Jimquisition: Let's End the FPS Sausage-fest

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ElPatron:

Treblaine:

ElPatron:

[troll-attempt removed for taste]

I think it would be an insult to have to explain you how the female body works.

You are right, it would be an insult and you have already been insulting, as knowing how the female body work is irrelevant to how close female performance is to males AS DEMONSTRATED.

First of all, I did not insult you.

Second, if you think a reaction video is trolling, you should grow a thicker skin. You're free to edit out a video because it's large, but trying to call me a troll is an Ad Hominem and a very poor defense too.

Not everything in this world is about you. Don't take yourself so seriously.

Treblaine:
Why would you have to explain the menstrual cycle when it IS trivial issue? The menstuation cycle does NOT disable women in any significant way, why do I have to explain that to you?

First, tell that to PE teachers in the whole world so that it stops being an excuse.

Second, I never mentioned physical disabilities so please stop with the straw-men right now.

It was trollish, it was not a video expressing your mere incredulity or disagreement, it was mocking and insulting. That's inflammatory. Here is a non trollish reaction video:

Here is a trollish one:

Now you know the difference, you have no excuse.

See you can tell by putting yourself in the shoes of the person it is directed at and imagine what it would be like to be on the receiving end, will it seem like they are expressing their stance or trying to belittle and denigrate?

I did coed sports in school and heard explicitly from every PE teacher in UK that they would not accept any stage of a healthy menstrual cycle as an excuse (much to their embarrassment) and it was not an issue when they did play. The PE teachers who excuse female who are on their period do to out of gratuity, not necessity. Menstruation hasn't been an issue with women in other physically active employment, including the military.

I never said you mentioned "physical disability". You said enough for me to raise the issue of physical disability - where I simply stated the facts - after you insultingly mocked me for stating 'it was trivial to military life' where such duties are most distinct by the physical ability required.

After all, you said you might have to "explain you how the female body works" as if I wouldn't know something as women's menstrual cycle. It seem it is YOU who doesn't understand how it effects women, you mocking laugh at the idea of women in the military because of their menstrual cycle.

Treblaine:
you mocking laugh at the idea of women in the military because of their menstrual cycle.

Your whole post was a gigantic straw-man that culminated here. You're not arguing with me, you're just making assumptions and arguing against them.

You're creating the issue and criticizing me for those issues, adding Ad Hominems to the mix. GG.

I know what trolling is and calling me a troll is a lame defense - not only you're implying you know my true colours trough simple text on the internet like if you were a supernatural polygraph, you're also intulting me.

Last time I checked none of us had the authority to decide whether Professor Farnsworth is trolling or not.

ElPatron:

Treblaine:
you mocking laugh at the idea of women in the military because of their menstrual cycle.

Your whole post was a gigantic straw-man that culminated here. You're not arguing with me, you're just making assumptions and arguing against them.

You're creating the issue and criticizing me for those issues, adding Ad Hominems to the mix. GG.

I know what trolling is and calling me a troll is a lame defense - not only you're implying you know my true colours trough simple text on the internet like if you were a supernatural polygraph, you're also insulting me.

Last time I checked none of us had the authority to decide whether Professor Farnsworth is trolling or not.

You are just listing irrelevant fallacies.

Where did I Straw-man (misrepresent your stance)?

Where did I use Ad Hominem ('shoot the messenger' rather than address the substance of the discussion)?

I don't know if you are a troll, and I never said if you were, but that response WAS Trollish in the sense it was inflammatory. See this is a straw-man right here, I directly challenge what you DID and then you are saying I am going on about WHAT YOU ARE! That was NOT my stance! I gave you are very clear indication of what was trollish and what was not. That is helpful and not insulting.

I have as much authority as you in judging what in inflammatory/trolling, as I have explained to you: put yourself in the other persons shoes, would they interpret it as insulting directed at them and denigrating. These here forum rules do have the "don't be a jerk" clause, and part of being a jerk is not doing to others what you wouldn't like done to you.

Treblaine:
You are just listing irrelevant fallacies.

Actually pretty relevant. The direction of the discussion swerved completely out of the path it was taking.

Treblaine:
Where did I Straw-man (misrepresent your stance)?

Just now, you accused me of ridiculing the idea of women in the military (which I support, and already happens in many countries) so that you could criticize me for it.

Treblaine:
Where did I use Ad Hominem ('shoot the messenger' rather than address the substance of the discussion)?

By calling me a troll and focusing on my intentions.

ElPatron:

Treblaine:
You are just listing irrelevant fallacies.

Actually pretty relevant. The direction of the discussion swerved completely out of the path it was taking.

Treblaine:
Where did I Straw-man (misrepresent your stance)?

Just now, you accused me of ridiculing the idea of women in the military (which I support, and already happens in many countries) so that you could criticize me for it.

Treblaine:
Where did I use Ad Hominem ('shoot the messenger' rather than address the substance of the discussion)?

By calling me a troll and focusing on my intentions.

Yes, it was taken off course by your petty little reaction video that in response you told me simply I "should grow a thicker skin", you clearly knew it was supposed to get at me personally and that I should just sit there and take it, now you are playing dumb as if you had no idea it was inflammatory.

And you DID direct a reaction video laugh at the statement that women shouldn't be excluded from the military for their menstrual cycles, that is the context that you cut out from that quote. That IS "ridiculing the idea of women in the military". No straw man. You are trying to squirm out of what you said rather than just issue a retraction. You have not made yourself clear if you meant something else than ridiculing the idea of women in the military.

Please go back to this post:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/6.382898.15182784

And explain what the hell you meant.

It's obvious what I meant, that Hormonal cycle in women like menstruation is TRIVIAL to their inclusion. What is so deserving of insulting laughter at that? Do you understand what the word "trivial" means?

I never EVER called you a troll. I labelled your video as trollish because it was, but that's doesn't define you as a troll.

RC1138:
Don't get into it with him. He argued with a Military Police officer for four pages about how women behave in the military, how likely women are to be in Special Operations units (given his extreme number of years of service in the military), how *soldiers* react and consider friendly fire, whether or not rape or even suicide are FAR bigger concerns for both the U.S. Military and the individual branches themselves, oh and the best, how being a paramedic, while an admirable position and job, in any way shape or form compares to being a soldier (where part of my job involves *me* shooting at someone, something I consider the hardest part, far harder than being shot at myself; the need to take life far outweighs the risk to one's own).

He is simply a kid, mind you he may be older than both of us, but maturity knows no number. He very much reminds me of the son arguing with his father over the ways of the world, grasping at experience he lacks and relying on things he's read or heard. And lest we forget, his only method of arguing is to attack the validity of the speaker, and feign personnel damages as if anyone cares what he feels, in either direction. It is funny that now two people, with conflicting views it seems, both came under fire from him for the same reason. Doubt he'll notice the irony.

Quit while ahead with him, and simply set him to ignore. There is no reason to waste cache space on his words.

Yes, I argued with facts that you ignored, and you just keep using the Fallacy of Argument From Authority. "I'm a Military Police Officer" doesn't rank your opinion over facts. I think cases like the tragic death of Pat Tillman where he was killed by friendly fire to spite no enemy gunfire in the area contradicts a lot of what you say about friendly fire never mistaking US small arms for insurgent small arks like AK47.

You make so many claims that are not backed up by facts and contradictory of the facts.

And what the hell, I never even discussed women in Special Operations Units. I discussed then in non-special forces and how even those are depicted in such video games.

You never said why a paramedic wasn't comparable with being a soldier in a way that was relevant. What possibly makes you conclude women can't kill when they are trained and ordered to?

Why have you come to a DISCUSSION BOARD if you keep citing your unproven credentials as a Military Police Officer as reason to NOT DISCUSS this. You seem to just want to tell people the way it is with zero dialogue, contradiction, sources or analysis.

I don't get this, you call me a "simply a kid" yet you are ignoring me, every reasonable thing I say you are ignoring me. That's not very mature.

What do you think you are proving by doing the electronic equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALALAA! I can't hear you!"?

Step back and take a look at the way you are acting.

Don't come on a DISCUSSION board to DICTATE. I'm trying to discuss things with you fairly, will you return the favour.

And here's why everyone was happy when Gears of War 3 introduced plyable female Gears. Sure, very few women play Gears of War but on the brink of extinction, it's kinda expected that you'd see some women running around toting guns and armour.

Treblaine:
Yes, it was taken off course by your petty little reaction video that in response you told me simply I "should grow a thicker skin", you clearly knew it was supposed to get at me personally

The reason you need a thicker skin is because you were egocentric to the point of assuming am here to have fun on your expenses. The reason you need a thicker skin is because you see personal attacks where they do not exist.

Treblaine:
And you DID direct a reaction video laugh at the statement that women shouldn't be excluded from the military

I never said they should be excluded.

Treblaine:
It's obvious what I meant, that Hormonal cycle in women like menstruation is TRIVIAL to their inclusion. What is so deserving of insulting laughter at that? Do you understand what the word "trivial" means?

The problem is that you hide behind the world "military" and try to run it like if it's all the same shit.

Listen to RC1138, because honestly he knows his shit better than I ever will.

ElPatron:

The problem is that you hide behind the world "military" and try to run it like if it's all the same shit.

Listen to RC1138, because honestly he knows his shit better than I ever will.

Thank you. While I don't agree 100% with, what I feel, was your selling the COD audience short (I could be misreading but it seemed along those classic lines). By all means indeed, I agree and am all to aware of the stereotype, "COD KIDDIE" the guy who only ever plays COD or it's ilk, thinks they are a Special Forces Operator and weapons expert because they reached the highest rank in MP, and doesn't know enough about history to separate what facts are indeed present in the games, from the fiction. That all said I cannot help but wonder if that's a very vocal minority or COD players and most have perspective and realize what is actually going on, and can separate out what is being realistically displayed, and what is being done for sake of convenience (my favorite of all time was the FAMAS in BLOPS being a model that wasn't released until 2009 (the game taking place in 1968-ish). I mean *I* know better, a number of people I've seen on these boards (and others) seem to know better. I know it's anecdotal (as honestly who would do an actual study on this) but I would be very surprised if MOST persons of the "COD Audience" are a little bit more self aware then perhaps they are given credit.

To the grander issue at hand, I also like to think most people, of either gender, can realize that the developers are not, not including female player-characters and even NPC not out of some misplaced ideal or even basic sexism, but because it really would not fit with what is trying to be told and displayed within the game. Of course there are sexist players, in BOTH directions I might add, that will use it as fodder for their argument, people with a degree of WORLD experience and *life* experience will know, and I believe do know, that those people will find fodder anywhere, they will say what they say no matter what you do. If all the world was equal, and there was no "allowed" discrimination between any disparage groups, there would still be people complaining, in both directions, and finding "evidence" to support their claims. It's human nature, you can't, and won't, change that. You have to deal with the world as it is (which I still think is the core issue here more than sexism, more than equal opportunity, it's just a grand lack of grounding) not how you think it ought to be.

RC1138:

ElPatron:

The problem is that you hide behind the world "military" and try to run it like if it's all the same shit.

Listen to RC1138, because honestly he knows his shit better than I ever will.

Thank you. While I don't agree 100% with, what I feel, was your selling the COD audience short (I could be misreading but it seemed along those classic lines). By all means indeed, I agree and am all to aware of the stereotype, "COD KIDDIE"

I believe that people complaining about it are even more annoying. Not only they keep drawing attention to CoD every time they post a rant, most times that rant was not asked for.

I don't believe it is anything new. Rambo and Arnold Schwarzenegger movies were full of BS (what about that Die Hard 2 movie? The Glock 7 is made of porcelain to pass trough metal detectors). Heck, ever heard about Gecko45, the original "mall ninja"? That was back in 2001, which is an eternity by internet standards. Back then people were bitching about Rainbow Six, which is a series that is praised for being more realistic than Call of Duty.

Like you said, people always find things to complain about.

ElPatron:

Treblaine:
Yes, it was taken off course by your petty little reaction video that in response you told me simply I "should grow a thicker skin", you clearly knew it was supposed to get at me personally

The reason you need a thicker skin is because you were egocentric to the point of assuming am here to have fun on your expenses. The reason you need a thicker skin is because you see personal attacks where they do not exist.

Treblaine:
And you DID direct a reaction video laugh at the statement that women shouldn't be excluded from the military

I never said they should be excluded.

Treblaine:
It's obvious what I meant, that Hormonal cycle in women like menstruation is TRIVIAL to their inclusion. What is so deserving of insulting laughter at that? Do you understand what the word "trivial" means?

The problem is that you hide behind the world "military" and try to run it like if it's all the same shit.

Listen to RC1138, because honestly he knows his shit better than I ever will.

That's not how the term "thick skin" works. And I think you know that.

You laughed at their inclusion. You are using weasel words.

What precisely is the problem with my use of the term "military"? I have made myself clear and it is obvious to you that I mean "Infantry". I have refuted everything that RC1138 has claimed and now he is ignoring me with great immaturity. Well I think he is ignoring me for one reason and that is that he cannot explain his poor logic and inconsistency with the facts.

RC1138:

To the grander issue at hand, I also like to think most people, of either gender, can realize that the developers are not, not including female player-characters and even NPC not out of some misplaced ideal or even basic sexism, but because it really would not fit with what is trying to be told and displayed within the game. Of course there are sexist players, in BOTH directions I might add, that will use it as fodder for their argument, people with a degree of WORLD experience and *life* experience will know, and I believe do know, that those people will find fodder anywhere, they will say what they say no matter what you do. If all the world was equal, and there was no "allowed" discrimination between any disparage groups, there would still be people complaining, in both directions, and finding "evidence" to support their claims. It's human nature, you can't, and won't, change that. You have to deal with the world as it is (which I still think is the core issue here more than sexism, more than equal opportunity, it's just a grand lack of grounding) not how you think it ought to be.

What is trying to be depicted? Certainly not a sense of authenticity. What if what is trying to be depicted is a macho mens only club then is this really commendable? Do we really want this?

What spurious logic, you are saying it is human nature to complain regardless of if there is anything to actually complain about as reason to ignore them. That doesn't mean you can dismiss anything on the assumption there is nothing to dispute.

You think sexism or equality aren't the problem but a lack of grounding... oh and you are grounded because you went to West Point and we aren't. No matter how much I've sought to inform myself from reliable sources like Janes rather than COD, you seem to suggest a Heinlein idea of military supremacy of sociatal worth.

The problem is you constantly deny evidence, you ADMIT to wilfully ignoring it, wilful ignorance. You refuse to hear or consider anything I say which is just immature.

Are you going to keep going with the Dictating thing? I suppose that is something you have in common with so-called-feminist Anita Sarkeesian, you ignore your detractors, you denigrate and dismiss them. You cite credentials ("I went to college/west-point") rather than give reasons that stand on their own merit.

ElPatron:

Like you said, people always find things to complain about.

And complaining about even the IDEA of women depicted in War FPS games? How does that nit-picking make you any different from complaining about how unrealistic it is having women in an Infantry role in the military.

I mean Captain Price smokes a cigar, often and even immediately before an operation. It absolute peak physical condition like the 5-10% difference between men and women is needed, why the hell is he smoking? As THAT impairs your physical ability more than not-having-testicles! But if the performance loss of chronic carbon-monoxide poisoning and emphysema aren't an issue, and it suits the artist's aesthetic, then why does this apply to smoking but not female presence?

And Price's beard. Looks awesome, super manly, but totally impractical for use with a full-face gas-mask. RC1138 goes on endless rants about how women would never ever ever be allowed in certain infantry forces, would he be so bullish in shaving off Price's macho beard to conform with much more practical regulations that you must have a clean shaven face.

Treblaine:
What precisely is the problem with my use of the term "military"? I have made myself clear and it is obvious to you that I mean "Infantry".

No, I was not obvious. When I think of military, I think about the National Guard, Coast Guard, helicopter pilots, on-board navigators, sailors, gunners, medics, MPs, firemen, mechanics, air traffic controllers, divers, EOD, paratroopers, etc etc etc.

Treblaine:
And complaining about even the IDEA of women depicted in War FPS games? How does that nit-picking make you any different from complaining about how unrealistic it is having women in an Infantry role in the military.

Uh, I was clearly talking about Rainbow Six and Call of Duty. I'm sorry for using the same words as him if it's such a big deal, but how about not arguing with me about things other people said?

Treblaine:
I mean Captain Price smokes a cigar, often and even immediately before an operation. It absolute peak physical condition like the 5-10% difference between men and women is needed, why the hell is he smoking? As THAT impairs your physical ability more than not-having-testicles! But if the performance loss of chronic carbon-monoxide poisoning and emphysema aren't an issue, and it suits the artist's aesthetic, then why does this apply to smoking but not female presence?

1. Cpt. Price also is clearly old so his skills are more important than peak physical condition. I mean, many forces actually put their trainees trough regimes so intense they lose a lot of muscle weight. They are not normal infantry. It's not about the muscles. It's about how long can you swim underwater. How well can you think and plan, and how well you can survive in the jungle if you have to. How long can you hold up during torture if you're captured. How high can you climb a mountain with a broken limb. I mean, people in the Special Forces are not meatheads. They usually study several languages and know more about plants than you or it.

2. Then it might depend on the mask. I don't know a lot of masks and I admit I can't even identify the one in the game, but I have worn a few with a beard and it's not impractical. Some times operatives are encouraged to sport a beard because of the country they might operate it.

3. Captain Price was alive back in WWII. Are we seriously going to argue about Price in-depth?

4. If the author's view is so important, why are we even arguing about his work?

Treblaine:
And Price's beard. Looks awesome, super manly, but totally impractical for use with a full-face gas-mask. RC1138 goes on endless rants about how women would never ever ever be allowed in certain infantry forces, would he be so bullish in shaving off Price's macho beard to conform with much more practical regulations that you must have a clean shaven face.

If there was a change of Price being sent to an Arab country then he would be granted an exception to the grooming standards.

ElPatron:

No, I was not obvious. When I think of military, I think about the National Guard, Coast Guard, helicopter pilots, on-board navigators, sailors, gunners, medics, MPs, firemen, mechanics, air traffic controllers, divers, EOD, paratroopers, etc etc etc.

1. Cpt. Price also is clearly old so his skills are more important than peak physical condition. I mean, many forces actually put their trainees trough regimes so intense they lose a lot of muscle weight. They are not normal infantry. It's not about the muscles. It's about how long can you swim underwater. How well can you think and plan, and how well you can survive in the jungle if you have to. How long can you hold up during torture if you're captured. How high can you climb a mountain with a broken limb. I mean, people in the Special Forces are not meatheads. They usually study several languages and know more about plants than you or it.

2. Then it might depend on the mask. I don't know a lot of masks and I admit I can't even identify the one in the game, but I have worn a few with a beard and it's not impractical. Some times operatives are encouraged to sport a beard because of the country they might operate it.

3. Captain Price was alive back in WWII. Are we seriously going to argue about Price in-depth?

4. If the author's view is so important, why are we even arguing about his work?

If there was a change of Price being sent to an Arab country then he would be granted an exception to the grooming standards.

I told you, you shouldn't waste your time, and that's all he is, a waste of time, arguing with him. He typifies my personnel definition of "COD Kiddies" those individuals who play COD or one of it's ilk and come to the belief they know ANYTHING, and I mean anything, about how Special Operation communities work and function (or firearms technology, or military terminology, or Operations in general).

Most people in *most* militaries Smoke. It is in fact a growing problem in both the American and Armies of Great Britain. It's a true problem. You can't walk on a base or FOB for two seconds without seeing a "Quit Today" Poster (and on FOB's, said posters have a bunch of graffiti on them usually). Actually it's more disconcerting to not see MORE soldiers smoking in these games (granted you rarely see them in situations as in the beginning of COD4).

You can wear a gas mask with a beard. I have a beard and an old M40 gas mask and I can get a perfectly fine seal around it (and Price's beard doesn't extend to the zones where it would present a problem as in under the chin and neck).

As far as Price himself is concerned, he is not the same Price from COD1 and COD2. He is suggested to in fact be his grandson.

http://callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Price

It's a spoiler for a nearly 10 year old game but I'll say it anyway, the Price from WWII is killed aboard the Tirpitz in the first game (his appearance in COD2 are previous to this mission, taking place in North Africa)

Beards in general, in MANY conflict regions around the world (Namely parts of North Africa, the middle East, Russia (at least South West where most of the COD4 missions take place) are seen as signs of authority and most importantly, seniority (as they are in most places on Earth). Captain Price, being indicative of a SENIOR, and EXPERIENCED, Special Operations Officer, would be all too aware of this and the benefits it can impart.

I wouldn't be, hmm, bullish in shaving it, at least at the time of COD's make and release, as the give a distinct advantage to in country troops. Special Operations Troops LIVE in the field, often with the very people they are getting information from. Shaving is not practical (a razor is one more thing to carry) and the aforementioned advantages are distinct.

Now had it been an MP unit, or regular Infantry unit, you bet your ass I would object to it, but Special Operations is called *Special* for a reason. They are given more leeway because their jobs demand it.

RC1138:
As far as Price himself is concerned, he is not the same Price from COD1 and COD2. He is suggested to in fact be his grandson.

I understand that, I just think that using a fictional character that exists in MW because of his important role in previous Call of Duty games to complain about unrealistic points isn't exactly fair. The man is Chuck Norris in the CoD world and a modern-day homage to WWII heroes.

I would be pedantic to criticize the whole Aliens franchise because of Ron Perlman's "Die motherfucker!!!!" in the fourth film.

ElPatron:

Treblaine:
I mean Captain Price smokes a cigar, often and even immediately before an operation. It absolute peak physical condition like the 5-10% difference between men and women is needed, why the hell is he smoking? As THAT impairs your physical ability more than not-having-testicles! But if the performance loss of chronic carbon-monoxide poisoning and emphysema aren't an issue, and it suits the artist's aesthetic, then why does this apply to smoking but not female presence?

1. Cpt. Price also is clearly old so his skills are more important than peak physical condition. I mean, many forces actually put their trainees trough regimes so intense they lose a lot of muscle weight. They are not normal infantry. It's not about the muscles. It's about how long can you swim underwater. How well can you think and plan, and how well you can survive in the jungle if you have to. How long can you hold up during torture if you're captured. How high can you climb a mountain with a broken limb. I mean, people in the Special Forces are not meatheads. They usually study several languages and know more about plants than you or it.

2. Then it might depend on the mask. I don't know a lot of masks and I admit I can't even identify the one in the game, but I have worn a few with a beard and it's not impractical. Some times operatives are encouraged to sport a beard because of the country they might operate it.

3. Captain Price was alive back in WWII. Are we seriously going to argue about Price in-depth?

4. If the author's view is so important, why are we even arguing about his work?

Treblaine:
And Price's beard. Looks awesome, super manly, but totally impractical for use with a full-face gas-mask. RC1138 goes on endless rants about how women would never ever ever be allowed in certain infantry forces, would he be so bullish in shaving off Price's macho beard to conform with much more practical regulations that you must have a clean shaven face.

If there was a change of Price being sent to an Arab country then he would be granted an exception to the grooming standards.

Well then we have an inconsistency, if it isn't about being physically excellent, they why is it so unacceptable to have women in such roles when the only objection is that they aren't quite as physically superior? It gets even worse in MW2, Soap is seen stopping to smoke a could of cigarette... while climbing a mountain. Tian Shan mountain range is mostly over 15'000 feet, that is where altitude sickness from the thin air with low oxygen content per breath makes everything extremely difficult unless you are well acclimatised and SMOKING is disastrous for that. It's like downing shots of neat vodka before performing delicate brain surgery.

I don't actually have a problem with this smoking, it fits. But this shows what would also fit, a female role on such combat missions. And you can't cite slight physical disadvantage in general with women yet give a pass to smoking because it looks cool. I am arguing not with this particular author's view, no one game has to include any females, but when they seem to completely disappear from FPS video gaming that is a concern. Though it's most poignant with Aliens Colonial Marines with no Vasquez. That's mainly where one author is conflicting with another author's work in adaptation.

PS: Captain price of COD4 is the son of COD2's Price if anything.
CoD2 is not in the same canon as CoD4. There wasn't even canon between COD1 and COD2 as in COD1 a Captain Price is seen to die in 1942 then is apparently seen alive again in 1944. Even if it was all the same canon, it makes more sense that Captain Price of COD4 is a descendent, not the same person. After all, there was a flash back in COD4 where he described himself as a "young lieutenant", the character in COD4 is not ageless. It's not even the same character, less "tally ho" and more "Faaawwking Heww".

I DO know gas masks and they do not work with a beard, you need a seamless skin-to-rubber seal right around the face. If there is a gap air gets sucked in when you breathe in via that gap rather than the filter which resists airflow a lot.

I wouldn't have a problem with the beard in itself especially for how many operational requirements allow or recommend a beard... buuuut we first meet Captain price in training and then again on the first mission where a gas mask is a requirement.

But other than that, I don't have a problem with the beard to spite "Rules unt regulations" because it adds something to the game. That's the same reason why I'd like to see a female role in such games to spite how there is little precedent and currently even rules against females in combat.

What Jim has said still stands. RC1138 may complain vociferously about this (and then complain about people complaining) that you can't have women in such roles for authenticity to certain rules and biology, when there principals have repeatedly been broken already.

Treblaine:
Well then we have an inconsistency, if it isn't about being physically excellent, they why is it so unacceptable to have women in such roles when the only objection is that they aren't quite as physically superior?

I have stated that standards should be the same (if the purpose is having more recruits, why not recruit males who are 5-10% under the current standards?) for equality's sake. My objection was never about physical superiority, different standards are just a gripe.

Treblaine:
It gets even worse in MW2, Soap is seen stopping to smoke a could of cigarette... while climbing a mountain. Tian Shan mountain range is mostly over 15'000 feet, that is where altitude sickness from the thin air with low oxygen content per breath makes everything extremely difficult unless you are well acclimatised and SMOKING is disastrous for that. It's like downing shots of neat vodka before performing delicate brain surgery.

On the other hand, if Soap was still inexperienced his smoking could have been justified by the "HURR DURR I'M A MAN AND I CAN TAKE IT, ADD MORE 30LB TO MY RUCKSACK BECAUSE I CAN TOUGH IT UP".

However that doesn't slide because Soap is a Captain and he was supposed to discourage that behavior.

Treblaine:
I don't actually have a problem with this smoking, it fits. But this shows what would also fit, a female role on such combat missions. And you can't cite slight physical disadvantage in general with women yet give a pass to smoking because it looks cool.

Then I'll address issues pertinent to Special Forces:

The female skeletal system is less dense, and more prone to breakages.

1^ Effect of Isokinetic Strength Training and Deconditioning on Bone Stiffness, Bone Density and Bone Turnover in Military-Aged Women[dead link]
2^ "Stress Fractures in Female Army Recruits: Implications of Bone Density, Calcium Intake, and Exercise - Cline et al. 17 (2): 128 - Journal of the American College of Nutrition". Jacn.org. Retrieved 2012-02-09.

"Female soldiers [are], on average, shorter and smaller than men, with 45-50% less upper body strength and 25-30% less aerobic capacity, which is essential for endurance"

^ a b Women in Combat: Frequently Asked Questions. Center for Military Readiness. November 22, 2004.

Endurance is much more important for Special Forces than strength.

These are important issues. However, I also have other personal concerns.

> Special Forces might not identify themselves, which means they have no recognized uniform. In the event of capture, the enemies might take the liberty of not following the conventions because of that reason. What happens to a man is bad, what might happen to a woman is worse.

> Menstruation. It's not the best thing to go trough when you're running in a jungle, trying to escape from combat dogs with a powerful sense of smell and crossing rivers where a bleeding might attract unwanted attention from the natural fauna. Honestly, certain parts of the cycle are not the best ones to have people shooting at you - anemia has been linked to blood loss during menstruation. Okay, menstruation can be suppressed. Honestly that would be a good solution if it doesn't cause long term damage. I haven't read studies about that so my bad.

> Lt. Col. Dave Grossman "also notes that Islamic militants rarely, if ever, surrender to female soldiers"

Heck, there are so much more but they are too trivial to be mentioned. I think these suffice.

Treblaine:
I DO know gas masks and they do not work with a beard, you need a seamless skin-to-rubber seal right around the face. If there is a gap air gets sucked in when you breathe in via that gap rather than the filter which resists airflow a lot.

That's why I said I don't know all masks. There are some that protect the whole head, however they are not the ones used in the game.

Treblaine:
That's the same reason why I'd like to see a female role in such games to spite how there is little precedent and currently even rules against females in combat.

And I agree with that, because females can see combat if they are not dedicated infantry. The problem is that Infinity Ward and Treyarch are too focused on the "HURR DURR SPESHIUL FORCES!" factor.

TF141 is fictional. While the backstory of Price and Soap would not allow for them to be females, it would be possible for TF141 to have females.

RC1138:

I told you, you shouldn't waste your time, and that's all he is, a waste of time, arguing with him. He typifies my personnel definition of "COD Kiddies" those individuals who play COD or one of it's ilk and come to the belief they know ANYTHING, and I mean anything, about how Special Operation communities work and function (or firearms technology, or military terminology, or Operations in general).

How am I a "COD kiddie"?

I don't play COD any more because I don't like it after giving it more than its fair chance on PC and Console. I find the scoring is inherently flawed and the game-play is unbalanced no to mention with hot-spawning. The weapons utterly fail on authenticity and overall I despair at the series but I only cite it for it's popularity, how it sets the standards for War FPS games.

I only seem to be a waste of your time because I contradict your Dictates and point out the holes in your argument, you act as if you time here is to lecture everyone and then be showered with praise. Well sorry, but this is a discussion forum. I have been reasonable, logical and on point. But you just can't be mature enough to enlighten people and show consideration in a constructive discussion.

What part of firearms technology have I been ignorant of? None. You make up my claims about things like M16s or Red-dot/Reflex sights.

What Military terminology have I so misunderstood you don't even seem worth explaining??!??

What "Operations" do I critically lack knowledge of how they work and function?

What I know about Special operations I know from reading biographies of the men who served under such commands and other such books and with talking with a few people who have served in such roles. Certainly not from video games.

So stop your snide personal attacks. And stop ignoring my counter-arguments and my requests for you to explain yourself!

You know what, in the past week I have seen you Forum Health Meter go from completely clear to Three Warnings.

ElPatron:

Treblaine:
Well then we have an inconsistency, if it isn't about being physically excellent, they why is it so unacceptable to have women in such roles when the only objection is that they aren't quite as physically superior?

I have stated that standards should be the same (if the purpose is having more recruits, why not recruit males who are 5-10% under the current standards?) for equality's sake. My objection was never about physical superiority, different standards are just a gripe.

Treblaine:
It gets even worse in MW2, Soap is seen stopping to smoke a could of cigarette... while climbing a mountain. Tian Shan mountain range is mostly over 15'000 feet, that is where altitude sickness from the thin air with low oxygen content per breath makes everything extremely difficult unless you are well acclimatised and SMOKING is disastrous for that. It's like downing shots of neat vodka before performing delicate brain surgery.

On the other hand, if Soap was still inexperienced his smoking could have been justified by the "HURR DURR I'M A MAN AND I CAN TAKE IT, ADD MORE 30LB TO MY RUCKSACK BECAUSE I CAN TOUGH IT UP".

However that doesn't slide because Soap is a Captain and he was supposed to discourage that behavior.

Treblaine:
I don't actually have a problem with this smoking, it fits. But this shows what would also fit, a female role on such combat missions. And you can't cite slight physical disadvantage in general with women yet give a pass to smoking because it looks cool.

Then I'll address issues pertinent to Special Forces:

The female skeletal system is less dense, and more prone to breakages.

1^ Effect of Isokinetic Strength Training and Deconditioning on Bone Stiffness, Bone Density and Bone Turnover in Military-Aged Women[dead link]
2^ "Stress Fractures in Female Army Recruits: Implications of Bone Density, Calcium Intake, and Exercise - Cline et al. 17 (2): 128 - Journal of the American College of Nutrition". Jacn.org. Retrieved 2012-02-09.

"Female soldiers [are], on average, shorter and smaller than men, with 45-50% less upper body strength and 25-30% less aerobic capacity, which is essential for endurance"

^ a b Women in Combat: Frequently Asked Questions. Center for Military Readiness. November 22, 2004.

Endurance is much more important for Special Forces than strength.

These are important issues. However, I also have other personal concerns.

> Special Forces might not identify themselves, which means they have no recognized uniform. In the event of capture, the enemies might take the liberty of not following the conventions because of that reason. What happens to a man is bad, what might happen to a woman is worse.

> Menstruation. It's not the best thing to go trough when you're running in a jungle, trying to escape from combat dogs with a powerful sense of smell and crossing rivers where a bleeding might attract unwanted attention from the natural fauna. Honestly, certain parts of the cycle are not the best ones to have people shooting at you - anemia has been linked to blood loss during menstruation. Okay, menstruation can be suppressed. Honestly that would be a good solution if it doesn't cause long term damage. I haven't read studies about that so my bad.

> Lt. Col. Dave Grossman "also notes that Islamic militants rarely, if ever, surrender to female soldiers"

Heck, there are so much more but they are too trivial to be mentioned. I think these suffice.

Treblaine:
That's the same reason why I'd like to see a female role in such games to spite how there is little precedent and currently even rules against females in combat.

And I agree with that, because females can see combat if they are not dedicated infantry. The problem is that Infinity Ward and Treyarch are too focused on the "HURR DURR SPESHIUL FORCES!" factor.

TF141 is fictional. While the backstory of Price and Soap would not allow for them to be females, it would be possible for TF141 to have females.

Well smoking kills your endurance more than anything. Even one cigarette. It's only societal conventions that we aren't more alarmed by smoking, it is like spending 20 minutes in a room that is so thick with smoke you can't see your hand in front of your face and breathing deeply, every breath is so thick with smoke and only ONLY because of Nicotine's pleasure inducing and soothing/stimulating properties and addiction does it over-ride the body's natural tendency to cough and splutter and do anything to stop inhaling this smoke. Nicotine is a hell of a drug, it may not give a pleasure high but the effects it has on stress. Well what I dislike most about smoking is it gives a short term de-stress but in the long term you are more stressed out and needing to smoke almost as much as you can to de-stress. And evidence points that is makes PTSD worse. Oh dear. But the Military can't have a ban on smoking, for such a large volunteer Armed Forces they can't risk losing so many smoking soldiers or recruits.

"Menstrual bleeding might attract unwanted attention from the natural fauna"

Lol, you can't actually be claiming that? Not seriously... right?

I don't think periods are seriously a problem as Sniffer dogs have already been proven to be excellent almost unbeatable trackers of men who are not bleeding at all as dogs don't sniff for blood but human sweat that has a very distinct and aerosolised "aroma" that blood does not have.

In the recent war on terror and other operations, Al Qaeda and Taliban rarely if ever surrender to ANYONE. And when they do, not always but far too often it is only a ruse in a suicide attack. Also special forces don't take prisoners and they have no capacity to detain and extract them. Surrender used to be a relief that a fight ends early, now it's a dilemma for how often it is an explosive trap.

The Normal Distribution of average female strength would mean that less women would reach requirements, not that none ever would and that there should be a ban on them even applying. Remember in the 1970's it was established that women were just not as smart as men, but for a while now females have been equalling males in school and the trend is continuing with them edging ahead of them in fields like maths, science and engineering. Millions of women are qualifying with highly technical degrees and they are not being utilised. I studied Biochemistry at University and easily half the undergraduates were female. 30 years ago it would have been less than 5% female if any at all.

Treblaine:

"Menstrual bleeding might attract unwanted attention from the natural fauna"

Lol, you can't actually be claiming that? Not seriously... right?

Okay, piranhas might be more interested in panicked animals creating ripples in the water, but if you have to cross a river filled with God knows what I'm sure there will be animals attracted to bleeding.

This if you can actually suppress mood changes. Because having witnessed several periodic mood swings I would not want to face the situations I have read in Steve Deveraux's/Chris Ryan's books if a woman was having her period. There are so many jobs in the military where menstruation is trivial, why the hell the Special Forces...? Of all places...

Say what you want about this opinion of mine, I just think it would be safer if we actually were sure we were suppressing mood changes before sending them to special operations.

Treblaine:
The Normal Distribution of average female strength would mean that less women would reach requirements, not that none ever would and that there should be a ban on them even applying.

I know how statistics work and I don't see how that relates to women being smart.

But the SAS selection is a situation where you have to leave because of an injury isn't too surprising.

I mean, the bone structure of men is different than women's. Our center of gravity is closer to where the chest and shoulders are. That's why men hump stuff on their backs.

Women would be theoretically in disadvantage when it comes to the equipment they can carry on the backs, requiring more weight on the hips when they have to carry the same weight as men. It also means they will have more trouble if they have to carry a wounded man with them.

Not only that, their hips and knees are more prone to stress injuries. Sometimes in the special forces you might have to jump from an helicopter, fall from a tree, etc.

I definitely would like if the best women in the military were handpicked to participate in special forces selection, training and exercises. Just to find out if it's possible or not to allow them to apply. I think testing would be required to figure out how to handle having women dressed in the same clothing for three weeks in a row and with no hygiene capabilities.

ElPatron:

I definitely would like if the best women in the military were handpicked to participate in special forces selection, training and exercises. Just to find out if it's possible or not to allow them to apply. I think testing would be required to figure out how to handle having women dressed in the same clothing for three weeks in a row and with no hygiene capabilities.

As it stands, in 2012, there is only ONE unit that allows applicants for female soldiers to join and become OPERATIONAL, that is, for example, a designated marksman, or an entry team leader, or the like, in a Special Operations Unit, and that is German KSK. So far, as of 2012, NOT ONE SINGLE woman has *ever* passed (and many have tried) the nessasary physical or mental requirements to become a member. So, as it stands, there is no place for a female soldier in a Special Operations, Operational, position.

Also, as far as, hmm, menstruation is concerned, speaking as a deployed soldier in a COED unit, there are certain hygienic that can lead to infection that women are *far* more susceptible to, and being even on a FOB this can become an issue, I cannot imagine being in the field for months at time would be any better.

The dissertation that women could function in this environment is a *disservice* to women in uniform, as you are expecting them to do something that is simply impossible (hence why it has not been done yet) and would needlessly endanger her, and anyone around her's, life. All for what? Does anyone honestly think anyone in SOCOM thinks women should NOT be in Operational Positions is because they view it as the last "boys club?" Are you that deluded?

ElPatron:

Treblaine:

"Menstrual bleeding might attract unwanted attention from the natural fauna"

Lol, you can't actually be claiming that? Not seriously... right?

Okay, piranhas might be more interested in panicked animals creating ripples in the water, but if you have to cross a river filled with God knows what I'm sure there will be animals attracted to bleeding.

This if you can actually suppress mood changes. Because having witnessed several periodic mood swings I would not want to face the situations I have read in Steve Deveraux's/Chris Ryan's books if a woman was having her period. There are so many jobs in the military where menstruation is trivial, why the hell the Special Forces...? Of all places...

Say what you want about this opinion of mine, I just think it would be safer if we actually were sure we were suppressing mood changes before sending them to special operations.

Treblaine:
The Normal Distribution of average female strength would mean that less women would reach requirements, not that none ever would and that there should be a ban on them even applying.

I know how statistics work and I don't see how that relates to women being smart.

But the SAS selection is a situation where you have to leave because of an injury isn't too surprising.

I mean, the bone structure of men is different than women's. Our center of gravity is closer to where the chest and shoulders are. That's why men hump stuff on their backs.

Women would be theoretically in disadvantage when it comes to the equipment they can carry on the backs, requiring more weight on the hips when they have to carry the same weight as men. It also means they will have more trouble if they have to carry a wounded man with them.

Not only that, their hips and knees are more prone to stress injuries. Sometimes in the special forces you might have to jump from an helicopter, fall from a tree, etc.

I definitely would like if the best women in the military were handpicked to participate in special forces selection, training and exercises. Just to find out if it's possible or not to allow them to apply. I think testing would be required to figure out how to handle having women dressed in the same clothing for three weeks in a row and with no hygiene capabilities.

Really? Has the US Bar association been in turmoil for decades now over female lawyers and what to do about their insanity inducing periods? No.

It has not been a problem in other professional fields like "No, this female lawyer can't be in a professional mood this week, she is on her period" that does not happen, not anywhere. That is not how periods work. Women only act like this outside of professional life because we let them get away with such attitude with "oh, she's on her period" probably because most men just don't freaking understand how the female menstruation cycle works other than a summary explanation in a biology textbook. "Affects mood" tells you nothing to what extent or how it might be controlled. What you've witnessed, how do you know it was purely biology and not just social attitudes?

Sorry to sound patronising but Women also carry bags on their back, but both men and women carry heavy bags (like Bergens) by loading as much weight onto hips, the shoulder straps being more to hold it in place and to hold up the back when the bag would slip off the hips.

Look, you have a guy wear the same clothing without washing for three weeks and he'll most likely have problems. Hygiene is

Most of the Soviet losses on the Soviet-Afghan war was inside soviet bases from poor hygiene

RC1138:

ElPatron:

I definitely would like if the best women in the military were handpicked to participate in special forces selection, training and exercises. Just to find out if it's possible or not to allow them to apply. I think testing would be required to figure out how to handle having women dressed in the same clothing for three weeks in a row and with no hygiene capabilities.

As it stands, in 2012, there is only ONE unit that allows applicants for female soldiers to join and become OPERATIONAL, that is, for example, a designated marksman, or an entry team leader, or the like, in a Special Operations Unit, and that is German KSK. So far, as of 2012, NOT ONE SINGLE woman has *ever* passed (and many have tried) the nessasary physical or mental requirements to become a member. So, as it stands, there is no place for a female soldier in a Special Operations, Operational, position.

Also, as far as, hmm, menstruation is concerned, speaking as a deployed soldier in a COED unit, there are certain hygienic that can lead to infection that women are *far* more susceptible to, and being even on a FOB this can become an issue, I cannot imagine being in the field for months at time would be any better.

The dissertation that women could function in this environment is a *disservice* to women in uniform, as you are expecting them to do something that is simply impossible (hence why it has not been done yet) and would needlessly endanger her, and anyone around her's, life. All for what? Does anyone honestly think anyone in SOCOM thinks women should NOT be in Operational Positions is because they view it as the last "boys club?" Are you that deluded?

Be specific, what are the actual problems with menstruation are so insurmountable? I don't think anyone should trust your assertion that it is "Far more susceptible" from how you have been caught exaggerating in the past. Because women HAVE served in such environments, you have been TOLD this and ignored it. The disservice is on your part ignoring what women have achieved such as in the Red Army and the Viet Cong/NLF. Impossible? More like again demonstrating your ignorance of military history outside of America. Actually Viet Cong is part of american military history, you MUST have know about this and yet still declared it impossible. Is this you being dishonest again?

Yes, "many" women have tried for positions in KSK, but still a tiny fraction of applicants are female with such high drop-out rates it's plausible that any women wouldn't pass yet. You can see why so many women would not apply from the attitude of men in the military towards women in the military. They pounce on any female disadvantage and gloat about it, it would be racist to dedicate pages and pages about how no white man has come close to win the 100m sprint in over 30 years, but then to make propose racial qualities of inclusion or exclusion in honourable professions is even worse.

As to the "boys club" thing, I think that is on the Developers of Fictional Games like the COD series. See Armed Forces around the world are actually pushing hard to get more women to volunteer, the problem is that so few apply. You must have heard that half of bachelor engineering degrees go to women now and they care about military victory in the region where their country is fighting but are put off by the attitudes of the establishment towards women.

Take the last comment/rant you had directed at me where you became so incensed at me stating that Rapists are fully culpable of their crimes and that ignorance of how "no means no" is spurious, yet you lambaste me and flash your badge ranting that I dare to contradict you in the tiniest way. Would women really like to serve in the same establishment as you? Where you get so angry at someone saying rapist have no excuse but their own callousness?

Just poking my head in to say 'fuck realism.' Because, at least for most games, realism takes a back seat to fulfilling our fantasies and titillating our senses. I.e. a soldier takes 20 bullets to the chest, only to be instantly resuscitated by a drive-by defibrillator zap? Yeah, that's realistic... So why does realism suddenly become so important when it comes to women in the military? Answer: It really, really doesn't.

I know I'll never qualify to be a commander of an intergalactic spaceship, or even a grizzled war vet sent back into battle for 'one last fight,' despite my seemingly superior gender. But modern shooters allow me to fantasize that I'm The Dude With The Gun, who's job it is to Set Things Right. It's much harder for women to make that leap into fantasy, because, well, in addition to not being space commanders, they're a whole other sex. So along with various races, I don't think it's too much to suggest that women should be able to play the same fantasies that I've been enjoying for decades now.

That is, if the character's unisex doesn't detract from the story the dev is trying to tell (lol). I don't think I have to emphasize how rare this situation is.

schwerpunk:
Just poking my head in to say 'fuck realism.' Because, at least for most games, realism takes a back seat to fulfilling our fantasies and titillating our senses. I.e. a soldier takes 20 bullets to the chest, only to be instantly resuscitated by a drive-by defibrillator zap? Yeah, that's realistic... So why does realism suddenly become so important when it comes to women in the military? Answer: It really, really doesn't.

I know I'll never qualify to be a commander of an intergalactic spaceship, or even a grizzled war vet sent back into battle for 'one last fight,' despite my seemingly superior gender. But modern shooters allow me to fantasize that I'm The Dude With The Gun, who's job it is to Set Things Right. It's much harder for women to make that leap into fantasy, because, well, in addition to not being space commanders, they're a whole other sex. So along with various races, I don't think it's too much to suggest that women should be able to play the same fantasies that I've been enjoying for decades now.

That is, if the character's unisex doesn't detract from the story the dev is trying to tell (lol). I don't think I have to emphasize how rare this situation is.

There is a big difference between suspending realism for sake of game mechanics (health, jumping, certain physics changes, "convinueum" substances) and depictions of reality. Mind you I am not against women in FPS's in general, just this one genre. I still hold BioShock makes more sense in the player-character is female (think about it, "chains" being released, women in Rapture almost always being subservient to men (even the PC's mother is a note of this), so the player characters rise to power and freedom can be symbolic of women in this time (1950-ish) as a whole).

However in the Modern Setting FPSs, which seek, as a rule, to within reason depict modern combat of Special Operations units, would be sacrificing that very aspect and as such, it's place in it's own genre, by placing women in these roles they simply do not hold in reality.

Treblaine:
Really? Has the US Bar association been in turmoil for decades now over female lawyers and what to do about their insanity inducing periods? No.

Because female layers have to be shot at, lay in filth, blood and Jebus knows what to escape capture, face physical torture or even rape, and take life-or-death decisions like weather or not obey the orders of a person she doesn't like.

Periods don't make women go insane. War does.

Treblaine:
It has not been a problem in other professional fields like "No, this female lawyer can't be in a professional mood this week, she is on her period" that does not happen, not anywhere. That is not how periods work. Women only act like this outside of professional life

Yadda yadda yadda no matter how bad being a lawyer can be, it's not being a special operative.

When you have to be on your job 24/7 during an operation and your comrades become your family and friends, things get personal.

Treblaine:
Sorry to sound patronising but Women also carry bags on their back,

Point successfully misunderstood.

Treblaine:
but both men and women carry heavy bags (like Bergens) by loading as much weight onto hips, the shoulder straps being more to hold it in place and to hold up the back when the bag would slip off the hips.

Which applies to normal light infantry, where people distribute their load because they can.

In a 4-man operation, what if the women have to carry not only the bergen, but also a light machine gun and several hundred rounds? Or even the radio/satellite thingy?

The problem is not the bergen. Women have climbed mountains before. The problem is the added shit.

Treblaine:
Look, you have a guy wear the same clothing without washing for three weeks and he'll most likely have problems.

Guys don't need tampons.

Heck, no way in a special operation would women be allowed to ditch used tampons or cloth pads. They would have to put them in bags and hump them around.

And shit, the smell gets worse when you don't throw them away. I've heard real horror stories about used pads hidden in barracks.

It's enough for a human to track the scent, forget the dogs.

ElPatron:

Treblaine:
Really? Has the US Bar association been in turmoil for decades now over female lawyers and what to do about their insanity inducing periods? No.

Because female layers have to be shot at, lay in filth, blood and Jebus knows what to escape capture, face physical torture or even rape, and take life-or-death decisions like weather or not obey the orders of a person she doesn't like.

Periods don't make women go insane. War does.

Treblaine:
It has not been a problem in other professional fields like "No, this female lawyer can't be in a professional mood this week, she is on her period" that does not happen, not anywhere. That is not how periods work. Women only act like this outside of professional life

Yadda yadda yadda no matter how bad being a lawyer can be, it's not being a special operative.

When you have to be on your job 24/7 during an operation and your comrades become your family and friends, things get personal.

Treblaine:
Sorry to sound patronising but Women also carry bags on their back,

Point successfully misunderstood.

Treblaine:
but both men and women carry heavy bags (like Bergens) by loading as much weight onto hips, the shoulder straps being more to hold it in place and to hold up the back when the bag would slip off the hips.

Which applies to normal light infantry, where people distribute their load because they can.

In a 4-man operation, what if the women have to carry not only the bergen, but also a light machine gun and several hundred rounds? Or even the radio/satellite thingy?

The problem is not the bergen. Women have climbed mountains before. The problem is the added shit.

Treblaine:
Look, you have a guy wear the same clothing without washing for three weeks and he'll most likely have problems.

Guys don't need tampons.

Heck, no way in a special operation would women be allowed to ditch used tampons or cloth pads. They would have to put them in bags and hump them around.

And shit, the smell gets worse when you don't throw them away. I've heard real horror stories about used pads hidden in barracks.

It's enough for a human to track the scent, forget the dogs.

Horrific fact: guys can and do get raped and it isn't any easier for them than for women. Rape is an extremely common form of torture in war for both males and females.

My point with lawyering is a matter of COMPARISON between men and women, in such roles women are not less professional. You raised the issue of professionalism because women might get "moody" on their period. And it's a good thing no man has ever lost their temper in any armed force in the world (sarcasm). Oh no, wait, they have. It is in fact extremely common and practically expected for people to not be all sunshine and happiness. Men go through mood changes as well, only far less predictable.

If war makes people go insane, not periods, then it's a zero sum difference between men and women. You seem to have dropped this point.

"Women have climbed mountains before."

Yes and with all the shit that you need to climb a mountain like oxygen canisters, pick-axes, rope and radios.

"what if the women have to carry not only the bergen, but also a light machine gun and several hundred rounds?"

Then they carry the gun with their arms with the bergen on their back and the 200-round box underneath the weapon. A light machine gun like this are in widespread use:

image

Weighs 5.75 kilograms, can feed from a 200-round continuous belt. That's not insurmountable. My dear mother who is 52 year old and a mere 4 foot 11 inches tall I know lifts 5kg weights in-each-hand in just aerobic exercises, lifting up above her head for 20 reps.

"Heck, no way in a special operation would women be allowed to ditch used tampons or cloth pads. They would have to put them in bags and hump them around."

image

You know special forces aren't allowed to dump ANYTHING... including their dumps. Yes, you focus so much on how women might occasionally need to put a tampon in a ziplock bag and "hump it" but didn't occur to you that if they couldn't discard tampons then neither male nor female could discard even their poop.

Yes it's true, consult the Biographies of Andy McNab and Chris Ryan (good reading) of their time in the SAS, they corroborate how they would carry their own food and water but shit into ziplock bags and carry EVERYTHING with them. One or two tampons a month are truly trivial compared to filling a ziplock bag full of shit every day. And their piss as well. As they empty one water bottle they'd then use it to collect their piss. Don't drink from the wrong bottle! I have already informed you that sniffer dogs don't depend on sniffing for poop or used tampons in ziplock bags, they track the scent of human sweat, you cannot disguise this, you are constantly emitting it.

My problem is not that you haven't read a particular book. It's just so obvious you aren't following the facts, you are working back from your conclusion in a completely narrow minded way. You aren't thinking about the needs of the military and how women might be incompatible, you have decided women are incompatible and looking for problems without relevance. Tampons. Only women need them, therefore it's an insurmountable problem.

Humping the weight isn't a problem. They carried the tampon in a pocket, then in them, then in a ziplock bag. Same with poop. They carry the food in their bergen, then in their body then comes out as poop and they keep carrying it. The point is they don't discard any mass. Because THAT is easier to track, as THAT is what tracking is, looking for things they have left along the way like discarded food, poop or rubbish.

Treblaine:
Horrific fact: guys can and do get raped and it isn't any easier for them than for women. Rape is an extremely common form of torture in war for both males and females.

Still doesn't explain how being a lawyer is comparable to being in the special forces.

Treblaine:
My point with lawyering is a matter of COMPARISON between men and women, in such roles women are not less professional. You raised the issue of professionalism because women might get "moody" on their period. And it's a good thing no man has ever lost their temper in any armed force in the world (sarcasm). Oh no, wait, they have. It is in fact extremely common and practically expected for people to not be all sunshine and happiness. Men go through mood changes as well, only far less predictable.

Which is why the selection serves as a way to find who breaks under pressure.

Treblaine:
If war makes people go insane, not periods, then it's a zero sum difference between men and women. You seem to have dropped this point.

I am being >implied like a mo-fo here, so I'll gladly drop it now.

Treblaine:
Then they carry the gun with their arms with the bergen on their back and the 200-round box underneath the weapon. A light machine gun like this are in widespread use:

Weighs 5.75 kilograms, can feed from a 200-round continuous belt. That's not insurmountable. My dear mother who is 52 year old and a mere 4 foot 11 inches tall I know lifts 5kg weights in-each-hand in just aerobic exercises, lifting up above her head for 20 reps.

You do realize that there is the possibility of carrying more than 200 rounds, right?

And I don't understand the connection between aerobic exercise with 10kg and carrying a bergen, mountain climbing equipment, a weapon and hundreds of rounds and possibly a wounded man... when you're more prone to injury.

Treblaine:
You know special forces aren't allowed to dump ANYTHING... including their dumps. Yes, you focus so much on how women might occasionally need to put a tampon in a ziplock bag and "hump it" but didn't occur to you that if they couldn't discard tampons then neither male nor female could discard even their poop.

It did occur to me. I am just used to piss and crap.

Treblaine:
Yes it's true, consult the Biographies of Andy McNab and Chris Ryan (good reading) of their time in the SAS

Never read Andy McNab, I have a few Chris Ryan books. Never read their biographies.

Treblaine:
I have already informed you that sniffer dogs

I said humans, though. Both men and women can detect the smell of women on their period.

And I am pretty much aware that tampons do not pose a problem with added bulk or weight. They have to be carried unused into the operation.

I am more concerned with the need of knowing more about human behavior before sending people into operations with fingers crossed, hoping it works.

EDIT: Yes, it's also possible for the strain caused by Special Forces work to suppress the menstruation. But honestly I never heard anything about the effects of such a thing.

ElPatron:

Treblaine:
Horrific fact: guys can and do get raped and it isn't any easier for them than for women. Rape is an extremely common form of torture in war for both males and females.

Still doesn't explain how being a lawyer is comparable to being in the special forces.

Treblaine:
My point with lawyering is a matter of COMPARISON between men and women, in such roles women are not less professional. You raised the issue of professionalism because women might get "moody" on their period. And it's a good thing no man has ever lost their temper in any armed force in the world (sarcasm). Oh no, wait, they have. It is in fact extremely common and practically expected for people to not be all sunshine and happiness. Men go through mood changes as well, only far less predictable.

Which is why the selection serves as a way to find who breaks under pressure.

Treblaine:
If war makes people go insane, not periods, then it's a zero sum difference between men and women. You seem to have dropped this point.

I am being >implied like a mo-fo here, so I'll gladly drop it now.

Treblaine:
Then they carry the gun with their arms with the bergen on their back and the 200-round box underneath the weapon. A light machine gun like this are in widespread use:

Weighs 5.75 kilograms, can feed from a 200-round continuous belt. That's not insurmountable. My dear mother who is 52 year old and a mere 4 foot 11 inches tall I know lifts 5kg weights in-each-hand in just aerobic exercises, lifting up above her head for 20 reps.

You do realize that there is the possibility of carrying more than 200 rounds, right?

And I don't understand the connection between aerobic exercise with 10kg and carrying a bergen, mountain climbing equipment, a weapon and hundreds of rounds and possibly a wounded man... when you're more prone to injury.

Treblaine:
You know special forces aren't allowed to dump ANYTHING... including their dumps. Yes, you focus so much on how women might occasionally need to put a tampon in a ziplock bag and "hump it" but didn't occur to you that if they couldn't discard tampons then neither male nor female could discard even their poop.

It did occur to me. I am just used to piss and crap.

Treblaine:
Yes it's true, consult the Biographies of Andy McNab and Chris Ryan (good reading) of their time in the SAS

Never read Andy McNab, I have a few Chris Ryan books. Never read their biographies.

Treblaine:
I have already informed you that sniffer dogs

I said humans, though. Both men and women can detect the smell of women on their period.

And I am pretty much aware that tampons do not pose a problem with added bulk or weight. They have to be carried unused into the operation.

I am more concerned with the need of knowing more about human behavior before sending people into operations with fingers crossed, hoping it works.

Implying beats your accusations. I made clear that I mentioned lawyering was just one of many examples where women have proven professional conduct.

The whole point of a machine gun like Mk46 Mod 0 is you keep all the ammunition on one 200 round belt. You did say "hundreds of rounds". There aren't any ammo boxes for Mk46 Mod 0 of larger capacity than 200 rounds. Part of the weight of a bergen is extra ammunition.

I mention a woman who is of very small stature, well over age for combat service and without military training easily handling 10kg not is strength training THAT is the point of my comparison, do I have to explain everything to you. Well I don't have to, I think you understand but you are jsut playing dumb when it's convenient for you.

As to human behaviour in combat, that's a hard to predict factor with both men and women.

You claim you can smell if a woman is on her period. That just fucking weird. (The week old bags of shit are probably going to be a bigger factor in smell)

Treblaine:
Implying beats your accusations.

Not exactly. You're were implying different things about my statements. Like when you implied that I think that periods make people go insane.

It simply wears me down mentally until I just forget about it and start ignoring it.

Treblaine:
I made clear that I mentioned lawyering was just one of many examples where women have proven professional conduct.

But what other job is comparable special forces? Not even the police work can be that demanding.

Treblaine:
The whole point of a machine gun like Mk46 Mod 0 is you keep all the ammunition on one 200 round belt. You did say "hundreds of rounds". There aren't any ammo boxes for Mk46 Mod 0 of larger capacity than 200 rounds. Part of the weight of a bergen is extra ammunition.

>implying that boxes are the only ways of feeding a LMG
>implying extra ammo can't be brought in a spare linked belt
>implying nobody carries loose ammo to refill magazines

Treblaine:
I mention a woman who is of very small stature, well over age for combat service and without military training easily handling 10kg not is strength training THAT is the point of my comparison, do I have to explain everything to you. Well I don't have to, I think you understand but you are jsut playing dumb when it's convenient for you.

Easily handling 10 kgs for what? 16 hours a day for a week? While walking trough a jungle or climbing a mountain?

If you feel I am playing dumb then please ignore me. But the fact is that I am not. I honestly do not believe how anaerobic exercise disproves what I said about strength. Specially after we talked about endurance and smoking, etc.

Treblaine:
As to human behaviour in combat, that's a hard to predict factor with both men and women.

So I think we all agree that we should probably study female behavior in the special forces before throwing them into operations.

Like I have been saying for the previous posts.

Treblaine:
You claim you can smell if a woman is on her period. That just fucking weird. (The week old bags of shit are probably going to be a bigger factor in smell)

I can't do that. I have an ex-girlfriend who told me she is able to detect that. I honestly never felt the need to ask other women/girls but I bet she's not the only one.

But give it a few days. Anyone will feel it. Seriously, I have no idea how you could perform the experience by yourself and honestly I don't wish anyone to try it. But it's fucking horrible, and it's worse than piss. Or crap.

I mean, MRE's actually prevent you from crapping. Which is why you shouldn't make a diet out of them.

ElPatron:

Treblaine:
Implying beats your accusations.

Not exactly. You're were implying different things about my statements. Like when you implied that I think that periods make people go insane.

It simply wears me down mentally until I just forget about it and start ignoring it.

Treblaine:
I made clear that I mentioned lawyering was just one of many examples where women have proven professional conduct.

But what other job is comparable special forces? Not even the police work can be that demanding.

Treblaine:
The whole point of a machine gun like Mk46 Mod 0 is you keep all the ammunition on one 200 round belt. You did say "hundreds of rounds". There aren't any ammo boxes for Mk46 Mod 0 of larger capacity than 200 rounds. Part of the weight of a bergen is extra ammunition.

>implying that boxes are the only ways of feeding a LMG
>implying extra ammo can't be brought in a spare linked belt
>implying nobody carries loose ammo to refill magazines

Treblaine:
I mention a woman who is of very small stature, well over age for combat service and without military training easily handling 10kg not is strength training THAT is the point of my comparison, do I have to explain everything to you. Well I don't have to, I think you understand but you are jsut playing dumb when it's convenient for you.

Easily handling 10 kgs for what? 16 hours a day for a week? While walking trough a jungle or climbing a mountain?

If you feel I am playing dumb then please ignore me. But the fact is that I am not. I honestly do not believe how anaerobic exercise disproves what I said about strength. Specially after we talked about endurance and smoking, etc.

Treblaine:
As to human behaviour in combat, that's a hard to predict factor with both men and women.

So I think we all agree that we should probably study female behavior in the special forces before throwing them into operations.

Like I have been saying for the previous posts.

Treblaine:
You claim you can smell if a woman is on her period. That just fucking weird. (The week old bags of shit are probably going to be a bigger factor in smell)

I can't do that. I have an ex-girlfriend who told me she is able to detect that. I honestly never felt the need to ask other women/girls but I bet she's not the only one.

But give it a few days. Anyone will feel it. Seriously, I have no idea how you could perform the experience by yourself and honestly I don't wish anyone to try it. But it's fucking horrible, and it's worse than piss. Or crap.

I mean, MRE's actually prevent you from crapping. Which is why you shouldn't make a diet out of them.

An example of lying:
Like when you implied that I think that periods make people go insane.

yeah that's not true at the very least, who knows if you are deliberately lying or just very very confused but either way you have slandered me.

This "implying" is just cheap application of straw-man fallacy. Is my argument to sound? well change my argument into something else by claiming that I "implied" simply because I didn't mention.

BTW, that particular Light Machine Gun can only be fed from a belt of ammunition that must be held in a box/bag attached underneath the weapon.
I never implied there wouldn't be other ammo, I actually said "Part of the weight of a bergen is extra ammunition."
I never said anything about loose ammo being used or not used to refill loose magazines but that there is no reason why they necessarily should.

Aerobic exercise is intensity BELOW strength training, it's an indication of sustainability. The Machine gun would be on a sling you wouldn't have to hold it above your head for 16 hours. You want an example of a woman carrying something that weighs around 7kg with ease? I can't think of anyone who regularly carries something of 7kg weight whether male or female but 7kg is not "Hurr impossibly heavy no woman can carry".

How can we study women in special forces with RC1138 saying they shouldn't even be allowed to apply and is happy that they currently aren't admitted.

Your girlfriend could be either bullshitting you or bullshitting herself about period smelling. How does she know she isn't just imagining things, it's not like she can easily confirm if she is right or wrong. You definitely can't track people through the wilderness from that, or are you saying your girlfriend can just tell "someone around here is on their period, close, within 20 metres... that way!". That's not me Implying, that is me saying that cannot be the case but it must be to be relevant.

MRE's don't prevent you from crapping nor even reduce it. They tend to be very low in fibre which plays havoc on healthy toilet time with constipation then the runs.

Treblaine:

An example of lying:
Like when you implied that I think that periods make people go insane.

yeah that's not true at the very least, who knows if you are deliberately lying or just very very confused but either way you have slandered me.

Treblaine:
Really? Has the US Bar association been in turmoil for decades now over female lawyers and what to do about their insanity inducing periods? No.

Case in point.

Treblaine:
BTW, that particular Light Machine Gun can only be fed from a belt of ammunition that must be held in a box/bag attached underneath the weapon.

It's just that I have seen pictures of them being fed by loose linked belts. Not saying it's the right way to do it.

Treblaine:
Aerobic exercise is intensity BELOW strength training, it's an indication of sustainability.

Okay, I must be definitely playing stupid because so far you haven't missed an opportunity to fill your posts with knowledge.

I had PE classes too. With written exams, for some reason. I know what aerobic is. And I that slings cause the weight to be distributed.

Treblaine:
How can we study women in special forces with RC1138 saying they shouldn't even be allowed to apply and is happy that they currently aren't admitted.

I don't know. Do we really have to send them to be able to study?

Treblaine:
Your girlfriend could be either bullshitting you or bullshitting herself about period smelling. How does she know she isn't just imagining things, it's not like she can easily confirm if she is right or wrong.

Ex.

Come on, I can accept if she bullshitted me. But I can't believe that half of the internet is lying to me. People have reported differences in skin odor - it's that subtle.

However I was talking about the smell of used up hygiene material. Not even plastic bags can save others from the stench.

Not even dogs will pinpoint the position of a human based on a trail of smell. No need to add words to my posts. Just like a spent casing or a bag of poo would prove that there has been human activity, it wouldn't directly pinpoint the position of enemies.

Treblaine:
MRE's don't prevent you from crapping nor even reduce it

Ahah I know it doesn't reduce it.

So, back on topic, if a woman wants to play Battlefield 3 as her own gender, then she's out of luck? As always, this feature is up to the dev's discretion to include, but more to the point: Is not being able to play as a woman in a military FPS preferable, for reasons of immersion?

Realism seems like such a weak excuse to exclude a growing demographic within gaming. Even if it's granted that it's unlikely that a woman would ever be hired to work for special forces irl.

It really sucks watching your girlfriend get all excited about a new shooter, only to have her hopes dashed when it turns out that the protagonist is gender locked. It's made me realize just how few shooters, and games in general, allow for women avatars.

I'm not sure I can convey exactly how much this sucks. :(

Well, I guess killing manly dudes is kind of standard now, but when it comes to killing woman, people still cringe at that. You know, in a CoD match, someone out there might feel uncomfortable about tossing a grenade at a woman who's reloading her gun. But obviously, this is not the developer's fault. We've seen women die and be killed by us many times before (Dragon Age comes to mind, I don't know why). It's more, like Jim said, about the public, and by that I mean men, being uncomfortable playing online with a bunch of chicks and getting their ass kicked, or more about wanting to protect the girl because she doesn't have a penis. We're getting past that little by little, though (See: All FPS games that have already dipped their toe in that pond).

But it would be an interesting idea to see a girl rescue a guy in a mission, or maybe have a new healer class that can be taken by both men and women, or maybe choose the gender of your "Ghost". Why not? It's not like their manliness or their genitalia affect the plot directly. I can see why most girls shy away from FPS, what with only guys playing those games for the most part and male-only characters and your random sexist prick here and there. And it is no surprise most girls prefer RPGs, what with the customizable character and quests that force you to play together and think before acting and the gender/race variety.

And yeah, I know. "But women are not sent to the battlefield in real life!". Yeah, well, we also don't have chainsaw guns or space marines in real life. So there's that.

Off topic: I was playing Left 4 Dead today and I realized every single player on the team was a girl. Random girls, not like they knew each other or something. They all had a headset and, yeah, they squealed when a Tank attacked us or a Witch showed up but for the most part, we played amazingly well. They communicated, they looked after each other, they worked as a team and they were nice in the sense that they weren't pricks or had the mouth of a 6 year old who just heard his big brother say a bad word. When I play with random guys, either they ditch me or they kill me for fun or they only look after themselves (Hey, I'm all up for that, but you can't really win that game on your own. It's not built that way). So hooray for being more open minded towards women and gaming.

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