Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

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Grahav:
Also, there is a part of our brain that just enjoys violence. At the same time we have a conscience. Angel and devil on the shoulders.

What is a human? A huge mess of contradictions.

Release of endorphins, you see. We're all just twisted enough to get excited about strangest things.

mike1921:
We don't see genocide as a grey area because you could falsely accuse someone of it.

Bad wording on my part. What I meant is that it's no LESS grey area than killing.

Still, while I know how this is going to sound, there IS some grey area between 100% rape and 100% consensual intercourse. All that's needed is a bit of roughness or some alcohol (no, not my experience) and the line is blurred. On the other hand, a person is either dead or not so actually there's no grey area there. Sure, there are injuries, but which game tackles on injuries besides health percentage?

I really dislike the notion that murder is okay just because we see a lot of it in media and fiction. That's just stupid. One can perfectly go on without hearing about any killing or other disasters.

But I'd like to see a game LA Noire-style where the player investigates some rapes and can stop them from happening. Etc.

"Thou Shalt Not Kill" comes from a religion where women were property and attacks on women were treated as property crime. Rape was not treated with as much severity because the primary victims were women and women weren't treated as people.

It's interesting to see that phrase used here.

Then again, also keep in mind that the commandments given including honouring your parents, making graven images, and worshipping other gods. The priorities here might be a little off here.

What am I getting at? Well, the divide on whether rape or murder is worse is pretty big. A lot of people do think murder is worse. I don't. Nor do I think it trivialises murder.

Also, I do agree that we have to look at how something might be understood. I think a lot of these controversies can be summed up by "I don't get it." This is especially true on sites where the userbase is is strongly one group. Gamers tend to be male. As rape is not seen as a men's issue, men don't think about it much. Same goes with sexism in general.

DVS BSTrD:
You don't rape in self-defense.

Maybe YOU don't.

Suicidejim:

DVS BSTrD:
You don't rape in self-defense.

So that's why I got kicked out of that self-defence class . . .

That's a pretty fuckin' inappropriate joke, mate. And I just made a joke about kicking a dead cat into a ditch this morning on the phone (after having kicked a dead cat into a ditch).

Good video, I kind of sort of agree with Jim here more or less completely. He's, you know, correct.

Grahav:

Also, there is a part of our brain that just enjoys violence. At the same time we have a conscience. Angel and devil on the shoulders.

What is a human? A huge mess of contradictions.

Freudian.

The Super ego, ego and id. I think you're taking the idea a little bit too far.

this is all very true, in fact when it comes to morals, I don't ever promise I will never kill someone, I won't kill someone unless I think there's no other option, but I never wish to foll myself into thinking there will never be a situation where I might have to take another persons life. It's an unlikely situation and either me or someone important to me is in serious danger, but it could happen.
Rape on the other hand, I can promise I'll never do, because there's no situation where it can be justified, no situation where I can claim I'm doing more good than harm.
Now the actual concept of rape could be addressed, but it must be in a proper way, as an example it shouldn't be an option, they don't let you kill kids in Skyrim, they don't let you be racist in fallout 3 (to other people not to other ghouls), and you can't murder random civilians in the citadel in Mass effect 2. There are reasons for this, these actions weren't part of the experience. Now to be chasing a Rapist is fine because the game is likely insisting your supposed to despise the Rapist, heck I think in some of the silent hill games your character might have raped someone, but you never do it in game, because silent hill is tormenting you for it.

My point is Rape is not the same is murder, and I personally find it disgusting, any game that was designed for you to rape someone is a bad game and this I would complain about.

DiMono:
If I'm playing a game and another character actually rapes me, it means the other player has to actively continue doing things to me, and I have to sit there and watch it happen, or else try to resist.

i may be a bad person for this, but i just pictured a fellow player walking up to you, and in the family guy character herberts voice say: "hey there young fella, you want a cold popsicle to cool you down? the one who swallows the most tylenol pm's wins!" and your character shouts "i need an adult! i need an adult!"

Loethlin:

Grahav:
Also, there is a part of our brain that just enjoys violence. At the same time we have a conscience. Angel and devil on the shoulders.

What is a human? A huge mess of contradictions.

Release of endorphins, you see. We're all just twisted enough to get excited about strangest things.

mad825:

Freudian.

The Super ego, ego and id. I think you're taking the idea a little bit too far.

Yep, those naughty ids and their endorfines of crazy...

Combine Rustler:

Suicidejim:

DVS BSTrD:
You don't rape in self-defense.

So that's why I got kicked out of that self-defence class . . .

That's a pretty fuckin' inappropriate joke, mate. And I just made a joke about kicking a dead cat into a ditch this morning on the phone (after having kicked a dead cat into a ditch).

Which seems far more disrespectful to me, since it had a real-life basis. But fair enough. To be honest, I'm mildly surprised that it went unchallenged for 9 pages.

I was actually a bit afraid to watch this video but I'm glad it tastefully coincides with The R-Word article on here as well. This has all needed to be said and I'm glad the Escapist (and Jim of course) have decided to do so.

Holy shit, I never expected Jim to do so damn well on such a sensitive subject. I mean, I love Jimquisition, but Jim's usual persona wouldn't be appropriate for this.

So, porn is legal but rape in the gaming industry isn't?

So what if someone is selling a product you personally don't like? Are you trying to impose your beliefs on others?

Besides, the thing is that murder can be justified. You're killing a bad person, and if you don't, you'll get killed. The military is allowed to kill (some) people, but we don't have a branch for raping people. Raping innocent people is only a little worse than killing innocent people. There is no situation in which raping is more morally justifiable than killing. At least killing someone doesn't scar them for life. Also, there's intent. Most people who want to commit rape have a bad intent, and you don't even get any material gains, but killing can be more of a socioeconomic decision (even if it's a bad one).

mad825:

CardinalPiggles:

mad825:

And yet if someone murdered you. People who were close to you would be traumatised for the rest of their life.

And yet if someone did murder me, my family and friends wouldn't have felt victimised and they wouldn't have had to worry about STD's and or pregnancy either. Murder is the lesser of two evils.

STD's (If not viral) and pregnancy isn't really too bad and would come under psychological trauma. Modern medicine knows a thing or two around this.

None of these acts should be committed in the first place and in fact over sympathising for rape may just seem a little gender bias and perhaps an over reaction? Granted, it's by far from pleasant but at least you can seek redemption ("justice")? You won't be defeated by an immoral act? You still can grow, change and be happy. There is a way back unlike death.

Death is a binary state and know one knows life beyond death. Isn't that what all animals, all humans fear the most? isn't our ultimate duty to survive no matter the odds?

I think humans are past the point of being totally ruled by our animal instincts by now.

Just now thinking about it, maybe it comes down to how optimistic you are. See I'm a pessimist, I give up way too easily, and therefore see death as a way out. An optimist however would see death as a point of missed opportunity, a point of no return. So death would be worse for an optimist.

Or maybe I'm just spouting bullshit and need to go to sleep, heh.

All of you rape apologists confuse me. Yes society glorifies violence to some degree, but WHY would you possibly want to make rape just as popular? What do we gain from having rape commonplace as killing people in video games?

I guess I shouldn't expect anything special from a forum of mostly 20ish and under males to be honest. I think a few people here are incapable of imagining the mindset of the victim. If your reasoning is essentially "well if your dead your dead, but rape victims still get to live herp derp" it just shows you how seriously people are actually taking the subject.

good video Jim

I'm flabbergasted. This was actually done in a way that wasn't completely offensive. There's also no flame war to be seen in such a long topic. (Then again what kind of person would defend rape of all things?)

Grahav:
Yep, those naughty ids and their endorfines of crazy...

I'm a Jungian and I resent that.
SCIENCE says it releases endorphins, not Freud. :)

He stated the case very well, my respect for Mr. Sterling has gone up.

Jim pretty much nailed it. I'm surprised that this is even a thing; as nasty as killing is, it's well-recognised that there are justifiable reasons to do it. You can kill in self-defence, you can kill to hasten a slower and more painful death, you can kill to protect others, you can kill for the sake of your country... somehow "rape" does not work in any of those sentences.

Sure, killing in video games can often be distasteful, even crass and cheap, but it's typically being done for one of these justifiable reasons (with obvious exceptions like GTA). There is no justifiable rape, no matter how hard a bad webcomic may try to convince you.

It's kind of surreal seeing this many people just casually accept violence and killing as are standard for what's okay to show in a video game, as long as you can justify that it's more tasteful then spreading someones brain matter across the wall it's a okay. I'm completely okay with violent games but I can't be the only one to find it a little weird at how much of a non issue it is?

First of all women can rape men and other women, men can get erect without wanting to especially if you manually stimulate it enough. Also there's viagra. As for women, well if you point a gun to someone and demand they give you oral that would be rape wouldn't you say (and it can be performed by either gender)

Ok now when talking about murder don't talk about war, most people put war in the non-murder box.

If you think Chapelle was justifying rape you really didn't get the joke. Calling a woman whore is not on any level saying 'you deserve to be raped', it means prostitute.

Hell he did a whole routine on male victims of rape and the shit they have to put up with.

5ilver:
I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

Why would you need to heal your self after you died you are in a better place or you are gone. Either way you don't need healing and don't have to live with the consequences of dying. In heaven you aren't going to cry in a corner about dying. If there is nothing after death then you can't feel anything so you don't need to be healed. I don't quite see your logic.

lord.jeff:
It's kind of surreal seeing this many people just casually accept violence and killing as are standard for what's okay to show in a video game, as long as you can justify that it's more tasteful then spreading someones brain matter across the wall it's a okay. I'm completely okay with violent games but I can't be the only one to find it a little weird at how much of a non issue it is?

Why should killing be an issue in games? It has been easily portrayed in other mediums with no problem. Sure rape has but there has never been a move or book about rape(unless it is to halp a victim). Now there have been plenty of movies with killing. Some of them way more grotesque than you will see in video games(ala Saw).

Jim, this is quite possibly your best video so far. I'm not sure if you're better off ditching the overt humor wholesale, but at least on serious issues, it's good to know you're up to the task.

A lot of fuzzy logic in this video. At the end of the day we are a society that glorifies violence and abhors sexuality, that is the only reason people don't give two poops about all the violence, not just killing, all the beatings, shooting, torture, etc. that happens in video games and other media yet we get very puritanical about ANY kind of sex, not just rape. In fact most people's repulsion has less to do with how bad rape is and more to do with our discomfort with sexuality.

At the end you say you wouldn't want someone like the developer of Bento Box to come to your house. For a long time in the early days of gaming many people had the same kind of attitude towards all gamers.

Obviously "rape is bad" but so is violence, so is murder, and to listen to you ramble about why one is ok and other is not, grasping about in the dark for a legitimate reason, shows how out of touch we are with our cultural biases.

Caveat: I do not play "rape games" myself. What I want to see more of is the exploration of mature topics in a sensitive and insightful manner in video games. I don't know how the whole Laura Croft almost gets raped thing is going to play out but they should at least be given the chance to attempt it.

At first I was really nervous and honestly sensitive about watching this video. But after a breather, I watched this and to my surprise you basically said everything I agree on. Thank you Jim for not only debating with great points but also proving why rape is far more personal and a no go then killing could ever be.

I'm not hyped for killing, but least killing is a fair justified case when your enemies for the most part are able to kill you, and rather quickly too. Rape on the other hand is a long process you must bear and feel every waking moment thus serves no purpose for the good guys.

Oh and I can name people who say that murder victims got what they deserved. Now bear with me for a minute

There's the Columbine victims. No not all of them but there's a popular narrative that those boys were tortured by bullies throughout high school and then snapped and went after the bullies (in reality they weren't target anyone in particular, just going for a maximum body count). I've seen lots of people justify that the bullies had it coming.

And then there's this number

Yeah there's a bit of a grey area over whether they were really taking their side but still, they made a huge number out of it, and one of the main characters is there too.

And since this is fiction we can make it clear that the rapist is motivated by selfish evil desires, and isn't someone who just couldn't help themself.

What about if there was a game where you can commit rape but the game calls you an evil bastard for it. I think that's a fair compromise.

Oh and yes you do hear 'don't go out at night/down that alleyway/wear certain colors if you don't want to get murdered'.

aattss:
So, porn is legal but rape in the gaming industry isn't?

Wait who said that?

aattss:

So what if someone is selling a product you personally don't like? Are you trying to impose your beliefs on others?

Did you miss the part where he said he'd defend someone's right to make a rape video game?

aattss:
There is no situation in which raping is more morally justifiable than killing.

You mean murder right? Because there are situations where killing someone is justified, or at least moreso than 1st degree murder.

Zachary Amaranth:
"Thou Shalt Not Kill" comes from a religion where women were property and attacks on women were treated as property crime.

Rape was not treated with as much severity because the primary victims were women and women weren't treated as people.

It's interesting to see that phrase used here.

Then again, also keep in mind that the commandments given including honouring your parents, making graven images, and worshipping other gods. The priorities here might be a little off here.

Don't kill dates back to Hammurabi, way before Christianity or Jesus were a thing.

I give Jim a lot of credit for being so willing to openly address this subject. It was extremely ballsy of him to do this video, and I respect him all the more for it.

wizzy555:
Was Dave Chapell talking about rape or prostitutes BTW?

Prostitutes.

He never once mentioned rape in his entire routine. He talked about commenting on their breasts. That's it.

Jimothy Sterling:

wizzy555:
Was Dave Chapell talking about rape or prostitutes BTW?

He was talking about treating women differently for dressing that way, which is a dangerous attitude to influence. It's why I said it was "indirect." He wasn't specifically talking about rape, but the argument rings so true to some justifications for rape that it's a fairly troublesome attitude to espouse.

Of course, your mileage may vary and I'm certainly not saying "BAN THIS SICK CHAPELL FILTH" or anything.

You whole argument sounds like one giant slippery slope. I mean he's talking about commenting on the body they're showing off. There's a long road from that to 'hey let's rape em'.

Just putting in my two cents here. I agree with Jim that there are plenty of good reasons Rape is seen as worse then murder. or at least more hated then that. I dont think one can argue which is moraly worse then the other.
Though killing has more variblaes, it can be just as bad as rape.
Then again one cant quantify how bad a crime is...Still, neither should be done.

Now if I think video games are allowed to portray that? I do. Why the fuck not, every other artform is allowed to adress the subject.

I think rape is just as much fair game as torture. How many times have we seen torture in video games? It has the same long lasting effects as rape, and can be just as traumatizing if not more.

But I've yet to see anyone make a big deal about torture in video games? Heck the Diablo series has tons of depictions of torture.

I can think of a lot of ways you can be a victim of murder and have to live with it. The murdered isn't the only one who could be witness. And in that case, arguing murder's relative harmless to rape becomes less... solid. I mean, I know friends who have watched people be killed in front of them. Are they not a victim of murder? Shellshocked soldiers, are they?

That's my only real issue with the argument though. Everything else is pretty solid. But really, that this topic has even been coming up recently shows just how petty and incessant the gaming industry and community really is. Film and books have moved past this ages ago. But in gaming, both its audience and creators, it's an area that needs debate...? What. What.

It's immature, it's childish. This and the whole gender wars and politics in gaming. It all reeks of a high schooler's approach to the subjects. It's honestly baffling.

Jigero:
I think rape is just as much fair game as torture. How many times have we seen torture in video games? It has the same long lasting effects as rape, and can be just as traumatizing if not more.

But I've yet to see anyone make a big deal about torture in video games? Heck the Diablo series has tons of depictions of torture.

When they release a game about torture, in which you commit the torture, come back to me.

Jimothy Sterling:

Stripes:
I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.

Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

You really shouldn't be making such a blanket statement man. There are people who give 'don't rape' lectures.

Jimothy Sterling:

Stripes:

Jimothy Sterling:

Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."

No need for the caps, lets not get hostile. How many of those adverts are directed at you? For that matter, how many are directed at people who know better? People beyond 25? very few, if any. You teach a child not to do wrong when it doesn't know right from wrong, does anyone still need to remind you, are you capable of working out right from wrong even beyond what you were taught? Are there any poster campaigns telling us not to murder? Its basic stuff, dont rape, dont steal, dont kill. We do not need to be taught. If you go out of your way to tell guys dont rape anyone you are just saying they might, its insulting. Your clearly passionate about this, I respect that, but there's no need to get aggressive.

I am not getting aggressive. I am emphatic. I am not angry or upset with you at all. I am, in fact, enjoying the discussion.

Now, I get you saying it's insulting. The thing is though, if the worst thing society does to me as a privileged white male

Why are you bringing race into this? I can only think of one very cynical reason to do so but I think you're above that.

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