Excessively Excessive

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I had to google weetabix. It looks kind of disgusting.

hes pinned it down perfectly the AAA industry has taken a michael bay suppository .. MORE !!!!

Katya Topolkaraeva:
Women who have intelligent things to say generally tend to prefer male company.

please, PLEASE, keep your absolutely unfounded generalizations to yourself. good grief.

OnTopic: Thanks Yahtzee for a very good text, and thanks to the ones that have been discussing and arguing in a reasonable fashion. No thanks to those who are just being thick. Yes, you.

Yahtzee too you? What the frak, is Escapist going to become nothing more than feminist&gay-rights hole? I'm not treating my lady like shit, so fuck off already with all that lecturing.

Right, let's go and make a Godfather remake where women will have an equal role in the mafia. And also let's make that 'best' mandatory and ban movies which won't pass it. Because everything has to be equal every time everywhere. Great.

SpiderJerusalem:

Reading comprehension, you don't have it.

Where did I say that not passing the test makes anything a bad movie? Where? I said, very clearly, that the test is broken because it takes nothing but numbers into count and would pass any female characters, even if they were nude prostitutes that spoke of what are their favorite turnips, as long as they didn't talk about men and had names.

Next time, take your time and actually read what is there. Thank you.

That's like saying a spanner is inherently broken because it doesn't cook pasta. By saying this, you show that you fundamentally fail to understand the concept.

The Bechdel Test doesn't measure anything, except that when applied to many films it shows a worrying trend. Failing the test doesn't mean a film is a bad film, or that it's anti-feminist. Passing the test doesn't mean a film's not horribly sexist. It's not about how good a film is at portraying women at all; it's about their non-existence as characters other than as adjuncts to men.

Try applying the "Reverse Bechdel Test" to films - do two named male characters talk to each other about something other than a woman or women? You'll find it incredibly difficult to find a film that fails it; of those, most will be ones that are set all-female environments (e.g. convents), or have very few characters at all, perhaps only one or two - in other words, highly unusual.

We don't use the Bechdel Test to evaluate individual movies (or whatever medium) - we use it to evaluate the total output. We can't even begin to think about how good the representation of women is when there's actually little or no representation.

Sgt. Sykes:
Yahtzee too you? What the frak, is Escapist going to become nothing more than feminist&gay-rights hole? I'm not treating my lady like shit, so fuck off already with all that lecturing.

Right, let's go and make a Godfather remake where women will have an equal role in the mafia. And also let's make that 'best' mandatory and ban movies which won't pass it. Because everything has to be equal every time everywhere. Great.

Yahtzee has always been an ignorant hipster cynic who thinks he needs to save gaming from itself, and seeing trends where there are actually statics. His reviews are amusing. His opinions are painfully ignorant.

Jove:
Is it just me or did Croshaw become a lot less funny and much more cynical? His views have been...well to put it kindly...sketchy at best. (Bechdel Test...really?)

The guy is even less popular here now in terms of views and comments, Jimqusition and MovieBob seem to be way over him here now.

And you people wonder why I get pissed whenever he rags on Nintendo and refuse to take these whole "I'm not biased" arguments seriously. Of course he's gotten far more cynical. It's like he doesn't even want to try to find something to enjoy anymore. And that's just sad.

I blame the Escapist for making him play all of those generic FPS games. They've obviously broken him at this point.

The Bechdel Test was a joke.

It was a one-off joke in a joke-a-day webcomic.

As a joke, it was fairly clever, observant and entertaining, but it is not, nor was it ever intended to be, a good measurement of anything (note that no character in that comic strip said anything about what it tests for).

Please stop beating this dead horse. You are like if the people who quote "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" believed they were contributing to meaningful discourse on culture.

At least the people who run that website keep a fairly extensive list of what it doesn't say about a film. If only the rest of the people who use it would follow suit.

ms_sunlight:

That's like saying a spanner is inherently broken because it doesn't cook pasta. By saying this, you show that you fundamentally fail to understand the concept.

The Bechdel Test doesn't measure anything, except that when applied to many films it shows a worrying trend. Failing the test doesn't mean a film is a bad film, or that it's anti-feminist. Passing the test doesn't mean a film's not horribly sexist. It's not about how good a film is at portraying women at all; it's about their non-existence as characters other than as adjuncts to men.

Try applying the "Reverse Bechdel Test" to films - do two named male characters talk to each other about something other than a woman or women? You'll find it incredibly difficult to find a film that fails it; of those, most will be ones that are set all-female environments (e.g. convents), or have very few characters at all, perhaps only one or two - in other words, highly unusual.

We don't use the Bechdel Test to evaluate individual movies (or whatever medium) - we use it to evaluate the total output. We can't even begin to think about how good the representation of women is when there's actually little or no representation.

...

I don't know if it's a trend on the internet, or just the people here, but how hard is it to actually read the entire conversation or the entire post before responding?

It shouldn't be that difficult. All your points have been addressed and everything you've just said has been either gone through, or never stated in the first place.

Read first. Then think. Then respond.

It's not that hard. Thanks.

WoahDan:
The underlying problem behind much of the industry is not that money talks, its that it has too large a microphone...

True, but I don't think of this as a bad thing--just knee-jerk reaction on what would sell. If a developer thinks that their game would sell well if they include more and bigger tits in their game than the competitor's game, then they would do this.

But that logic implies there can only be one thing that could make a game sell well (i.e. the quantity and size of tits), with no consideration of other ways of making money. The MMORPG history is a good example of this where several publishers try stepping into WoW's territory and failing badly. Yet several South Korean and even Western MMORPGs are making the transition to "free-to-play" models, which allows them to earn money an entirely different way than what Blizzard started with. Several of them are being advertised right now on Steam and doing pretty well.

I believe Feminists could make a similar argument with their situation: If you want to make games toward heterosexual teenage males that get their ego stroked, then fine--but you are losing out on the potential sales of making games toward heterosexual teenage females that get their ego stroked. I know the "Twilight" series is bad, but there is a good market for it. Executives not seeing this is being blind and dumb.

WoahDan:
What can and hopefully will change is that hopefully designers will become more willing to say "that's nice but we are going this way instead" gaming needs to realise its a creative medium first and a business second, and those designers who have already realised it need to gain the freedom to act on that realisation.

I'll disagree with you that games are a creative medium first and a business second, as I believe they are both. Developers don't make these games out of the goodness of their heart, and publishers don't just toss out money for these games to be nice. Indie developers like Spiderweb Entertainment don't sacrifice time with friends and family 40+ hours a week to make awesome games for us--its their job. They want to be paid for it, and we are expected to give compensation by telling them its a great game by opening our wallets.

SpiderJerusalem:

I don't know if it's a trend on the internet, or just the people here, but how hard is it to actually read the entire conversation or the entire post before responding?

It shouldn't be that difficult. All your points have been addressed and everything you've just said has been either gone through, or never stated in the first place.

Read first. Then think. Then respond.

It's not that hard. Thanks.

I did, and I have no idea why you're implying I didn't unless it's because you can't answer. You're still wrong. I challenge you to apply a the Bechdel Test, then the Reverse Bechdel Test, to mainstream cinema, or any other mainstream media - even in the most cursory sense - and then explain to me exactly why the discrepancy in representation is completely unproblematic.

Katya Topolkaraeva:
My point being this: women who hang out with other woman generally spend a lot of time talking about things that would make "feminists" cringe. Women who have intelligent things to say generally tend to prefer male company.

I think that's probably more to do with your circle of acquaintances than women in general. I talk about other stuff - politics, the economy, films, music, society, technology - with women I know all the time.

"The entirety of human culture as a whole"

Really?

Really?

Can we please stop assuming the contemporary anglosphere is at all representative of the entire contemporary world, much less all of human history? Leaving the ignorance of history and anthropology aside, his media references hardly hold true across cultures. For example, what he says about comic books falls apart in Japan, where I am currently living. I can look up at the shelf above my desk and see Fuyumi Souryo's "Cesare: The Creator of Destruction", Yu Itoh's "shut Hell" and "Imperial Guards", and some old Keiko Takemiya collections. Beside them are several works by Naoki Urusawa, Ryouji Minoagawa and Ryoichi Ikegami, all notable for drawing realistically proportioned characters with a variety of body types and detailed, situation-appropriate clothing. If I bike down to the largest bookstore in the city and walk through their massive comics section, I will find the work of a wide variety of female writers and artists as well as shelves of comic books specifically targeting a female audience which take up roughly half the floor. For every cover adorned with a scantily clad woman, I will find one with a man posed to appeal to a female readership. To someone in my position, the whole suggestion seems absurd. If I were not also familiar with mainstream American comics, I would think he was just making shit up.

The lessons to take away from this are that you should be aware of what you don't know and that you should qualify your statements to reflect those limitations.

ms_sunlight:

SpiderJerusalem:

I don't know if it's a trend on the internet, or just the people here, but how hard is it to actually read the entire conversation or the entire post before responding?

It shouldn't be that difficult. All your points have been addressed and everything you've just said has been either gone through, or never stated in the first place.

Read first. Then think. Then respond.

It's not that hard. Thanks.

I did, and I have no idea why you're implying I didn't unless it's because you can't answer. You're still wrong. I challenge you to apply a the Bechdel Test, then the Reverse Bechdel Test, to mainstream cinema, or any other mainstream media - even in the most cursory sense - and then explain to me exactly why the discrepancy in representation is completely unproblematic.

No, you clearly didn't. Otherwise you would have seen my post about the Bechdel test being, in the first place, narrow and standardized, and thus, pointless.

It proves nothing to have a small, tiny margin in which your point can fit in and then apply that to such a vast, wide range of ideas as film is. It proves nothing to accept two characters talking about clothes and make up as an example of something that can pass the test and disregard any other film because their conversation wouldn't have place in the plot of that film.

It's been pointed out that the entire test began as a joke and has spiraled into a misguided attempt at trying to prove a problem (which exists, nobody is arguing against that) in the worst way possible.

In fact, I'll even take this step: I would say that the people running the Bechdel test blog are mostly (if good intentioned) misguided in their anger and are simply looking for trouble.

While they agree on whether or not a movie is good, they always continue it with "... even as a failure to include women". Regardless of the topic. Regardless of the setting. Regardless of anything and everything. It's always, why no women? Such repetition first becomes a millstone around their necks, then just becomes annoying. It's not productive and it sure as hell isn't going to do anything for that cause.

I mean, look at this part of their review on The Dark Knight:

The Dark Knight was filmed in Chicago, taking a leap from gothic mysticism onto the grimy, all-too-real streets of the windy city. It's a great technical choice by director Christopher Nolan, but the audience sees it as a man's world. There just don't seem to be any strong female characters that can survive in this environment: they're either martyrs, betrayers, or just on the sidelines. A female policewoman on Detective Gordon's staff sells them out to the mob. Gordon's wife sobs when policemen bring news of her husband's death and curses the Batman. A "tough" judge gets blown up by the Joker before we ever get to see her in action. Rachel dies for a plot twist. Women are only victims in this sooty city. And it doesn't have to be that way. It's ludicrous to assume that a harsh urban environment is only conducive to female dependence on the opposite sex.

They first agree and even point out that Nolan went out of his way to address the masculine nature of the story. It was advertised as such, written and directed to be a variation on Heat - a story about different kinds of alpha males clashing.

Only for the people running the blog launching into a tirade about the lack of women or for women acting, well, like REAL women would. Commissioner Gordon's wife cries when she is told her husband is dead? Oh no, that's just not what a real wife would do! They also completely gloss over the fact that the female officer is a Detective, working directly with Gordon, who, among MANY others - mostly men - are a part of the betrayal. Her reason? To protect her family.

This goes on and on and on. Convenient ways to overlook character and meaning just so there would be something to attack. Their blog is filled with this. A constant and never ending whinging about the lack of their ideal feminist woman, who, sadly, sounds a lot like them wanting the character to be a guy with breasts. At least if their review on Aliens is anything to go by.

SpiderJerusalem:
It's been pointed out that the entire test began as a joke and has spiraled into a misguided attempt at trying to prove a problem (which exists, nobody is arguing against that) in the worst way possible.

Dude, you are thinking about it WAY too hard.

SpiderJerusalem:
No, you clearly didn't. Otherwise you would have seen my post about the Bechdel test being, in the first place, narrow and standardized, and thus, pointless.

Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I didn't read what you wrote.

I still think you're wrong. Apples and oranges. You're trying to say that the Bechdel Test fails at something that no-one is saying it ought to be able to do in the first place.

ms_sunlight:

SpiderJerusalem:
No, you clearly didn't. Otherwise you would have seen my post about the Bechdel test being, in the first place, narrow and standardized, and thus, pointless.

Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I didn't read what you wrote.

I still think you're wrong. Apples and oranges. You're trying to say that the Bechdel Test fails at something that no-one is saying it ought to be able to do in the first place.

You're not getting it, are you? You're even conveniently ignoring the ENTIRE post that I wrote. Clearly, this test is for you. Same mindset.

Yahtzee, among others here defending the test, clearly think of it as some kind of a marker that we should use to make a point about there being a lack of females in movies. But it doesn't work, because the test itself is skewed in a way that it makes EVERYTHING seem like the female parts are wrong.

It's proven by the "reviews" on their site. It's proven by you. It's all there, yet you refuse to listen like an Apple fan would when someone dares to point out that their product isn't actually worth the time in the first place.

Scow2:

Sgt. Sykes:
Yahtzee too you? What the frak, is Escapist going to become nothing more than feminist&gay-rights hole? I'm not treating my lady like shit, so fuck off already with all that lecturing.

Right, let's go and make a Godfather remake where women will have an equal role in the mafia. And also let's make that 'best' mandatory and ban movies which won't pass it. Because everything has to be equal every time everywhere. Great.

Yahtzee has always been an ignorant hipster cynic who thinks he needs to save gaming from itself, and seeing trends where there are actually statics. His reviews are amusing. His opinions are painfully ignorant.

His article about anyone who shots people in the nuts in Sniper Elites is some super sick sadist that should seek help, proves how much he over states his opinion but I found this article pretty fair myself. The game industry is rather obsessed with out doing itself at every turn and it is a problem.

As for the Bechdel test it's does not test the quality of a movie, nor does every movie have to pass it, no one has ever said that. It's only meant to point out a problem, for every hundred movies out only 4(random statistic but I know the number is on the low side) have a scene not about males, that's it it's just pointing out a problem, people need to stop exaggerating what it is.

It takes alot of time for a publisher to rethink it's approach
However mass effect 3 hamfisted insertion of an ending which at most contains only only superficial elements of art heralds a disturbing new trend in video game development for me
Hopefully it does not come to pass but I can easily imagine many games attempting to force some deeper meaning into an otherwise shallow but no less enjoyable game
Maybe in 30 years publishers will realize being a hipster was popular at some point and will ironically make games about them

Also it seems to me that when feminists achieve true equality and I'm not about to stop them, that it just won't be enough for them. In any case the video game tropes vs women isn't a bold new step for feminism but rather somebody with a bone to pick and not a hint of constructive criticism, anything new or any in depth research in sight. It's only unfortunate that the group opposed to the creation of this dribble was spearheading by people with their heads stuck so far up their own rectum that they are incapable of not 'talking shit'.

Not to discredit Yatzhee's opinion, but his views seems to be limited to the medium. In truth, every medium has problems with excesses, it is just that most of them don't have technological jumps that can be count every few years. We should all remember how a lot of "in your face" scenes started to popup at the same time IMAX and 3D became more prominent, or how The Wizard of Oz uses colors to certain extremes, because technicolor became a more standard technology. When movies started having speech tracks, the more prominent genre were musicals, so that dozens of people could be heard at once.

At the same time, its not limited to technological jumps, but sequels has that problem too: Hangover has a baby, so Hangover 2 has a monkey (and Hangover 3 might have two baby monkeys); by the end of fellowship, our heroes battled hundreds of orcs, so by the second movie, the number was upped to tens of thousands, and the third could be counted on the millions; Goku fought robots, then demons, then aliens, then alien demons, then future robots, then future aliens, then alien demons, then alien robots, etc...

It's not the excess that bothers me. It's the dumbing down that goes along with it. Most games are no longer challenging. Instead of focusing on challenge they are focusing on big cinematic experience. You can see this perfectly in the latest Resident Evil 6 gameplay videos, or just about any military FPS. And everything is scripted. It pisses me off. I hate when developers add that pathetic "press button to turn around and watch this awesome explosion". Fuck off! I would use a mouse to turn around if I wanted to see it you fuckin' morons. OR those stupid in-game slow motion sequences. They ruin the immersion. Why the fuck would anyone want a slow motion sequence in the actual gameplay? Save it for cutscenes for fuck sake.

And then there's Deus Ex: Human Revolution, a shining beacon of hope, in the sea of stupidity and mediocrity. I just hope they make another one like it, with better boss battles and a better ending though.

He's got a good point. Maybe Ivy was always a bit on the slutty side, but look at what the Soul Calibur series did to SOPHITIA. We went from this:
image
...to THIS:
image
Nauseating, isn't it?

everyone needs to shut up about the 'bechdel test', beecause you're distracting from the most important thing ever posted onto the escapist. this business of MORE is a cancer in our world. did we REALLY need >60 million xbox 360 consoles, >90 million wiis, and >60 million PS3s? to generate all those tons of trash, dig all that raw materials out of the ground and ship them across the globe?

ms_sunlight:

Katya Topolkaraeva:
My point being this: women who hang out with other woman generally spend a lot of time talking about things that would make "feminists" cringe. Women who have intelligent things to say generally tend to prefer male company.

I think that's probably more to do with your circle of acquaintances than women in general. I talk about other stuff - politics, the economy, films, music, society, technology - with women I know all the time.

I'd like that to be the case. What i said though is based not just on my personal experience but also on many conversations i'v overheard other females have. A lot of different kinds of females (still personal experience, but you know what i mean). I am sure, obviously, this is not always the case, i just happen to think it tends to be the case rather startlingly often. Also i suspect it may be less the case in other countries. When i was in Europe i had much less problems having descent conversations with women.

I do agree with what he said that the industry is interested in outdoing itself. However i don't really think it's a problem. I just think it may be a bit better if they concentrate on outdoing themselves on things like, say, good game play or storytelling rather then big titties.

This push to excess is, I believe, driven almost solely by the lack of game designer's ability to tell a decent story. What is more compelling to the player - blowing up a city they've heard of or watching a character that they've connected with emotionally be murdered? Look at the beginning of tons of action movies (and a staggering number of Disney cartoons). That's exactly what they do (with Disney, it doesn't pay to be the parent of a protagonist - especially their mother).

With video games, you play a faceless character so that you can "put yourself in their place" in some way but the rest of the characters are all 2D cardboard cutouts of tropes. Do male players find scantily clad chicks titillating? Sure. But the same feelings (or even stronger ones) can be evoked with well written and fully clothed female character. It all comes back to story and how well the characters are written - a point that Yahtzee and others have harped on for years.

I love these columns, Yahtzee shows his true, intellectual colors.

I think the video game industry is suffering from a sever case of conservatism when it comes to non-indie titles. Rather than trying to integrate new concepts they just stick with existing ones. So where do you go when you make a sequel? More of the same just cranked up to 11. Go check out the Dead Space series if you don't get what I'm talking about. Either that or read this blog post on Aliens: Colonial Marines

http://caseygoddard.blogspot.jp/2012/06/less-is-more.html

Amnesia was somewhat overblown on it's tales of torture and violence, but oddly enough that was one of the weakest features. The atmosphere and badly rendered monsters that would 2-shot you were far more frightening.

The endless clamour for attention is worth the mention, and it's sad when derivative tactics get the most hullabaloo. It'd be nice if people would simply say 'huh, a stupid premise' and move on rather than filling internet forums with arguements that will generate awareness of a product, and consequentlly potential customers.

We're complaining about excess already?

We haven't even had a decent superman game yet.

There are hardly any games where you get to really take cities apart, let alone planets or anything like that...

Arcane Azmadi:
He's got a good point. Maybe Ivy was always a bit on the slutty side, but look at what the Soul Calibur series did to SOPHITIA.
Nauseating, isn't it?

It's nauseating? You don't like tits?

Most these games are examples of people trying to be XXTREME!!, an act the comic-book industry at least, stopped doing for most parts in the 90s. Take Mortal Kombat in example. They want to make games as violent as possible (within american pseudo-christian boundaries at least), and they follow up on this trend with sequels. If you compare the games without looking at the time-frame then you'll just see excess, but if you actually take a look at what is happening, you'll see that all they are doing is being consistent.

If only being good was what made video games a guaranteed success. Tell that to Bulletstorm. Or Psychonauts. Or Anachronox. Or anything by Zynga for that matter (from the other side, of course).

To quote Gene Wilder as regards who we're dealing with, slightly out of context, "You've got to remember that these are just simple [consumers]. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons."

DVS BSTrD:
Ugh, such a stupid system.

Not passing the Bechel Test doesn't mean it's a bad movie, it means it's male centric. That's like calling the Witcher 2 a bad game because it's misogynistic of Geralt to have casual sex with multiple women. In real life I'm pretty sure women talk about shoes, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that (unless that's ALL they talk about).[/quote]

Actually you calling The Witcher 2 misogynistic because Geralt has causal sex IS itself misogynistic. You are presuming that the women are not capable of having casual, no strings attached sex like a man can. Why are you sexist?

Mygaffer:

DVS BSTrD:
Not passing the Bechel Test doesn't mean it's a bad movie, it means it's male centric. That's like calling the Witcher 2 a bad game because it's misogynistic of Geralt to have casual sex with multiple women. In real life I'm pretty sure women talk about shoes, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that (unless that's ALL they talk about).

Actually you calling The Witcher 2 misogynistic because Geralt has causal sex IS itself misogynistic. You are presuming that the women are not capable of having casual, no strings attached sex like a man can. Why are you sexist?

I never said I was the one who thought Geralt having causal sex was misogynistic. I've seen some of the "encounters" online, and more than once its the women who are initiating it. They haven't been suckered in by promises of "commitment" or declarations of undying love, they just want to bump uglies. The only reason it appears misogynistic is because we're only seeing the story through Geralt's point of view and we don't get to see all the casual sex the women are having. Like I said: male centric.

DVS BSTrD:

Mygaffer:

DVS BSTrD:
Not passing the Bechel Test doesn't mean it's a bad movie, it means it's male centric. That's like calling the Witcher 2 a bad game because it's misogynistic of Geralt to have casual sex with multiple women. In real life I'm pretty sure women talk about shoes, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that (unless that's ALL they talk about).

Actually you calling The Witcher 2 misogynistic because Geralt has causal sex IS itself misogynistic. You are presuming that the women are not capable of having casual, no strings attached sex like a man can. Why are you sexist?

I never said I was the one who thought Geralt having causal sex was misogynistic. I've seen some of the "encounters" online, and more than once its the women who are initiating it. They haven't been suckered in by promises of "commitment" or declarations of undying love, they just want to bump uglies. The only reason it appears misogynistic is because we're only seeing the story through Geralt's point of view and we don't get to see all the casual sex the women are having. Like I said: male centric.

the problem is non existent because the story is, from the writer and creator of the witcher, at the core, based around geralt, so it is geralt who we were going to follow, long before the game was even being concepted. also, geralt is considered in his world, highly desirable(witcher physique + sterility), so it would make sense he would bonk as much as he does.

Arcane Azmadi:
He's got a good point. Maybe Ivy was always a bit on the slutty side, but look at what the Soul Calibur series did to SOPHITIA. We went from this:
*pic*
...to THIS:
*pic*
Nauseating, isn't it?

...I like it actually.

But hey, Soul Calibur has never been what you would call a 'classy game' right?

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