The Big Picture: Batman Revisited, Part 2

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Batman Revisited, Part 2

MovieBob continues with his journey through Batman movie history.

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Did they have the age-rating system back then?

And I don't like crazy Catwoman either. Staples aren't sexy!

Wait, so in a way...Tim Burton is responsible for the way Batman & Robin turned out?

Chris O'Donnell's career has only recently recovered from what happened next.

You know, I like Bob when he sees bad movies. It makes me smile to see him RAGE RAR!

Hey, at least in regards to Catwoman, she started off a whole new generation of rubber fetishists.

Wow I never knew that and that made sense for the third and fourth films result. So in another word we got Tim Burton to blame for that?

Before the Comic Code Authority Batman killed people with guns and even threw people off the roof.

DVS BSTrD:
Did they have the age-rating system back then?

And I don't like crazy Catwoman either. Staples aren't sexy!

Do you mean on her suit? That was cartoonishly large tread holding the patches of leather together not staples.

I always thought of that Catwoman as a freed and/or uninhibited version of herself from a quiet straight laced secretary, which yeah can look and actually seem or be crazy but only doing so to serve the purpose of enjoying herself and not Joker crazy or Two-Face Crazy.

So, the whole controversy over batman returns is over the fact that parent refuse to understand what PG-13 means?

To be honest: Batman Returns is my favourite. Batman 1 suffered from being more about the Joker than about Batman but while Returns also had a very big emphasis on it's villains but i think it did it better. To be honest though, i didnÄt like DeVitos Penguin either but Pfeiffers Catwoman was groovy as hell and Christopher Walken as Christopher Walken as Max Schreck was the shit. But... you know, that's just my opinion.

Lucane:

DVS BSTrD:
Did they have the age-rating system back then?

And I don't like crazy Catwoman either. Staples aren't sexy!

Do you mean on her suit? That was cartoonishly large tread holding the patches of leather together not staples.

I always thought of that Catwoman as a freed and/or uninhibited version of herself from a quiet straight laced secretary, which yeah can look and actually seem or be crazy but only doing so to serve the purpose of enjoying herself and not Joker crazy or Two-Face Crazy.

There is a difference between uninhibited and putting a live finch in your mouth to show how dedicated you are.

ah next week, i like jim carrey (on occasion) and I like the riddler (when he's done good) so i thought that it would be a good film.

iceykitsune:
So, the whole controversy over batman returns is over the fact that parent refuse to understand what PG-13 means?

The original was also PG-13, and it didn't have nearly as much violence or sex. Given that the movie was merchandised heavily towards kids I don't think it was unreasonable for parents to be surprised by the more mature content of the sequel.

Is it the movie's fault? No, the problem lies mostly with the marketing and merchandising. Even today it's common for movies and games aimed at the 13+ crowd to get toys aimed for younger children. This isn't to say that parents don't have responsibility for the media they let their kids consume, but when the marketing skews things this much parents can't make an informed decision.

I still maintain it is the best Batman film to this day. Not from a cohesive narrative point of view, granted, but when you've got art deco, biblical retribution and third-wave feminism aplenty...I'm inclined to give that a pass.
It's thematically and intertextually *dense*, and not in the philosophy minor didactic fashion of Nolan's films.

Pfeiffer's Catwoman is particularly fantastic because it's one of few examples of real gyno-rage in mainstream American cinema; undiluted by 'maternal instinct' or any such simplistic qualifiers.
She is an outright rebellion against the patriarchal status quo. Being a sole catalyst of that movement, however, is both trying and fraught with relentless opposition, causing her psyche (and her suit, in a clever visual device) to fracture and split at the seams.

The script by Daniel Waters is obviously laboured by rewrites, but his sardonic humour and attention to character dynamics is apparent throughout, and not entirely unlike his brilliant Heathers.

I love it. Every wacky and oddly-paced minute of it.

I remember that Tim Burton was working on Batman Returns while The Nightmare Before Christmas was made. Sometimes I wonder what that movie would be like if Burton had more time to devote to it.

In addition, about Batman killing, didn't he kill someone in the first Batman movie? And in the early comics, Batman killed criminals all the time? Either way... yeah, I agree, he shouldn't really be going around killing people, and he ESPECIALLY shouldn't look like he's actually enjoying it.

saintdane05:
FIRST TROLOLOLOLOL!!!!!1111!!!!

I've always wanted to be annoying like that.

Prepare to face the banhammer, because the Escapist comes down on that hard.

On topic: I always said that Batman Returns could have been a good movie if Batman hadn't been in it. Or, more precisely, if it hadn't had the Batman Mythos forced into it. The idea of a hideously deformed man abandoned by his rich parents trying to work his way back into high society, being taken advantage of by members of said high society and ultimately turning rogue would make for an excellent movie, especially set to Burton's visual aesthetic. This movie could have worked as a tragedy and a scathing commentary about the shallowness, elitism and abuse of high society.
This is a script that Burton should not have tried to make into a Batman movie and instead made into one of his own. Alas, that wasn't what he was hired to write.

I almost forgot how Sean Young went on national television in a home made Catwoman suit in order to confront Tim Burton about the part.

Didn't she also stalk James Woods or something?

first of all: thank you Bob for working your ass off to give us this video and a special edition escape to the movies warning us about how bad spider man is, the internet appreciates this.

Second, for all its flaws this movie is still very awesome because at the end there's an army of penguins attacking the city with rocket launchers.

Forever, hmmm? I see what you did thar...

I'm pretty sure that's a picture of Tim Drake when you mention Dick Grayson being written out of Batman.

Random: I had 5/6 of those toys. The only one I missed out on was the Joker car.

edit: Yep, that looks like the cover of Robin #0. It's Drake.

dude michelle pfeiffer as Crazy version of cat woman is one of the best things of that movie and an incredible take on some of Batman the Killing joke themes

As dark and flawed as they are, I'd still take the Burton pair over the Schumacher pair in a heartbeat.

Thank goodness, I was fearing this was going to get praised.

Sorry, but I really liked Burton's Penguin character. Yes he's darker than some comic book adaptations but that works really well in the environment. Saying that Burton's version of the Penguin "isn't a Penguin" is quite condescending and spiteful. Seems as though if it's not formed in your personal ideal of the Joker it's instantaneously bad?

I mean, Heath Ledger's version was just as dark, just in a slightly different way.

Secondly, Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman is my favourite silver screen version of the character. I always thought her costume rocked and was very fitting. Lot better than this by any means.

MonkeyPunch:
Saying that Burton's version of the Penguin "isn't a Penguin" is quite condescending and spiteful.

God, think if people didn't make changes to the villains what would we be stuck with.
image
I have to agree with monkey punch, I love danny devito as the penguin.

I personally like Batman Returns, it is my favorite Batman movie. It may not be perfect, but, God it's so much fun.

The thing about innuendo is that if you get it you already know worse and if you don't get it, it goes over your head. Which is why there was so much worse than anything in Batman Returns on 60's-80's UK daytime TV and why I don't remember any fuss over the movie at all here. "WHY THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ARE REALLY WEIRD" for the topic after Batman Bob?.

iceykitsune:
So, the whole controversy over batman returns is over the fact that parent refuse to understand what PG-13 means?

MPAA ratings are based strictly on superficial content, not subtext. If there's no blood or dismemberment of human beings, and no actual nudity or sex, and none of George Carlin's "seven words", and no illegal drug use, you'll thoroughly avoid an "R" rating, no matter how suggestive the material is. (Also, look back at things like "Goonies", "Adventures in Babysitting", "Gremlins", "The Outsiders", "Labyrinth"--80s films aimed ostensibly at children and teens that would probably have to be severely trimmed today.)

Complained at the violence and sexual innuedos?

Maybe its just because I was never shielded from the world by my mum and wrapped up in the old wool of cotton, but.....

What violence? Batman has a few slap fights with a bunch of blokes dressed as clowns, thats hardly violent. At least not in my world at that time. The sexual innuendos I also didn't get, mostly owing to the fact I was only 5 at the time and just happy to see another Batman movie.

The bloke getting set alight and burned to death by the Jokers hand buzzer in the first movie was far more violent than the colourful gymnastic men in Returns

Returns is not my favorite Batman movie, but it certainly is a lot of fun and I still enjoy it to this very day, I definitely enjoyed the offbeat, dark and grim tone of Returns and that classic Burton style.

Not my favorite, but I like it. I hate Forever and Batman & Robin with a burning passion, let's see what Movie Bob has to say about them.

Bob, you madman! You're going into Schumacher territory!

I also just remembered I've seen every Batman movie in the Burton/Schumacher quadrilogy except Returns. I'll have to try tracking it down one of these days.

When I was a kid I loved that movie. I think just the penguin navy that got me going. Despite all that dark stuff Burton made, my parents strangely didn't have an issue with me watching it. Didn't know I was the exeception to the rule for it.

I LOVE Batman Returns. I even felt it has the strongest Batman moments out of ANY of the films. The dance scene with Bruce and Selina, ironically the only two NOT in costume at a costume ball, dancing and realizing each others' identities, and how their both so upset and shocked and yet, damn it, they want it to work... only for it to fall apart... it's so great.

Also, yeah. I agree. The Penguin in this film is a monster and a different version than the comics... but that's a GOOD thing. You could levy the exact same "complaint" about Heath Ledger's Joker being a far cry from the comic version, turned into a new monster for the film, and it still works. Only, ONLY thing I hated was the missile-penguins. :P So cute. I can't take them seriously.

But I do find it funny how parents flipped out over Batman Returns, while the modern The Dark Knight I feel is far more adult, violent, and emotionally scarring. Thematically, it's even more disturbing than Returns is and it is far more cynical and despondent than Batman Returns was.

I'll also throw this in. Yes, Batman kills badguys in this movie... and I'm okay with that. It was once stated that Burton's films had the feel of the original comics (while Joel Schumachuer's had the tone of the 50s and 60s) and Nolan's films are the modern Batman. But, as Bob Kane pointed out, Batman did a LOT of killing in the original comics. I mean, yes, Batman has a no-kill-code now, but not when he started. In fact, in his first issue, he flat out tosses a mafia boss into a vat of acid and then says it's a fitting end for his kind.

The ONLY reason Batman ever got a no-kill-code, according to Bob Kane, was because he realized that killing off popular villains was hurting the comic. If Batman did not kill the Joker, the Joker could come back again and again. If he killed off all the enemies he could, Batman would not have a rogue's gallery. That's the only reason. Thus his no-kill code was added in the 40's to justify popular villains not being killed off.

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