The R Word

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I'm little peeved with the one line where you agree that using a word normalizes it and then completely dropping that point on the ground of "complicating the argument", but overall, good piece.

While you HAVE somewhat convinced me not to use certain words unless I know a person implicitly, I feel the need to get something out.

Deleting or censoring something in the name of possibly hurting someone who reads/hears it is generally a bad idea. Refrain when possible? Okay. Fine. But I won't think about every word I say and consider any way it could offend someone.

EVERY word could be offensive to someone. Every word could make them think of a horrible experience. Murder? Yep. Kill? Yep. Beat? Defeat? Kicked? All of those. You can't possibly predict it. While as I said before, you can refrain, deleting every entry on a website or expunging an action/word from culture is NOT the right thing to do.

Also, while I feel massive sympathy for you and what you went through, I think it's a bit naive to say that EVERYONE who has had something similar happen is in an identical emotional state to you. Just saying.

Fuck, The Escapist has gotten weird recently...

Thank you so much for speaking up about this. I really hope you can find some solace one day. I've had someone very dear to me confide that she had been assaulted by a person we both trusted as a big brother figure when we were little. I can never get over that soiled feeling my childhood memories bring. The memory of a boy I grew up with and trusted enough to sleep in his bed when I was scared of what another boy might do to me, is now a monster who had been the very one abusing our younger friend. She said nothing about it at the time, and I cannot imagine how hellish the experience must have been for her, and every time he came to visit us having to look him in the eye and smile like everything was ok. Rape is not a subject I ever joke about and I have never been comfortable using it lightly in games and chats, but I never told anyone off for using it either, even though it makes me really uncomfortable, all for fear of being labeled a prude. Letting people know just how terrible it is to use the word so lightly is something everyone needs to start doing; the context it's used in during games glorifies the person doing the raping and portrays the victim as being responsible for their assault for not being strong enough. This is not ok. Everyone who uses the word needs to realize that victims are not just people on the News; they are our neighbors, friends, and family. Those who are afraid to let anyone know about their experience don't need that word thrown around in a way that makes them feel weak when they are already dealing with so much. Thank you.

Kelethor:

Iron Lightning:
I'm sorry if this sounds insensitive but, Mr. Anonymous, you need to stop having the mentality of a fucking victim. You need to stop being a coward, trying as you do to block out anything to do with rape. It only represses your emotions and thus gives them more control over you. You need to stop living in fear.

You can do it. You know how I know that you can do it? Because when I was a wee lad of 4 I was raped multiple times. I repressed it. It haunted my dreams for 14 years until I re-experienced it in its totality when I was 18. It was the fucking worse thing ever but it still wasn't enough. After that I had 5 imaginary death experiences that were at least as painful as my initial re-experience. Even after that I had to quit my university for a few semesters because I found myself to be now so incapable of dealing with any stress that I would go into a state of paralytic shock for hours on ends at the simplest demands. Hell, it's only now that I've finally got over my subconscious fear of intimacy that has prevented me from forming any kind of sexual relationship.

But you know what? I got the fuck over it. Sure, my rape is still an uncomfortable subject but I didn't have to spend two damn weeks of suffering to write this post. As for the subject of rape in general I'm fine with it. I don't get offended at the use of rape in media or in the news or by punk-ass kids on Xbox. That's because I've learned to accept it and integrate it. I am no longer afraid because instead of repressing and running away from my fears I have the courage to confront them.

Mr. Anonymous you, sir, are a damn coward right now. You're letting your fears govern your life and the more you continue to run away from your fears the more they will own you. You don't have to be a coward, Mr. Anonymous, you can find the courage to confront your fears if you just get out of the mentality of being permanently damaged. No matter what anyone tells you, you don't have to be a damaged man.

Dude...the fuck?

I was never raped, and hopefully I never will be. You were. You know how painful, how traumatizing it is. Why in the FUCK would you rip on this guy, or call him a coward? he made it clear that rape isn't something to "overcome" or a challenge you can grow from. its something you carry with you for the rest of you're life. clearly the two of you disagree, because you seem to think it's just another part of life, or something you can "roll with"

Im really happy that you no longer suffer from trauma or fears, but for christ's sake, have some sympathy for the guy. as someone who suffered as you did, try and understand, like I, and everyone else is.

Erm... it's kind of ironic that you asked the guy to have sympathy and at the same time criticized him for his emotional response. It's understandable that he gets pissed off when he sees in others the destructive weakness that he had to overcome himself. His criticism may seem harsh to us, but it is clearly aimed at helping that guy. I doubt you or I could possibly understand what either person went through, and I'm fairly certain we don't have a place in the conversation of how to deal with it. Plus, he apologized for the apparent insensitivity of his argument at the outset.

macfluffers:

Entenzahn:

Imrix:
No, I just rank them as less traumatising than rape

The precise point at which I abandoned this ridiculous debate.

You and me both.

I mean, really? Imrix literally said that victims of child abuse, battery, and torture only nearly suffered a bad fate.

The only way to know if rape really is worse than other horrors is to conduct a study of people who've undergone various traumas including rape, and have them rank them. Otherwise it's purely subjective and not even worth suggesting. (And even that would be shaky.)

So, for the love of God, do not try to tell me that attempted murder and other traumas are not as bad as rape. I'd rather be raped than stabbed repeatedly in non-vital areas, and perhaps you feel differently, but either way, there's no way to objectively scale the horror, so we shouldn't try to say one is worse than another.

We either treat them the same or we do not expect others to have our sensibilities.

Even worse than the questionable methods in such a study is the fact that said study would be horrendously demeaning and trivializing. I mean for FUCK'S SAKE, whatever difference there might be between the suffering incurred by torture and rape is made meaningless by the sheer order of magnitude of difference between these things and other life events. We don't need to fucking rank them. It isn't a goddamn competition.

ReiverCorrupter:

Kelethor:

Iron Lightning:
I'm sorry if this sounds insensitive but, Mr. Anonymous, you need to stop having the mentality of a fucking victim. You need to stop being a coward, trying as you do to block out anything to do with rape. It only represses your emotions and thus gives them more control over you. You need to stop living in fear.

You can do it. You know how I know that you can do it? Because when I was a wee lad of 4 I was raped multiple times. I repressed it. It haunted my dreams for 14 years until I re-experienced it in its totality when I was 18. It was the fucking worse thing ever but it still wasn't enough. After that I had 5 imaginary death experiences that were at least as painful as my initial re-experience. Even after that I had to quit my university for a few semesters because I found myself to be now so incapable of dealing with any stress that I would go into a state of paralytic shock for hours on ends at the simplest demands. Hell, it's only now that I've finally got over my subconscious fear of intimacy that has prevented me from forming any kind of sexual relationship.

But you know what? I got the fuck over it. Sure, my rape is still an uncomfortable subject but I didn't have to spend two damn weeks of suffering to write this post. As for the subject of rape in general I'm fine with it. I don't get offended at the use of rape in media or in the news or by punk-ass kids on Xbox. That's because I've learned to accept it and integrate it. I am no longer afraid because instead of repressing and running away from my fears I have the courage to confront them.

Mr. Anonymous you, sir, are a damn coward right now. You're letting your fears govern your life and the more you continue to run away from your fears the more they will own you. You don't have to be a coward, Mr. Anonymous, you can find the courage to confront your fears if you just get out of the mentality of being permanently damaged. No matter what anyone tells you, you don't have to be a damaged man.

Dude...the fuck?

I was never raped, and hopefully I never will be. You were. You know how painful, how traumatizing it is. Why in the FUCK would you rip on this guy, or call him a coward? he made it clear that rape isn't something to "overcome" or a challenge you can grow from. its something you carry with you for the rest of you're life. clearly the two of you disagree, because you seem to think it's just another part of life, or something you can "roll with"

Im really happy that you no longer suffer from trauma or fears, but for christ's sake, have some sympathy for the guy. as someone who suffered as you did, try and understand, like I, and everyone else is.

Erm... it's kind of ironic that you asked the guy to have sympathy and at the same time criticized him for his emotional response. It's understandable that he gets pissed off when he sees in others the destructive weakness that he had to overcome himself. His criticism may seem harsh to us, but it is clearly aimed at helping that guy. I doubt you or I could possibly understand what either person went through, and I'm fairly certain we don't have a place in the conversation of how to deal with it. Plus, he apologized for the apparent insensitivity of his argument at the outset.

Yeah...to be completely honest, I didn't read every page of comments after reading the article (and didn't see the apology come up) and so when I first read Iron Lightning's post I was a little...excited. I did go back and edit my post. so hopefully that will clear things up.

MrDeckard:
I'm little peeved with the one line where you agree that using a word normalizes it and then completely dropping that point on the ground of "complicating the argument", but overall, good piece.

While you HAVE somewhat convinced me not to use certain words unless I know a person implicitly, I feel the need to get something out.

Deleting or censoring something in the name of possibly hurting someone who reads/hears it is generally a bad idea. Refrain when possible? Okay. Fine. But I won't think about every word I say and consider any way it could offend someone.

EVERY word could be offensive to someone. Every word could make them think of a horrible experience. Murder? Yep. Kill? Yep. Beat? Defeat? Kicked? All of those. You can't possibly predict it. While as I said before, you can refrain, deleting every entry on a website or expunging an action/word from culture is NOT the right thing to do.

Also, while I feel massive sympathy for you and what you went through, I think it's a bit naive to say that EVERYONE who has had something similar happen is in an identical emotional state to you. Just saying.

Fuck, The Escapist has gotten weird recently...

Er, no. It's true that certain words will be hurtful to other people, based on their past experiences. But rape is used out of context. When you beat someone in a video game, they are defeated. It is equivalent to getting kicked, beaten. Virtually, their character died, ie: murdered or killed.

But raped? No. Because the map resets, and everything is hunky dory. Rape implies psychological damage.

And isn't it kind of naive to assume that his statement is false if you've never been raped? Just saying. I've met numerous people who can say "Yeah, I was mugged last week," or "some guy was pointing a gun at me." These events were terrifying, but they eventually learned to move on. However, I have NEVER met someone who was willing to say "I was raped earlier in my life."

Also, he isn't calling for censorship. Just respect. We have to use the word rape to convey the associated meaning. But just because we can use the word, doesn't mean we have to throw it out after every CoD match.

Kelethor:

ReiverCorrupter:

Kelethor:

Dude...the fuck?

I was never raped, and hopefully I never will be. You were. You know how painful, how traumatizing it is. Why in the FUCK would you rip on this guy, or call him a coward? he made it clear that rape isn't something to "overcome" or a challenge you can grow from. its something you carry with you for the rest of you're life. clearly the two of you disagree, because you seem to think it's just another part of life, or something you can "roll with"

Im really happy that you no longer suffer from trauma or fears, but for christ's sake, have some sympathy for the guy. as someone who suffered as you did, try and understand, like I, and everyone else is.

Erm... it's kind of ironic that you asked the guy to have sympathy and at the same time criticized him for his emotional response. It's understandable that he gets pissed off when he sees in others the destructive weakness that he had to overcome himself. His criticism may seem harsh to us, but it is clearly aimed at helping that guy. I doubt you or I could possibly understand what either person went through, and I'm fairly certain we don't have a place in the conversation of how to deal with it. Plus, he apologized for the apparent insensitivity of his argument at the outset.

Yeah...to be completely honest, I didn't read every page of comments after reading the article (and didn't see the apology come up) and so when I first read Iron Lightning's post I was a little...excited. I did go back and edit my post. so hopefully that will clear things up.

I agree with Iron Lightning. Part of growing up is to take all of these things that happen to you and grow past them. Bad things happen. We have to accept them and move on. Even more, I have to ask everyone something. Stop having pity for us or anyone who has gone through this. Yes, it is terrible to happen. But we do not deserve any special treatment for the short comings in our lives. People are strong to move past this. Allow us to without thinking we are broken, or that we will suffer forever.

Mahatma Gandhi once said that: "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." People cannot build that will when they are given special treatment, or pity, or feel that we need to be picked up or even understood -just- because something happened to us. If you think about it, the average person looks at someone who has been raped like a broken mirror, that with enough tender love and care, it can be fixed. That's just not true. And in treating people who have been raped as such, you are not doing them a favor. But rather an injustice.

I do not expect free money to come to me because I am of african american blood and my ancestors were treated harshly. I expect to work for my money and rewards. I do not ask for free money for college because I am 1/16th native american and some have had their land stolen. And I do not ask to be treated like a hero because I have been to war, fought, and nearly died for whatever purpose it truly may have been, I simply ask to be treated like you--yourself would wish to be treated. Without exception, with fairness, and goodwill.

I, and many like myself are strong enough to move past the dark parts in our lives and see the light. (And no, that is not a religious statement) But people must allow others--like the Author of the article--to move past this, rather than bellow in his misery.

Rape is a word. That is all it is. Just like many other words that are hateful like a word that starts with "N". Or "S." Any you can think of. It's the action, not the word that we should be against.

Holy crap. I just. Mind blown. I am so sorry to you and anyone else who may have had an experience even remotely close to this. I'm sorry that those things happened and I'm sorry for each and every time that I used that word in an inappropriate context.

Whoever you are, you just became a new personal hero of mine. Thank you.

Mike Kayatta:
For those of you claiming that the word rape should be allowed as slang because "it doesn't carry that meaning for everyone" or that victims should "get over it," I have to ask ... why? Is it such a difficult task that you be asked to avoid careless expressions like"fag" or "rape" because it may spare someone else's feelings? Does you not being able to use those words somehow cause you harm or hurt your ability to communicate? Why should it ever be acceptable for people to cast aside all thoughts of others just for the lazy luxury of using the first word that comes to mind? There are people in the world who've dealt with serious hardship, hardship which hopefully most of you will never have to endure. If you do, however, I for one hope others will act with less callousness and more care regarding your sensitivities than you've been willing to afford those whose feelings you're so readily dismissing at present.

Well, I'd say that the majority of the arguments in this thread are based upon a confusion: one side thinks the other side is claiming that it's perfectly alright to use the term 'rape' on a moral level. The other side thinks that those who are criticizing the use of the term 'rape' are actually trying to get it banned. They're both arguing against a straw-man, but the emotional nature of the topic keeps them from realizing that their opponent isn't making the claim that they think they are making.

Obviously, there are some people who actually are taking those extreme positions, but I'm pretty sure they're the minority. Some of these people end up arguing that use of the term 'rape' is morally acceptable because they are pushed into that position by their efforts to make the exact opposite claims as their adversaries, and they would probably reject their own arguments if they thought about them objectively. They're probably only making those arguments because they're afraid that their free speech is being threatened. (Offensive though that speech may be.)

So there you go: that's the formula for the vast majority of forum debates.

As far as my own position is concerned, I think it's obvious that anyone who casually throws the term around is an ass. I also don't think it's a violation of one's right to free speech for these companies to ban such terms; access to their service is a privilege, not a right.

But at the same time I'm not sure that the situation calls for any additional censorship considering most of these online services already give you the ability to report people for foul language and preemptively block communications. (Though I am not saying that the author or anyone else is actually suggesting that additional steps need to be taken.)

The companies aren't responsible for what the users of the service say, and they only censor people so that they don't lose customers. They aren't really under any obligation to take additional steps. While the people who use such terms are clearly in the wrong and should stop doing what they're doing out of common courtesy, someone who finds these terms offensive/harmful cannot complain that additional steps need to be taken if they do not first utilize what is already there.

Anyone who is offended by these terms but refuses to exit game-chat on Xbox Live must be a glutton for punishment. If people start saying these things and it offends you, then either report them, mute them, or both. They generally need proof that the person said what you are accusing them of saying. If just one report was enough to ban someone, then the asshole inhabitants of Xbox Live would start reporting everyone that pissed them off. The cost of hiring the Orwellian system of monitors necessary to make sure that everyone gets banned after the first offense would be ludicrous. There just isn't any way for Microsoft to preemptively make sure you don't hear the term other than allowing you to block all communications as a whole. (Once again, I am just arguing a general point and I am not attributing the position I am arguing against to anyone in particular.)

But in regards to the article itself, I have no problem with someone explaining why the term is harmful. (I agree with the author's point in that the term is clearly capable of being harmful to individuals who have been traumatized, though I am a bit more skeptical of any claim that the careless use of the term actually contributes to more incidents of rape in a statistically relevant way.)

Ramzal:

Kelethor:

ReiverCorrupter:

Erm... it's kind of ironic that you asked the guy to have sympathy and at the same time criticized him for his emotional response. It's understandable that he gets pissed off when he sees in others the destructive weakness that he had to overcome himself. His criticism may seem harsh to us, but it is clearly aimed at helping that guy. I doubt you or I could possibly understand what either person went through, and I'm fairly certain we don't have a place in the conversation of how to deal with it. Plus, he apologized for the apparent insensitivity of his argument at the outset.

Yeah...to be completely honest, I didn't read every page of comments after reading the article (and didn't see the apology come up) and so when I first read Iron Lightning's post I was a little...excited. I did go back and edit my post. so hopefully that will clear things up.

I agree with Iron Lightning. Part of growing up is to take all of these things that happen to you and grow past them. Bad things happen. We have to accept them and move on. Even more, I have to ask everyone something. Stop having pity for us or anyone who has gone through this. Yes, it is terrible to happen. But we do not deserve any special treatment for the short comings in our lives. People are strong to move past this. Allow us to without thinking we are broken, or that we will suffer forever.

Mahatma Gandhi once said that: "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." People cannot build that will when they are given special treatment, or pity, or feel that we need to be picked up or even understood -just- because something happened to us. If you think about it, the average person looks at someone who has been raped like a broken mirror, that with enough tender love and care, it can be fixed. That's just not true. And in treating people who have been raped as such, you are not doing them a favor. But rather an injustice.

I do not expect free money to come to me because I am of african american blood and my ancestors were treated harshly. I expect to work for my money and rewards. I do not ask for free money for college because I am 1/16th native american and some have had their land stolen. And I do not ask to be treated like a hero because I have been to war, fought, and nearly died for whatever purpose it truly may have been, I simply ask to be treated like you--yourself would wish to be treated. Without exception, with fairness, and goodwill.

I, and many like myself are strong enough to move past the dark parts in our lives and see the light. (And no, that is not a religious statement) But people must allow others--like the Author of the article--to move past this, rather than bellow in his misery.

Rape is a word. That is all it is. Just like many other words that are hateful like a word that starts with "N". Or "S." Any you can think of. It's the action, not the word that we should be against.

Those were some powerful sentiments you expressed there. I'm not going to go into the nature of rape itself, but I think your overall point is spot-on. I'm all for having compassion for people, but treating them like a victim will probably only perpetuate their feeling of victimization.

There's a difference between compassion and pity. The former is the bedrock of all morality. The latter is something no one wants or asks for. Compassion is automatic, it's what people feel when they rush to the aid of others. Pity is the result of an over-intellectualized reflection upon the difference between your situation and that of the other person. One is expressed through action, the other through empty words. One regards only the needs of the other person, the other regards the needs of one's own ego.

Trying to imagine what another person is feeling doesn't make you a good person. Acting to help that person does.

God lately things have been really really depressing...and really focused on rape...Not something I really want to have a serious week long discussion about. Suppose nothing like this is ever fun to talk about.

Darkmantle:

You are aware that the author is male right?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women

Hmm...I don't really have anything else to add beyond this. [But it looks like I added quite a bit in retrospect]. Just wanted to note the URL and that still you'll find the vast majority of posts in here probably assuming the author is a woman.

I personally had some unfortunate events transpire in my youth with a baby sitter. It >may< be why I don't treat sexuality as anything special. Nobody ever found out so nobody was there to tell me something terrible had happened. Just was something that transpired and I think back on it similar to how you might think back to having a sandwich. No real emotional attachment.

Anywho, nothing else to add. Touchy subject and one of those things where folks who have no idea are more than happy to be extremely aggressive and defensive about the topic.

Prosis:

And isn't it kind of naive to assume that his statement is false if you've never been raped?

*snip*

However, I have NEVER met someone who was willing to say "I was raped earlier in my life."

Also, he isn't calling for censorship. Just respect. We have to use the word rape to convey the associated meaning. But just because we can use the word, doesn't mean we have to throw it out after every CoD match.

I'm not sure its really something you brag about. The US is big on violence so people like to tell stories of how they survived a violent encounter.

We are mortified of sexuality, likely for various cultural and religious reasons, so its a topic that is far past discussion and when its a negative sexual incident its something that tarnishes a persons image even though they are the victim.

You could say Rape in any fashion you wished and flop that word around like it has no meaning. It wouldn't hurt my feelings or bring up any thoughts.

There is danger in giving words power and the use of words does not signify any character traits by itself.

I've also got a friend who I had to coach through Rape when she was assaulted during a party. We would find ourselves a year or so later playing Halo and her saying she had Raped me.

Does that mean she didn't take the incident seriously? Most certainly not, for her it was horrifying and I had never seen her in a darker place. Perhaps making the word meaningless was a way for her to cope with the ordeal.

Judge the intention of the words, not the words themselves.

Great article. One thing, though. Why should we stop at rape? We should stop using all bad words altogether because deep inside, we're all autistic and don't understand context.
"I killed you"? No, some people have had family members killed and this is a sensitive issue for them. We don't want to be complacent with murder culture, now do we?
Or "cocksucker". Some people like to "suck cock" so why should that be used as an insult?
Or "your mom" jokes. Some people don't have mothers and this is a very sensitive issue for them.
Or using the word "retard". Some people have retarded family members, friends or are themselves retarded and they don't take this word lightly. I can only give my greatest compliments to The Escapist for being very progressive and giving me a suspension for using that awful world. It has made me a much more socially aware citizen and a much better person. I have gained new insight into life and my horizons have broadened.

Holy fucknugget, there's so many things we could censor. Just think of the possibilities!
The world will be a lot better place if we simple use only politically correct words and phrases because a kitten dies every time some poor princess gets insulted over the internet of all places.

This can also lead to all sorts of wonderful strawman arguments like "So are you saying rape victims are worth more than motherless children?", etc.

...
Censorship is a slippery slope and it's something I will always fight against.
Sure, dude, if I know you're a rape victim, I won't bang it against your head as I'm not an idiot. However, anyone telling me it's wrong to make rape jokes with my friends (it's not really what we do, but I'm trying to prove a point) can rightfully gtfo. It's my right, I'm not hurting anyone and it doesn't mean I glorify rape. I love racist jokes (both ways), I love sexist jokes (both ways), I love jokes about crippled people. I even joked about my grandmother when she died. When I'm gonna be dying, I'll joke about that too and encourage others to have a laugh at it. Either everything goes or nothing goes. Everyone who is ok with murder, but isn't with rape is an imbecile. Denial and censorship won't make either go away.

I honestly hate this politically correct age where you aren't allowed to think and express yourself the way you want to.

Edit
Applause to Iron Lightning.
I admire people like you.

Babitz:
Great article. One thing, though. Why should we stop at rape? We should stop using all bad words altogether because deep inside, we're all autistic and don't understand context.
"I killed you"? No, some people have had family members killed and this is a sensitive issue for them. We don't want to be complacent with murder culture, now do we?
Or "cocksucker". Some people like to "suck cock" so why should that be used as an insult?
Or "your mom" jokes. Some people don't have mothers and this is a very sensitive issue for them.
Or using the word "retard". Some people have retarded family members, friends or are themselves retarded and they don't take this word lightly. I can only give my greatest compliments to The Escapist for being very progressive and giving me a suspension for using that awful world. It has made me a much more socially aware citizen and a much better person. I have gain new insight into life and my horizons have broadened.

Holy fucknugget, there's so many things we could censor. Just think of the possibilities!
The world will be a lot better place if we simple use only politically correct words and phrases because a kitten dies every time some poor princess gets insulted over the internet of all places.

This can also lead to all sorts of wonderful strawman arguments like "So are you saying rape victims are worth more than motherless children?", etc.

...
Censorship is a slippery slope and it's something I will always fight against.
Sure, dude, if I know you're a rape victim, I won't bang it against your head as I'm not an idiot. However, anyone telling me it's wrong to make rape jokes with my friends (it's not really what we do, but I'm trying to prove a point) can rightfully gtfo. It's my right, I'm not hurting anyone and it doesn't mean I glorify rape. I love racist jokes (both ways), I love sexist jokes (both ways), I love jokes about crippled people. I even joked about my grandmother when she died. When I'm gonna be dying, I'll joke about that too and encourage others to have a laugh at it. Either everything goes or nothing goes. Everyone who is ok with murder, but isn't with rape is an imbecile. Denial and censorship won't make either go away.

I honestly hate this politically correct age where you aren't allowed to think and express yourself the way you want to.

He's not saying censor the word, he's not saying censor things that contain it.
He's saying that people need to understand how it affects people, and that it shouldn't be thrown around for trivial purposes.
If you kill someone in an online game, that is not "raping" them. It's okay to use it to mean rape, but when you throw it around to mean destruction, domination... it's wrong.
Using the term "faggot" doesn't hurt gay people. Sure, it's not a nice thing to say, and you come across as a homophobic twat, but it doesn't hurt like rape does.
The author is pointing out the severity of rape and that it's not to be treated lightly, not to be used for pointless character development, but only for things that warrant it.
The author is not asking for censorship, more... consideration.

Fluffles:

Babitz:
Great article. One thing, though. Why should we stop at rape? We should stop using all bad words altogether because deep inside, we're all autistic and don't understand context.
"I killed you"? No, some people have had family members killed and this is a sensitive issue for them. We don't want to be complacent with murder culture, now do we?
Or "cocksucker". Some people like to "suck cock" so why should that be used as an insult?
Or "your mom" jokes. Some people don't have mothers and this is a very sensitive issue for them.
Or using the word "retard". Some people have retarded family members, friends or are themselves retarded and they don't take this word lightly. I can only give my greatest compliments to The Escapist for being very progressive and giving me a suspension for using that awful world. It has made me a much more socially aware citizen and a much better person. I have gain new insight into life and my horizons have broadened.

Holy fucknugget, there's so many things we could censor. Just think of the possibilities!
The world will be a lot better place if we simple use only politically correct words and phrases because a kitten dies every time some poor princess gets insulted over the internet of all places.

This can also lead to all sorts of wonderful strawman arguments like "So are you saying rape victims are worth more than motherless children?", etc.

...
Censorship is a slippery slope and it's something I will always fight against.
Sure, dude, if I know you're a rape victim, I won't bang it against your head as I'm not an idiot. However, anyone telling me it's wrong to make rape jokes with my friends (it's not really what we do, but I'm trying to prove a point) can rightfully gtfo. It's my right, I'm not hurting anyone and it doesn't mean I glorify rape. I love racist jokes (both ways), I love sexist jokes (both ways), I love jokes about crippled people. I even joked about my grandmother when she died. When I'm gonna be dying, I'll joke about that too and encourage others to have a laugh at it. Either everything goes or nothing goes. Everyone who is ok with murder, but isn't with rape is an imbecile. Denial and censorship won't make either go away.

I honestly hate this politically correct age where you aren't allowed to think and express yourself the way you want to.

He's not saying censor the word, he's not saying censor things that contain it.
He's saying that people need to understand how it affects people, and that it shouldn't be thrown around for trivial purposes.
If you kill someone in an online game, that is not "raping" them. It's okay to use it to mean rape, but when you throw it around to mean destruction, domination... it's wrong.
Using the term "faggot" doesn't hurt gay people. Sure, it's not a nice thing to say, and you come across as a homophobic twat, but it doesn't hurt like rape does.
The author is pointing out the severity of rape and that it's not to be treated lightly, not to be used for pointless character development, but only for things that warrant it.
The author is not asking for censorship, more... consideration.

Why stop at that?
Why don't we also take races, people whose closest have been murdered, homosexuals, the crippled, retarded, etc., also into consideration?
Like I said, it's a slippery slope.
Why shouldn't it be thrown around for trivial purposes and murder should? Everyone knows what they mean and no one in their right mind thinks they're glorifying rape or murder with that.
If you do get hurt by that then I'm sorry, you should probably lock yourself up somewhere until you solve your problems and are ready to get integrated back into society.

Also, saying "faggot" doesn't make you homophobic and neither does saying "nigga" make you racist.

Babitz:

Fluffles:

Babitz:
Great article. One thing, though. Why should we stop at rape? We should stop using all bad words altogether because deep inside, we're all autistic and don't understand context.
"I killed you"? No, some people have had family members killed and this is a sensitive issue for them. We don't want to be complacent with murder culture, now do we?
Or "cocksucker". Some people like to "suck cock" so why should that be used as an insult?
Or "your mom" jokes. Some people don't have mothers and this is a very sensitive issue for them.
Or using the word "retard". Some people have retarded family members, friends or are themselves retarded and they don't take this word lightly. I can only give my greatest compliments to The Escapist for being very progressive and giving me a suspension for using that awful world. It has made me a much more socially aware citizen and a much better person. I have gain new insight into life and my horizons have broadened.

Holy fucknugget, there's so many things we could censor. Just think of the possibilities!
The world will be a lot better place if we simple use only politically correct words and phrases because a kitten dies every time some poor princess gets insulted over the internet of all places.

This can also lead to all sorts of wonderful strawman arguments like "So are you saying rape victims are worth more than motherless children?", etc.

...
Censorship is a slippery slope and it's something I will always fight against.
Sure, dude, if I know you're a rape victim, I won't bang it against your head as I'm not an idiot. However, anyone telling me it's wrong to make rape jokes with my friends (it's not really what we do, but I'm trying to prove a point) can rightfully gtfo. It's my right, I'm not hurting anyone and it doesn't mean I glorify rape. I love racist jokes (both ways), I love sexist jokes (both ways), I love jokes about crippled people. I even joked about my grandmother when she died. When I'm gonna be dying, I'll joke about that too and encourage others to have a laugh at it. Either everything goes or nothing goes. Everyone who is ok with murder, but isn't with rape is an imbecile. Denial and censorship won't make either go away.

I honestly hate this politically correct age where you aren't allowed to think and express yourself the way you want to.

He's not saying censor the word, he's not saying censor things that contain it.
He's saying that people need to understand how it affects people, and that it shouldn't be thrown around for trivial purposes.
If you kill someone in an online game, that is not "raping" them. It's okay to use it to mean rape, but when you throw it around to mean destruction, domination... it's wrong.
Using the term "faggot" doesn't hurt gay people. Sure, it's not a nice thing to say, and you come across as a homophobic twat, but it doesn't hurt like rape does.
The author is pointing out the severity of rape and that it's not to be treated lightly, not to be used for pointless character development, but only for things that warrant it.
The author is not asking for censorship, more... consideration.

Why stop at that?
Why don't we also take races, people whose closest have been murdered, homosexuals, the crippled, retarded, etc., also into consideration?
Like I said, it's a slippery slope.
Why shouldn't it be thrown around for trivial purposes and murder should? Everyone knows what they mean and no one in their right mind thinks they're glorifying rape or murder with that.
If you do get hurt by that then I'm sorry, you should probably lock yourself up somewhere until you solve your problems and are ready to get integrated back into society.

Also, saying "faggot" doesn't make you homophobic and neither does saying "nigga" make you racist.

The slippery slope argument is stupid, because if it actually made any sense then we would be aborting people when they were 42 years old, we would be marrying babies with dogs and advertising on people's foreheads.
We should consider audiences when you say things. It's always a good idea. Rape is the most serious end, where consideration should be in full force because it is one of the most extreme things that can ever happen to a person. If everyone knew what it meant then people would not use it in the way that they do. People wouldn't be surprised by articles like this because they would understand the severity of the act, and how triggering things can be after the fact.
Using faggot as an insult can very well make you homophobic, which is why the people who say it do come across as homophobes, but of course they mightn't be. They might just be arsehats.

Azuaron:
Rape is different from racism (which, by the by, is also never funny).

Just slightly deviating from the topic, I don't find racism funny - but I do find portrayals of racism in society funny. Racist jokes that I find funny aren't actually being racist, they are making light of the racists, pointing out the trivialities of racism. It's laughing at stereotypes.

As an example: the portrayal of black people to always like chicken might be funny because it's just a ridiculous portrayal of a group. It's a stereotype that nobody believes, and if they do and they are using it as an insult then they are seriously misinformed and I'll laugh at them too.

There are of course lines, and consideration needs to be made of audiences, but I think everything is funny if you aren't actually being the negative thing. Like racism is funny if you're not being racist. I think rape steps out of that because it's extremely hard to find a rape joke that is making light of society, they tend to instead target the victim - which is extremely unfunny.

Hopefully that makes sense...

Babitz:

Fluffles:

He's not saying censor the word, he's not saying censor things that contain it.
He's saying that people need to understand how it affects people, and that it shouldn't be thrown around for trivial purposes.
If you kill someone in an online game, that is not "raping" them. It's okay to use it to mean rape, but when you throw it around to mean destruction, domination... it's wrong.
Using the term "faggot" doesn't hurt gay people. Sure, it's not a nice thing to say, and you come across as a homophobic twat, but it doesn't hurt like rape does.
The author is pointing out the severity of rape and that it's not to be treated lightly, not to be used for pointless character development, but only for things that warrant it.
The author is not asking for censorship, more... consideration.

Why stop at that?
Why don't we also take races, people whose closest have been murdered, homosexuals, the crippled, retarded, etc., also into consideration?
Like I said, it's a slippery slope.
Why shouldn't it be thrown around for trivial purposes and murder should? Everyone knows what they mean and no one in their right mind thinks they're glorifying rape or murder with that.
If you do get hurt by that then I'm sorry, you should probably lock yourself up somewhere until you solve your problems and are ready to get integrated back into society.

Also, saying "faggot" doesn't make you homophobic and neither does saying "nigga" make you racist.

Before this goes on into a 12 post debate, let me explain: what the people like the author are claiming is the term 'rape' can cause tramatic wounds to open up for people who have experienced it, so people who use the word casually over the internet are assholes.

They aren't claiming that it should be censored. They just want people to think about what they're saying. There is a difference between saying that casual use of the word 'rape' is a dick-move, and saying that we should make efforts to censor people. Trust me, if they were asking for censorship I would be right there with you. However, I should point out that companies can censor your speech however they want online: your use of their service is a privilege, not a right. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, just that they can do it.

What I think you want to say is that you aren't going to stop using phrases you think are funny on the very off chance that it might offend someone. That would probably make you a dick according to the author and others, but frankly there are far worse things than being a dick who occasionally offends people. What you're saying is that you're fine with potentially being a dick if it brings you more enjoyment than constantly watching what you say, and that you can't please everyone. I'm not going to argue against that position.

However, that's different from saying that it's perfectly acceptable to use the term 'rape' casually in the public sphere, which would require a more elaborate ethical argument and would run contrary to most people's intuitions on the matter. If that's what you're trying to argue then good luck.

The author is saying that you should avoid using the term rape because it actually hurts certain people. Against this point one might argue that if you're psychologically unstable enough to actually be hurt by a word then it's really on you to avoid it, much like it is on people with peanut allergies to avoid peanuts. Especially when things like Xbox Live offer you all sorts of options to preemptively block communications. One should think that such an easily hurt person would recognize the nature of online video games and would take the necessary precautions.

That could potentially be another reason why you don't factor hurting those people into your decision whether or not to use a certain word. This is, of course, not to say that the word is okay; just that one wouldn't factor implausible scenarios into their decision to use the word, and that a person being hurt by the word is implausible because such people would likely not expose themselves to situations where it is likely to occur in the first place. (Please note that I'm not arguing this point myself, I am merely presenting it as an addendum to my previous caricature of your position.)

What I will say is this: a little common courtesy never hurt anyone. If you find offensive jokes funny, it probably wouldn't kill you to tell them within party-chat with your friends who enjoy them. Telling them in front of a bunch of complete strangers without thought as to whether you might offend someone does kinda make you a dick.

However, while casually throwing around terms like 'rape' and racial epithets might make you an insensitive asshole, I do agree with you that it doesn't necessarily make you a racist or mean that you're condoning rape. But I don't recall anyone making the argument that it does.

Using racial epithets for comedic purposes might make you racially insensitive, but it doesn't mean that you hate an entire group of people for the color of their skin, and that's what racism really is. Anyone who uses the term more loosely than that is really just watering it down. Frankly, it doesn't even make you prejudiced because you can tell a joke about stereotypes without actually believing that the stereotypes are true.

People need to realize that there are different ways in which people can be dicks, which admit to varying degrees of moral reprehensibility. Someone who tells offensive jokes is pretty low on the totem pole. In fact, I have a hard time thinking of anyone lower than that. Maybe someone who doesn't hold the door open for people, or cuts in line? Anyone who intentionally harasses someone with the intention of hurting them is doing something much worse than someone who uses the term 'rape' to casually describe a headshot in an online FPS.

- So people shouldn't say rape because it could be an emotional trigger for the listener, you couldn't know this beforehand -

This is really a slippery slope you're heading down though. Many things which seem harmless even can be triggers to a listener, how the hell am I meant to know your triggers? Murder as a term is pretty acceptable, not so funny if one of your family members was murdered. This can really carry to any phrase. Not saying something because you might possibly offend someone in an unprecedented manner is insanity.

Therumancer:
I know more about homosexuals, the gay rights movement, and the gay community, culture, and subcultures than most gay people within that culture do.

Hmm, yes "that culture".

Mate, the majority of gay men are not rapists just like the majority of straight men are not rapists.

I'll also point out that most paedophilia occurs as incest as fathers against daughters and is under-reported. While your experience has obviously coloured your views your views are still bigoted. While you are entitled to them they are vile, hateful, wrong-headed and thankfully in decline in society.

It'll be a grand day when people like you are reduced to the same status as neo-nazis and the KKK.

Edit: On topic, yes, don't tell people you "raped" them and don't make jokes about rape... It's not nice.

Be nice.

Baneat:
- So people shouldn't say rape because it could be an emotional trigger for the listener, you couldn't know this beforehand -

This is really a slippery slope you're heading down though. Many things which seem harmless even can be triggers to a listener, how the hell am I meant to know your triggers? Murder as a term is pretty acceptable, not so funny if one of your family members was murdered. This can really carry to any phrase. Not saying something because you might possibly offend someone in an unprecedented manner is insanity.

But you don't go walking around telling people that you are going to "murder" them or tell jokes about murder either.

I agree with this. I've never been down that road myself, however the extent to which I am able to imagine it has me pretty confident in one thing; it ain't fun.

It goes beyond rape though. Only a very fortunate few of us don't have a single psychological scar of some description. So to make a joke which trivializes anything people suffer is just wandering into a minefield.

ReiverCorrupter:

subtlefuge:

At this point, I should just come out and say it: we're not debating anything. By that I mean that I make a point, you latch on to a single word (words that you claimed were meaningless less than 10 pages back), you deflect and justify and distract from the issue.

Helmholtz Watson:

subtlefuge:
^^snip^^

I'm just pointing out that if a person is going to be so apposed to using the word rape, I see no reason why they should not also feel so strongly about the word "torture", "murder", or "kill".

Neither of you are really engaging in a debate so much as going around in circles making counter-assertions.

People can have strong reactions to almost any word. Someone whose loved one was murdered could have a very bad reaction to people using the word 'murder'.

However, rape is different in that it's something that is extremely personal. It's the actual victim of rape who is traumatized by it. Not only that, but it is an act of one person violating another in the most intimate way possible. The real problem is that it is pretty much the most traumatic thing that can happen to a person, and thus hearing the term 'rape' tossed around casually is bound to cause more suffering than tossing around the term 'murder'.

I would say that torture is probably even worse, but there just aren't nearly as many people who are tortured so you're less likely to cause someone distress by throwing around the term.

Well, you're just repeating exactly everything that I've said, so thanks for the assertions.

More seriously though, my only point I was ever trying to make before I got too frustrated to see or think straight is that if you are offended by murder, you have no reason to be playing Call of Duty online. It should be completely acceptable to throw around that phrase in the specific violent online video game context. In the same way, people playing Animal Crossing or Mario Kart should not be subjected to being told that they are going to be murdered, because it really has nothing to do with the gameplay mechanics. Being offended by the word rape shouldn't exclude you from the experience of shooting people online.

Man...That hit right in the feelings factory.

TAdamson:

Baneat:
- So people shouldn't say rape because it could be an emotional trigger for the listener, you couldn't know this beforehand -

This is really a slippery slope you're heading down though. Many things which seem harmless even can be triggers to a listener, how the hell am I meant to know your triggers? Murder as a term is pretty acceptable, not so funny if one of your family members was murdered. This can really carry to any phrase. Not saying something because you might possibly offend someone in an unprecedented manner is insanity.

But you don't go walking around telling people that you are going to "murder" them or tell jokes about murder either.

No but that wasnt the point of that argument.
Read again, read correctly.
The principle that we should censor ourselves just to not "offend" people we do not know, is just silly. Then again, just like you said we dont go, well most of us anyway, and make casual murderjokes or rapejokes out in public because "freedom of speech" or whatever you wanna call it, that is equally silly.

TAdamson:

Baneat:
- So people shouldn't say rape because it could be an emotional trigger for the listener, you couldn't know this beforehand -

This is really a slippery slope you're heading down though. Many things which seem harmless even can be triggers to a listener, how the hell am I meant to know your triggers? Murder as a term is pretty acceptable, not so funny if one of your family members was murdered. This can really carry to any phrase. Not saying something because you might possibly offend someone in an unprecedented manner is insanity.

But you don't go walking around telling people that you are going to "murder" them or tell jokes about murder either.

Englishman,Irishman & Scotsman in France are sentenced to death by guillotine. The Englisman puts his head on the block 1st & the executioner pulls the lever, but the blade doesn't fall. The governor says ' If this happens 3 times then by French law you walk free'. The lever is pulled twice more & still the blade doesn't fall so he was set free. The same thing happens when the Scotsman had his head on the block & he was set free. Paddy puts his head on the block, the lever is pulled , again the blade doesn't fall. Then Paddy turns round so the back of his head's on the block. The lever's pulled & the blade doesn't budge. 'Aha!!' says Paddy 'hold on! I can see what the problem is!'

maninahat:
This is the single most important article I have read on the escapist, and there is nothing more I can say about it.

This. Thank you.

Monxeroth:

No but that wasnt the point of that argument.
Read again, read correctly.

I did read it mate and I don't know what you mean by "correctly" but maybe you should write it "correctly".

You seemed to be arguing that this is a censorship issue when it's not. It's a common decency issue.

"The principle that we should censor ourselves just to not "offend" people we do not know is just silly."

There is a gaping chasm between having an opinion that people take offence at, for example:

"I believe that religion does more harm than good."

Which might offend the religious but I can't help that, and acting in a vulgar and despicable way, say, by going on XBox live and telling my opponent that I'm "going to fuck their mother".

One is an opinion that might offend some people and the other is being dick.

Don't be a dick.

wizzy555:

TAdamson:

Baneat:
- So people shouldn't say rape because it could be an emotional trigger for the listener, you couldn't know this beforehand -

This is really a slippery slope you're heading down though. Many things which seem harmless even can be triggers to a listener, how the hell am I meant to know your triggers? Murder as a term is pretty acceptable, not so funny if one of your family members was murdered. This can really carry to any phrase. Not saying something because you might possibly offend someone in an unprecedented manner is insanity.

But you don't go walking around telling people that you are going to "murder" them or tell jokes about murder either.

Englishman,Irishman & Scotsman in France are sentenced to death by guillotine. The Englisman puts his head on the block 1st & the executioner pulls the lever, but the blade doesn't fall. The governor says ' If this happens 3 times then by French law you walk free'. The lever is pulled twice more & still the blade doesn't fall so he was set free. The same thing happens when the Scotsman had his head on the block & he was set free. Paddy puts his head on the block, the lever is pulled , again the blade doesn't fall. Then Paddy turns round so the back of his head's on the block. The lever's pulled & the blade doesn't budge. 'Aha!!' says Paddy 'hold on! I can see what the problem is!'

Very funny.

My point was that people don't go on XBox live and tell their opponents that they are "going to murder them" or that they have "murdered them".

ReiverCorrupter:

Babitz:

Fluffles:

He's not saying censor the word, he's not saying censor things that contain it.
He's saying that people need to understand how it affects people, and that it shouldn't be thrown around for trivial purposes.
If you kill someone in an online game, that is not "raping" them. It's okay to use it to mean rape, but when you throw it around to mean destruction, domination... it's wrong.
Using the term "faggot" doesn't hurt gay people. Sure, it's not a nice thing to say, and you come across as a homophobic twat, but it doesn't hurt like rape does.
The author is pointing out the severity of rape and that it's not to be treated lightly, not to be used for pointless character development, but only for things that warrant it.
The author is not asking for censorship, more... consideration.

Why stop at that?
Why don't we also take races, people whose closest have been murdered, homosexuals, the crippled, retarded, etc., also into consideration?
Like I said, it's a slippery slope.
Why shouldn't it be thrown around for trivial purposes and murder should? Everyone knows what they mean and no one in their right mind thinks they're glorifying rape or murder with that.
If you do get hurt by that then I'm sorry, you should probably lock yourself up somewhere until you solve your problems and are ready to get integrated back into society.

Also, saying "faggot" doesn't make you homophobic and neither does saying "nigga" make you racist.

Before this goes on into a 12 post debate, let me explain: what the people like the author are claiming is the term 'rape' can cause tramatic wounds to open up for people who have experienced it, so people who use the word casually over the internet are assholes.

They aren't claiming that it should be censored. They just want people to think about what they're saying. There is a difference between saying that casual use of the word 'rape' is a dick-move, and saying that we should make efforts to censor people. Trust me, if they were asking for censorship I would be right there with you. However, I should point out that companies can censor your speech however they want online: your use of their service is a privilege, not a right. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, just that they can do it.

What I think you want to say is that you aren't going to stop using phrases you think are funny on the very off chance that it might offend someone. That would probably make you a dick according to the author and others, but frankly there are far worse things than being a dick who occasionally offends people. What you're saying is that you're fine with potentially being a dick if it brings you more enjoyment than constantly watching what you say, and that you can't please everyone. I'm not going to argue against that position.

However, that's different from saying that it's perfectly acceptable to use the term 'rape' casually in the public sphere, which would require a more elaborate ethical argument and would run contrary to most people's intuitions on the matter. If that's what you're trying to argue then good luck.

The author is saying that you should avoid using the term rape because it actually hurts certain people. Against this point one might argue that if you're psychologically unstable enough to actually be hurt by a word then it's really on you to avoid it, much like it is on people with peanut allergies to avoid peanuts. Especially when things like Xbox Live offer you all sorts of options to preemptively block communications. One should think that such an easily hurt person would recognize the nature of online video games and would take the necessary precautions.

That could potentially be another reason why you don't factor hurting those people into your decision whether or not to use a certain word. This is, of course, not to say that the word is okay; just that one wouldn't factor implausible scenarios into their decision to use the word, and that a person being hurt by the word is implausible because such people would likely not expose themselves to situations where it is likely to occur in the first place. (Please note that I'm not arguing this point myself, I am merely presenting it as an addendum to my previous caricature of your position.)

What I will say is this: a little common courtesy never hurt anyone. If you find offensive jokes funny, it probably wouldn't kill you to tell them within party-chat with your friends who enjoy them. Telling them in front of a bunch of complete strangers without thought as to whether you might offend someone does kinda make you a dick.

However, while casually throwing around terms like 'rape' and racial epithets might make you an insensitive asshole, I do agree with you that it doesn't necessarily make you a racist or mean that you're condoning rape. But I don't recall anyone making the argument that it does.

Using racial epithets for comedic purposes might make you racially insensitive, but it doesn't mean that you hate an entire group of people for the color of their skin, and that's what racism really is. Anyone who uses the term more loosely than that is really just watering it down. Frankly, it doesn't even make you prejudiced because you can tell a joke about stereotypes without actually believing that the stereotypes are true.

People need to realize that there are different ways in which people can be dicks, which admit to varying degrees of moral reprehensibility. Someone who tells offensive jokes is pretty low on the totem pole. In fact, I have a hard time thinking of anyone lower than that. Maybe someone who doesn't hold the door open for people, or cuts in line? Anyone who intentionally harasses someone with the intention of hurting them is doing something much worse than someone who uses the term 'rape' to casually describe a headshot in an online FPS.

Although I think it should be obvious (not saying you don't get it, but for the sake of random morons), I have the need to clarify that I don't go around spouting potentially offensive jokes to complete strangers. If I'm with complete strangers, I test the waters a bit before trying anything like that and it's not like I'm in 'offensive mode' 24/7.
Still, I will always defend the rights of people who do that, even if I think they're assholes. Sticks and stones. I have never in my life been offended over the internet. Not because I'm a 'privileged white Caucasian', but because words mean jack shit to me. I would like for people to see that stupid words are meaningless and it's better for them, and the world around them, if they make words their bitches, as one rapper would say. If you do that, words don't hold power over you anymore, and neither does someone who wants to offend / traumatize you. Iron Lightning managed to break off of that and he's a true shining example that I'm right.

I might have gone a bit overboard with the whole "saying x doesn't make you x-ist" shtick; guess I'm venting about some other stuff like this in games. Oh yeah, some of it was directed at that shitty Kotaku article that's about how saying "rape" in an online game makes you ok with rape culture.

...
I think we're pretty much on the same page so gg. Guess we're not gonna have a 12 post debate. :(

Also, I have no idea why is rape such a hot topic lately wherever I look. It's like someone up there thinks it's new to all of us.

Well, I have honestly had my fill of this pity party for the Author.

Ramzal:

Kelethor:

ReiverCorrupter:

Erm... it's kind of ironic that you asked the guy to have sympathy and at the same time criticized him for his emotional response. It's understandable that he gets pissed off when he sees in others the destructive weakness that he had to overcome himself. His criticism may seem harsh to us, but it is clearly aimed at helping that guy. I doubt you or I could possibly understand what either person went through, and I'm fairly certain we don't have a place in the conversation of how to deal with it. Plus, he apologized for the apparent insensitivity of his argument at the outset.

Yeah...to be completely honest, I didn't read every page of comments after reading the article (and didn't see the apology come up) and so when I first read Iron Lightning's post I was a little...excited. I did go back and edit my post. so hopefully that will clear things up.

I agree with Iron Lightning. Part of growing up is to take all of these things that happen to you and grow past them. Bad things happen. We have to accept them and move on. Even more, I have to ask everyone something. Stop having pity for us or anyone who has gone through this. Yes, it is terrible to happen. But we do not deserve any special treatment for the short comings in our lives. People are strong to move past this. Allow us to without thinking we are broken, or that we will suffer forever.

Mahatma Gandhi once said that: "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." People cannot build that will when they are given special treatment, or pity, or feel that we need to be picked up or even understood -just- because something happened to us. If you think about it, the average person looks at someone who has been raped like a broken mirror, that with enough tender love and care, it can be fixed. That's just not true. And in treating people who have been raped as such, you are not doing them a favor. But rather an injustice.

I do not expect free money to come to me because I am of african american blood and my ancestors were treated harshly. I expect to work for my money and rewards. I do not ask for free money for college because I am 1/16th native american and some have had their land stolen. And I do not ask to be treated like a hero because I have been to war, fought, and nearly died for whatever purpose it truly may have been, I simply ask to be treated like you--yourself would wish to be treated. Without exception, with fairness, and goodwill.

I, and many like myself are strong enough to move past the dark parts in our lives and see the light. (And no, that is not a religious statement) But people must allow others--like the Author of the article--to move past this, rather than bellow in his misery.

Rape is a word. That is all it is. Just like many other words that are hateful like a word that starts with "N". Or "S." Any you can think of. It's the action, not the word that we should be against.

I think I should make myself clear. Not everyone deals with trauma the same. Some people, Like you and Iron lightning, are able to turn yourselves into gruff survivalists who turn their horrible experiences into things they can grow from. and good on you for doing that. HOWEVER, what is good for the goose is not good for the Gander, and how you have dealt with you're trauma and past experience's is not how the author will deal with it. Gandhi said a lot of thing's, but Gandhi was never raped by another man. neither was I, and neither were you (I assume and hope) so we can't judge him for dealing with his trauma in his own way.

I find it fitting this article is published on June 25, Orwell's birthday. Why? Because to me it is clear the guts of this debate is of language, and politics. I presume most of you have heard of Orwell. But some of you may not know he wrote, with his books, articles. One of his best is "Politics and the English Language." I urge you to read it if you haven't.

I will sift out the heart of the article. "What is above all need is to let the meaning choice the word, and not the other way around." Rape has a meaning. It is bound to the ideas of violence. Not just physical violence but mental violence. It is tied to robbing power from someone, to bringing people low, to the act of turning their body against them. That's rape's meaning its context.

I have a question to people who say they don't want to use the full, bloody meaning of rape when they say it. Why are you not using a better word? There are plenty of words to mean: "I defeated you." Dominate annihilate, break, decimated, crush, and so on. I can think of two reasons you're using 'rape.' You do not use the word for it's meaning. You use it because everyone is. You find it easier for the crowd to choose your words. Or, you do want to invoke all the bloody, cruel and dehumanizing connotations of the word, but realizing that admitting to that would show you to be a monster, so you lie.

This is a debate between those who believe words have meanings. That meaning is what matters. Against those who find the thinking to choice a proper word is too hard.

"...you should say what you mean." Lewis Carroll

TAdamson:

wizzy555:

TAdamson:

But you don't go walking around telling people that you are going to "murder" them or tell jokes about murder either.

Englishman,Irishman & Scotsman in France are sentenced to death by guillotine. The Englisman puts his head on the block 1st & the executioner pulls the lever, but the blade doesn't fall. The governor says ' If this happens 3 times then by French law you walk free'. The lever is pulled twice more & still the blade doesn't fall so he was set free. The same thing happens when the Scotsman had his head on the block & he was set free. Paddy puts his head on the block, the lever is pulled , again the blade doesn't fall. Then Paddy turns round so the back of his head's on the block. The lever's pulled & the blade doesn't budge. 'Aha!!' says Paddy 'hold on! I can see what the problem is!'

Very funny.

My point was that people don't go on XBox live and tell their opponents that they are "going to murder them" or that they have "murdered them".

"Murder" gets thrown around very casually... As is to be expected when most games people are playing revolve around killing. Nobody balks at it, but it's there.

Not even picking a side, just saying you should let go of that point.

NathanS:
I find it fitting this article is published on June 25, Orwell's birthday. Why? Because to me it is clear the guts of this debate is of language, and politics. I presume most of you have heard of Orwell. But some of you may not know he wrote, with his books, articles. One of his best is "Politics and the English Language." I urge you to read it if you haven't.

I will sift out the heart of the article. "What is above all need is to let the meaning choice the word, and not the other way around." Rape has a meaning. It is bound to the ideas of violence. Not just physical violence but mental violence. It is tied to robbing power from someone, to bringing people low, to the act of turning their body against them. That's rape's meaning its context.

I have a question to people who say they don't want to use the full, bloody meaning of rape when they say it. Why are you not using a better word? There are plenty of words to mean: "I defeated you." Dominate annihilate, break, decimated, crush, and so on. I can think of two reasons you're using 'rape.' You do not use the word for it's meaning. You use it because everyone is. You find it easier for the crowd to choose your words. Or, you do want to invoke all the bloody, cruel and dehumanizing connotations of the word, but realizing that admitting to that would show you to be a monster, so you lie.

This is a debate between those who believe words have meanings. That meaning is what matters. Against those who find the thinking to choice a proper word is too hard.

"...you should say what you mean." Lewis Carroll

I'm not sure I'd be so judgemental about it, but I think the "it's a trend" thing is pretty well spot on. It certainly seems a more reasonable assumption than assuming people actually have nefarious reasons for using it.

Dumb...not evil.

Kelethor:

Ramzal:

Kelethor:

Yeah...to be completely honest, I didn't read every page of comments after reading the article (and didn't see the apology come up) and so when I first read Iron Lightning's post I was a little...excited. I did go back and edit my post. so hopefully that will clear things up.

I agree with Iron Lightning. Part of growing up is to take all of these things that happen to you and grow past them. Bad things happen. We have to accept them and move on. Even more, I have to ask everyone something. Stop having pity for us or anyone who has gone through this. Yes, it is terrible to happen. But we do not deserve any special treatment for the short comings in our lives. People are strong to move past this. Allow us to without thinking we are broken, or that we will suffer forever.

Mahatma Gandhi once said that: "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." People cannot build that will when they are given special treatment, or pity, or feel that we need to be picked up or even understood -just- because something happened to us. If you think about it, the average person looks at someone who has been raped like a broken mirror, that with enough tender love and care, it can be fixed. That's just not true. And in treating people who have been raped as such, you are not doing them a favor. But rather an injustice.

I do not expect free money to come to me because I am of african american blood and my ancestors were treated harshly. I expect to work for my money and rewards. I do not ask for free money for college because I am 1/16th native american and some have had their land stolen. And I do not ask to be treated like a hero because I have been to war, fought, and nearly died for whatever purpose it truly may have been, I simply ask to be treated like you--yourself would wish to be treated. Without exception, with fairness, and goodwill.

I, and many like myself are strong enough to move past the dark parts in our lives and see the light. (And no, that is not a religious statement) But people must allow others--like the Author of the article--to move past this, rather than bellow in his misery.

Rape is a word. That is all it is. Just like many other words that are hateful like a word that starts with "N". Or "S." Any you can think of. It's the action, not the word that we should be against.

I think I should make myself clear. Not everyone deals with trauma the same. Some people, Like you and Iron lightning, are able to turn yourselves into gruff survivalists who turn their horrible experiences into things they can grow from. and good on you for doing that. HOWEVER, what is good for the goose is not good for the Gander, and how you have dealt with you're trauma and past experience's is not how the author will deal with it. Gandhi said a lot of thing's, but Gandhi was never raped by another man. neither was I, and neither were you (I assume and hope) so we can't judge him for dealing with his trauma in his own way.

It's not about becoming a "gruff survivalist" It's about growing. Bad things happen in life, every day. And not enough dry heaving over toilets, or people saying "I'm so sorry" can fix that. It is up the individual. Do you wish to know why I find the author a coward? What he is typing is an attempt for attention. He is literally living -in- his poor history rather living his life. I've had more than enough drunk nights on my couch as I wake up to an angry wife in the morning to finally realize the difference.

Honestly, any short comings in my life are just that. Short comings. I've taken being raped at a young age by my own father as nothing more than a bone that was broken. It hurt for awhile, but it healed with time. I found that the more people who told me "I am so sorry that happened to you.." or "You must be going through such a terrible time..." or my favorite "It's not your fault." I found myself sinking -deeper- into the depression of the event because those statements -make- you feel like you were a victim.

Me and Iron are not a rare type of people this happens to. We're just people who decided that enough is enough. I know plenty of other people that this has happened to. Those extremely close to me as well, women and men alike. And for the majority the women I know have taken it much better than I thought. Two in which shrugged when I brought up this subject and said "People need to put their big girl panties on and learn to suck it up. Bad stuff happens to everyone."

These people live their lives without triggers, frequent nightmares or crying fits/gaining weight. That in itself is strength. True strength. Weakness in yourself calls for attention like the Author does. Things happen. But what truly---TRULY upsets me is the fact that the Author is in a position that he is speaking for -everyone- who has gone through this or that all of us---even a majority of us react from being raped as he does. Which is simply not true.

You want to know what the real monstrosity of rape comes from? The people who are killed before, during or after the fact. They never had a CHANCE to get stronger, or move past it because that chance was stolen from them. And it happens all over the world, Africa, Korea, Europe, even in the United States does this occur. But you want to feel sorry for someone who is still alive and has a chance to move past this issue when there are people who were killed just so they could be -easier- to rape?

I know exactly what the Author has been through. But I have no sympathy for him. Or care. How he deals with that issue now is my greatest nightmare for anything that has ever traumatized me, to lay battered, beaten and DEFEATED by something that is not physical anymore but rather as loose, and hanging there like a dream--the past. To live is to acknowledge the past, live in the present to build for the future.

His reaction and explanations come from nothing but the kind of person who has been traumatized but chooses to have it hold him back. He is strong enough to move past it. He is. Anyone is, but this is not subject of "Everyone deals about it differently" but rather him not dealing with it at all. I've needed no pills, some sessions with a therapist when I was younger, and no pity to get past it. It's a matter of seeing what happened to you before as the past and not allow it to define you.

The author has chosen for it to define him. I will not. Now do you wish to lecture me again on the subject of how to deal with being raped by a man (My own father no less), when I have already stated that I have been previously? I do not need your assumptions or your hope as it has already happened. And honestly...so what that it has.

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