The R Word

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
 

Gotta love the escapist comunity, always competing to see who can be the smuggest, most pretentious poster ever.
Look guys, I think the point that some of the people here are trying to make is that: Just because some people are offended or troubled by some word, doesnt mean it should never be used. Cause if we did that we wouldnt be able to say anything.

LookAtYouHacker:

Ramzal:

Kelethor:

Yeah...to be completely honest, I didn't read every page of comments after reading the article (and didn't see the apology come up) and so when I first read Iron Lightning's post I was a little...excited. I did go back and edit my post. so hopefully that will clear things up.

I agree with Iron Lightning. Part of growing up is to take all of these things that happen to you and grow past them. Bad things happen. We have to accept them and move on. Even more, I have to ask everyone something. Stop having pity for us or anyone who has gone through this. Yes, it is terrible to happen. But we do not deserve any special treatment for the short comings in our lives. People are strong to move past this. Allow us to without thinking we are broken, or that we will suffer forever.

Whether or not you are a rape victim, that doesn't justify your harsh criticisms. Substantiality of rape and its implications varies from person to person...not all are identical to yours.

Allow me to say that I do not think the Author needs you to champion his cause or words. He's already responded to me about my responses. I stand by them, and I stand by my words. Needless to say, that no, no ones is identical. However, pain is pain. It's something that can be over come. It's not easy but it can be done. I don't treat rape as more worse than the majority of things in this world.

And honestly, the Author himself has said he made some progress. If that is true or not is a situation with his life, however in the context of the article, it doesn't show---at all that he has. In reading it, it comes off as someone still constantly haunted from triggers almost every day. And honestly, if that were the case, would you think that "Standing up for him" would help? No, that only builds a dependency on the attendance of outside help and should that help not be around it can lead to dangerous outcomes.

But you know what? I have a different opinion than the majority of people who just give him a pat on the back and a "I am so sorry for you" even though they A) Don't know him. Or B) Look at the other side of the fence and notice that there are other ways to look at the situation by people it happened to. Or my favorite C) "I never knew it was like that... You've given me a lot to think of"

Inspiring others to think is great. A rare thing to accomplish even. But do you mean to tell me that our world is so pampering these days that no one knows what it's like to have something horrible happen to them? Or the fact that we put such large horse blinders on that people won't look into a subject where bad things happen to people, but have an "Eye opening" experience when they read an extremely pathos driven article about one owns experience with it, and taking that one persons experience with it as everyone else who has gone through with it?

You say that it's an experience that differs, and it's true. It does. But honestly, people who don't have these thing happen to them--read something like this article and use it as a baseline as how the average person who's been raped is, because they're too busy to take in an opinion that differs, or research it, or too busy trying to empathize with a situation that they don't even begin to understand and just take the first thing they read as concrete.

So honestly, how I see an article that is written in a way that will be taken under a general sense is my own business, not yours.

axlryder:

LookAtYouHacker:

axlryder:

first of all, singling out woman specifically makes me take your view less seriously, as both men and woman can be and are raped.

Secondly, there's an enormous range of circumstances under which "rape" can occur. It can be an offense that leaves no significant emotional scars on the victim (they were drunk and don't even remember it happening), or result trauma deep enough to warrant suicide or insanity. People's reaction to rape is simply an extension of the trauma of rape. That still doesn't make it special. If a child witnesses his parent's torturous murder, not only will he have to live with that trauma, but he will then be an orphan, where is fate could be very grim in the wrong circumstances (try not to look at this from a first world perspective). I'm not saying victim blaming is okay or not a problem, simply that it doesn't suddenly elevate rape into some special level of awfulness to me.

thirdly, I never said it wasn't traumatic (I never even implied it). I merely said it wasn't more traumatic that the other atrocious things that happen to people around the world on a daily basis or "special" to me in some regard. Rape is shitty. So are a lot of other things. To even feel the need to make the points you made was a presumptuous inclination and a wasteful one. Wasteful of both my and your time.

Overall, I'm a little confused. Perhaps you should have been more specific in what you desired? You requested to know why others think rape is uniquely traumatising, so I humbly gave you an individualistic answer solely based on that description.

I know both men and women can be raped. I merely pointed out that there are societal suggestions when a woman is being raped by a man.

I know there's an enormous range of circumstances under which "rape" can occur, and I wonder why you didn't think of that when you wrote your aforementioned comment on this article.

I never said rape was "special"... but then (snort) this isn't a competition. Both are traumatizing, that's what's important... obviously. However, I do believe rape is more consequential/presents more implications.

I never said you didn't understand why rape was traumatic.

The suggestion that this was a waste of both of our time came across as a needless addition, so I'll pretend I didn't read that to avoid further bewilderment.

I didn't request people to explain anything to me. Saying "I fail to see" wasn't meant to be an invitation for someone to explain their reasoning. It can be used rhetorically (as evinced by the rest of my statement that shows I'd already drawn a conclusion on the matter).

There are obviously distinct societal implications when a man is raped by a woman, too. They're not good ones either. Why do you think men are so unwilling to come forward when they've been victims of sexual abuse? but I guess you didn't think that was worth mentioning. Also, what do you mean "I should have considered that", in regards to the range of circumstances? I made my whole point in consideration OF that fact. I'm sorry I had to spell that out for you. Rape can be very bad, yes, but people often cite examples of "rape" and why it's so prevalent and then instantly liken it to this brutalizing that you pointed out. However, date rape is by far the most common type of rape and doesn't often fit that brutal profile. I also often see people act as though the effects of murder or attempted murder is something that can be brushed off or some kind of rare thing that can be marginalized. Where I come from, murder is rather common and I'm not going to presume that date rape is worse than some of the things people I've known (and even I myself) have gone through. Hell, I've known adult men who killed themselves over some of the crap that happened to them. I've known of woman who had their unborn child stabbed and killed.

Of course there's the purported overall societal implications of rape and the idea that flippant use of the word/concept perpetuates it in our culture and that its use is a reminder/confirmation of woman's objectification in our culture, yadda yadda. I'm aware of these ideas, but that still doesn't change my view on rape. I think it just means there's a problem with our culture. I'd also argue that all the violence in our culture is also a problem and might actually perpetuate violence, but nobody seems to care about that. Though, I don't think that should result in censorship, just as I also don't think our culture's problems with rape are any kind of justification to keep media involving rape out of the general adult public's hands and I don't believe people should colloquially use the term rape/murder/torture/etc. in a video game or tell violent jokes to people they aren't familiar with. So my position on rape is about the same as my position on murder or torture. Just because other idiots might find various uses of the concept to be some kind of validation for their practice of sexism/rape (a potentiality that I'm somewhat skeptical of) it doesn't change my view on the general idea of rape. It just makes me think they're idiots.

Ultimately I'm really not trying to argue what is more consequential. Of course, initially I hadn't even brought up its consequence, which is another issue entirely that I touched on above. Regardless, I think there are plenty of things in this world just as bad as rape (in all its various forms). I'm not going to treat the idea of it with a special amount of care in that regard (as I said before). We agree to disagree.

Also, this was a waste of both of our time. You can pretend not to have read it, but you still did. I'd recommend not responding though, as this will most likely devolve into bickering.

Before we part, I DO actually have a lot to say about men who are raped to. Really, I do. I'm aware both can have negative societal implications, and I dreaded you would take notice of my reluctance to add that :) I also agree to disagree. It's clear to me that despite you don't see rape as anything special pertaining to traumatisation, you're still well-aware of why it deserves to be labelled so, so fair enough.

Thank you for at least keeping your comments comparatively formal and explanatory.

Ramzal:

LookAtYouHacker:

Ramzal:

I agree with Iron Lightning. Part of growing up is to take all of these things that happen to you and grow past them. Bad things happen. We have to accept them and move on. Even more, I have to ask everyone something. Stop having pity for us or anyone who has gone through this. Yes, it is terrible to happen. But we do not deserve any special treatment for the short comings in our lives. People are strong to move past this. Allow us to without thinking we are broken, or that we will suffer forever.

Whether or not you are a rape victim, that doesn't justify your harsh criticisms. Substantiality of rape and its implications varies from person to person...not all are identical to yours.

Allow me to say that I do not think the Author needs you to champion his cause or words. He's already responded to me about my responses. I stand by them, and I stand by my words. Needless to say, that no, no ones is identical. However, pain is pain. It's something that can be over come. It's not easy but it can be done. I don't treat rape as more worse than the majority of things in this world.

And honestly, the Author himself has said he made some progress. If that is true or not is a situation with his life, however in the context of the article, it doesn't show---at all that he has. In reading it, it comes off as someone still constantly haunted from triggers almost every day. And honestly, if that were the case, would you think that "Standing up for him" would help? No, that only builds a dependency on the attendance of outside help and should that help not be around it can lead to dangerous outcomes.

But you know what? I have a different opinion than the majority of people who just give him a pat on the back and a "I am so sorry for you" even though they A) Don't know him. Or B) Look at the other side of the fence and notice that there are other ways to look at the situation by people it happened to. Or my favorite C) "I never knew it was like that... You've given me a lot to think of"

Inspiring others to think is great. A rare thing to accomplish even. But do you mean to tell me that our world is so pampering these days that no one knows what it's like to have something horrible happen to them? Or the fact that we put such large horse blinders on that people won't look into a subject where bad things happen to people, but have an "Eye opening" experience when they read an extremely pathos driven article about one owns experience with it, and taking that one persons experience with it as everyone else who has gone through with it?

You say that it's an experience that differs, and it's true. It does. But honestly, people who don't have these thing happen to them--read something like this article and use it as a baseline as how the average person who's been raped is, because they're too busy to take in an opinion that differs, or research it, or too busy trying to empathize with a situation that they don't even begin to understand and just take the first thing they read as concrete.

So honestly, how I see an article that is written in a way that will be taken under a general sense is my own business, not yours.

Uh-uh, my sister was raped and committed suicide (I know I don't deserve any sympathy,) so I do feel like I have "some" abstract cause to speak out. We would often discuss her experience before she died. I don't see myself as his "knight in shining armour," sorry if I came across like that.

Elithraradril:
You're so wrong I even don't know where to begin explaining. If you have no proof that this particular man committed the crime, you have no right to arrest him at all. Without proof you have no warrant, no case, no trial.

If you already had proof, there would be no need for a trial at all, it would be a technicality..

What you need is evidence. Testimony is evidence, if the police feel the testimony is strong enough, they are perfectly within their rights to request a trial.

It is not the job of the police to establish guilt. I don't know what fucked up police state you live in or want to live in, but that's actually a very good thing for civil liberties.

Elithraradril:
Or ...you want to create a country where you can put someone in jail only because, one person said he's a rapist?

You already live in one. You always have, and it goes for any violent crime.

If I stab myself and claim someone else did it, the police don't need to "proove" it, they just need to gather enough evidence to make a trial possible. Unless evidence comes up showing that I self-inflicted the injuries, the person I accuse will be put in custody. Because they may have stabbed someone.

The trial will then determine guilt.

That is why it is a very serious crime to accuse someone of a crime they didn't commit. The system acknowledges that it can cause significant harm and thus it carries a very heavy penalty, just like stabbing someone. As I said, what more do you want? Why do you want the rules to be bent to ensure that this one pretty uncommon crime will never happen?

Elithraradril:
Guy will spend months behind bars, just because you believe victim more than him?

It is not about who you believe. The fact that you've reduced it to this is pathetic "team blue" bullshit.

Police work is not even meant to factor in who you personally believe. There is a standard procedure, and if there is evidence that a crime occurred and the person accused cannot demonstrate that they did not commit such a crime there is reason enough to send them to court.

Being presumed innocent does not mean you cannot be placed in custody. If that were the case, noone would ever be placed in custody.

Elithraradril:
No, there isn't if you have no DNA match etc.. You still have nothing pointing Mr X except word of Ms Y.

A DNA match doesn't "prove" anything either. It can strongly evidence that you have lied if you claim to have had no contact with the victim, but if you had actually raped an adult you shouldn't be claiming that anyway - not when it's so easy to get off by simply attacking your victims character, sexual history or implied sexual preferences.

Again, this is just evidence. The police are not there to speculate about evidence, just to gather it and prepare it for trial.

Elithraradril:
I'm sorry, but this is exactly why rape is such difficult case: because in many cases you just can't proof anything. That's why prevention is far more important than searching for court room solution.

What "prevention" would you suggest?

I have a feeling this is going to be either hilariously naive, or is going to make me want to kill someone. Will be interesting to find out which.

ReiverCorrupter:

LookAtYouHacker:

ReiverCorrupter:

Erm... it's kind of ironic that you asked the guy to have sympathy and at the same time criticized him for his emotional response. It's understandable that he gets pissed off when he sees in others the destructive weakness that he had to overcome himself. His criticism may seem harsh to us, but it is clearly aimed at helping that guy. I doubt you or I could possibly understand what either person went through, and I'm fairly certain we don't have a place in the conversation of how to deal with it. Plus, he apologized for the apparent insensitivity of his argument at the outset.

It's also understandable someone would get pissed off at possibly the most potent display of selfishness, surreptitious cowardice and in-humanity I've ever witnessed in text. Feel free to utilize my insults/following descriptions of my actions against me, but nearly all objects in my living room are in pieces. I'm not joking, It made me that angry.

It could be to do with the fact my sister was raped and committed suicide, but somehow I also believe it to be in pertinence with my knowledge.

Whether or not he/she is a rape victim, that doesn't justify his/her criticisms. Substantiality of rape and its implications varies from person to person...not all are identical.

As for your claim of "destructive weakness," you're only reducing yourself to his/her level.

The concept of weakness in accordance to a traumatising situation, is a condition that's only "viable" in a still menially operational mindset. Rape (depending on the harshness) can potentially destroy the functionality of mind itself... therefore the cowardly concept of weakness isn't always applicable.

My comment wasn't directed at you, but if you're demanding an apology I'll give you one anyway. I'm sorry that my comment emotionally disturbed you. That was not my intention. If that isn't enough then for God's sake I suggest that you just ignore the rest of this post and forget you ever read my post in the first place. I don't want any furniture destroyed on my account.

My anger was directed at the comment you responded to, not you.

Ramzal:
Bad things happen. We have to accept them and move on.

Look, I'm not questioning whether you personally have moved on, or that moving on is an admirable thing. I'm sure you have and it obviously is.

Neither am I trying to claim that rape is actually particularly bad. I think the desire to make it particularly bad is actually quite a destructive one. I get really annoyed when I see people talking about how rape victims are all dead inside and stuff like that, because it strikes me as invalidation. It takes away people's ability to talk about their own lives and replaces it with something which people seem to need to believe. I think your point about scars is actually quite insightful. Sure, you can't get rid of them, but you can learn to minimize their effect on your life.

However, I have a friend, actually my closest and dearest friend, who went through something very similar to you. Admittedly, she was a lot younger when it happened and was in an environment where it was constantly happening to other people as well, so maybe it's not really the same, but suffice to say she's never completely going to get better. Even medical professionals have advised her not to seek treatment, because it would just make her worse. She copes with it about as well as she can, and most days it's not noticeable that there's anything wrong, but that's largely because she's learned to effectively hide the points where it's not going so well.

Again, I don't want to pretend that there's no way things will get better for anyone. That's a lie, and a hurtful and destructive lie, trauma is something which most people learn to cope with, heck I was diagnosed with PTSD once so I know that things can get better. But you can't make it an imperative to just "get over it", because I don't think that's any less hurtful or any less destructive. I don't think it's "weak" to have ongoing problems, I don't even think it's "weak" to kill yourself, although it's tragic to do so because you assume nothing will ever get better.

I think you're demanding a lot from other people just because you yourself have managed it, and that upsets me, because I know that the strongest, most pragmatic person I know, the person I turn to when I'm upset or anxious or irrational, couldn't completely get over this. That's not because it's rape and rape is special, but because any kind of trauma doesn't always just go away if you have the willpower or are a tough enough person.

Also, is it really that hard to believe that just because something is a lie, or an exaggeration, that people wouldn't come to believe it and identify with it? I think you've been way too harsh on the author of this article. Sure, I disagreed with some of he was saying, but I think trying to claim that there's no way the author ever experienced what they said they did is pretty horrible, actually. I've met plenty of people who I know very well have been through real traumatic experiences, including rape actually, who honestly believe and feel like it changed them permanently as a person. Just because that doesn't match your experience, why assume it's not something anyone could feel?

It just.. strikes me as something you don't do. If someone reports a traumatic experience, why would you question whether they're lying based purely on the emotional coherence of their account? If they are lying, you're not going to "catch them out" based on such vague evidence. If they're not, you're just going to make them feel awful. It's not worth it, right?

LookAtYouHacker:

axlryder:

LookAtYouHacker:

Overall, I'm a little confused. Perhaps you should have been more specific in what you desired? You requested to know why others think rape is uniquely traumatising, so I humbly gave you an individualistic answer solely based on that description.

I know both men and women can be raped. I merely pointed out that there are societal suggestions when a woman is being raped by a man.

I know there's an enormous range of circumstances under which "rape" can occur, and I wonder why you didn't think of that when you wrote your aforementioned comment on this article.

I never said rape was "special"... but then (snort) this isn't a competition. Both are traumatizing, that's what's important... obviously. However, I do believe rape is more consequential/presents more implications.

I never said you didn't understand why rape was traumatic.

The suggestion that this was a waste of both of our time came across as a needless addition, so I'll pretend I didn't read that to avoid further bewilderment.

I didn't request people to explain anything to me. Saying "I fail to see" wasn't meant to be an invitation for someone to explain their reasoning. It can be used rhetorically (as evinced by the rest of my statement that shows I'd already drawn a conclusion on the matter).

There are obviously distinct societal implications when a man is raped by a woman, too. They're not good ones either. Why do you think men are so unwilling to come forward when they've been victims of sexual abuse? but I guess you didn't think that was worth mentioning. Also, what do you mean "I should have considered that", in regards to the range of circumstances? I made my whole point in consideration OF that fact. I'm sorry I had to spell that out for you. Rape can be very bad, yes, but people often cite examples of "rape" and why it's so prevalent and then instantly liken it to this brutalizing that you pointed out. However, date rape is by far the most common type of rape and doesn't often fit that brutal profile. I also often see people act as though the effects of murder or attempted murder is something that can be brushed off or some kind of rare thing that can be marginalized. Where I come from, murder is rather common and I'm not going to presume that date rape is worse than some of the things people I've known (and even I myself) have gone through. Hell, I've known adult men who killed themselves over some of the crap that happened to them. I've known of woman who had their unborn child stabbed and killed.

Of course there's the purported overall societal implications of rape and the idea that flippant use of the word/concept perpetuates it in our culture and that its use is a reminder/confirmation of woman's objectification in our culture, yadda yadda. I'm aware of these ideas, but that still doesn't change my view on rape. I think it just means there's a problem with our culture. I'd also argue that all the violence in our culture is also a problem and might actually perpetuate violence, but nobody seems to care about that. Though, I don't think that should result in censorship, just as I also don't think our culture's problems with rape are any kind of justification to keep media involving rape out of the general adult public's hands and I don't believe people should colloquially use the term rape/murder/torture/etc. in a video game or tell violent jokes to people they aren't familiar with. So my position on rape is about the same as my position on murder or torture. Just because other idiots might find various uses of the concept to be some kind of validation for their practice of sexism/rape (a potentiality that I'm somewhat skeptical of) it doesn't change my view on the general idea of rape. It just makes me think they're idiots.

Ultimately I'm really not trying to argue what is more consequential. Of course, initially I hadn't even brought up its consequence, which is another issue entirely that I touched on above. Regardless, I think there are plenty of things in this world just as bad as rape (in all its various forms). I'm not going to treat the idea of it with a special amount of care in that regard (as I said before). We agree to disagree.

Also, this was a waste of both of our time. You can pretend not to have read it, but you still did. I'd recommend not responding though, as this will most likely devolve into bickering.

Before we part, I DO actually have a lot to say about men who are raped to. Really, I do. I'm aware both can have negative societal implications, and I dreaded you would take notice of my reluctance to add that :) I also agree to disagree. It's clear to me that despite you don't see rape as anything special pertaining to traumatisation, you're still well-aware of why it deserves to be labelled so, so fair enough.

Thank you for at least keeping your comments comparatively formal and explanatory.

It doesn't deserve to been seen as anything special. That was the point from the beginning. It's no worse than what torture/murder/attempted murder/etc. can be. Please don't make such implicit presumptions about what I'm "aware" of, especially when they're false.

Adiós

evilthecat:

Ramzal:
Bad things happen. We have to accept them and move on.

Look, I'm not questioning whether you personally have moved on, or that moving on is an admirable thing. I'm sure you have and it obviously is.

Neither am I trying to claim that rape is actually particularly bad. I think the desire to make it particularly bad is actually quite a destructive one. I get really annoyed when I see people talking about how rape victims are all dead inside and stuff like that, because it strikes me as invalidation. It takes away people's ability to talk about their own lives and replaces it with something which people seem to need to believe. I think your point about scars is actually quite insightful. Sure, you can't get rid of them, but you can learn to minimize their effect on your life.

However, I have a friend, actually my closest and dearest friend, who went through something very similar to you. Admittedly, she was a lot younger when it happened and was in an environment where it was constantly happening to other people as well, so maybe it's not really the same, but suffice to say she's never completely going to get better. Even medical professionals have advised her not to seek treatment, because it would just make her worse. She copes with it about as well as she can, and most days it's not noticeable that there's anything wrong, but that's largely because she's learned to effectively hide the points where it's not going so well.

Again, I don't want to pretend that there's no way things will get better for anyone. That's a lie, and a hurtful and destructive lie, trauma is something which most people learn to cope with, heck I was diagnosed with PTSD once so I know that things can get better. But you can't make it an imperative to just "get over it", because I don't think that's any less hurtful or any less destructive. I don't think it's "weak" to have ongoing problems, I don't even think it's "weak" to kill yourself, although it's tragic to do so because you assume nothing will ever get better.

I think you're demanding a lot from other people just because you yourself have managed it, and that upsets me, because I know that the strongest, most pragmatic person I know, the person I turn to when I'm upset or anxious or irrational, couldn't completely get over this. That's not because it's rape and rape is special, but because any kind of trauma doesn't always just go away if you have the willpower or are a tough enough person.

Also, is it really that hard to believe that just because something is a lie, or an exaggeration, that people wouldn't come to believe it and identify with it? I think you've been way too harsh on the author of this article. Sure, I disagreed with some of he was saying, but I think trying to claim that there's no way the author ever experienced what they said they did is pretty horrible, actually. I've met plenty of people who I know very well have been through real traumatic experiences, including rape actually, who honestly believe and feel like it changed them permanently as a person. Just because that doesn't match your experience, why assume it's not something anyone could feel?

It just.. strikes me as something you don't do. If someone reports a traumatic experience, why would you question whether they're lying based purely on the emotional coherence of their account? If they are lying, you're not going to "catch them out" based on such vague evidence. If they're not, you're just going to make them feel awful. It's not worth it, right?

You do notice how I said---several times that it takes time and effort to move past something, right? How I said it's not easy and that it takes time and effort? I kind of getting tired of repeating myself.

Ramzal:
You do notice how I said---several times that it takes time and effort to move past something, right? How I said it's not easy and that it takes time and effort? I kind of getting tired of repeating myself.

That's not the point. Time and effort isn't always enough.

My own psychiatrist once told me that people used to think of the human mind in the way you'd think of a car engine. If something is wrong, you'd go in, find the defective part and try to fix it. The truth is, that can't always be done, and when it can't it's not a personal failing, it's not a lack of time or effort, because no amount of time and effort will fix some things.

This doesn't mean there's nothing you can do, or that nothing will ever get better, but sometimes things don't get better because you've got over it, they get better because you've learned to function socially in spite of it, and actually that's a big part of getting better. Again, the idea that everyone just has an imperative to "get over it" is really quite a hurtful thing to hear.

To make it clear once again, I'm glad you got over it, and I wasn't saying that it was easy for you or playing down the real difficulty you must have gone through. It's truly admirable. But if you're genuinely over it, you shouldn't need it to be possible for everyone else to do the same.

Because sometimes it's not. Sometimes the time and effort which worked for you isn't enough. That doesn't lessen or invalidate your experience, neither does it mean that anyone who isn't "getting over it" is weak or isn't trying hard enough. We're talking about the subjective experience of trauma, we're talking about the mechanisms through which the human mind breaks down and represses experiences.

We would be very simple people if we could reduce these processes to linear rules about how much time has past or how hard someone is trying. Time helps, but it doesn't help everyone in the same way. Effort helps (most of the time) but it doesn't help everyone in the same way. Ultimately, the fact that these things help does not mean that everyone can reach the standard you are asking them to, or that they are somehow weak or lazy or, god forbid, lying by not doing so.

I apologise for intervening in this discussion, the last thing I want to do is to tell you I understand how you feel or reduce your experiences to vague principles, but the fact remains that that's exactly what you're doing to other people.

evilthecat:

Ramzal:
You do notice how I said---several times that it takes time and effort to move past something, right? How I said it's not easy and that it takes time and effort? I kind of getting tired of repeating myself.

That's not the point. Time and effort isn't always enough.

My own psychiatrist once told me that people used to think of the human mind in the way you'd think of a car engine. If something is wrong, you'd go in, find the defective part and try to fix it. The truth is, that can't always be done, and when it can't it's not a personal failing, it's not a lack of time or effort, because no amount of time and effort will fix some things.

This doesn't mean there's nothing you can do, or that nothing will ever get better, but sometimes things don't get better because you've got over it, they get better because you've learned to function socially in spite of it, and actually that's a big part of getting better. Again, the idea that everyone just has an imperative to "get over it" is really quite a hurtful thing to hear.

To make it clear once again, I'm glad you got over it, and I wasn't saying that it was easy for you or playing down the real difficulty you must have gone through. It's truly admirable. But if you're genuinely over it, you shouldn't need it to be possible for everyone else to do the same.

Because sometimes it's not. Sometimes the time and effort which worked for you isn't enough. That doesn't lessen or invalidate your experience, neither does it mean that anyone who isn't "getting over it" is weak or isn't trying hard enough. We're talking about the subjective experience of trauma, we're talking about the mechanisms through which the human mind breaks down and represses experiences.

We would be very simple people if we could reduce these processes to linear rules about how much time has past or how hard someone is trying. Time helps, but it doesn't help everyone in the same way. Effort helps (most of the time) but it doesn't help everyone in the same way. Ultimately, the fact that these things help does not mean that everyone can reach the standard you are asking them to, or that they are somehow weak or lazy or, god forbid, lying by not doing so.

I apologise for intervening in this discussion, the last thing I want to do is to tell you I understand how you feel or reduce your experiences to vague principles, but the fact remains that that's exactly what you're doing to other people.

It's no biggie. I get your point and your point of view. It's understandable.

axlryder:

LookAtYouHacker:

axlryder:

I didn't request people to explain anything to me. Saying "I fail to see" wasn't meant to be an invitation for someone to explain their reasoning. It can be used rhetorically (as evinced by the rest of my statement that shows I'd already drawn a conclusion on the matter).

There are obviously distinct societal implications when a man is raped by a woman, too. They're not good ones either. Why do you think men are so unwilling to come forward when they've been victims of sexual abuse? but I guess you didn't think that was worth mentioning. Also, what do you mean "I should have considered that", in regards to the range of circumstances? I made my whole point in consideration OF that fact. I'm sorry I had to spell that out for you. Rape can be very bad, yes, but people often cite examples of "rape" and why it's so prevalent and then instantly liken it to this brutalizing that you pointed out. However, date rape is by far the most common type of rape and doesn't often fit that brutal profile. I also often see people act as though the effects of murder or attempted murder is something that can be brushed off or some kind of rare thing that can be marginalized. Where I come from, murder is rather common and I'm not going to presume that date rape is worse than some of the things people I've known (and even I myself) have gone through. Hell, I've known adult men who killed themselves over some of the crap that happened to them. I've known of woman who had their unborn child stabbed and killed.

Of course there's the purported overall societal implications of rape and the idea that flippant use of the word/concept perpetuates it in our culture and that its use is a reminder/confirmation of woman's objectification in our culture, yadda yadda. I'm aware of these ideas, but that still doesn't change my view on rape. I think it just means there's a problem with our culture. I'd also argue that all the violence in our culture is also a problem and might actually perpetuate violence, but nobody seems to care about that. Though, I don't think that should result in censorship, just as I also don't think our culture's problems with rape are any kind of justification to keep media involving rape out of the general adult public's hands and I don't believe people should colloquially use the term rape/murder/torture/etc. in a video game or tell violent jokes to people they aren't familiar with. So my position on rape is about the same as my position on murder or torture. Just because other idiots might find various uses of the concept to be some kind of validation for their practice of sexism/rape (a potentiality that I'm somewhat skeptical of) it doesn't change my view on the general idea of rape. It just makes me think they're idiots.

Ultimately I'm really not trying to argue what is more consequential. Of course, initially I hadn't even brought up its consequence, which is another issue entirely that I touched on above. Regardless, I think there are plenty of things in this world just as bad as rape (in all its various forms). I'm not going to treat the idea of it with a special amount of care in that regard (as I said before). We agree to disagree.

Also, this was a waste of both of our time. You can pretend not to have read it, but you still did. I'd recommend not responding though, as this will most likely devolve into bickering.

Before we part, I DO actually have a lot to say about men who are raped to. Really, I do. I'm aware both can have negative societal implications, and I dreaded you would take notice of my reluctance to add that :) I also agree to disagree. It's clear to me that despite you don't see rape as anything special pertaining to traumatisation, you're still well-aware of why it deserves to be labelled so, so fair enough.

Thank you for at least keeping your comments comparatively formal and explanatory.

It doesn't deserve to been seen as anything special. That was the point from the beginning. It's no worse than what torture/murder/attempted murder/etc. can be. Please don't make such implicit presumptions about what I'm "aware" of, especially when they're false.

Adiós

Oh for goodness sakes, people seem to misinterpret everything I say... I meant you're still well-aware of why it deserves to be labelled as traumatizing, not special. Not that I don't still see it as something special pertaining to the implications, though.

Anyway, goodbye.

My girlfriend is a rape victim.

It's not something to take lightly as it turns out.

Might as well throw a celebration party whenever we kiss. But don't wanna break up with her over that, since that's a pretty low blow. But I'd also like to actually have an intimate relationship. So it can screw some stuff up.

Wow, just wow. I read this at work and actually started crying. I really hope EVERYONE reads this because it is just perfect. I've never seen this issue handled in such an insightful and personal way. Whoever you are, you are amazing. Thank-you for having the courage to share this.

language barrier here too. sorry for that, hope its somewthat understandable..

darji:

If you are scared of getting in such a trashtalk dont use voicechat with strangers.[...]Maybe even try to report this guy if you are really offended by this but than just move on.

I ask myself why is it so hard for some people to behave themselves t the Internet? why dont they ask them self:would i, for myself scream this in a football or _____[insert competetive sport here]match to my opponents (teamspeek etc) or would i say this to a stranger if he asked me what time it is or which way to go`?

and if the answer is no, why then cant these people shut the fukk up? i mean i dont get it? whats the reason to act like this? i never felt the urge to, i swear a lot while playing but at npcs or at myself for having a brainfart or something like that..

i don't expect all over happiness and flowers and pink glittering twinkle twinkle.. i ask for normal, usual behavior.. why is this so hard? i just don't get it..i mean, for the lulz?
but which kind of human beings likes it to humiliate, to spam, so sexually harass and to swear on other people? what kind of person does like it to tell some guys or girls that they are worthless and should die from AIDS or cancer or get raped? because i cant undestand this..

what kind of people are likely to approve sexual harassment and threatening people with death or violence?
and why is this considered normal? i mean, just because something shitty occurs, it isnt justified... just because some nazis in my country like to kill or "just" to beat the crap out of people of coulour, of leftist, muslims jewes or whatever they see and dont like..
it isnt okay just because so much people witness it on a daily base to become numb or to fear thjat they receive the same treatment (and this goes for online-harassment as well..)... and it isn't okay to say-then dont go to jamel-this is blame the victim. i think we shuld blame people who think its okay or funny to behave like the never had any kind of education and who think theatening people is a funny thing to do because they find it normal, because they dont fear ist and because of that nobody has.. its a sad kind of egoism..

and for me as a woman-i like to play online but i dont like to be harassed just because i have 2 x chromosomes and all that comes along with that. i dont want to mute my mic or choose a gamertag which is gender neutral because so much dumfks think its funny to molest me-games should be fun but the fund ends if you annoyed and trolled on a daily rate only because you have tits..

and i think this syndrom is a part of the same illness..

It is LUNACY that I know more women who have been sexually assaulted than not (I know the writer of this article is male, but I guess fortunately I don't know a single male who has been the victim of such an assault. Hurray?) and even MORE psychotic that the first assumption I hear from SO many people (men AND women!!!) is that it was consensual sex that she later regretted. And that was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard until I heard the argument that not sexually assaulting people, and not having a discussion perhaps about WHY this is so prevalent in our supposedly civilized society, is pushing an agenda.

My first boyfriend was raped by a man. And the problem is that he mentioned that almost everyone he talked about said something shitty like- "Its your fault, you could have fought him"(You pussy, you deserve to being hurt and raped? what is this shit? why are people thinking and really believing this?).. jeah, fight a walking muscular hulk while you are a 17 jear old drunken boy who thought it would be okay to sleep out his drunk at a friends home an not thinking about being raped by this guy..

bleh

If I see the word "eggshells" one more time I'm gonna poop my pants.

Probably the most interesting article I've ever read on the Escapist.

I think this is exactly how we should have handled this discussion a long time ago. Everyone's arguing all the little details and busy being outraged or contemptuous, but nobody's actually THINKING. I commend this article and it's author.

I know this is an old article but I have a problem with it and I'd like some help coming to terms.

The reasoning here is that rape is a word that represents something very horrible, that causes long term problems for people, that damages them to their core. And so, because of this, the word should not be used, and should be seen as offensive.

And I agree that the word does represent something horrible, I really can only imagine it. However, there are a lot of horrible things in the world that come with just as much suffering and misery. I can think of several, "Kill" "Stab" "Shoot" "Murder" "Mutilate" "Dominate" "Torture". These are all words we not only use commonly in video games, but actually represent some of the things we do in games.

Very foolish ignorant people have said to me "Well no one has been murdered and is around to complain". True, but what about people who were victims of attempted murder? Or what about people who have ever committed murder?

I bring this up because for me this is where the argument for why a word is so horrible, just falls apart. My family has suffered greatly ever since my father was forced to kill another human being to save a life. I spare the details here because it is not my story to tell. He's not a cop, or a soldier, or a security guard, he's just a dad raising money for me and my siblings growing up. When something horrible happened and my dad did the only thing he could do, and took another person's life to save someone else.

It has, for lack of better words, seriously fucked him up for the rest of his life. He too suffers, as the writer of this article does, from PTSD and constant anxiety. It's been an affliction that has been felt in my entire family. One day my dad was one person, now he's another. The man I knew before the age of 13 is gone, and this shell of a man took his place. I love him, and he loves me, but he's broken.

Yet we jokingly kill people in games all the time. We do more than just talk about killing people, dismembering them, and bleeding them dry. We fucking do it in the game we are god damn playing!

So why is the argument "Murder is wrong and has damaged people for the rest of their lives, and therefore mention of it should not be made." not a valid argument, while the exact same argument for the word "rape" is completely acceptable? I do not question or belittle the horrors the writer of this article went through, I am sorry for what happened but even more so for what you have to live with. But is it any different than the survivors of any other unspeakable horror? Is my dad's fear of graphic images and the trauma he feels (exposed to me over many years of upbringing) not as valid? Where does one line end and the other begin?

You are not supposed to "Kill" "Stab" "Shoot" "Murder" "Mutilate" "Dominate" "Torture" or to be "Killed" Stabbed" Shot" "Murdered" "Mutilated" "Dominated" "Tortured" if you have a normal life. However, as a human being, you are supposed to have sex (having or not having children as a consequence of it) at some point. How do you suppose that, up until then, normal human function is going to become for a rape victim? Not to mention if that was their first contact with something sexual ever because they were raped while still being children. Just being caressed would remind you how you were brutally raped, and your body and mind would reject it. Even a kiss would be a no go.

Additionally, victims of rape might be "Killed" Stabbed" Shot" "Murdered" and "Mutilated" as well when the scene rape occurs. Furthermore, rape victims are always "Dominated" during rape. Rape is a means of "Torture" by itself (used to torture people in a variety of situations), and rape is often accompanied by other means of torture.

I would argue that rape involves more pain and it is more pervasive in your afterwards daily life than "Kill" "Stab" "Shoot" "Murder" "Mutilate" "Dominate" "Torture". Rape is not "just rape".

A victim survivor cannot seek comfort in a mother, son, partner or friend in the way "Kill" "Stab" "Shoot" "Murder" "Mutilate" "Dominate" (and the rest of people) can and would do, for example, with a gesture such as a hug, because even innocent supporting hugs are stained and painful for rape survivors. When even your loving partner, family and friends are dangerous (can cause an extreme pain) to you, what is there left for a person to live? Why do you think it is usual for rape victims to commit suicide?

As your dad, rape victims become also shells, mere shadows of the person they had been before. The shell your dad has become can at least try to seek some comfort in you. Even if it is pointless for him, he still can follow his natural instintcs, put his head on your chest, close his eyes, and try to not to think about the horrible things he went through. If your dad were a rape victim, he would not even have that.

I sincerely hope to have helped you understand.

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here