing them of murdering someone else. Sure, it's a little more difficult, but just the accusation can do permanent damage to their reputation

pluizig:
*stands up*

*starts slow clap*

Bravo, Jim. Bravo.

It really is something to see a politically-incorrect-on-purpose persona take such a hard stance for a good cause. Bravo.

EDIT: And, of course, thank god for you.

i will admit i was wary when i saw the video title. but he handled it very well.

Falseprophet:

dragongit:
I'd also like to point out, that while the discussion of rape and murder are discussed, the subject of Torture isn't brought up either, and is something that may give validity to the argument.

You see in many videogames the character can brutally eviscerate their enemies. Look at Kratos from God of War, how often he doesn't just simply and quickly kill enimies, he takes the time to slowly, and painfully murder them. Ripping off their heads from their sholders, cutting into their brains or yanking off limbs. Much like Rape, Torture takes pre meditation and conviction to accomplish, where as killing can be a reflect or a drive to survive.

Technically, though, your examples aren't torture in the usual sense. They're just extremely savage killing. All it really does is remove the ambiguity from the act--the character isn't killing because he has to, he's doing it because he likes it. It's just a glorified kill animation that says something about the protagonist's character, but nothing about torture itself.

A realistic and honest approach to torture would be, should I cause pain and suffering to this guy over prolonged periods, and thoroughly shame and dehumanize him by stripping him nude, passing an electric current through his testicles, forcing him to stand for 36 hours at a time, smashing his fingers with a hammer? If he might know where a bomb is hidden, does that justify it? What if I can't break him, but I do the above to his innocent wife or child? Is that justifiable? That would be a realistic approach to torture.

You dont think one could justify rape in the same way? this person knows where a Bomb is that could kill a thousand of innocent people. I know ill rape him or her until they tell me. I am sorry torture is a slow and deliberate act trying to dehumanize a human being and it always has a victim. In the worse cause the victim carries both physical and emotional scars for their entire life. Getting raped is horrible situation. Having all the bones in your legs crushed and parts of your body set on fire is terrible as well and it cannot be justified.

I am sorry but you are wrong the worst thing you can do to a person is to kill them. The prefrontal cortex stops functioning and you cease to exist. To say that it doesnt matter because you cannot care is foolish. The human body and brain are quite resilient given enough time one can recover from most injuries. When you are killed the right to try to rebuild your life is taken away from you.

People saying that killing is a easy thing to do because it can be justified have never been in a situation where they had to justify it. When i was over in Afghanistan i had to do some things that i could never hope to be forgiven for. When you inspect a 12-14 year old kid that had a suicide vest on and was trying to blow themselves up and you. Then you realize that it was your bullet that killed him and all you see is the face of some poor kid that never had a chance in life and was indoctrinated from a very young age and didnt even understand the full consequences of what he was doing.

Murder cannot be justified. You never forget the faces.

Sgt. Sykes:

So okay videogames may not be mature enough to tackle the subject... But when are they going to be?

Videogames have been both mature (balance of power, hidden agenda, alter ego, planescape torment, grim fandango, photopia) and immature (carmaggadon, leisuire suit larry, doax volleybal, duke nukem) for as long as they've existed. It's all about creative direction and the people behind it.

So 'videogames' are both mature enough and not mature enough, like some kind of schrodinger's videogame.

Sometimes the immature can be enjoyable.

I'd rather have someone play rape videogames, than have that same person not have that outlet. Fantasy is fantasy.

The comparison between murder and rape is asynchronous; better to compare torture to rape. The reason why rape is given such special status by many is that it's a much more emotional issue. Mechanically speaking, it's worse to kill someone than rape them. But emotionally the second is much worse.

dunam:

mike1921:

blackrave:
Contrary to popular belief woman can rape man
BUT
all known techniques to do so are lethal to man
So it will be less about rape and more about killing

Besides that
Yeah, don't rape, just, don't, please!

Explain? Tying him down with viagra will kill him or it won't work? Or just fucking him with a strap-on ?

Uhhh no, women can rape a man wihtout lethality.

Didn't you read that story about the Russian woman who had a shop someone tried to rob her? Instead she karatekicked him to the head, chained him to a radiator, fed him viagra for 3 days while raping him to teach him a lesson. And being a nice sport she gave him cab-fare when she released him.

And before you start going 'niiiiiice' like a couple of south park figures: He was apparantly so pissed off that he pressed charges (despite the humiliation and probable prison term that came with it).

On the contrary, in reality, people find rape as punishment for men rather acceptable, even a "guilty pleasure" among western nations. Prison rape occurs, but no one cares because they're criminals (no matter how small their crime might have been), even chuckle about "bubba's new girlfriend" whenever someone is convicted of something like theft.

I wouldn't have a big issue about a lot of these arguments if there weren't such big exceptions to how people react to spesific situations like that.

The Almighty Aardvark:

Sgt. Sykes:

3) And frankly, rape in general is a grey area IRL as well. If a woman wants to destroy a man, nothing easier than to seduce him and then blame him of rape. Or just 'change her mind' later or blame it on alcohol or something. No I'm not saying it's happening often, but let's not pretend this doesn't exist. And in this case, a man has no way to defend himself either unless he videotaped her agreement to have the intercourse.

To be fair, I'm sure that more damage would be done to someone by accusing them of murdering someone else. Sure, it's a little more difficult, but just the accusation can do permanent damage to their reputation

It's a crime to falsely accuse someone of murder. There is no punishment for women falsely accusing men of rape or molestation. The accusation alone is enough to end a person's career and permanently ruin their reputation even when innocent. It's happened to male teachers, which is why there's a shortage of them today, and there's the Duke rape case, and most recently a former student was released from jail when his accuser admitted on tape that she wasn't raped. It's a relatively common tactic in custody and alimony cases during divorce too, but it's thankfully becomming less common.

agree with everything

I dont think chapelle meant what he said to be taken like that though.

I think he meant if you dress like a slut be expected that people will assume you are a slut

nobody should be raped. even if they dress provocatively that does not give you the right to rape them

dressing provocatively people will assume you are trying to provoke a sexual response to your aesthetic appearance, albeit definately not a rapey response because even if someone walks round with a sign saying someone have sex with me that doesn't mean you can do it without their consent.

Yes Nurb, well said.

Nurb:
So killing in video games is OK so long as it's justifiable in the fiction, such as being the hero and defending yourself in a war game?

And "We all know murder is wrong and are secure in the knowledge we won't shoot someone"? I don't like rape, I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what rape is and we are all secure in the knowledge we know "no means no" and have no inention of drugging a woman (or a man if you swing that way)

What about being the bad guy or the villain? You really can't rationalize walking down the street in GTA games and just blowing the brains out of some innocent person, or driving down the sidewalk, slaughtering dozens before killing off hundreds of police officers trying to stop your rampage. That technically would be unacceptable by this particular argument and GTA 5 would have to be stopped. There are people that like playing an evil son of a bitch in the KOTOR games and MMO, are they bad people for choosing the bad options to execute and extort innocents?

In the end, people need to stop being outraged over the fiction they personally don't like while then playng out horrible acts in the fiction they do like because that's all it is: Fiction. It's not real, it's all the same virtual death, murder, rape, torture, etc, only our opinions on the fictional and illegal acts in the entertainment are different (which is why so many games have the 'moral choice' system btw)

So yes, it is hypocritical when someone complains about "killable children" mods in Fallout 3 and Skyrim to add realism is hypocritical when you can beat the homeless man dying of thirst outside towns to death with a pipe in Fallout 3 and don't say a word about how horrible that act is.

We're trying to apply real world morals, logic, thinking and laws to things that don't exist, which is insane to begin with and it only ends up giving a mob of people the idea they can start dictating what fictional things people can and can't create, which is already happening. I don't like rape either, but I ignore it if it isn't reality because I can, such as not going near those hentai rape games. All the complaints about those games did was advertize for them.

We need a "National Day of No Outrage". I'm starting to shut off anything that has anyone being offended about anything the last year or so.

I think the difference is that what people enjoy about games like GTA is the gameplay mechanics, the challenge, the ridiculous way they ragdoll all over the place, and unlike a rape game, they aren't getting a thrill out of the actual acts. Obviously I can't speak for everyone.

ReiverCorrupter:

Varya:
Thank you! I've been driven mad by people claming they don't see harm in rape-jokes when murder-jokes are OK. What's been making me livid is the fact that I haven't been able to express why they are not only wrong, but the implications of making rape-jokes OK are kinda scary. So thank you Jim, and thank God for you!

Well... he was talking about rape in video games, not jokes. I hate to break it to you, but the whole point of murder, rape, dead-baby, racist, etc. jokes is that they aren't okay. What people find funny about them is their very offensiveness itself: they are enjoyable because they are taboo. So... I don't really see what you're getting at. I don't think anyone actually holds that they are socially acceptable. Are you saying that people should be punished if they make these jokes in public? Pretty sure you can contact your HR department at wherever you work and get people in trouble for making any sort of the above mentioned offensive jokes.

I doubt any one type of offensive joke is more damaging to society than any others. If people are telling rape jokes in a fraternity and the members commit rape, this is probably due to the nature of the fraternity, of which the rape jokes are merely one small symptom. The only time a joke can actually reinforce a behavior is when it results from an already predominant social structure that reinforces that behavior. Attacking the jokes is a waste of time, they are merely a symptom of the disease. All you'll end up doing is eroding freedom of speech.

If you're saying that people should be banned from online services for making these types of jokes, then sure, the companies can ban whomever they want for whatever reason they want. Free speech isn't guaranteed on Xbox live. That shit's up to M$. Hell, they can ban you for getting into political discussions if they wanted to. They could ban you for having "Obama/Romney 2012" in your profile. In order to play on these services they have you sign a ridiculous license agreement that has you give up all of your rights. Of course, it works both ways. You can't really demand jack squat from these companies. If they thought that banning certain types of jokes would hurt their sales they probably wouldn't do it. It's up to them.

Listen, I'm not interesting in debating this really, but I never said annythiung about what's allowed, I believe in free speach, I'm talking about ME and I will never think rape jokes are OK (and even this is sayinga bit too much, I've laughed and been okay with jokes concernig rape, but there are very, very few and there is a thin line there that I cannot express excatly) but killing jokes are. Yes, there are out of taste jokes there too, but generally speaking I hvae no problem with murder/torture/grevious bodillyharm-jokes. Think about it, have you ever laughed at a Darwin Award? can you even imagine a similar rape-situation? No, because even real-life deaths can be funny, but rape can't.
As for banning, I really don't wan't to get in to that debate. I would never voulontarily become a moderator, but in geeneral,m if you make rape-jokes or even worse, threats, serious or not on the internet, I will personally concider you an asshole, but with deat/killing jargon I tend to give more leeway, but your still probably an asshole.

5ilver:
I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

*Facepalm* Going to the dentist may be unpleasant, but it's also VOLUNTARY. Rape is about depriving another human being of their free will and humanity. There's nothing debasing about getting your teeth cleaned.

Jzolr0708:
I consider Rape, along with the murder of Children

Clearly you never played Fallout 3 and had to go through Little Lamplight.

Fuck those little bastards

OT: Mostly excellent video, except for bringing up the whole "clothes" debate. Dave Chapelle's skit had nothing to do with rape, it was to do with flirting and picking up in bars. And who says people don't "ask for" murder? If you piss someone with a gun off, yeah, I'd say you're asking for it. Actually, it's a lot easier to "ask for" murder than for rape. And by "a lot" I mean "actually possible."

ex275w:
At the risk of sounding like an ignorant moron I pose my thoughts on the subject:

Rape in my eyes is equally heinous as murder and torture.

What I've never gotten is the clothes argument. Of course you shouldn't tell a victim something to the effect of: "You silly, wearing tight jeans is what got you raped." But wearing certain kinds of clothes can titillate rapists. A friend of mine got catcalled in public because she was wearing shorts and the whole disgusting debacle may have been avoided if she was wearing baggy pants. This is not to say that wearing a Burka completely prevents rape, but dressing conservatively might help you avoid unwanted attention, still I am not one to dictate how women dress. (This is ignoring rape cases were the perpetrator and the victim know each others or were the victims were children)

Of course you can flame me away, have fun!

Meh. That isn't unreasonable. The problem is that people fail to distinguish between murder and killing. Games like Call of Duty involve killing in war, which is completely different from murdering some innocent person. I'd liken rape games to school shooter games. Both are pretty equally repugnant in their own way.

As far as the clothing thing goes, I think people automatically identify a statement like, "what they hell was she expecting, walking around dressed like that in that neighborhood alone at night?" with "she was dressed like a whore, so she clearly deserved it." The first is not equivalent to the second. You can point out that a victim of a crime was doing something stupid so that hopefully people won't make the same mistake, which is completely different from blaming the victim for what the criminal did to them. The criminal was the one who committed the heinous act, and all of the onus falls upon them.

But in the case of rape, I would say it has very little to do with clothing, and more to do with a lack of awareness of one's surroundings, and a dangerous sense of comfort in situations where one should be wary. I'm willing to bet just as much rape happens when some woman dressed in sweatpants decides to take out her trash in the middle of the night as happens to drunken women wandering home from a club. Spreading awareness helps to prevent this. This is especially true when you consider the campaign to warn people about keeping an eye on their drinks to avoid date-rape drugs. Many of these women probably thought they were being safe by traveling by taxi, some of them might have even had mace.

The victim's actions should be criticized because stupidity/ignorance shouldn't be ignored or encouraged. It's essentially the same thing as telling someone they were stupid for leaving their Mercedes unlocked in a bad neighborhood overnight: the criminal is the one who committed the wrongdoing; the person who left it unlocked is only guilty of being stupid. Same goes for not covering up the pad when you enter your pin #, or not chopping up credit cards.

People don't like these arguments because they find them offensive, and I'm sympathetic. The victim has usually been through enough, and it doesn't help to criticize them: they've almost assuredly learned their lesson. But when the police chief warns women not to repeat that person's mistake, he is hardly legitimizing rape. I guess someone might take that to be 'mansplaining', but it's really just common sense, and sometimes people need to be given a good fright to make them wake up. Sure, no one in their right mind would do such a thing, but the victims are often drunk. Putting a bit of fear into them might influence them take more precautions before they go out, like bringing a tazer, or using a buddy-system.

Sure, it's condescending to tell women what to do, but sometimes people need to be condescended to and scared. And no, it's not a gender thing. The same applies to men in various other circumstances. A man should be equally criticized for getting mugged after wandering around drunk in a bad neighborhood.

On the subject of rape jokes. Here are a few good ones:

Louis CK rape woman joke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU3IM5pWTcc
Louis CK rape man joke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loOTAw5GyI8
David Chapelle rape man joke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLWlBgj0uOc
Ricky Gervais rape woman joke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UE2tjRkaCw

(advisable not to watch if you wouldn't enjoy)

So, what about non-lethal, non-sexual physical (and emotional assaults)? Those also leave the survivor to deal with a lifetime of physical and emotional scars.

When I was in high school, bullying was extremely common. In fact, I'd say that nearly every boy was subject to it at one time. Yet it was dismissed by the culture and authorities as "boys will be boys". Males were basically considered acceptable targets for brutality in a way which females weren't. If someone beat up (or raped) a girl, they would be considered a monster and punished harshly. But boys were fair game. Especially when it came to rape, which is generally considered even more shameful, and more of a "blame the victim" situation when it happens to males.

Also Jim, it is certainly physically possible for a woman to rape a man. Or do you consider forcible anal penetration or oral sex not rape when it is not performed with a penis?

I think a lot of the gender and "sexual" issues around this area just muddy the waters. I have yet to understand why non-sexual violence against men is so easily brushed aside by society. After all, violence is violence, right? It's not necessarily the case that rape is always more traumatic than other forms of violence. Some people survive rapes relatively emotionally intact, while others may suffer from non-rape violence that basically destroys their lives.

Putting rape in its own special, exceptional, category seems like a way of avoiding the issues around violence and the terrible ways humans treat each other. You even mention a bit of torture being OK to you. I can't understand what would make torture categorically more acceptable than rape. Often the two are intertwined.

That was about as good of an attempt at the subject as you're likely to find on the Internet.

There are different levels of portrayal. In Populous, for example, the little people die in wars, earthquakes and volcanoes. The exact nature of the deaths and of your godly responsibility in them is not always clear. They also reproduce in little huts. Again, the exact nature of the congress that produces the new people is unclear. Yes, I realise that's a massive, tenuous stretch.

In CoD, the nature of every death is very clear, but in the multiplayer game, no one really dies. They respawn, and their corpse disappears. The depiction of a violent death is there but it is typically fleeting and distant, as opposed to the lingering slo-mos of Sniper Elite.

It's nuanced, and the simple word "murder" is not entirely helpful in resolving questions about the subject. On the other hand, I've never encountered a game in which rape was presented ambiguously. What is presented is always clearly something undesirable, which is why games in which it is an objective are so abhorrent.

Then again, I've always struggled with games like Hitman which present ostensibly abhorrent objectives and then crowbar a justification onto them via a crude narrative.

I've lost my train of thought and am rambling now. I should stop.

Varya:

ReiverCorrupter:
snip

Listen, I'm not interesting in debating this really, but I never said annythiung about what's allowed, I believe in free speach, I'm talking about ME and I will never think rape jokes are OK (and even this is sayinga bit too much, I've laughed and been okay with jokes concernig rape, but there are very, very few and there is a thin line there that I cannot express excatly) but killing jokes are. Yes, there are out of taste jokes there too, but generally speaking I hvae no problem with murder/torture/grevious bodillyharm-jokes. Think about it, have you ever laughed at a Darwin Award? can you even imagine a similar rape-situation? No, because even real-life deaths can be funny, but rape can't.

I wasn't really trying to debate you so much as I was confused about what you were saying and was asking you to clarify your position, which you just did. I can't say I disagree. You have every right to find rape jokes offensive. But one should keep in mind that different people probably have different lines that they wouldn't cross. Pro-lifers probably feel the same way about dead-baby jokes.

I'll agree that that I can't really think of a specific scenario where a person was actually raped that would be funny, but that's quite a bit different from abstract jokes. Actually, I lied, I find the idea of Jerry Sandusky getting raped in prison to be freaking hilarious. So perhaps that is a counterexample.

disappointed:

In CoD, the nature of every death is very clear, but in the multiplayer game, no one really dies. They respawn, and their corpse disappears. The depiction of a violent death is there but it is typically fleeting and distant, as opposed to the lingering slo-mos of Sniper Elite.

And then there's players teabagging, which is clearly some form of rape. But that's not really real either. They respawn and their corpse disappears. It is typically fleeting and distant.

Jimothy Sterling:

My point wasn't to say that in-game killing is ALWAYS justified, more to say that, unlike rape, it at least CAN be justified within the fiction. I was simply drawing a distinction between the two concepts rather than presenting that first point as an absolute.

Actually, rape can be justified in a number of situations.

-There was battle tactic occasionally used in real medieval battles wherein the invading force would covertly capture the enemy's queen and publicly rape her outside the city walls to demoralize the enemy. Sometimes this worked so well that the city surrendered. Thus, as a result of rape, thousands of lives were saved.

-Sometimes rape is an effective means of torture which can be good under the "ticking time bomb" scenario. The perpetrator might be terrified of rape but fairly resistant to other forms of torture. Methinks a single rape is justified if it prevents a packed office building from exploding.

-Within fiction there are also several somewhat convoluted ways in which rape is justified. For example, in You Can't Escape From the Heroine, a game from the same company that made Rapelay that no one raised an eyebrow at because it's a game about women raping men as opposed to Rapelay's men raping women, the women rape the dark lord as a magical ritual to seal his power. Yeah, it's a bit silly, but it nevertheless makes rape into a moral action.

Nevertheless, it makes no sense for us to support 100% and fight tooth-and-nail against anyone who is against unjustified, immoral hyperviolence against innocents and yet fully condemn unjustified, immoral rape against an innocent. Why is driving along a sidewalk and murdering 40 innocents who won't fight back perfectly fine but one instance of unwanted penetration horrible and unpardonable. By allowing this you're saying that rape is much, much worse than unprovoked, violent mass murder against innocents. That's a pretty fucked-up ethical standard.

Also, your point about rape in media screwing with victims of rape and that being a reason to not have rape in games is illogical. I have a little sister who is very afraid of violence, even in media. How does she cope? She just doesn't watch or play anything with nasty violence in it. Rape victims who are uncomfortable with rape (as not all are, I know because I am one) should simply avoid such media which is pretty easy to identify. One could even make the same argument as you on this subject in regard to victims of significant bodily injury who might react poorly to seeing someone get disemboweled. That might even trigger flashbacks of the time that happened to them. So, while murder victims can't get screwed up by images of murder victims of violence can get screwed up by images of murder.

The biggest problem of trying to not have virtual rape is that it increases real rape. This can be clearly seen through the well-known effect that countries with freer porn laws and access to porn have lower rape rates. This effect is almost certainly due to the cathartic release one gets from porn and lacking this mechanism an individual has a higher risk of committing rape because of their pent-up sexual energy. This is similar to the catharsis produced by playing violent videogames that has arguably been one of the factors contributing to the decreasing violent crime rate we have nowadays. Therefore if we allow potential rapist to express their rape fantasies in a non-destructive way then we have more potential rapists who don't become actual rapists. I mean, what else are you going to do to realistically and effectively prevent rape, tell people not to rape? Yeah, that will work really well.

One direct question for you Jim. You said that you support the creative freedom of people to make games about rape but do you support rape games being banned from the market?

Chairman Miaow:

Nurb:
So killing in video games is OK so long as it's justifiable in the fiction, such as being the hero and defending yourself in a war game?

And "We all know murder is wrong and are secure in the knowledge we won't shoot someone"? I don't like rape, I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what rape is and we are all secure in the knowledge we know "no means no" and have no inention of drugging a woman (or a man if you swing that way)

What about being the bad guy or the villain? You really can't rationalize walking down the street in GTA games and just blowing the brains out of some innocent person, or driving down the sidewalk, slaughtering dozens before killing off hundreds of police officers trying to stop your rampage. That technically would be unacceptable by this particular argument and GTA 5 would have to be stopped. There are people that like playing an evil son of a bitch in the KOTOR games and MMO, are they bad people for choosing the bad options to execute and extort innocents?

In the end, people need to stop being outraged over the fiction they personally don't like while then playng out horrible acts in the fiction they do like because that's all it is: Fiction. It's not real, it's all the same virtual death, murder, rape, torture, etc, only our opinions on the fictional and illegal acts in the entertainment are different (which is why so many games have the 'moral choice' system btw)

So yes, it is hypocritical when someone complains about "killable children" mods in Fallout 3 and Skyrim to add realism is hypocritical when you can beat the homeless man dying of thirst outside towns to death with a pipe in Fallout 3 and don't say a word about how horrible that act is.

We're trying to apply real world morals, logic, thinking and laws to things that don't exist, which is insane to begin with and it only ends up giving a mob of people the idea they can start dictating what fictional things people can and can't create, which is already happening. I don't like rape either, but I ignore it if it isn't reality because I can, such as not going near those hentai rape games. All the complaints about those games did was advertize for them.

We need a "National Day of No Outrage". I'm starting to shut off anything that has anyone being offended about anything the last year or so.

I think the difference is that what people enjoy about games like GTA is the gameplay mechanics, the challenge, the ridiculous way they ragdoll all over the place, and unlike a rape game, they aren't getting a thrill out of the actual acts. Obviously I can't speak for everyone.

If that were true, then the developers didn't need to waste time and money using story to set the player up as an amoral criminal character or giving them a background at all. It's the fantasy of being a bad person who doesn't take shit from anyone, which makes those games successfull and there's nothing wrong with enjoying the fantasy of being a bad person because you know the difference between fantasy and reality.

Come on, man. Rape isn't something women are incapable of doing - they do it a lot, it's hugely underreported, ignored when it is reported, or not registered when it is reported (many definitions, such as the only recently altered FBI one, it's literally impossible for a woman to rape someone by virtue of her gender alone). They rape other women, they rape men, they rape kids... women are just as likely to be pedophiles as men, and just as likely to abuse children, but that's not something that's in the public's mind - which makes them much more dangerous than male absuers since they have a far easier time getting away with it.

Also, the chance of being raped isn't "terribly high". The chance of suffering either rape *or* sexual assault, in the US, is 0.07%. You're 20-30 times more likely to be exposed to any other violent crime, AND - incidentally, since we're on the topic of gender - the chance of being exposed to those crimtes is higher for men.

Wether calling a 0.07% chance to experience rape/sexual assault 'terribly high' is up to the speaker, I guess, but relative to experiencing any other violent crime it is very, very low. You're ~5 times more likely to experience the highest levels of serious assault than you are to experience either rape or sexual assault combined.

To touch upon the "most men don't fear getting raped when they're alone with a woman" - maybe not (though I've known men that have, but whatever, let's pretend that's the case). But they have a many, many, many times better reason to fear any kind of violence than women do to fear just rape, and you don't see guys freaking out about being alone in a room with another guy. Just because somebody's male doesn't instantly make them a violent offender... we remember that when we're talking about other kinds of violence, but for some reason it's considered oddly socially acceptable to say that a woman has reason to "fear getting raped" whenever they're alone with a man, even though there fucking isn't any reason to fear that.

"Most women would be right to worry about [rape], because it happens to women a lot". No it doesn't. It happens very rarely. It is a very rare crime. You are five times more likely to be beaten to within an inch of your life tomorrow than you'd be to get rape if you were a woman. Do you go around terrified of that happening to you at any given moment?

If you're gonna talk about this, at least bother to validate the claims you make, and don't just regurgitate this stupid "rape culture" dogma.

And I'm pretty sure this narrative that rape is some kind of insane, mind-blowing experience unlike any other thing that you could experience or understand only make the experience worse for those who do actually get raped. If you're conditioned your whole life by your entire culture to consider rape the most horrible thing that could ever happen to you, it just might be. In places where rape happens all the time people deal with it just fine. It's not fun, but neither is being subjected to any other form of violence; many forms of which leave far greater physical damage than rape by itself is capable of, and leave equally horrible, or more horrible, scars.

Honestly, this elevation of rape as like the greatest offense that can be committed is just symptomatic of the priorities of anyone who'd make that statement. Getting raped is worse than being subjected to what the law considers the most violent form of physical assault that doesn't result in your death? Anyone who genuinely thinks that is out of their minds, and I'd be happy to let them rape me if they'd let me destroy their body physically afterwards. I'm sure I'd get over it before they did. Heck, with the justification that rape is worse than murder because if you're dead you can't relive the experience or be traumatized by it... seriously? Because the people who get murdered don't have others who care about them, right? Who could suffer on their behalf after their death? Who can get traumatized by the experience, and carry it with them their whole lives? Whatever, buddy.

And isn't that basically implying that the feeling of rape victims are more important than the lives of murder victims? Considering the pretty bizzare "lol death ain't so bad" diatribe, I wouldn't be surprised if that's actually what motivates such thinking.

Anyway... rape fantasies are no different from murder fantasies: People can distinguish fantasy from reality in both cases, you're just pretending that isn't the case because it's convenient for your argument.

Also, people blame murder victims all the time, for being stupid enough to get themselves murdered.

Also, there's an incessant stream of "don't rape" commands aimed at men (and men only, mind you). Our society doesn't consider rape a horrible crime because we think it's an okay thing to do either.

Also... ah, what's the point. This entire episode was just weird. Huge amounts of time is spent literally saying that "murder ain't so bad, so it's okay to do it in video games"... fucking what? Murdering people in vidoe games is okay... because they're vidoe games! Not because murder is okay! I'm almost starting to believe that the standard argument in defence of violence in games - that we all (evidently supposedly) realize it's fantasy - maybe isn't one we'd see out of Jim here...

Was also really weird that he mentions game of thrones, then right in the next breath says that rape is a deeply personal crime that shows a desire to cause pain or whatever the exact words were (then said that torturing people, which is by definition done to cause pain, is worse than rape), even though GoT depicts rape as a very impersonal crime just as often as the other way around. At least as much as it does with the murdering.

Rape isn't inherently more EVIL than murder, and it's definitely LESS evil than torture (since rape isn't inherently motivated by a desire to cause pain). The reason it's on every "really bad"-bad guy's resume is not because "we know on some level it's some dark true evil thing"... jesus christ, man? Are you religious now?

It's on there because writers have realized that - because we see murder, and torture, everywhere on TV, and in movies, and on games, and in comics, etc, all the time - we're desensitized to it. We no longer empathize with the victims of violent crimes that are far worse than rape, because we see those crimes all the time played out in front of us - frequently glorified, at that. We very rarely see rape, and it's almost never glorified, so it hits us harder when we see a bad guy rape someone. We see bad guys killing people left and right all the time... but we also see heroes killing people left and right all the time. Heck, we even see them torture people all the time. So we don't instantly and intuitively connect murder/torture with someone being a horrible human being. But we never see the hero rape someone, so the connection is much more emotional when we see a bad guy doing it.

There's also tons of other shit like the impression that osmeone raping is doing so because they can't get it some other way, all our still deep cultural taboos surrounding sex, blah blah blah - you get the idea. Torture is much more inherently evil than rape, but it doesn't have the same intuitive impact that rape does. That's why people freaking have their bad guys do it, because they know how ot tell a story, and part of telling that story is making people hate the bad guy, and making them rape someone is an effective way of doing that.

Anyway... I spent way too long on this rant and nobody's going to care anyway, but I guess I just felt compelled to do so. Would be nice if people stopped with all the hyperbole whenever they talked about rape, or at least quit it with the outright lies, but whatever.

For the record, I think rape/whatever games are stupid, since that fantasy doesn't appeal to me at all, just like something like twilight doesn't appeal to me at all. Because it is just a fantasy. Maybe you should remember that the next time you make very creepy decidedly non-fantasy justifications for non-fantasy murder...

I loved the quick reference to Gregor Clegane when you talked about horrible unlikable rapists in stories. I think he's one of the only characters in ASOIAF that no one seems to like.

And now to reiterate a point in the video Jim talked about but I feel needs to be repeated.

Don't rape. Just don't do it. It's not cool, bro. Don't rape people. DO NOT RAPE. Okay?

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