Jimquisition: Let's End the FPS Sausage-fest

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Terminate421:
You forgot Halo! Look at the difference between Spartans!

Female:
image

Male:
image

..........................WHAT DIFFERENCE?!?!?!?

Lord_Gremlin:
Funny how old games like Unreal, Aliens vs. Predator 2 etc. had female characters in multiplayer... Modern games are a step down in many directions. Look at Duke Nukem 3D level design for example.

Games have become about cutting as many corners. the relative cheapness of the FPS is one of the reasons it is so prevalent.

So it's no shock it trickles down to the naughty bits.

Ariseishirou:
Speaking as a woman who likes shooters, I agree. It would be nice to have the option, at least. And the lack of a female option has led me to not buy at least one game. (Brink - because seriously? Over a quadrillion customization options and not one of them is female? Because it would have cut down on the options available? Could you not have not half a quadrillion male options instead? I don't think anyone would have been unsatisfied.)

That's also a more general problem. People always look at someone else being given an option as them having an option taken away.

Bato:
Why is it a thing that women have to be petite and short?
They have body sizes that differ as much as men do, sure they have less natural muscle than men do, but that doesn't mean they all have the physique of a 16 year old with two watermelons duct taped to them.

To be fair, a 6' woman is up there on the curve.

Then again, in games populated by hulking refigerators of men, I think the argument that there are too many tall women is kind of...What's the word I'm looking for...Ridiculous.

Bobic:

While that was the example I was thinking of, I can't get past the fact that it's throwing up an easy target for the militant feminist, who will no doubt point out that the fact that the one female's sole purpose is to be rescued isn't all that much of a step forward.

Still, a woman in CoD is a woman in CoD.

Is she playable in either single player or multiplayer? Because that's the crux of the issue here. Jim may have started with the lead-in that you might think women don't exist, but the main thrust here is less about NPCs and the like.

Also, if you think that's "militant feminism," I think you're using both of those words wrong.

I'd say that gender equality is still as big a problem in games as is racial equality. While progress has certainly been made over the years, more often than not games are a sausage fest of white men (with varying degrees of muscles and ruggedness) with only the odd token woman and/or minority, usually in just a minor support role or comedy sidekick.

Personally I'm all for seeing more female characters in games and any reason not to is just BS or laziness on the part of the developer. After all if Valve has all that free time on their hands to make 50 million stupid hats for TF2 why not make some playable female versions of each class?

@ the all female FPS: Please no. Because there is no way you can convince me that there is a company out there right now with:
A. the necessary personnel, experience, and funding to make it properly
B. a solid enough marketing team to avoid it becoming Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball: Guns edition
and
C. the perspective to realize that female main characters doesn't mean it needs to be 'girly'

I'm not saying the game concept is flawed. I'd like to see such a game if it could be done well, but I don't have enough faith in any specific game company right now to believe it could actually happen, and if it isn't a financial success you'll end up taking a step backwards instead of forwards.

Ok I'm going to have nightmares tonight about Jim in drag. X(

Well, Halo is the only FPS series wich I can think of having equal number of gender.

Also, Jim with boobs...
image

Don't read me wrong, I want to see a grungy FPS integrate female avatars.

I'm just explaining the logic, with my own logic, that entails why people wouldn't want to see it.

It irks me too, guys. It really does. I've explained that, like, three times now. Shooting a realistic female in a realistic game (read: Not Saints Row 3.).

On that same note, I'm not gonna hide behind the fact that it 'costs more to develop female characters and male characters' and 'balancing issues'. It's okay to be a softie. It's less okay to nitpick something so frivolous to hide it.

But no matter how much it irks me, I want to see it happen, because after enough traumatizing myself, it'll irk me less.

Still, I'll explain one more time. It's not shooting females that people don't like. Or killing females, for that matter. If that was the case, we'd see alot more complaints about that in games like League of Legends. It's about the realism of it all. As games start to blur the lines between fantasy and reality, and truly immerse you (I've fucking jumped irl when a grenade went off next to me in BF3 in a firefight), actually, fuck finishing my thought, I'll just leave it at that. Take that thought, and apply it to females in multiplayer.

sideshow:

Terminate421:
You forgot Halo! Look at the difference between Spartans!

Female:
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/110/1100653/halo-reach-20100621020443589-000.jpg

Male:
http://www.gamerdna.com/public/images/user_image/set201/image/201809/playermodel.ashx.png?1225157443

..........................WHAT DIFFERENCE?!?!?!?

Kind of the point - those two models are ALMOST the same (female has a slightly slimmer hip and bit sexier butt - but that's only noticable when they are next to each other in idle).

Worgen:

Bobic:

Kitsune Hunter:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe

While that was the example I was thinking of, I can't get past the fact that it's throwing up an easy target for the militant feminist, who will no doubt point out that the fact that the one female's sole purpose is to be rescued isn't all that much of a step forward.

Still, a woman in CoD is a woman in CoD.

Militant Feminist... now there is a strange term, is that a feminist who is in the military or one that enforces gender equality with a gun and doesn't take shit from anyone?

The second one, though the gun is considerably more metaphorical than your description makes it seem. Basically, anyone who shoves the argument down your throat when it isn't needed. I thought it was a common term. One separating the average feminist (good) from the raving nutjob feminist (bad). But anyway, read below and you'll see the true meaning behind my statement! Are you excited?

Zachary Amaranth:

Bobic:

While that was the example I was thinking of, I can't get past the fact that it's throwing up an easy target for the militant feminist, who will no doubt point out that the fact that the one female's sole purpose is to be rescued isn't all that much of a step forward.

Still, a woman in CoD is a woman in CoD.

Is she playable in either single player or multiplayer? Because that's the crux of the issue here. Jim may have started with the lead-in that you might think women don't exist, but the main thrust here is less about NPCs and the like.

Also, if you think that's "militant feminism," I think you're using both of those words wrong.

I'd say picking a fight about it over the internet would be pretty militant. Anyway, I was just being ironic, if you didn't guess (which is fair enough, I could/should have been more obvious), I was the militant feminist, and that was the flaw that I came up with against my own argument that there was a woman in the armed forces (briefly) in CoD.

cervie:

Metalix Knightmare:
Jim, I will pay you ALL of the money to never dress like a lady again.

ALL of it.

For shame, it wasn't that bad... Watch some Eddie Izzard, sir, you'll get over it.

Eddie Izzard doesn't look that bad. At least not next to Matt Dillahunty.

I run into the situation all the time with certain games where (as a male) I still want to use a female avatar rather than male. It boils down to choice. Limiting options is bull****. One of my worst offenders is the WWE Smackdown franchise. Here's how it's been setup:

2000-2004: An "Unknown" gender option was available to allow female avatars to win championships or participate in story modes.

2005 - Unknown Gender was stripped, meaning no more season modes. I started creating more female wrestlers than males at the time, so it was really annoying.

2006-2007: Games were now designed that females wouldn't even be allowed in Royal Rumbles, Six-Person Tags, Hardcore, Cage, Hell in a Cell, etc. One year, they even added a "Lingerie Pillow Fight" match. It was the worst match design ever (aside of Inferno Matches).

2008: Female Wrestlers weren't even programmed to use weapons...even though the game had a weapon damage stat in the game. I had to physically hand a female a weapon just so they would use it.

2009-2010: Women could now abuse weapons and participate in hardcore matches again...thank god. Still no 6-person matches. The excuse was that it takes more space to add women into the matches. What they don't mention is how a 4-person match WITH 2 managers outside the ring is perfectly fine.

2011-2012: Right around this time, I started creating females only. The reason this came about was I had no desire to create males anymore. Males and females were restricted to fighting their specific gender; no male v. female matches. I also noticed that unlike 2010, there were caps on certain stat bases. 2010 allowed every character to be 100 provided you build them that way (once again, the CHOICE is there). Here was the disparity.

Grapple Sttength: 75
Strike Strength: 85
Submission: 90...the hell?

Everything else was allowed to go to 100. Say you wanted to create a true amazon, 7 feet, 300 pound steroid woman. Those same restrictions applied. It's stupid how early in the series, they didn't care. Now, it's taboo to have "super females." I'm more concerned about balancing issues than anything else. I've had to dumb down my characters (stripping 5 points from an overall of 80-100) just to balance character strengths. I shouldn't have to do that.

I know this example was not an FPS, but gender exclusion isn't tied only to FPS.

Yeah put women in FPS games and then we will get "Video games training boys to shoot woman for fun" in all the news headlines which gaming doesn't need AT ALL.

Scrustle:

dantoddd:

Scrustle:
The arguments people use to justify not having female characters in games are so flimsy, and none of them really have anything to do with women specifically. All the arguments they use could be used to make an all-female filled game.

Actually, that would be really interesting to see. Unless it's something like DoA. I mean a game like an FPS (something typically male and "gritty" or "badass") except everyone is a woman, and not sexualised. Maybe there could be some plot about some future virus that latches on to the Y chromosome and completely debilitates the carrier, thus forcing females to fill all roles of society. The plot could be focused around trying to find a cure. That could be really interesting.

Oh and Jim, you look so sexy. Just like in my dream last night.

Good luck convincing anyone to fund that. This is the biggest problem really. FPS games cost alot of money. and if i'm going to invest 10-50 mn USD you better convince me that this game will not turn off or piss off the core demographic of FPS gamers, angry 15-30 year old virgin males.

Doesn't necessarily have to be an FPS, just a game where the female characters are portrayed as being strong and capable, and not being objectified or being nothing but eye-candy.

The next tomb raider seems to be a promising game in this regard. Beyond good and Evil 2 is in the works, that will have an awesome female character. But like you said we really need some new IP's with interesting lead female characters

Kitsune Hunter:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe

MatParker116:
To be fair to MW,BF and MOH most Western Special Forces unit's don't allow women to try out, outside of Delta Force's "Funny Platoon" and some British Intelligence unit's. Also how it is that Halo: Reach (Kat, Six can be female) is the most gender equal FPS I can think of?

OK, valid points. But let's look at the sequel, Modern Warfare 2:

1) There are many women active in the U.S. military right now in a variety of areas and levels of authority barring the highest levels.

2) All receive basic training even though they're not sent to the front lines.

3) Even if they're not placed in combat roles, some still see combat because in many of the current conflicts the U.S. military finds itself in, both the front lines and rear echelon support can be targeted by the enemy.

4) The only women in Modern Warfare 2's campaign are civilians in the airport during "No Russian", i.e., victims.

5) This despite the fact that later on in the game, the United States itself is invaded by the Russians and the U.S. capital is under attack for the first time in 200 years, and not one female soldier can be seen in the background aiding in the defense or even providing any kind of support. I'm not sure what Infinity Ward is trying to say about female American soldiers, because when the Russians were invaded 70 years ago, Soviet women fought and died.

(But let's be fair and point out the Western Allies sent women on dangerous missions as well.)

Bindal:

sideshow:

Terminate421:
You forgot Halo! Look at the difference between Spartans!

Female:
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/110/1100653/halo-reach-20100621020443589-000.jpg

Male:
http://www.gamerdna.com/public/images/user_image/set201/image/201809/playermodel.ashx.png?1225157443

..........................WHAT DIFFERENCE?!?!?!?

Kind of the point - those two models are ALMOST the same (female has a slightly slimmer hip and bit sexier butt - but that's only noticable when they are next to each other in idle).

sorry, at time of writing (and even now) i'm tired as all hell (its 2:12am atm) so i've interpenetrated this wrong. person who originally wrote that comment had a good point. my bad

Great idea so now the next CoD may get its shocker from showing female soldiers getting raped.
And didn't Sony back down from showing violence against women in GoW cause it may offend people clearly not the target audience?

Fuck Cameron I'm with Heinlein.

Huh so Jim is a woman now...and a sexy one at that!

This made me happy. Thanks Jim.

Yup. It sucks to have to play dudes when you aren't one. It's not that you're playing a dude, so much, it's that you have to, because they didn't give you any other option. My fiancÚ knows I have 'dibs' on any female toons when a game has them, because there are usually only a few and they are mine because I have spent years and years and years in a male avatar across so many titles that when the option to play my own gender comes up, I'm doing it. Even though that sometimes forces me to play character types I wouldn't normally favor, if they are the girl, that's me. It's a little ridiculous that we're still in this situation, as players, where we have to scavenge for our own gendered toons.

I'm a guy who prefers to play as female characters where possible... what does that say about my gender role?

I said everything I wanted to say about the Colonial Marines problem in a previous thread when this came up before, so instead I'll just echo Jim's wizened words as usual.

I'll be blunt, we are not looking at this issue in the right angle. Jim's points are valid but the sad truth is that that it's not about historical accuracy, or even present day accuracy with women in the military, the reason women are excluded is because of one thing: Men are disposable.

Think about this for a few, who has died more in wars between sexes? Men. Who is forced to sign up for selective services (in the U.S)? Men. Who are more enlisted? Men? Seeing the pattern here?

It is a cultural issue why women are not included video games, nothing more. Remember Poison from the game Final Fight? Originally she was a woman, but in the US she was just a guy who looked like a woman. Why the hell would they do this? Because in our society, we don't like women getting their asses handed to them. We don't like seeing women get their head blown off, ripped apart, melt in acid, set on fire, have numerous spider eggs hatch in their bodies to explode all over the skin. We do not like women to get hurt, this is in reflection of just how games are.

Men are always off to rescue the princess. This is such a common trope, yet most don't look deeper into why. Some would assume it's to reinforce stereotypes that women should know their place, but what if there was a different reason? What if the reason we reinforce such a trope and accept it, is because we believe women are unable to handle themselves in combat? That women are more likely to die then men when it comes down to it. What if a woman dying actually meant more of a loss than a man dying?

We actual do this, we have placed the value of women higher than men. Women can breed children, men can not. So logically our forefathers would ensure the protection of the sex that can make kids compared to the sex that just sticks some sperm, and call it a day. That does not mean this idea or tradition is fine, it isn't.

Men have been raised under this ideal that men go to war, fight, defend, and sacrifice their lives for the cause. This has changed in the last 50 years. Men don't have to go to war, they don't have to sacrifice their lives, or give up their resources or well being for the comfort of women, but old traditions die hard.

Jim scratched the surface of a very large iceburg of issues. Men are disposable in games because society has accepted it. Society has accepted it because they were told to accept it.

Twinmill5000:
https://images.nonexiste.net/popular/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/This-is-why-I-dont-like-knifing-people-in-BF3.jpeg

Look at this guy. Look at his eyes. He's almost like a puppy.

Now imagine if that guy was replaced with a in game version of this: http://i.usatoday.net/news/_photos/2011/04/24/women-soldiers-afghanistan-0I3D7RJ-x-large.jpg

I think the more pertinent point would be, 'why do we need that kind of detail in a game'. Thats going a little overboard, and sure that would stop me using melee weapons on men or women, and just used silenced guns for that kind of thing.

Kitsune Hunter:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe

Yeah that's true, but the female characters in CoD (with the exception of the Russian president's daughter in MW3) hardly stick around for very long. There still aren't any female characters (except for the previously mentioned) who fall outside the realm "bit parts" (That is to say showing up for a few seconds or having one or two lines of dialogue).

ex275w:

Come on Jim, you shouldn't have thanked God this time, thank Mother Gea, when dressing a feminist womyn, you don't need to thank a phallocentric Male God, thank a female one, for Gea's sake.

:) You're practice futility friend! God is omnipotent, and beyond comprehension. Only nothing is omnipotent and you can't see nothing. That means he, she, it, and they are all "correct" and "incorrect" pronouns to use on God. God is a woman, a man, a genderless thingy, and a group of creatures all at once and yet not at all.
<_< But I can't picture that in my head, let alone describe it.
;) So, lets just say God in lady form looks like Oprah.

Also, so we stay with the topic; Not having playable women in shooters is crap, realism is a poor excuse (especially when we have soldiers fighting unmaned four legged walking tanks), and strangely Jim is a pretty lady.

Team Fortress 2 has the Heavy and the Scout.

Any argument against scaling issues is invalid.

ex275w:

Well from what I know from religion God (with an uppercase), usually refers to the male Christian god, occasionally known as YHWH or Yahweh. While god (with a lower case) usually means gods like Zeus, Aprhodite or Artemis.
Still, he really should have referred to Gea, since apparently that's what some radical feminists do, and not referring to a explicitly female deity is misogynist and cissexist.

Why so? He's not roleplaying a radical feminist, just a (very sexy) female Jim! No reason he needs to go all radical on us =3.

...

So hot...

Hey, there was a female character in first Modern Warfare. Female NPC to be precise. Who was later to be saved by your male protagonist...


OK, maybe this wasn't a very good example.

Anywho, I was also surprised by the fact of not including female characters in Aliens: Colonial Marines multi.
I mean: no women? In game being a part of ALIEN franchise? ...Really?

ex275w:

Yet I can think of a FPS that needs no female characters and that is Team Fortress 2, a game which still plenty of women play and has tons of yaoi for some reason. It would interesting to release a Team Fortress 2 esque FPS with only women in it and see how it goes.

What about Pyro? Ok, but seriously: TF2 is set in a stereotypical, quasi 60's world, hence the lack of female mercenaries can be kinda justified.
Still, if you want play as a female character, there are some mods and custom servers which can allow you to.

PS. Speaking about TF2 - Captcha: Vicious Cycle. Now i have an idea what to do for the next hour!
PS2. Jim in drag looks surprisingly well.

WaysideMaze:

Kitsune Hunter:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe

So the only woman is an earpiece and then a damsel in distress? Kinda just proves his point. And there's still none in the online component.

As a man, I prefer to play as men in online games. That character is my avatar in the world, and playing as a girl feels wierd. So yeah I can imagine some girls would feel the same way.

Although with CoD and BF raking in the money they do with their current gaming model, I can't see them changing any time soon.

I don't know if you could say it was a "damsel in distress" scenario. Although she was a female who was in trouble, the whole COD series is full of saving or coming to the aid of fellow soldiers (most of whom are male). I think of it more like a generic mission type for a COD game where there just happens to be a woman.

OT: As noted by some other posters, context is a big factor. For modern US army-based shooters, it makes sense that there are few women in "the shit" because there are currently very limited combat roles for females. Though, it wouldn't bother me because guns know no gender.

Fantasy/SciFi shooters really depends on the franchise. I wouldn't be comfortable if some game company shoe-horned in a female Space Marine into the 40K universe (though I'd definitely welcome female characters from the Sisters of Battle or other factions). In Aliens, it's not only fitting that they're should be women, but a distinct step away from the franchise to not include them.

I think another thing that may even indirectly affect game makers is the whole sexism argument. It's been clear from recent buzz stories about Hitman, Daniel Tosh, Tropes vs. Women, etc. that issues regarding gender brings out the absolute worst of the internet (both sides) on forum posts and general discussion. Truth be told, all of the above controversies are about artistic ability. Anything done against anybody, for any reason, can be considered offensive if proper care wasn't taken in its presentation.

Developers who wish to avoid violence against women controversies (who don't know anything about how one can tastefully present violence), may choose to avoid the issue entirely by omitting female characters from their games (see also - children in any GTA game). I don't know if this has been something that has affected previous games, but we're already starting to see it with talk from the God of War developers (not that I consider omitting the more heinous of Kratos behavior as a bad thing).

Forgive me if I am wrong, but didn't Halo have some female marines?

I agree, completely. And despite being a guy, I can relate to women 100% because I'm an RPG fan. Many RPGs like to have your class choice also be your character choice, so there have been many times where I felt forced into a specific class because my class of choice is a female character, and I generally don't like playing as a female character. So yeah, granted I have to deal with it in the minority case, but I can still use that to think about how much it would suck if EVERY game pigeon-holed me like that.

It's really odd that Aliens: Colonial Marines doesn't have female characters for multi-player. Sigourney Weaver is 6 feet tall, so it would have been easy to put an accurate character model of her in the Aliens game while still keeping the same hit box size as the male characters.

I mean for all of the "realism" these games propose to present the lack of women on the battlefield is strange, considering it is the 21st century. But at the same time, the way that politics have been lately, with scapegoats and villains dominating issues (rather than the issues themselves) and all of the back peddling on so many issues we've been making it would not, in the slightest, surprise me to see a future where women are broodmares to provide soldiers to the state to go off and fight our many, pointless wars for our corporate overlords.

I suppose if you have as much "faith" in mankind as I do the very fact that colonial marines suggests that humans are even still alive a few thousand years in the future makes it utter fantasy while the aliens, cryo-sleep and other sci-fi elements are entirely plausible.

I'm not saying any of this makes any of it ok, mind you. I actually hope that having more women as main characters could lead to some new styles of narrative, rather than all of the crappy, military revenge porn we see these days. Ideally something more mature than "She almost gets raped because she's weak and pathetic and nothing like the old, ass kicking take on the character so you want to protect her and help her escape the island."

Jim makes a very believable... if ugly, woman.

Zachary Amaranth:

Lord_Gremlin:
Funny how old games like Unreal, Aliens vs. Predator 2 etc. had female characters in multiplayer... Modern games are a step down in many directions. Look at Duke Nukem 3D level design for example.

Games have become about cutting as many corners. the relative cheapness of the FPS is one of the reasons it is so prevalent.

So it's no shock it trickles down to the naughty bits.

Ariseishirou:
Speaking as a woman who likes shooters, I agree. It would be nice to have the option, at least. And the lack of a female option has led me to not buy at least one game. (Brink - because seriously? Over a quadrillion customization options and not one of them is female? Because it would have cut down on the options available? Could you not have not half a quadrillion male options instead? I don't think anyone would have been unsatisfied.)

That's also a more general problem. People always look at someone else being given an option as them having an option taken away.

Bato:
Why is it a thing that women have to be petite and short?
They have body sizes that differ as much as men do, sure they have less natural muscle than men do, but that doesn't mean they all have the physique of a 16 year old with two watermelons duct taped to them.

To be fair, a 6' woman is up there on the curve.

Then again, in games populated by hulking refigerators of men, I think the argument that there are too many tall women is kind of...What's the word I'm looking for...Ridiculous.

Bobic:

While that was the example I was thinking of, I can't get past the fact that it's throwing up an easy target for the militant feminist, who will no doubt point out that the fact that the one female's sole purpose is to be rescued isn't all that much of a step forward.

Still, a woman in CoD is a woman in CoD.

Is she playable in either single player or multiplayer? Because that's the crux of the issue here. Jim may have started with the lead-in that you might think women don't exist, but the main thrust here is less about NPCs and the like.

Also, if you think that's "militant feminism," I think you're using both of those words wrong.

Your post has got me thinking... This is such a binary discussion. Why aren't there more male characters that use to be female chacters and vise versa?

Waddles:
Forgive me if I am wrong, but didn't Halo have some female marines?

While you couldn't play female Spartan's until Halo 3 (which was odd considering they established female Spartans a bit before they released Halo CE) there was female marines in Halo 2 and so on.

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