First Person Platforming

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bandman232:

Alakaizer:
I've found that the Metroid Prime series are pretty good first-person platformers. I think of them as platformers, because more of the point of the game is maneuvering through the world, whereas the enemies are just stuff to clear out of each room before you do so. I think that's the reason I have no problem playing the Prime trilogy, even though I suck at FPSs.

I don't really count the Metroid Prime trilogy as an FPS because it's more that just shooting an endless wave of Russians in a linear and boring landscape.

That's why I called it a first-person platformer. I suck at FPSs, but seem to do okay with FP platformers.

I've had absolutely no problem with the jumping puzzles in Quantum Conundrum or being aware of my position relative to the world.

Same goes for Mirror's Edge.

It might have to do with having a mouse to control the camera, finer, faster movements allow me to make a very accurate estimate about my position relative to everything else.

The only difficulty I find is getting used to the specific movement physics in every game (because it sure is different controlling Half-Life's 6 legged caffeine addicted triathlete from Thief 3's clunky body awareness mechanics). But that pretty much applies for any other game as well, regardless of perspective.

1nfinite_Cros5:

disappointed:
First Person Platforming needs different controls - namely a "jump when I run out of floor" button and a "jump to the place I'm looking at" button.

I'm actually in favor of this, but why don't we revise it a bit?

Since first person games are about lining up your sights and being as accurate as you can with them, why not do the same thing with platforming. If you look at a ledge you want to jump to in real life, you'll immediately be able to tell if you could make it or not, given your spatial awareness. Games to not offer this spatial feedback in the first-person perspective.

So how do we get it to work? Have the indicator at the center of your screen tell you if you can or not.

-When it lights up green and you press the jump button, your character will automatically make it to the jump.
-If it's yellow, you'll only be able to make it for a running jump, so a little more work is required, but it will function as good as green if you do it right
-If it's red, you can't make the jump at all and your character will miss if you attempt to do so.

This will make the flow of the game a lot better, because you're not busy meandering around trying to contemplate if you'll make it or not. Your character should already KNOW if the jump is do-able. Since this is an interactive medium and communication between the player and his character is vital, this is the only direction I think first-person platforming would work.

EDIT:
Also, if there are any would-be game designers reading this post, feel free to take this idea and experiment with it as soon as possible. I want YOU to be able to make a game where this will work. ;)

How about this- instead of the crosshair turning yellow (which is basically the game just hedging its bets) You keep it green and red, but change how it works based on the speed you're travelling. Just like real life, you can land a jump further when you're already moving, and you do it by having the game keep track of a 'jump radius' or something.

So when you're standing still, the maximum distance you can safely land a jump is, let's say, a meter and a half ('bout 4.5 feet). That's your standard jump radius. But when you start moving, the jump radius expands the faster you go, so when you're running at full tilt you may be able to make a jump of two metres or more.

The radius itself is invisible to the player- it's the crosshair that serves as the indicator. At any moment, pointing the crosshair on the ground inside the jump radius shows it as a friendly colour like green. On the ground beyond the radius it gets a hostile colour like red. When you're in midair or unable to jump, it's grey or something. There's still some 'will I won't I make it' tension when running towards a ledge, but just a few practice jumps on flat ground should allow the player to get the hang of it. Not to mention that seeing exactly when a crosshair turns to grey when reaching ledges will give the player a much better idea of exactly when to jump.

I'm guessing the skill required to be good at First Person Platformers is the same skill required to be good at precision racing games (being able to "know" where your extremities are without seeing them so you know how far to pull out to avoid somebody or when to jump off a ledge. Some people can do it, some can't).

Years ago Jumping Flash solved the first person jumping problem.

1. make all of the jumps short enough that a precise initial jump doesn't matter
2. make the camera look at YOUR FEET as you start to descend.

see here, first person jumping works just fine

Zachary Amaranth:

DVS BSTrD:
The only time I ever platformed in a first-person perspective was escaping the favela in MW2. The problem, as Yahtzee says, is the timing. With third person you can just wait until your character reaches the edge and THEN decide to jump. With first person you have to preset the moments you press the buttons based solely on your feel of the speed of the character. All your actions are more or less preset. And when your timing is off, you usually don't have an opportunity to reorient yourself. I got through the favela pretty easy on my first play through (I only had to retry it once because I missed the rope ladder at the end). When I went back and replayed the level however, I fell down so many times it seemed like the only reason the militia hadn't caught up and torn me to pieces was because the game felt sorry for me. Maybe it's just easier to remain aware of perspective when you're playing on a PC format.

But of a tangent, but I hate the way Yahtzee uses the word "immersive" here to describe FPS when the problem is that the perspective is the problem here, providing no actual sense of self--which is a problem specifically because it's less immersive.

But PC players complain about this in Mirror's Edge, too. A lot of the reviews have similar scores across PC and consoles, and basically say things to the effect of "the game is awesome despite the perspective." This isn't universal, but there are some filthy console peasants who do fine by ME on their inferior platform, just as a lot of PC players died a lot.

This was sort of my point. I actually managed to BEAT Dick Tracy for the NES, but it doesn't negate criticisms (like AVGN, for example). The game is broken, but not TOTALLY unbeatable, no matter what people say. And I was determined to get my allowance worth out of it.

Now, when people like the one I quoted at first point out that that had no problem with the controls, it's sort of like saying that Dick Tracy wasn't broken because I beat it. Or, more to the point, I've never had the Red Ring/DRE for my XBox/Playstation, so the respective consoles didn't have any problems.

I say this having not played a lot of Mirror's Edge, but it seems the overall effect is there.

And the thing is, people will defend First Person ANYTHING to the death these days, because it's what they're familiar with, not what necessarily makes a good game.

This whole attitude of "I liked X so that means it's perfect" really pisses me. There are a lot of books, movies and games that I love with a passion but that doesn't blind me to their faults. If you REALLY care about something, you accept it for what it is, warts and all. The whole recent situation _____ is a perfect example. Some people liked ______ and I suppose that's up to personal taste, but don't tell me "Oh you wouldn't have been satisfied with anything because the series is ending fanboy" or "_______ IS actually a choice and YOU just don't get it" or "Every play-through is different" just because YOUR standards have been set so fucking low you can accept such a contrived plot development as a conclusion. And don't bring artistic integrity into this because if the creators had any they would have put some fucking effort into this in the first place instead of writing such a cliche because they "intended it to polarize" or wanted it to be "memorable."

Sorry to bring that up again, but I wasn't able to express myself properly when it first came up.

First-person jumping puzzles don't work at all like real life, because of several factors.

Yahtzee did point out one critical thing; A human being has an innate sense of where most of their body is at any given moment. (I say most, because the amount of times I stub my toe on something suggests I'm not entirely clear on precisely where my toe is in relation to the environment around it. But overall, I know where my body is.)

The other thing, and it's a big one, is depth perception. Depth perception is associated with carnivores, but it is also associated with monkeys.

And why do they need it? Even those that mostly eat fruit? Because they have to be able to reliably judge the distance from one branch to another, or risk falling to their death.

Sound familiar?

So how about a first-person game?

Well, the sense of your own body is mostly based on sensations which are non-visual and which do not produce sound.

Since sound and vision are the only thing 99.9% of all games really deal with, that means you lose all sense of your own body ingame.

This is especially true in first-person, where you can no longer see your virtual body, (and in many cases don't technically even have one, just disembodied arms.)

So, there goes your sense of self.

What about depth perception? Depth perception is the main thing that allows you to accurately judge distances. Without it, your sense of distance becomes very inaccurate.

We're starting to get mainstream 3d gaming now, but it's still pretty hit & miss as a concept.
It stands to reason that the addition of reliable depth perception could really help with first-person platforming, but I don't think this has been put to the test so far. (The 3ds is the most obvious candidate for testing how much difference this makes, but someone would have to make a suitable game for it first.)

But anyway, 3d aside, you have no depth perception in a first-person game. That means not only do you not really know where, exactly your own body is, but you also cannot accurately judge distances.
So you don't really know where you are, and you don't really know how far it is to what you're trying to jump onto.
That really doesn't make for a good mix.

Incedentally, the depth perception issue likely explains the way most 2d platformers are set up. A side-on perspective with the thing you are trying to jump onto along the widest axis of the screen is the best possible setup for accurately judging distances when you have no depth perception.

3d platformers exploit this too. While some of the easier jumps can be done from other angles, a close look at the way 3rd person cameras are used (either automatically, or player controlled) will most likely show that the most complex jumps are more or less done with a camera perspective that approximates a 2d side-on view.
(Not exactly, of course, but close enough to make judging distances much more reliable.)

You just need a high fov and be able to see the body in first person, bu thas too dwemandwing fwo a gwame!

Couldn't agree more!

Precision platforming should be in third-person and so should melee-focused games.

Even in FPS's I tend to avoid using the melee weapon (unless it's the spy's knife in TF2 but even then I miss a lot) because I find it extremely hard to judge the range of the melee weapon. Platforming is a no-brainer...we can't see what we are standing on unless we look down and we can't see where we want to jump to unless we look up (or ahead). YOU CAN'T DO BOTH!

Mahoshonen:
Intersting that Yahtzee again mentions bullet hell games in EP, considering he hasn't reviewed one. I can see why he hasn't-they tend to be niche games rather than big releases. Still, I can only imagine what Yahtzee would have to say about the Touhou series.

To be fair, Yahtzee tends to stay far away from anything that oozes anime cliches from it's pores.

Shame Mirror's Edge went all out on the improbable fight scenes later on, at times forcing you to use the health regen as a crutch when pairs on enemies got "stuck" together. I still deem it a first person [parkour-themed] platformer over anything else, of which there are few other even vague attempts (Montezuma's Return, I guess).

I find great irony in the fact that the fight scenes were the problem in Mirror's Edge, whilst the plaforming near the end of Half-life was its problem. Is it a technical constraint that you can only really create a good interface for one or the other, or just developers maintaining a tight focus?

Alakaizer:
I've found that the Metroid Prime series are pretty good first-person platformers. I think of them as platformers, because more of the point of the game is maneuvering through the world, whereas the enemies are just stuff to clear out of each room before you do so. I think that's the reason I have no problem playing the Prime trilogy, even though I suck at FPSs.

I agree with you there! think Metroid Prime jumping is just great consequently i dont think that Quantum Conumdrum losses anything by being a First Perspective game. If you consider the jumping as part of the challenge, where the player learns progressively the limit of the character moves, then you dont mind dying a few times in order to perfect those jumps! it's not only luck that takes you accross! (at least that is my motto) With that mindset jumping platforms can easily be the main focus of the story!

Maybe the rumble feature could be used to warn the player in certain jumps?

Grahav:
Maybe the rumble feature could be used to warn the player in certain jumps?

Please no. Unless its a warning that if you pull that stunt again, your knees won't last past age 30.

pearcinator:
Couldn't agree more!

Precision platforming should be in third-person and so should melee-focused games.

Even in FPS's I tend to avoid using the melee weapon (unless it's the spy's knife in TF2 but even then I miss a lot) because I find it extremely hard to judge the range of the melee weapon. Platforming is a no-brainer...we can't see what we are standing on unless we look down and we can't see where we want to jump to unless we look up (or ahead). YOU CAN'T DO BOTH!

Nothing about Mirror's Edge is "precision". Like a few people have mentioned, it actually has a quite a wide margin for error in every jump and stunt in the game. If you miss the edge of a roof with your foot, Faith will slip off the edge and grab it with her hands to catch herself.

Also, melee weapons work just fine (and some cases, better) than in first person. Especially compared third-person over-the-shoulder. I will forever loathe Resident Evil 4 and Gears of War for popularizing the over-the-shoulder third-person perspective. There is absolutely ZERO reason that the character should block 1/3 of my vision at all times. Especially in games that depend on a keen sense of your surroundings and enemies (shooters, survival horror).

BRB, making a first-person shmup with breathing QTEs

1nfinite_Cros5:

disappointed:
First Person Platforming needs different controls - namely a "jump when I run out of floor" button and a "jump to the place I'm looking at" button.

I'm actually in favor of this, but why don't we revise it a bit?

Since first person games are about lining up your sights and being as accurate as you can with them, why not do the same thing with platforming. If you look at a ledge you want to jump to in real life, you'll immediately be able to tell if you could make it or not, given your spatial awareness. Games to not offer this spatial feedback in the first-person perspective.

So how do we get it to work? Have the indicator at the center of your screen tell you if you can or not.

-When it lights up green and you press the jump button, your character will automatically make it to the jump.
-If it's yellow, you'll only be able to make it for a running jump, so a little more work is required, but it will function as good as green if you do it right
-If it's red, you can't make the jump at all and your character will miss if you attempt to do so.

This will make the flow of the game a lot better, because you're not busy meandering around trying to contemplate if you'll make it or not. Your character should already KNOW if the jump is do-able. Since this is an interactive medium and communication between the player and his character is vital, this is the only direction I think first-person platforming would work.

EDIT:
Also, if there are any would-be game designers reading this post, feel free to take this idea and experiment with it as soon as possible. I want YOU to be able to make a game where this will work. ;)

Your system is detailed and color-coding is cool :)

American McGee's Alice had a simpler one where, if you aimed the dot marking the center of the camera view to a floating platform, footprints would appear if you could jump there. Pressing the jump button without altering your trajectory by pressing the movement keys would land you there precisely. Not so good for when you had to make running jumps for whatever reason, but the game also let you switch to third-person...

Having a contextual ledge jump button? How about having an unmodified run fling you off the edge of the platform (WHEEEEE!) a modifier key that changes your run into an arcing jump when you meet an edge and a second modifier key that kills your momentum and leaves you dangling off the edge of the platform? Heh, might be worthwhile being able to switch which is the default behavior and which are the modified ones, although playtesting could show that to be a headache...

Nice article. Good insights and very clear ideas. A tricky question: how does racing games fit in all this?

It's tricky because we tend to think everything in terms of space, position etc, so racing it might look like a precision first person game. Bare with me for a second, I have a point. Even though a racing game is a 3d environment you move a model/camera through it, in the end the road is usually designed in such a way that, from the perspective of the car at a certain speed, it becomes almost a 2d game. It's easier to see what I mean if we look at Enduro or any 16/8 bit race game: The road is a squiggly shaped thing from the bottom of the screen funneling to the center, and the player doesn't see it self as something moving forward, instead he sees the road shape changing in front of him, and change in shape moves the car/camera away from the center. The player has to balance this shape-induced force with whatever control scheme, usually disguised as break, acceleration, steering etc.

If the road is poorly designed the game will probably suck, unless additional information is given to the player somehow, like signs, mini maps or different cameras. Rock and Roll Racing comes to mind! The road isn't smooth, it's filled with abrupt curves, obstacles and projectiles. This game would never work with a camera that isn't top down.

All that just to say, racing games have nothing to do with what is being discussed. But I thought it was interesting nonetheless :P

Shieldage:

1nfinite_Cros5:
[quote="disappointed" post="6.381402.15025733"]First Person Platforming needs different controls - namely a "jump when I run out of floor" button and a "jump to the place I'm looking at" button.

I'm actually in favor of this, but why don't we revise it a bit?

Since first person games are about lining up your sights and being as accurate as you can with them, why not do the same thing with platforming. If you look at a ledge you want to jump to in real life, you'll immediately be able to tell if you could make it or not, given your spatial awareness. Games to not offer this spatial feedback in the first-person perspective.

So how do we get it to work? Have the indicator at the center of your screen tell you if you can or not.

-When it lights up green and you press the jump button, your character will automatically make it to the jump.
-If it's yellow, you'll only be able to make it for a running jump, so a little more work is required, but it will function as good as green if you do it right
-If it's red, you can't make the jump at all and your character will miss if you attempt to do so.

This will make the flow of the game a lot better, because you're not busy meandering around trying to contemplate if you'll make it or not. Your character should already KNOW if the jump is do-able. Since this is an interactive medium and communication between the player and his character is vital, this is the only direction I think first-person platforming would work.

EDIT:
Also, if there are any would-be game designers reading this post, feel free to take this idea and experiment with it as soon as possible. I want YOU to be able to make a game where this will work. ;)

I like it :) It's a different approach to Mirror's Edge but seems to serve the same purpose.

I also have a love-hate relation to Mirror's Edge, but this aspect they nailed! (they messed other things up) It actually tricks us into thinking there is precision jumping, but there isn't. It's like the racing gameplay I digressed previously. Basically, you aim where you want to go and the game does the rest. It even automatically jumps after reaching a ledge. But, again, not really precision platforming! There is some timing involved for pressing buttons, to slide under a pipe or grab ledge, but these actions are totally compatible with first person camera.

Yahtzee Croshaw:
You wouldn't turn the act of breathing into a quick time event.

Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit did exactly this. Granted, it was more about controlling your fear than your breathing, but still. I guess another reason why that game is silly.

I also felt that Mirror's Edge did the first-person platforming a lot better than most other first person games, in large part because you could actually see where your feet were in Mirrors Edge. What really puts the cherry on the first-person-jumping-puzzle-fail-o'-thon is when you keep falling off the platforms and mis-timing your jumps because you can't tell where the player is with respect to whatever they're standing on. If there's some kind of consistent visual indicator you can use to keep track of your position, first-person jumping puzzles are... workable.

Or you could just go the Tribes: Ascend route and just give everyone jetpacks.

Re: Yahtzee

Mirror's Edge works perfectly fine as a platformer once you get used to the nuances of the gameplay mechanics.

I have no problem booting it up whenever I feel like and free running around like a pro without missing a beat (or, more accurately, a jump) since I got used to the game mechanics of precision jumping. In a game like Deus Ex, on the other hand, I never got used to the platforming mostly because mastering that kind of skill wasn't required to progress.

Now, granted, the fact that Mirror's Edge probably needed to help you acclimatize better to precision jumping is probably a flaw, but your gripe is basically equivalent to complaining about a game involving making accurate headshots reflexively because you've never played a shooter in your life.

Unlike most games, there isn't an easy mode for you to pick in Mirror's Edge that makes jumping easier and that makes precision jumping require less precision. Is that a flaw of the medium? No, that's how you know you've created a fun game: you can't make it more or less difficult by a flip of a switch.

There's a reason the game gives you a free-roaming tutorial section for you to practice all manner of jumps and maneuvers at your leisure.

Zachary Amaranth:
People have said it about the console version, too. "I can do it" does not equate to "the mechanic is fine." I've played through a bunch of broken games in my life, and that does not make them okay. Of course, it's fun to blame those filthy console gaming peasants.

Similarly, "I can't do it" does not equate to "the mechanic is broken". Just because you aren't willing to put any time or effort into mastering an unfamiliar game mechanic does not mean it is broken.

k-ossuburb:
Another thing that's the problem isn't spatial awareness, it was momentum and speed. The controls need to be revised to give you a sense of weight. It shouldn't matter how big the ledge is, only how sure you are that you can fling your weight towards it, instead of a straightforward jump button there should be more complex moves which become context-based depending on what kind of surface you're on and your particular orientation.

You will never be able to "revise the controls" to "give a sense of weight" or "momentum", because the organ that senses such things is located in your ear and only works when you are actually moving. The understanding of whether you're able to make a jump in first person or not comes from practice: how long until the edge disappears from the bottom of your vision do you need to wait until you jump, and how far your jump reaches at max speed are things that must be practiced. These things need to be relearned in every video game because most have slightly different movement and you're missing half of the cues you normally rely on as a human being.

k-ossuburb:
What you're essentially doing is not really platforming, it's more of a cross between rhythm gaming and stringing together combos on a non-linear path. This would make movement less something to think about and fuss over and more enjoyable because you can feel confident that the system will do most of the work while all you've got to do is worry about the timing and picking which direction you want to go next. You'll still have control, but not in the traditional sense, it would be similar to how you think you've got control over Bayonetta when you're pulling off moves and combos, but there really is only a set list of things you can really do, so your level of control is limited by that. This is really no different; there's a set amount of tools handed to you, it's how you use them that's important.

So, to summarize: you want to take game mechanics which are suitable for third person action games, where you have a near infinite number of potential body movements but need to limit them down to a select few in order to make playing the game possible, and where the goal is not about executing the specific body motion flawlessly but rather simply telling your character to do the body motion at the right time, and insert it into a type of game where precise execution is the focus of the game?

The important facet about games like Mirror's Edge is that how you do things is as important as what you're doing, because how you do it dictates what specifically you do and more importantly how fast you do it, which is essential for speedruns.

Turning it into a game that's strictly context sensitive rather than context and execution sensitive serves no purpose but to dumb it down for no real reason.

Cerrax:
Nothing about Mirror's Edge is "precision". Like a few people have mentioned, it actually has a quite a wide margin for error in every jump and stunt in the game. If you miss the edge of a roof with your foot, Faith will slip off the edge and grab it with her hands to catch herself.

I take it you beat the campaign once and never touched it again?

It's fun and exhilarating to replay the campaign with better technique in order to attain a more seamless freerun, and precision is mandatory for success in speedruns.

Mirror's Edge was supremely well designed in that casuals could meander through the campaign at their own pace, but precision execution was visually and contextually rewarded to the extent that it was immediately obvious when the person who was playing was good. To require the precision you seem to be implying just to progress at all through the game would have been absurd; apparently some people (cough cough) are having trouble with the timing of long jumps, let alone achieving precision execution for all jumps.

Captcha: Jump off

Win.

With first person perspectives, you can eventually "learn" where your feet are in game. With a wide enough FOV, you can handle far better than real life (since you have super-human powers, don't suffer minor injury, and have no fear of death).

I disagree with yahtzee on his assesment that a FP POV cannot be a good platformer. I actualy hate third person POV and prefer first even platforming like in the Myst series or any FPS where I was trying to glitch my happy ass out of the boundaries.. if the game has a choice of first or third regardless of the genre i go for first.

I also find platform puzles to be better and more challenging to get right even if the puzzles were simpler. it's more challenging because the mechanics of jumping over a ditch is not a simple thing unless you can step over it. for third person POV the challenge is plain and simply timing on when to start running and when to jump on that complex puzzle. same thing but with the giant crutch of third person POV to make it simple!

Myself i just dislike jump mazes that will kill the player and think Yahtzee should harp on the shity reuse of the death pit crap rather than oops missed jump on moving platform #12 in a 14 platform jump maze and died on spiky plates just to repeat it all the 100th time(excluding the 100 times per plate prior).

anyway i would prefer to lose the jump maze of daeth and get a maze that is more complicated with each screwup making it more complicated and less timing but more thinking.

I agree, this is pretty much a rule that should be taught in game design universities and printed on signs in every developer's office.

However -

I am a Templar of Mirror's Edge, and my blind fanboy fanaticism decrees that I must defend it against all slander, no matter how worthy.
The 1st persion view made it more immersive, as noted. The jumping, besides a few Leap-from-roof-to-pipe-mounted-on-wall-of-other-building occasions, left a fairly sizable margin for error. This is probably why there are youtube vids of people skipping large sections of levels by doing some tricky jump that DICE didn't have in mind when they made the area. The viewpoint keeps it exciting, but jumping from building to building you usually clear the lip of the landing point by a good meter or so.
If first person platforming is to be done, it should be done like this - wider margins to account for lack of spacial perception.

I don't know if this is a fixable issue with current systems. Maybe if we had some kind of VR set up with a 360 degree FOV it would give players enough information to be comfortable with FP platforming. For now, I think Mirrors Edge is as good as it gets.

I had no problem with Mirrors Edge, and find it interesting that there's a divide. I look at it this way - I personally can't stand fighting games. They don't feel intuitive or interesting. But there are people out there who very clearly have a knack for them. I showed Skyrim to a friend a while back, and was shocked when he opted to play the game in third person. I wanted to tell him he was doing it wrong, but then I realized it all came down to player preference.

The first few hours of Mirrors Edge may have been awkward for me, but I don't even remember that. The controls feel great now that I'm used to it. I don't even like the idea of color-coding jumps, because that almost gives too much information to worry about. Mirrors Edge was about maintaining momentum and "feeling" out your movements rather than logically executing them knowing they'll succeed or fail. I actually like the risk and uncertainty! One of my favorite moments in Mirrors Edge is when you're trying to lose a helicopter in the scaffolding on a building, and you have to jump clear across a street section to get to the other scaffolding. You're making such a mad dash at that point that you don't stop and orient yourself to ensure success, you just keep running because you know you're PROBABLY going to make it. I don't think you could possibly make the parkour mechanics of Mirrors Edge work any better without eliminating what makes the game good for those of us that enjoyed it.

Combat was pretty shit though.

Deviate:
Quake 3 Arena both in normal matches and with the defrag mod (especially the defrag mod now that I think about it) proved quite clearly that platforming AND insane physics manipulation had absolutely insane potential.

First Person Platforming is fine... if the devs are half decent and the player isn't a concussed fucking marmot. Or a console peasant. A defrag run would look like some sort of sorcery to those creatures.

First Person Platforming thread and only one defrag drop. Tsk, tsk.

The first studio to reinvent DeFRaG into something marketable, namely, not requiring hundreds of hours of practice to enjoy, will probably spawn an entire niche. There really is a lot of room to do... stuff, with this. Yeah. Stuff.

lain:

Deviate:
Quake 3 Arena both in normal matches and with the defrag mod (especially the defrag mod now that I think about it) proved quite clearly that platforming AND insane physics manipulation had absolutely insane potential.

First Person Platforming is fine... if the devs are half decent and the player isn't a concussed fucking marmot. Or a console peasant. A defrag run would look like some sort of sorcery to those creatures.

First Person Platforming thread and only one defrag drop. Tsk, tsk.

The first studio to reinvent DeFRaG into something marketable, namely, not requiring hundreds of hours of practice to enjoy, will probably spawn an entire niche. There really is a lot of room to do... stuff, with this. Yeah. Stuff.

A full defrag game? Gods yes! I just had a brief erection and I will not apologize.
My personal favorite defrag/trickjump movie:

DVS BSTrD:

Sorry to bring that up again, but I wasn't able to express myself properly when it first came up.

It's cool, I get it a lot.

I'm a Harry Potter fan, but have several issues with the series, so people complain that I'm "hating" on the series. I mean, sure, I've got all the books (some three times, soon to be four when I have the cash to buy the Kindle editions), all the movies (Having watched them several times) and am nerdy enough to plan to purchase a wand based on the movie designs, but I really hate Harry Potter.

I don't get it much with games, but I SEE it a lot with games. The more popular, the more likely to be an issue. I mean, I don't really play Halo/COD/Battlefield, etc., so I miss a lot of it. I mean, hell, my brother's a huge MGS fanboy; when he played MGS4, however, his criticisms got him labeled a "hater" despite a love for the series.

It's not the sum total of what you're talking about, but "I like it, so fuck your criticisms" is a large chunk of it.

Hell, I honestly think that if you combined the PS3 and 360 you'd have a near perfect console. I don't really hate either, but to point out flaws is to immediately offend fanboys and possibly rally the other camp.

Yeah, it's annoying. I have this in my family, even. While I consider myself a liberal, some of my opinions are moderate, which means they piss off both sides of my family becaise I am OBVIOUSLY supporting the other. Oi with the poodles already.

DjinnFor:

Similarly, "I can't do it" does not equate to "the mechanic is broken". Just because you aren't willing to put any time or effort into mastering an unfamiliar game mechanic does not mean it is broken.

That's nice. However, as it doesn't specifically address me, I'm curious: Was your intent to strawman me, or to recite a completely meaningless platitude?

"You will never see a bullet hell shooter with a first person perspective, because the one piece of advice that works for all bullet hell shooters is to focus on yourself, not your target. You're going to be spraying fire everywhere anyway and accuracy doesn't matter so much as navigating a maze of projectiles. Melee-focused games tend to be third-person, too, because again, the most important thing is where the player is. Hopefully, the player is not surrounded by angry bastards, about to get their bum bitten off by a canny sod behind and to the left of them. This is what I didn't like about Dead Island having a first person perspective"

See I think Dead Island was going for the immersion that is best used in "survival" games, but Dead Island doesn't have much survival mechanics so it's more to do with bashing tons of zombies to death ala Dead Rising, just in a resort. I would be ok with it if the hit detection wasn't so shitty. When you swing you should be able to hit enemies to the left and right, not just the one on your crosshair.

This has probably been posted here before, but I played all the way through Mirror's Edge and I never had a problem with the precision platforming, as far as landing on something precisely went. My leaps of faith were either because I misjudged the distance I could jump or because I failed on purpose.

FF7 had a breathing "minigame" type thing... you want to talk annoying...

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but there's a problem with the complaints (both from Yahtzee and others) about Mirror's Edge.

I hate to have to say this, but if you can't tell where your feet are in Mirror's Edge, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

The game LETS YOU SEE YOUR BODY WHEN YOU LOOK DOWN. That's not just to make the game look pretty. While it's part of the reason, it isn't ONLY because it adds to the immersion when you're doing things either. It's a core element of what makes the platforming in the game work. Without it, the game WOULD be as broken as Yahtzee claims. With that one deviation from the usual, it works brilliantly if you learn to DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IN REAL LIFE.

When you're running up to jump off a ledge, you LOOK DOWN before the jump, to check the placement of your feet. In Mirror's Edge, to be consistent, you have to do WHAT YOU WOULD DO IN REAL LIFE. When you're running up to a ledge, look down to check the placement of your feet, and time your jump based on what you can see (but wouldn't be able to see in most first-person games). You're used to playing SHOOTERS, and you're use to shooters NOT having this functionality, so when a game comes along with the same perspective and similar controls, many people fail to recognise the importance of this apparently small change.

If you learn to NOT PLAY IT LIKE A SHOOTER WHEN IT ISN'T A SHOOTER, the game works exactly as it should, and the "impossible" jumps become comfortably challenging and well-designed. I don't like having to tell someone they're playing a game wrong, but in this case, it's true. Because you're treating a non-shooter game as a shooter. I could try and tell people that Thief: The Dark Project is a terrible and bad epic fail of an action game because it should be third-person and you need more health and a dodge button, because without those things, normal difficulty is nearly impossible if you do what you're meant to and run around killing all the enemies. I could then continue with my complaint that the higher difficulty levels put stupid restrictions on who you're allowed to kill and that defies the whole point of the genre. I don't, because I appreciate Thief for what it is, and don't try to pretend it's something else.

The only "bad" parts of Mirror's Edge are the forced combat encounters. Most combat is avoidable, but some of it requires pretty stupid abuses of the game's AI. I'd rather they had a more legitimate-seeming way to circumvent a couple of those encounters. I also wish there wasn't a boss fight where you have to perform a counter with not only a narrower window for success than any other counter in the game, but also one that requires completely differently timing from every other counterable attack in the game. It particularly doesn't help when there's a visual prompt telling you to counter at the wrong time.

The game could probably do with a loading screen tip or something else that actually points out that, unlike FPS games, looking down in Mirror's Edge is actually helpful for perspective and spatial awareness. But a bad tutorial doesn't necessarily mean the mechanics themselves are lacking.

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