BioWare Did Right By Us

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BioWare Did Right By Us

You don't lose artistic integrity if you're just trying to get your point across.

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Be warned: You said something nice about EA/Bioware. Now expect a bunch of angry people to accuse you of being a whore.

At least, that would happen if you were on /v/.

@saintdane05: Someone will definitely link this thread to /v/ now.

As for me, I don't really care. The game sucks regardless of the ending.

/smug self-satisfaction

I disagree with the notion that the EC works in absolutes (ie: fixes everything/fixes nothing) - what it does is allow emotional satisfaction (by way of the character-centric epilogues) at the expense of intellectual satisfaction (because allowing the Catalyst to elaborate doesn't change how utterly dumb that entire segment is). It's still a net gain overall, though, because it makes the latter tolerable - I still hate the Starchild and everything it represents, but that's not all there is to the ending anymore.

I still haven't touched ME3 because I'm still waiting for the smoke to clear.

And because I'm afraid I will be very disappointed from all I've heard about the suckish ending. Maybe it's better to relish the memories of ME1 and 2 and pretend Sheperd died from a ruptured hemorrhoid on a particularly explosive toilet break.

The extended cut was better, it was far from perfect, hell it was still only passably good, but at least it didn't fill me with the same rage the original ending did.

Round of applause Bioware for taking a step in the right direction, then turn it into a sarcastic slow clap that they made a mistake of this caliber in the first place.

All I want to know is why the hell they couldn't have done all that in the first place? IF the content of the EC had been in the game originally then there wouldn't have been the fuss that there was.

I'm giving the EC ending a wavering hand. Not really quite a resounding "meh," but I certainly think there is more that should have been done. I don't think I'm alone in saying that introducing a new character - especially one that is as influential as the Catalyst - in the last 5 minutes of the game is a Bad Idea.

Now unlike some, I don't necessarily think that the Star Child needs to be taken out, especially now that he has been rewritten into a rogue AI instead of an omniscient Being. But adding some foreshadowing would be good. Even something as subtle as having the Prothean Computer refer to the Catalyst as "he" in the same discussion where it reveals that the Catalyst is the Citadel would be an improvement. Or have the Computer explain that in their search for the Catalyst, the Protheans' analysis revealed that Keeper behavior on the Citadel during their cycle indicated a higher order of reasoning than the Keepers themselves seemed capable of. Really, anything other than "O hai! I'm Zemus the Catalyst. The Reapers are my puppets, yo."

Oh, and one minor nitpick about the EC... I see that in addition to Multi-Core Shielding, we have added some serious Plot Armor to the Normandy. Or did Harbinger just decide that the ship that carries the people that have been screwing with the Reapers' plans at every turn just wasn't worth shooting at? Maybe Joker had a Red Cross painted on the hull?

If I remember correctly Jennifer Hale said that she didn't do any more voice acting for the extended cut, (implying that none was done at all, since her voice is used for Shepard and the Catalyst.) This would imply that all of this content was produced for the game and then cut. If so, then why?

Scars Unseen:
Oh, and one minor nitpick about the EC... I see that in addition to Multi-Core Shielding, we have added some serious Plot Armor to the Normandy. Or did Harbinger just decide that the ship that carries the people that have been screwing with the Reapers' plans at every turn just wasn't worth shooting at? Maybe Joker had a Red Cross painted on the hull?

I actually attributed that to the Normandy's stealth systems - they've said many times that the only way you could detect the ship would be if you were looking at it, and Reapers don't have "eyes"... :)

Diana Kingston-Gabai:

Scars Unseen:
Oh, and one minor nitpick about the EC... I see that in addition to Multi-Core Shielding, we have added some serious Plot Armor to the Normandy. Or did Harbinger just decide that the ship that carries the people that have been screwing with the Reapers' plans at every turn just wasn't worth shooting at? Maybe Joker had a Red Cross painted on the hull?

I actually attributed that to the Normandy's stealth systems - they've said many times that the only way you could detect the ship would be if you were looking at it, and Reapers don't have "eyes"... :)

The problem with that assumption is that the Reaper-created Collector ship could detect the Normandy just fine, even in stealth mode.

Scars Unseen:

Diana Kingston-Gabai:

Scars Unseen:
Oh, and one minor nitpick about the EC... I see that in addition to Multi-Core Shielding, we have added some serious Plot Armor to the Normandy. Or did Harbinger just decide that the ship that carries the people that have been screwing with the Reapers' plans at every turn just wasn't worth shooting at? Maybe Joker had a Red Cross painted on the hull?

I actually attributed that to the Normandy's stealth systems - they've said many times that the only way you could detect the ship would be if you were looking at it, and Reapers don't have "eyes"... :)

The problem with that assumption is that the Reaper-created Collector ship could detect the Normandy just fine, even in stealth mode.

That was the original Normandy though. Not the one from Mass Effect 2/3.

I would like to point out, yet again, that given the proclivity of life in the universe in the Milky Way alone, the glowy fuckwit's logic ends in synthetic lifeforms from another galaxy spreading across the universe and conquering all non-synthetic lifeforms since only the Milky way generated the Reapers. There is no other option. Which means no matter what you do you're screwed in the long term. Or perhaps given how long the cycle has gone on, the short term.

Scars Unseen:
The problem with that assumption is that the Reaper-created Collector ship could detect the Normandy just fine, even in stealth mode.

True, but the ship wasn't piloting itself - the Collectors could have looked out any window and seen the Normandy. Reapers don't carry crew as such.

anthony87:

Scars Unseen:

Diana Kingston-Gabai:

I actually attributed that to the Normandy's stealth systems - they've said many times that the only way you could detect the ship would be if you were looking at it, and Reapers don't have "eyes"... :)

The problem with that assumption is that the Reaper-created Collector ship could detect the Normandy just fine, even in stealth mode.

That was the original Normandy though. Not the one from Mass Effect 2/3.

Just checked the Codex entries, and while the Normandy SR2 did receive several upgrades, an improved stealth system(which was already cutting edge) was not one of them.

Diana Kingston-Gabai:

Scars Unseen:
The problem with that assumption is that the Reaper-created Collector ship could detect the Normandy just fine, even in stealth mode.

True, but the ship wasn't piloting itself - the Collectors could have looked out any window and seen the Normandy. Reapers don't carry crew as such.

You can't see a ship outside the window when it's not in visual range.

Scars Unseen:

Diana Kingston-Gabai:

Scars Unseen:
Oh, and one minor nitpick about the EC... I see that in addition to Multi-Core Shielding, we have added some serious Plot Armor to the Normandy. Or did Harbinger just decide that the ship that carries the people that have been screwing with the Reapers' plans at every turn just wasn't worth shooting at? Maybe Joker had a Red Cross painted on the hull?

I actually attributed that to the Normandy's stealth systems - they've said many times that the only way you could detect the ship would be if you were looking at it, and Reapers don't have "eyes"... :)

The problem with that assumption is that the Reaper-created Collector ship could detect the Normandy just fine, even in stealth mode.

It's possible that the Normandy didn't have its stealth systems up when the Collector's attacked. That's the only reason I can think of, at least.

Irridium:

Scars Unseen:

Diana Kingston-Gabai:

I actually attributed that to the Normandy's stealth systems - they've said many times that the only way you could detect the ship would be if you were looking at it, and Reapers don't have "eyes"... :)

The problem with that assumption is that the Reaper-created Collector ship could detect the Normandy just fine, even in stealth mode.

It's possible that the Normandy didn't have its stealth systems up when the Collector's attacked. That's the only reason I can think of, at least.

Presley specifically says that they had stealth systems engaged.

Scars Unseen:

Irridium:

Scars Unseen:

The problem with that assumption is that the Reaper-created Collector ship could detect the Normandy just fine, even in stealth mode.

It's possible that the Normandy didn't have its stealth systems up when the Collector's attacked. That's the only reason I can think of, at least.

Presley specifically says that they had stealth systems engaged.

Oh. Well I don't know, then.

Irridium:

Scars Unseen:

Irridium:

It's possible that the Normandy didn't have its stealth systems up when the Collector's attacked. That's the only reason I can think of, at least.

Presley specifically says that they had stealth systems engaged.

Oh. Well I don't know, then.

I'm fairly certain that the intended implication was that even the Normandy's bleeding edge stealth system wasn't good enough to fool Reaper technology.

Bioware did right by us by at least attempting to fix their mess that was the ending, but they would have done even better by us if they had simply made a good ending in the first place.

For me the extended cut didnt fix any of the real problems I had with it, the problem for me was never that the Starkid wasnt explained or didnt provide closure, it was that the Starkid existed in the first place. I understand that it was their choice to do things that way and I respect that, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that that was the wrong choice to make and their work suffers as a whole from it.

Scars Unseen:

I'm fairly certain that the intended implication was that even the Normandy's bleeding edge stealth system wasn't good enough to fool Reaper technology.

But is the SR2 ever spotted while in stealth mode? I can't remember it being. Plus in ME3 the Reapers only spot you when you use your sensors to scan for stuff, I'm pretty sure that implies that if you hadn't done that they couldn't have detected you.

WoahDan:
Bioware did right by us by at least attempting to fix their mess that was the ending, but they would have done even better by us if they had simply made a good ending in the first place.

For me the extended cut didnt fix any of the real problems I had with it, the problem for me was never that the Starkid wasnt explained or didnt provide closure, it was that the Starkid existed in the first place. I understand that it was their choice to do things that way and I respect that, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that that was the wrong choice to make and their work suffers as a whole from it.

Scars Unseen:

I'm fairly certain that the intended implication was that even the Normandy's bleeding edge stealth system wasn't good enough to fool Reaper technology.

But is the SR2 ever spotted while in stealth mode? I can't remember it being. Plus in ME3 the Reapers only spot you when you use your sensors to scan for stuff, I'm pretty sure that implies that if you hadn't done that they couldn't have detected you.

The SR2 uses the same stealth system as the SR1, or at least there is nothing in the game that explicitly claims an upgrade(while there are several other systems that are listed as having been upgraded). As for the scanning thing, that could be explained by one of two possibilities. It's possible(likely, in fact) that sensors are not as accurate from beyond the range of a single star system, but that active scanning necessarily produces a signal more easily detected. Alternatively, and there is evidence to back this up, Bioware sucks at maintaining consistency from game to game, or even within the same game.

Scars Unseen:

WoahDan:
Bioware did right by us by at least attempting to fix their mess that was the ending, but they would have done even better by us if they had simply made a good ending in the first place.

For me the extended cut didnt fix any of the real problems I had with it, the problem for me was never that the Starkid wasnt explained or didnt provide closure, it was that the Starkid existed in the first place. I understand that it was their choice to do things that way and I respect that, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that that was the wrong choice to make and their work suffers as a whole from it.

Scars Unseen:

I'm fairly certain that the intended implication was that even the Normandy's bleeding edge stealth system wasn't good enough to fool Reaper technology.

But is the SR2 ever spotted while in stealth mode? I can't remember it being. Plus in ME3 the Reapers only spot you when you use your sensors to scan for stuff, I'm pretty sure that implies that if you hadn't done that they couldn't have detected you.

The SR2 uses the same stealth system as the SR1, or at least there is nothing in the game that explicitly claims an upgrade(while there are several other systems that are listed as having been upgraded). As for the scanning thing, that could be explained by one of two possibilities. It's possible(likely, in fact) that sensors are not as accurate from beyond the range of a single star system, but that active scanning necessarily produces a signal more easily detected. Alternatively, and there is evidence to back this up, Bioware sucks at maintaining consistency from game to game, or even within the same game.

Oh, if we are going meta the actual reason is that its a completly different team that handles cutscenes rather than the gameplay/codex. Thats why the cutscenes disregard canon in its totality and always have ( Space battles at ridiculously close ranges! Krogans die after being shot once!).

Tiamat666:
I still haven't touched ME3 because I'm still waiting for the smoke to clear.

And because I'm afraid I will be very disappointed from all I've heard about the suckish ending. Maybe it's better to relish the memories of ME1 and 2 and pretend Sheperd died from a ruptured hemorrhoid on a particularly explosive toilet break.

Still me3 is a great game excluding the ending, sitting it out is kind of silly because there is so much great game there only marred by the last 10 15 minutes of it, well if you got the ec i guess it would be 30 to 40 minutes more, then i guess that means u need to play the ec and decide for yourself if it ties things up better or not.

That one sentence, the "They did not approve." one. That alone explained so much, and yet in a way that didn't feel like a lazy cop-out, that it took away about half of the bad taste left by the original ending all by itself. It's a testament to just how much can be said in so few words, and it was such a relief to know that Bioware still get this, even if it took us a while to get it out of them.

Also, I don't think we're in any danger of having "a George Lucas of video games" just yet. Yes, I believe an artists right to stick by their decisions related to their own work must always be respected no matter how much we may not like it. However, I also believe that Bioware wouldn't have done the Extended Cut just for damage control purposes. I believe that they did want to give us the clarity and closure that we wanted, because they care about people appreciating (if not entirely agreeing) with their work, not just people continuing to pay for it. This, in my opinion, makes everything that was added in the EC just as valid an artistic choice as everything that was in the original.

I'm kind of baffled that Bioware seem to be saying that they didn't understand what their own ending implied using their own lore.

I think that might explain why it ended so...poorly.

I'm happy with some of the changes they made.

Some of them were glaringly forced attempts to appease complaints. Like, the hilarious scene where harbinger patiently waits for the Normandy to rescue your squadmates.

A good deal of the many (MANY) flaws of the original ending were not addressed, such as the catalyst existing as he is (being the citadel, replacing abruptly an established antagonist, taking the shape of that one kid he couldn't possibly know about, lowering the dignity of the reapers, to list some more specific examples).

War assets still meant fuck all.

I still have several personal grievances with each of the endings, like the crucible's intended purpose remaining really obscure, the crucible's destruction wave targeting all synthetics instead of just "stuff shaped like giant crabs" for no reason, synthesis making no goddamn sense and essentially standing as "giving up to the reapers' way of thinking", and control forcing Shepard to ascend to a higher existence to beat the reapers as if the galaxy couldn't do it on its own merits, and the slap in the face that was the refusal ending.

All in all it was "eh...". I'm glad they at least spent resources on a free DLC for us, but I feel it was mostly for good PR. It may have been free, but keeping fans is still an investment opportunity.

I haven't given up on bioware, and provided they don't try to milk Shepard's story any more (IE move on to a new protagonist in a new era either past or future), I'll be more than happy to buy the next installment in the Mass Effect series.

Tiamat666:
I still haven't touched ME3 because I'm still waiting for the smoke to clear.

And because I'm afraid I will be very disappointed from all I've heard about the suckish ending. Maybe it's better to relish the memories of ME1 and 2 and pretend Sheperd died from a ruptured hemorrhoid on a particularly explosive toilet break.

Second that, except the part about the toilet.

But it is a funny way to end the series.

And this is why the creative idea of a polarizing ending needs to be treated very carefully.

One of the best examples I have seen of a polarizing ending is Infamous 2.

From what I have heard about ME3 and what I read in the article...

Message sent, just not what he wanted.

/sigh

The Extended Cut does improve the existing endings, at least enough for my previous ire for the endings to be toned down to very mild dissatisfaction. It'll do, but going off of the quality of the rest of the game, its clear that the endings could have been much better in the first place. They shouldn't have needed an Extended Cut if they had more time, had fewer plot leaks along the way, had a better Project Lead...

I'm still not all that happy about the endings, but the improvements will have to be enough. It'll do.

... I still hate that fucking kid though.

Tiamat666:
I still haven't touched ME3 because I'm still waiting for the smoke to clear.

And because I'm afraid I will be very disappointed from all I've heard about the suckish ending. Maybe it's better to relish the memories of ME1 and 2 and pretend Sheperd died from a ruptured hemorrhoid on a particularly explosive toilet break.

To be honest...Yes. That is your best bet. The game isn't bad, it's just not as good as ME1 or ME2 and the ending retroactively makes the whole series look like a F'n joke.

The real shame is that what BioWare "fixed" are all the holes pointed out by their fanbase.

All the species in the galaxy starving to death in Earth orbit. Joker reluctantly leaving instead of cowardly retreating, and an option to say "God Child your choices are really stupid."

Tiamat666:
I still haven't touched ME3 because I'm still waiting for the smoke to clear.

And because I'm afraid I will be very disappointed from all I've heard about the suckish ending. Maybe it's better to relish the memories of ME1 and 2 and pretend Sheperd died from a ruptured hemorrhoid on a particularly explosive toilet break.

The original ending was rubbish, the EC in my opinion is satisfactory - not amazing but decent and not worth the grief it's been getting. But the first 3 acts of the game work nicely. If nothing else, you can watch up through killing TIM and the following five or so minutes, turn the game off before you talk to the annoying ghost kid, and write your pretend ending from there.

If only the EC had been the original ending. Not perfect at all, sure, but at least I wouldn't have the bad taste in my mouth the original left.

Zagzag:
If I remember correctly Jennifer Hale said that she didn't do any more voice acting for the extended cut, (implying that none was done at all, since her voice is used for Shepard and the Catalyst.) This would imply that all of this content was produced for the game and then cut. If so, then why?

I've been really wondering about this. Maybe at the time of Jen's interview she didn't record any new lines, but then they brought her in later. Maybe.

Scars Unseen:

WoahDan:
Bioware did right by us by at least attempting to fix their mess that was the ending, but they would have done even better by us if they had simply made a good ending in the first place.

For me the extended cut didnt fix any of the real problems I had with it, the problem for me was never that the Starkid wasnt explained or didnt provide closure, it was that the Starkid existed in the first place. I understand that it was their choice to do things that way and I respect that, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that that was the wrong choice to make and their work suffers as a whole from it.

Scars Unseen:

I'm fairly certain that the intended implication was that even the Normandy's bleeding edge stealth system wasn't good enough to fool Reaper technology.

But is the SR2 ever spotted while in stealth mode? I can't remember it being. Plus in ME3 the Reapers only spot you when you use your sensors to scan for stuff, I'm pretty sure that implies that if you hadn't done that they couldn't have detected you.

The SR2 uses the same stealth system as the SR1, or at least there is nothing in the game that explicitly claims an upgrade(while there are several other systems that are listed as having been upgraded). As for the scanning thing, that could be explained by one of two possibilities. It's possible(likely, in fact) that sensors are not as accurate from beyond the range of a single star system, but that active scanning necessarily produces a signal more easily detected. Alternatively, and there is evidence to back this up, Bioware sucks at maintaining consistency from game to game, or even within the same game.

Another possible explanation: Harbinger had a lock and was about to blow the Normandy away but was so moved by your last goodbyes to your LI that it held its fire. Because Harbinger is a merciless, unfeeling killing machine, but it's not a complete monster.

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